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  1. #1
    Community Member Portalcat's Avatar
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    Default Commendation of Valor Turn-ins for Hearts are a Great Idea

    No, seriously. The current token system is dysfunctional and is probably best replaced one way or another. Replacing it with the saga system actually makes a lot of sense. (They just have to fix the numbers from what are ultimately first-pass numbers on a test server, and it would help if they added more epic Eberron sagas.)



    I'm new to DDO within the past 6 months. That's important in this case in that it gave me the benefit of going through my first TR with a fresh set of eyes. My experience went something like this:

    (1) Wait, only a few certain older content chains drop tokens? What about all this new content that I bought and I'd like to play? If I play the new content, I'll make no progress towards TRing.
    (2) EE is way too hard for my first life character with no epic destinies completed. Meanwhile, EN and EH quests mostly drop like half a token per quest except Devil Assault and Cannith Challenges. Grinding this will take forever unless I play DA or challenges only.
    (3) I can farm a token in 2-3 hours on Time is Money. It gets quickly boring, but if I want to TR, why would I ever play anything else?


    The token system heavily incentivizes you to run and only run a narrow sliver of two arbitrary P2P content packs. This is terrible game design.


    Presumably, the reason you need to farm hearts at all is so that players are required to take their freshly (re)minted level 20 characters and at least dabble in epic content. The token system, as it currently stands, does pretty much the opposite - it makes people tediously farm just a couple of specific quests and ignore epic content generally.

    In theory, you could fix this either by overhauling tokens by making them drop in all epic content and nerfing the DA and Cannith drop rates, but balancing drop rates to avoid making something else just take DA and Cannith's place would be a nightmare. Using sagas instead effectively eliminates this as a problem altogether; people have to dabble in a variety of quests to complete the saga. Also, it's easier to balance drop rates on just a handful of sagas than every single epic quest individually.




    TL;DR: The token system is broken, Turbine just has to fix the numbers for saga drop rates and it's a substantial improvement over the status quo.
    Last edited by Portalcat; 10-21-2013 at 02:33 AM.

  2. #2
    The Hatchery Scraap's Avatar
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    Since you're new, you weren't around when they actively both altered the name from epic dungeon tokens to tokens of the twelve, and also had to patch their first expansion to stop token fragments from dropping from mobs.

    In short, they created the barrier themselves though deliberate over-complication, and it would be truly trivial to reverse that course.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scraap View Post
    Since you're new, you weren't around when they actively both altered the name from epic dungeon tokens to tokens of the twelve, and also had to patch their first expansion to stop token fragments from dropping from mobs.

    In short, they created the barrier themselves though deliberate over-complication, and it would be truly trivial to reverse that course.
    Indeed. Make tokens drop from everywhere, and hey presto, the problem goes away.
    It's definitely an N-word.

  4. #4
    Community Member Forzah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Portalcat View Post
    No, seriously. The current token system is dysfunctional and is probably best replaced one way or another. Replacing it with the saga system actually makes a lot of sense. (They just have to fix the numbers from what are ultimately first-pass numbers on a test server, and it would help if they added more epic Eberron sagas.)



    I'm new to DDO within the past 6 months. That's important in this case in that it gave me the benefit of going through my first TR with a fresh set of eyes. My experience went something like this:

    (1) Wait, only a few certain older content chains drop tokens? What about all this new content that I bought and I'd like to play? If I play the new content, I'll make no progress towards TRing.
    (2) EE is way too hard for my first life character with no epic destinies completed. Meanwhile, EN and EH quests mostly drop like half a token per quest except Devil Assault and Cannith Challenges. Grinding this will take forever unless I play DA or challenges only.
    (3) I can farm a token in 2-3 hours on Time is Money. It gets quickly boring, but if I want to TR, why would I ever play anything else?


    The token system heavily incentivizes you to run and only run a narrow sliver of two arbitrary P2P content packs. This is terrible game design.


    Presumably, the reason you need to farm hearts at all is so that players are required to take their freshly (re)minted level 20 characters and at least dabble in epic content. The token system, as it currently stands, does pretty much the opposite - it makes people tediously farm just a couple of specific quests and ignore epic content generally.

    In theory, you could fix this either by overhauling tokens by making them drop in all epic content and nerfing the DA and Cannith drop rates, but balancing drop rates to avoid making something else just take DA and Cannith's place would be a nightmare. Using sagas instead effectively eliminates this as a problem altogether; people have to dabble in a variety of quests to complete the saga. Also, it's easier to balance drop rates on just a handful of sagas than every single epic quest individually.




    TL;DR: The token system is broken, Turbine just has to fix the numbers for saga drop rates and it's a substantial improvement over the status quo.
    You forgot to follow the forum rules: reason is not allowed, only doom!

    But yea, I have to agree. The current mechanism doesn't really promote playing epics.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Portalcat View Post
    <snip>The token system is broken <snip>
    Ok, I narrowed down your post to this, because this seems to be what you don't like about the current system.

