It's not that hard. If you want valor, then add it to the end reward chest in Epic quests instead of token shards and phase out the token shard system. Then add a choice in the chain end reward and another bigger option in the saga reward.I know I did not cover everything in one post.
We are still listening - even though I often see that people think we don't. There are a lot of opinions being expressed.
By limiting it to only saga rewards you're effectively removing any reasons to take any other reward and you force players to run quests that are terrible. It doesn't take more then 2-3 lines to cover this basic point.
I won't play DDO again until they're BTA. It's your loss as I won't spend money. That seems to be the only thing that motivates Turbine since suggestions during beta or lamm testing usually goes unresponded (I take that back - in the last xpack we threw a fit because of the lackluster and terrible named loot, just to get more of it with maybe 2 good items overall. The random market destroying stuff still remained. I don't see any new permutations in the lamm random loot tables either so U20 is a complete bust).The topics I covered today were already in discussion during the design talks, some of the other details were not debated as much but will be now.
I can't answer on a change for bind type. Please be patient for the answer.
Here's an easy thing; remove shards in U20 and replace with valor. Adjust for how many quests that can drop it (all epic). So maybe 20-30 instead of the 40-50 now. Then add a feature where you can turn in shards for valor. Change the mat turn in for Cannith challenges to be Valor. Done and done. Delay 20 if you have to because at this point I don't see a lot of people wanting it anyways. I honestly don't care if it fits your schedule because it might even stop you from having 2-4 patches fixing everything broken afterwards. As for 'detriment of people enjoying'. Well that cat is out of the bag, that can of worm is already open etc. By forcing us to do sagas to do iconic and Epic Reincarnations you have already detriment-ed mine and I think a lot of peoples enjoyment. That's not a balance issue. That's a completely arbitrary feature forcing me to play quests I don't care for.I can't tell you how long twelve tokens will be the "preferred method".
I would like to see it cleaned it up as a system, consolidate the items, get the right balance, etc. But not at the detriment of people enjoying the game. ...or excluding content.
Thanks for your continued communication but can we skip the whole placeholder stuff from now on? I'm not buying it and it's always there to test the water as to what we find good or bad. Just make a realistic assessment, avoid grief and bad feelings and we'll help you adjust in good faith. You say 'trust us' and we still wait. Eventually 'we' get enough and say no mas. There are so many games out there and if it wasn't for my 'investment' in this game the last xpack would've sealed the deal for the future. I'm not prepurchasing anything else from now on. I rather miss the fluff and beta participation then to waste my hard earned money on your schemes.Thank you for continuing to give us opinions, examples of how you play are also useful feedback tools. We'll keep working on the communication flow.
I started TRing my main pretty soon after the system was introduced (there is zero chance I'd still be playing the game if the TR mechanism hadn't been introduced), and have TR'd him 20 more times since then. A few thoughts about how long it took me at the beginning vs. now to farm enough tokens for a THofW:
1) Back when epic stuff was epic (ya'll remember hold person and woo-woo sticks, and firewalling Tharashak Arena from the hidey spot?), I could earn about 5-7 tokens in a typical 3 hour play session for myself, which usually included the now fixed exploits in Partycrashers and BigTop (the fastest ones to get tokens from) as well as running von 1 on a few toons in hopes of getting a SOS scroll. I was very understanding when Turbine fixed the exploits and was not upset.
2) In general, depending on whether I was on summer/winter break or not, I would have 20 tokens and be ready to TR after 3-5 days at level 20, although I can remember spending months at cap while I ground out 20 completions for my Mary Chane, Bracers of the Glacier, Torc, Cleansing Thingies, and second SOS.
3) Today, based on my barf tolerance for killing the Crimson Devatator or how persuasive I can be in getting passes in DA, I can knock out 20 tokens in about a day, but usually spread it out over a few. So in general, I'll TR about 3 or so days after I hit level 20.
