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  1. #1
    Community Member Robai's Avatar
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    Default U20 = officially P2P?

    I joined this game, because it was F2P.
    With so many packs it's so hard to play as F2P (you can play only a small part of the game).

    With the tokens of the 12 it was a good game as F2P:
    - level up to 20, farm some old epics (neither of which is F2P btw)
    - TR and get some TPs on the way back to lvl20

    Lvl20 brings this:
    - can't TR, unless you have new packs (which are super expensive for F2P)
    - and you are ready to grind it for years until you finally get that True Druidic Heart of Wood
    - the cheapest way probably will be Gianthold pack, but it's still not cheap (was the most expensive pack before U14)

    In other words, U20 makes this game officially P2P.
    My questions:
    - why F2P model was so bad?
    - why anyone in the company thinks that ghost towns will give more profit?
    - does it mean that this game is trying to get as much money as it can just before it closes? Any ETA on that? 1 year?
    - anyway, why not give us an option to buy more BtC space? (I'd like to have at least some fun until this game closes)
    Vote for DDO, The exact trap DCs in EE HH, A guide for DDO-ML, Unknown Heroes: 3rd place, TR Cache Button, Loot Design, Welcome to Orien: /joinchannel Titan
    Quote Originally Posted by Certon View Post
    This is the most perfect suggestion in the history of suggestions, and it is full of upsides for both players and servers.

  2. #2
    Community Member tkscience's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRobai View Post
    I joined this game, because it was F2P.
    With so many packs it's so hard to play as F2P (you can play only a small part of the game).

    With the tokens of the 12 it was a good game as F2P:
    - level up to 20, farm some old epics (neither of which is F2P btw)
    - TR and get some TPs on the way back to lvl20

    Lvl20 brings this:
    - can't TR, unless you have new packs (which are super expensive for F2P)
    - and you are ready to grind it for years until you finally get that True Druidic Heart of Wood
    - the cheapest way probably will be Gianthold pack, but it's still not cheap (was the most expensive pack before U14)

    In other words, U20 makes this game officially P2P.
    My questions:
    - why F2P model was so bad?
    - why anyone in the company thinks that ghost towns will give more profit?
    - does it mean that this game is trying to get as much money as it can just before it closes? Any ETA on that? 1 year?
    - anyway, why not give us an option to buy more BtC space? (I'd like to have at least some fun until this game closes)
    This is an excellent thought, and shows the cracks in the f2p model that turbine came out with a number of years ago.
    However, i think a F2P has is better than when i started. There's just a little more jump between the 'payers' and 'non payers', but that's reasonable.

    I joined when it was f2p. I liked it. I spent some money on it (call is 200$, peanuts compared to many, lots compared to some), but never subscribed. I bought MotU, and liked it.
    I have all the classes, races, packs, and some other perks. I have enough points built up for 'the next pack', if it looks good to me. But really, since i've bought most of the things i want, how is Turbine going to continue to make a profit from my bandwidth? Oooh, seems that have to buy the second expansion to get true hearts efficiently, since it counts for multiple sagas. Didn't sell well? Ah, tant pis.

    Looking back, i spent my points on things i rarely, or never, run (Reaver's reach, perfect example, much like Rhode's Island). But i could buy them through the ability to TR, and pull favour easier.

    When i earned my first true heart, i think i had both, and all of, demon sands and carnival to run. and I liked that too.

    The proposed changes will lock me, the slightly younger me, less grey me, out of TR'ing. That isn't good.
    This is the opposite of new player friendly.

    (PS: yearly post. have mercy, you forum trolls)
    Last edited by tkscience; 10-21-2013 at 12:59 PM.
    Let's be honest: you don't care who my alts are.
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  3. #3
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    They should never care for people that refuse to pay a penny.
    You want something, you buy it.
    Simple.
    Quote Originally Posted by Originally Posted by Random Person #2 View Post
    People who exploit bugs in code are cheaters cheaters cheaters. And they are big fat ****yheads too.

  4. #4
    Community Member tkscience's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post
    They should never care for people that refuse to pay a penny.
    You want something, you buy it.
    Simple.
    Indeed, those free to play never payed anything, and certainly, the change from a subscription system to a revolutionary (at the time) ftp/ptp system did not keep the game running.

    Carry on.
    Let's be honest: you don't care who my alts are.
    I'm still raising the bar on gimpness one day at a time.

  5. #5
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tkscience View Post
    Indeed, those free to play never payed anything, and certainly, the change from a subscription system to a revolutionary (at the time) ftp/ptp system did not keep the game running.

    Carry on.
    FREE to play NEVER paid anything.
    PREMIUM players did.
    Quote Originally Posted by Originally Posted by Random Person #2 View Post
    People who exploit bugs in code are cheaters cheaters cheaters. And they are big fat ****yheads too.