    Yes, the current system for gathering Epic Tokens only consist of a few of the older quests. What you are missing is that originally, EVERY Epic quest dropped Epic Tokens, until MOTU (the Forgotten Realms expansion) came out. The Devs changed it so that Epic Tokens didn't drop in the new content. They even changed the name of Epic Tokens to Tokens of the Twelve or something.

    Players at the time complained the lack of Epic Tokens in the new content. We were told to basically shut up because the new content had all these new Commendations and the chests couldn't contain both Epic Tokens and these new various Commendations. So now the Devs will be introducing even more new various Commendations for TRing. But they will only be available in the new content by running Sagas which players need to buy the Expansions to get them, except for Gianthold.

    What you are asking for is that a currency to be available everywhere so players can TR. We had that before MOTU. The Devs changed it. We wanted the Epic Tokens to drop in all Epic quests. They didn't. Now they want the Ings for making Heroic TR Hearts to only drop in the new content. That is plain wrong.

    So you are about a year behind on your complaint that Epic Tokens aren't dispersed in quests properly. The problem wasn't created by the players, but the Devs over a year ago. And we called them out on it then and we were told to shut up.

  6. #6
    Community Member Ausdoerrt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Portalcat View Post
    (1) Wait, only a few certain older content chains drop tokens? What about all this new content that I bought and I'd like to play? If I play the new content, I'll make no progress towards TRing.
    In addition to what the others said (i.e. the token system wouldn't be this dysfunctional if not for Turbine's efforts):

    Why the need to screw someone over in the process? How is it even good to go from one arbitrary narrow sliver of epic content to farm BtA tokens to an equally arbitrary, even more narrow sliver of epic content to farm BtC commendations?

    Mind you, you're correct that 2 packs offer an effective min/max grind for tokens. Yet you still get them from many, many other epic quests, too. I feel like requirement to run sagas makes the available options much more limited.

    With all fairness, we need a system for earning tokens that covers ALL epic content and doesn't discriminate between older and newer players.
    "People are stupid; given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. ... People's heads are full of knowledge, facts, and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true." Terry Goodkind

  7. #7
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    To make the Saga version work they'd have to:

    1) Make the amount dropped be reasonable compared to the runs now needed for TR.
    2) Make the comms BTA, not BTC.
    3) Make several more Sagas so that more epic quests are included in the system.
    4) Make at least some shorter Sagas so that people have a sense of progress towards getting what they want.
    5) Make a UI that supports tracking Sagas.
    6) Make sure Sagas nver bug out again (like they've done several times now).
    7) Add something to House C Challenge pack to make it worthwhile again.

    Or, they could just make tokens drop everywhere. Which has the added benefit of allowing people to run whatever they feel like, not just Sagas.

    I think the last is much easier, and less prone to bugging out than doing Sagas.
    It's definitely an N-word.

  8. #8
    Community Member Khalesh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dandonk View Post
    Indeed. Make tokens drop from everywhere, and hey presto, the problem goes away.

    So much sign ... revert to Epic Dungeon Tokens, have them in ALL Epic Dungeons and tada problem sorted ... run whatever you want!!!

    Stop over complicating things turbine


    Note: When you WANT to TR you will run whatever is most efficient for you. Forcing folks to run through whole saga's multiple times is horribly horribly wrong.


    As I have said in multiple threads .. Turbine you want to do this saga fiasco for Epic Tring then so be it but don't mess with Heroic TRing but in my humble opinion the fix is the following:

    1) Drop Epic Dungeon tokens from ALL Epic Tokens
    2) Set Heart costs at:

    20 for Heroic TR
    30 Iconic TR
    30 Epic TR

    win win win win win !!!!!

  9. #9
    Community Member Khalesh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khalesh View Post
    So much sign ... revert to Epic Dungeon Tokens, have them in ALL Epic Dungeons and tada problem sorted ... run whatever you want!!!

    1) Drop Epic Dungeon tokens from ALL Epic Tokens


    win win win win win !!!!!
    Sorry I meant

    1) Drop Epic Dungeon token in ALL Epic Dungeons

    Bit I think the point is made

  10. #10
    Community Member sdrocky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khalesh View Post
    Sorry I meant

    1) Drop Epic Dungeon token in ALL Epic Dungeons

    Bit I think the point is made
    /signed

  11. #11
    Community Member Lonnbeimnech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Portalcat View Post
    No, seriously. The current token system is dysfunctional and is probably best replaced one way or another. Replacing it with the saga system actually makes a lot of sense. (They just have to fix the numbers from what are ultimately first-pass numbers on a test server, and it would help if they added more epic Eberron sagas.)



    I'm new to DDO within the past 6 months. That's important in this case in that it gave me the benefit of going through my first TR with a fresh set of eyes. My experience went something like this:

    (1) Wait, only a few certain older content chains drop tokens? What about all this new content that I bought and I'd like to play? If I play the new content, I'll make no progress towards TRing.
    (2) EE is way too hard for my first life character with no epic destinies completed. Meanwhile, EN and EH quests mostly drop like half a token per quest except Devil Assault and Cannith Challenges. Grinding this will take forever unless I play DA or challenges only.
    (3) I can farm a token in 2-3 hours on Time is Money. It gets quickly boring, but if I want to TR, why would I ever play anything else?