4) Thus, there is no real difference between how long it takes me to TR now vs. back in the day. My real problem is that there aren't very many things to keep me at epic levels for an extended period of time. Why am I going to grab a bunch of ML 24 or 28 stuff since after I TR, i'll have to get back up to those levels to use it again. I'm not gonna camp at Epic Levels because I have everything I want from the raids I used to run.
5) So, right now, there's not really a huge difference in how long I go between TR's. I'm pretty sure that I can run, maybe one saga every day or two, which means that it would take me a month maybe of just grinding sagas to get comms; that seems like a pretty big bad thing.
The only reason I'm level 28, is to be able to grind gear more easily in preparation for heroic TR. The build I use is best suited with a few past lives, but I find that by going completionist with a small set of classes done 3x each for max bonuses. To do this I will be TR'ing as soon as I hit 20. I will likely not hit 28 and may not go past 20 for the duration of the life of my toon.
So in order to do this, I have to empty my bank of the BtC **** that's in it and then fill it with hearts just to be able to accomplish this.
I agree with all of the other people posting here though. I think the model that you are using for the new TR system is a bunch of ****. My sub is up in December, so I still have to weigh that decision. For those of use that have spent real $$ here, have a right to be upset. I've purchased every expansion, and every expansion pack available in the store. I've purchased additional character slots, bank and inventory slots, the largest bags, raid timers a plenty (about 60 or more) and TP points out the wazoo to include the $99.00 pack, and even when the TP point cards were sold in retail stores. So when I say I'm not the least bit happy about this garbage, you can take that to the bank, because that is all Turbine will be taking to the bank if this goes live.
I will post my total dollar amount spent when I have the time to do so.
One last thing before i go to bed. We do not want to be forced to run what you want us to run. We have our own ways of doing things. We spend some of us a ton of money on this game. Stop trying to make use play your way... that will always be a hot button issue its not ok ever.
I don't even grind for tokens
I have done only a few TR's
I bought my hearts
But, this system just sounds crappy for those that do TR's on a regular basis.
This would make me even run less and play even less if I had to grind one iota for hearts
Member of Mythical
Kaarloe - Degenerate Matter - Argonnessen
Ideally, TRing shouldn't require anything beyond 20; it's a different game and the materials to do so should come from the 1-20 game. Saga's are forced gameplay - you devs might like them, but your players don't. Glin, you guys just don't get it. Between this and loot, I've completely lost confidence over $1000 later.
Good luck with your game.
Now what? Make it BoP tokens that you MUST take because you don't know if in that ridiculous amount of time it would take to gather 900+, you might wanna TR even if you didn't atm. And I mean, you also gotta set some goals, right? Why not go with the most grindy and absurd one?
And to me, the very worse is by far bringing a mechanic that is so important to the game inaccessible (grind vs sanity) or at least harder to achieve without the expansion. Turbine... why go there, you know what you did and we, as i'm sure a good bunch of the playerbase, simply want to be able to play the part of the game that we feel like without losing on such a feature as TRing. Because if we like that part of the game, most likely we also are TR monkeys and TRing is our goal at the moment.
And I agree that it shouldn't be obtainable before level 20. That if you want it for free, you should spend some "grinding" time at that level. I also understand you give away free TP with favor (which is sometimes wasted on stupid stuff though... patience + human = no). But more freedom (and of course... not hundreds of quests please) as to chose where that time can be spent is a simple idea that leaves place to imagination... which I'm sure your marketting guys/progs are full of. They just need to use the force once in a while and drop the dark side here and there.
Last edited by Azarddoze; 10-21-2013 at 09:44 PM.
Kal Vas Flam... Corp Por... Corp Por
...And then there was silence
* The saga system serves to force you to play only the new quests that are in sagas. You've effectively depreciated all "old" epics that are not in sagas for the TR players. Personally I hate a good number of the quests out of MotU and Shadowfell, and the classic favorites with VONs, Sands, House P, House D, Challenges etc will essentially be worthless. You're turning sagas from a nice extra perk to forced gameplay. *thumbs down*
* BtC vs BtA... If you're going to FORCE me to run certain quests until I pass out at least let me run them on a character of my choice.