  6. #6
    Community Member Lauf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post
    FREE to play NEVER paid anything.
    PREMIUM players did.
    PREMIUM players didn't start out as such.... most if not all of them started as FREE to play.
    if you alienate the free to play players, you'll end up with less premium ones.
    and the less players you have, the less people would want to play...

  7. #7
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post
    They should never care for people that refuse to pay a penny.
    You want something, you buy it.
    Simple.
    You mean like buying the packs they are farming tokens out of?
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  8. #8
    Community Member HernandoCortez's Avatar
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    I doubt it there are free to play players in this game. If you play for a while you have to become premium. And those will suffer with U20.
    EXTREME PREJUDICE™ - by Turbine.
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  9. #9
    Community Member tkscience's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post
    FREE to play NEVER paid anything.
    PREMIUM players did.
    No need to shout, I'm familiar with the concepts. After all, there is a handy chart explaining the differences.

    However, when was the last time you met a true F2P player? They are few and far between these days.
    Most of us have become premium. Which isn't quite P2P either.

    However, i wonder how the change to F2P saved the game from going under, if they never bought anything? Righty. They tried it, and bought something.

    Regardless, none of the community, VIPs, Premium, or F2P is benefiting from the upcoming changes, because the majority of sagas requires the expansions.
    Last edited by tkscience; 10-21-2013 at 02:55 PM.
    Let's be honest: you don't care who my alts are.
    I'm still raising the bar on gimpness one day at a time.

  10. #10
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tkscience View Post
    No need to shout, I'm familiar with the concepts.

    However, when was the last time you met a true F2P player? They are few and far between these days.
    Most of us have become premium. Which isn't quite P2P either.

    Regardless, none of the community, VIPs, Premium, or F2P is benefiting from the upcoming changes, because the majority of sagas requires the expansions.
    For p2p players, expansions are just like normal quest pack with 2 diffences: they come at once bundled, instead of one after another, and they come with unneeded junk throwed in so they can be overpriced.

    I don't like U20 too, but I can't see how it hurts p2p more than vips.
    Quote Originally Posted by Originally Posted by Random Person #2 View Post
    People who exploit bugs in code are cheaters cheaters cheaters. And they are big fat ****yheads too.

  11. #11
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tkscience View Post
    No need to shout, I'm familiar with the concepts.

    However, when was the last time you met a true F2P player? They are few and far between these days.
    Most of us have become premium. Which isn't quite P2P either.

    Regardless, none of the community, VIPs, Premium, or F2P is benefiting from the upcoming changes, because the majority of sagas requires the expansions.
    This brings up another interesting point. What do you do when an expansion isnt very well received? Force people to buy it in other ways. Players who didnt get the expansion are now going to either have to not TR at all, pay for TR hearts, or pay for the expansion and farm hearts in game. Stuck between 2 pay options, with the third option to not advance the character any further.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post
    They should never care for people that refuse to pay a penny.
    You want something, you buy it.
    Simple.
    i don't know about you but i'd take a server full of FTP players anyday over what happened to keeper and devourer.

    for every player that decides to grind their noses off to truly play the game for free there are many more that splash a little bit of cash here and there, just as there are people who can't be bothered to cook and order a takeaway.

    FTP MMOs had a very bad reputation before Turbine redefined them. previously they were all PTW, to hit end game you had to pay. turbine rewrote that definition by allowing players to grind out store points for free, and personally i love that stroke of genius as it's sent a shockwave through the MMO market causing many other companies to follow suit.

    it's sad to see that great change being slowly eroded away with each update. i think the cash shop is so much better if it's more tempting than it is mandatory. if new players feel that they can play the game for free, but are then tempted to splash a bit of cash to better enjoy their time then they will be happy gamers. if however they feel they must splash some cash or their progress will all but halt to the point of them not wanting to log in anymore then to me the balance is wrong as the players won't be happy and will slowly drift away.

    tempt don't force.

    as for me i was a subscriber before FTP and i'm still a subscriber now. the difference is i had to leave my old server when it became a ghost town during "vast and mysterious" and "atari vs turbine" and am now enjoying a much healthier population on my new home server. i have also tempted 2 RL friends into the game because it is now FTP so they don't feel like a months sub is wasted for an evenings play once in a blue moon. both have full time jobs and both have been tempted to splash some cash.

    so feel free to berate the free players, personally they have made DDO a much better game for me. looking at your location and join date, did you not also go through the same european server shutdown that i did?
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  13. #13
    Community Member tkscience's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    This brings up another interesting point. What do you do when an expansion isnt very well received? Force people to buy it in other ways. Players who didnt get the expansion are now going to either have to not TR at all, pay for TR hearts, or pay for the expansion and farm hearts in game. Stuck between 2 pay options, with the third option to not advance the character any further.
    I did not buy the second expansion because of the unfavorable reviews, putting it mildly.