* Let's create a new system, this new system is better, it's shiny, you're going to like, and we're going to get rid of the old system. This is getting ****ing redonkulous! As developers get brought in and leave this game faster then a $2 ***** house they continue to half-implement their pet systems or changes and we're left with a steaming pile of half-baked ****. Enough is enough. Fix what you have instead of piling more on top.
Officer of the Platinum Knights of Cannith, Founder of the guild GHOSTBANE of Cannith
Main - Death - Completionist and then some...
Other Characters - Holy, Leap, War, Optimusprime, Intimitank, Lanfear, Can, Afkbiobrb, Garagesale, Leverpuller and many more
Glin - thanks for the update.
You asked how I play -
On my main toon I level from 1 to 20 and TR immediately. I do not run any epic quest, I don't want to run any epic quests, I want to get on to my next life and try a new class/build/race whatever. I have done this 13-14 times. I have either earned my TR Hearts via challenge turn in, VIP TPs, TPs from buying the expansion or tokens earned by my other two epic level toons. Please do not make me run any epic content to include sagas to get a TR Heart. It will NOT be fun for me.
Once Epic Reincarnation (ER) arrives and I finish earning completionist I plan on trying out Epic levels, iconics and ER. While doing this I plan on running a few sagas to get extra xp for off destinies or skill tomes. I want to be able to run all the epic content (old and new) and when I reach level cap be able to TR IMMEDIATELY. It is NOT fun for me to stay at level cap, I do not like being at level cap. I feel that my toon is static and not making any progress at level cap and that is NOT fun. If I am forced to only run sagas to earn commendation for a Heart and ignore all the other epic content so that I can ER or ITR immediately at level cap that will NOT be fun. It will also not be fun to chose commendations from saga rewards over xp or skill tomes to support my fun TR habit.
Please provide a Heroic method to earn Heroic TR. An Epic method to ER to ITR is fine. Please let the sagas be a fun goal for a nice perk (xp/skill tome) and not a forced grind. Let me play any and all epic content to earn my ER to ITR.
In parting here is a quick comment on sagas -
They are too long. 4-6 quests is fine. 8-16 quests is not. Short goal for a moderate reward is great. Epic grind for a good reward sucks.
Glin, on a calmer note, think back on the experience with epic reincarnation. The first idea (wiping destiny xp) was met with outrage, then several followup clarification posts only served to further rile up the playerbase, including people unsubscribing and/or leaving the game outright. So far so similar.
You guys then scrapped the entire idea and started over, and not to blow smoke or anything, but the new vision you worked out was a home run. Seriously, you knocked it out of the park. Please, I'm begging you, let's repeat that experience. Now that the initial backlash and ill-received followups are out of the way, it's a perfect time to shift that paradigm.
It's worth nothing that while most of the anger is directed at the proposed changes to heroic TR, I'm actually also a little sad that I will never do an epic reincarnation if the proposed system goes through. Epic reincarnation sounded fun, but essentially "throwing away" two heroic hearts worth of valor on an epic heart is never going to happen, at least not by me.
I don't really TR for character power, I TR to break up the monotony of running the 70 or so epic quests over and over and over. TRing gives me literally hundreds of "new" quests to run. (I show 309 quests in game, 77 of which are epic or have epic versions. That's 232 non-epic quests I never see again once I hit 20, so TRing lets me run those again to refresh/renew my interest in the game. That's the primary reason I TR.)
Last edited by EllisDee37; 10-21-2013 at 10:06 PM.
- Make sure Sagas are actually working before you move everything over.
- Expand the list of Sagas (and make sure whoever is doing the coding for the Saga template is doing so in a manner that is consistent with plugging in variables and not custom-coding it. I get the feeling there's a lot of issues that could be avoided by doing this). Here's a few that I can think of that could reward Commendations of Valor:
- Phiarlan Carnival of Shadows
- Sentinels of Stormreach
- The Demon Sands
- Vault of the Artificers
- Vault of Night
- Red Fens
- Web of Chaos
- The Devils of Shavarath
- The Dreaming Dark+The Path of Inspiration
- All of the Necropolis
- Well and truly do away with Tokens. The augments that you can currently get with Tokens should be made available from other means.