    I'm one of the interesting points, as you put it.

    I disagree with the posts of 'why this change is happening', or however they are titled. To me, they are happening because they force players to buy either the expansions, or one of the most expensive packs (GH), in order to earn hearts.
    Basically means that players wishing to TR will have to have spent something in the store, or grinded (is that a word? ground? grounded?) out close to 1000 tp. Again, not new player friendly in the slightest.

    That's disregarding the ludicrous commendation drop rate on Lam, or the almost equally ludicrous fact they are BtC at the moment.
    Let's be honest: you don't care who my alts are.
    I'm still raising the bar on gimpness one day at a time.

  14. #14
    2016 DDO Players Council Qhualor's Avatar
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    I was part of the F2P rush after the doors opened. 3 months later I went VIP and still am today. Their business strategy to get people to P2P was much better than it is now.

    Yes, DDO is fast becoming P2P but Turbine isn't exactly doing things right. Its affecting everyone and not just F2P.

  15. #15
    Community Member twigzz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauf View Post
    PREMIUM players didn't start out as such.... most if not all of them started as FREE to play.
    if you alienate the free to play players, you'll end up with less premium ones.
    and the less players you have, the less people would want to play...
    I've been premium since I had the choice to drop a monthly sub. Most if not all the people I know switched to premium. We all own everything too. We've all been here since the start of this game...

  16. #16
    Community Member Robai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post
    They should never care for people that refuse to pay a penny.
    You want something, you buy it.
    Simple.
    You know, that's rude.
    As a former F2P (for quite a time) I feel insulted.
    I have all packs/all classes and all races now (even bladeforged), but only because I'm an addict and eventually started paying real cash for this game (payed more than I can admit).

    If this game would be P2P I would never start playing it in the first place.

    Despite that Turbine became so greedy (ASAH/evil button in chests/raid timers/saga completions/highest tier tomes in store/etc) I could ignore that (except for the evil button in chest), but U20 changes got even my attention (as someone well said, 'Turbine is at its best').
    Vote for DDO, The exact trap DCs in EE HH, A guide for DDO-ML, Unknown Heroes: 3rd place, TR Cache Button, Loot Design, Welcome to Orien: /joinchannel Titan
    Quote Originally Posted by Certon View Post
    This is the most perfect suggestion in the history of suggestions, and it is full of upsides for both players and servers.

  17. #17
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    As a very long term VIP I am very much against the change and I doubt if many long term players are actually f2p most are premium having spent something at some point.

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  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRobai View Post
    I joined this game, because it was F2P.
    With so many packs it's so hard to play as F2P (you can play only a small part of the game).

    With the tokens of the 12 it was a good game as F2P:
    - level up to 20, farm some old epics (neither of which is F2P btw)
    - TR and get some TPs on the way back to lvl20

    Lvl20 brings this:
    - can't TR, unless you have new packs (which are super expensive for F2P)
    - and you are ready to grind it for years until you finally get that True Druidic Heart of Wood
    - the cheapest way probably will be Gianthold pack, but it's still not cheap (was the most expensive pack before U14)

    In other words, U20 makes this game officially P2P.
    My questions:
    - why F2P model was so bad?
    - why anyone in the company thinks that ghost towns will give more profit?
    - does it mean that this game is trying to get as much money as it can just before it closes? Any ETA on that? 1 year?
    - anyway, why not give us an option to buy more BtC space? (I'd like to have at least some fun until this game closes)
    As a paying customer I understand the frustration of people trying to skate in this game without paying a penny. But you don't have my sympathies. What's bad however is that as a paying customer it's not good enough for Turbine to wait for me to give them money for adding wanted content. Now they're in my pockets all the time without even providing me with a good value.

  19. #19
    Community Member TDarkchylde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post
    They should never care for people that refuse to pay a penny.
    You want something, you buy it.
    Simple.
    Bad argument there: the literal difference between true F2P and Premium is as little as five dollars.

    That's not per month or every once in a while, that is ever.
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  20. #20
    Community Member Robai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patang01 View Post
    As a paying customer I understand the frustration of people trying to skate in this game without paying a penny. But you don't have my sympathies. What's bad however is that as a paying customer it's not good enough for Turbine to wait for me to give them money for adding wanted content. Now they're in my pockets all the time without even providing me with a good value.
    Oh yeah, as a paying customer I don't get what I want, which is more BtC space.
    I don't care about new content (I have all packs, but can't loot anything, so meh).
    You can keep your sympathies in a safe place.
    Vote for DDO, The exact trap DCs in EE HH, A guide for DDO-ML, Unknown Heroes: 3rd place, TR Cache Button, Loot Design, Welcome to Orien: /joinchannel Titan
    Quote Originally Posted by Certon View Post
    This is the most perfect suggestion in the history of suggestions, and it is full of upsides for both players and servers.

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