- Give us a way to get rid of excess tokens. A 1 token = 1k xp or 500 guild renown or something, and a 25 fragments = 250 xp or 125 guild renown. When you talk about a currency that is spent by the 10s and 20s but acquired in the single digits with change, there needs to be an appreciable way to leech them out of the game.
One last note, please consider how you are going to get rid of Seals, Scrolls, and Shards as well. Many many players have posted excellent ideas on how to do so. If you are going to phase out such a well-established legacy system, there should be (1) some way for players with old ingredients to get the new items/ingredients, (2) a well-tested new system that is well thought out and (at least at first) a 1:1 exchange from the old system, (3) a significant number of quests and items that use the new mechanics, and (4) if you are going to keep making us micromanage our inventory with red and green bags, please consider updating that system as well.
Honkin * Diaari * Bazongas
This sounds like another nail in the coffin of Pick Up Groups. How do you propose players co-ordinate their Saga completion needs? Also, you stated yourself that the intent is for players to prioritize Valor as their Saga reward: you've forced us into another either/or decision between Valor and the rest of the Saga reward list! Stupid, wrong, and overly punitive.
It's not even clear how bad the sacrifices will be for Iconic and Epic hearts. These two reincarnations will likely have much more to lose, since they aren't True, but closer to Lesser reincarnations. Those Saga rewards like XP, and Loot are pretty crucial to characters that are only LRing....
It seems to me the only valid "problem" you're trying to solve is the ease of acquiring Hearts in our current system. The obvious and easy fix is to increase the Token cost for Hearts. Why go through all this rigamarole with new currencies and BTA/BTC changes just to accomplish that??? You have new Hearts for new Reinc's? Great - Drop tokens in more E content and price your new hearts in Tokens.... What's so complicated about that?
Time better spent developing new ways to SPEND tokens, rather than devaluing Tokens altogether. Make us have a tough choice between spending tokens on new augments or Hearts or someother shiny thing, instead of FORCING the though choices through mandatory Saga completions.
And as for "new ways of acquiring Valor in the future", who are you kidding? You KNOW that turbine's track record for adding promised features "someday" is horrendous. Either do the legwork NOW and release the system COMPLETE, or just shelve the whole thing until you CAN.
You guys just LOVE a backlash. Even you, Glin, have experienced this already. Have you learned NOTHING???
Originally Posted by Towrn
I know dupers cost Turbine money. But these players if not busted and banned will not be hurt by a new TR system. I am sure they duped plenty of hearts if they went down that road. Instead this system just penalizes all of us who did not dupe tokens. Turbine should concentrate on penalizing the dupers and not us. If Turbine really wants to make money because of this large loss of revenue from dupers then perhaps it needs to finally sell us the things we have been asking for like more bank space, player housing, new monster manuals, new packs with raids, additional permanent gold seal hirelings etc. Selling us things that we really want will be much more lucrative and profitable for Turbine then making us pay for new things that replace the old things we already paid to be able to do. This will also result in a lot less in-game and forum drama.
Perhaps Turbine needs to start listening to the players. Has Turbine ever once actually solicited feedback from us on new items that we would like to see in the store and then actually used those results to create products that we would happily buy? It seems like a no-brainer to me.
1) Broadly, sounds fine. I agree with Thrudh and others who say token (sorry) amounts of commendations dropping in end chests of epic quests would be nice in addition to sagas. I also appreciate that may even be already being discussed so sweet.
2) Usually I'm able to figure out, to my own satisfaction whether actually right or wrong, why things in DDO are done the way they are.
I can't for the life of me see the advantages for Turbine or players in having the Commendations be BTC not BTA. Is it... to make people play their "healer"? That's genuinely the best guess I've got and it's so nonsensical I don't think it could possibly be Turbine's reasoning. Anyone?
Khyber: Aggrim (Completionist!)
All of my builds are grossly out of date. Just roll a human or drow mechanic / assassin rogue thing.
Blind insta-kills floating eye balls.
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