    The token system heavily incentivizes you to run and only run a narrow sliver of two arbitrary P2P content packs. This is terrible game design.


    Presumably, the reason you need to farm hearts at all is so that players are required to take their freshly (re)minted level 20 characters and at least dabble in epic content. The token system, as it currently stands, does pretty much the opposite - it makes people tediously farm just a couple of specific quests and ignore epic content generally.

    In theory, you could fix this either by overhauling tokens by making them drop in all epic content and nerfing the DA and Cannith drop rates, but balancing drop rates to avoid making something else just take DA and Cannith's place would be a nightmare. Using sagas instead effectively eliminates this as a problem altogether; people have to dabble in a variety of quests to complete the saga. Also, it's easier to balance drop rates on just a handful of sagas than every single epic quest individually.




    TL;DR: The token system is broken, Turbine just has to fix the numbers for saga drop rates and it's a substantial improvement over the status quo.
    Would have made more sense if they had tokens drop in the new content.

    But they should have reduced the amount of tokens you get from the old content, and yes that would have upset people, but considering how much more difficult those old epics were to complete when this system was created, gathering 20 tokens has since become trivial.

  12. #12
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    i never farmed either of the 2 aformentioned quests/packs for tokens

    i ran the ebberon epics trying to aquire seals/shards/scrolls for items,earning close to 300 tokens on the way which i have used for trs

    people have chosen to run the same content over and over,even though most complain that its extremly boring...thats a choice they make

    i think the new tr system itself seems good but the new entry to it is horrible

    and mostly hurts new and casual players who tr ..as a vet i have earned enough tokens to stockpile hearts on tr toons

    by the time those runout i will have earned enough comms (regardless of# required)to continue to tr ...new players and players with less time to play...not so much

    as for epic and iconic trs if its excessivlly grindy ill just skip it regardless of how well the devs constructed that part of new tr system

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnbeimnech View Post
    Would have made more sense if they had tokens drop in the new content.

    But they should have reduced the amount of tokens you get from the old content, and yes that would have upset people, but considering how much more difficult those old epics were to complete when this system was created, gathering 20 tokens has since become trivial.
    They did reduce the amount of Epic Tokens and Fragments drop in each quest. And the reason for the drop was because players now do not have to wait 18 Hours to repeat an Epic anymore. The number of Epic Tokens in quests were cut sharply. The Shards and Seals have been cut sharply also. And previously if you were running an Epic quest, you'd end up with an average of 10 to 20 Epic Fragments from killing stuff in the quests; currently if you get 5 fragments a run, that's considered extremely high.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forzah View Post
    The current mechanism doesn't really promote playing epics.
    If people wanted to play "Epic" content, they wouldn't be worried about how they're going to Heroic True Reincarnate.

    So, you're right. But why should it? Turbine has spent many years building a wonderful set of Heroic-level Eberron content, and people like it...so they want to make it less accessible?

  15. #15
    Community Member Lonnbeimnech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oradafu View Post
    They did reduce the amount of Epic Tokens and Fragments drop in each quest. And the reason for the drop was because players now do not have to wait 18 Hours to repeat an Epic anymore. The number of Epic Tokens in quests were cut sharply. The Shards and Seals have been cut sharply also. And previously if you were running an Epic quest, you'd end up with an average of 10 to 20 Epic Fragments from killing stuff in the quests; currently if you get 5 fragments a run, that's considered extremely high.
    Yup, I remember. They should still reduce it again.

  16. #16
    Community Member Ausdoerrt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnbeimnech View Post
    Would have made more sense if they had tokens drop in the new content.
    They already did around MoTU. Takes about twice as long to earn the 20 tokens now.
    "People are stupid; given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. ... People's heads are full of knowledge, facts, and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true." Terry Goodkind

  17. #17
    Community Member Lonnbeimnech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ericrd View Post
    i never farmed either of the 2 aformentioned quests/packs for tokens

    i ran the ebberon epics trying to aquire seals/shards/scrolls for items,earning close to 300 tokens on the way which i have used for trs

    people have chosen to run the same content over and over,even though most complain that its extremly boring...thats a choice they make

    i think the new tr system itself seems good but the new entry to it is horrible

    and mostly hurts new and casual players who tr ..as a vet i have earned enough tokens to stockpile hearts on tr toons

    by the time those runout i will have earned enough comms (regardless of# required)to continue to tr ...new players and players with less time to play...not so much

    as for epic and iconic trs if its excessivlly grindy ill just skip it regardless of how well the devs constructed that part of new tr system
    That's actually another problem with this new system, they have already invalidated all the old epic gear except for one item, the Esos. And now they are invalidating the tokens. There is no reason to run the older content anymore.

  18. #18
    Community Member Lonnbeimnech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausdoerrt View Post
    They already did around MoTU. Takes about twice as long to earn the 20 tokens now.
    Right now you can run eda on normal and get 1 token, and if you have a few friends to help out they can pass you another 5 in the chest. Before motu you could run this once per character every 18 hours, it was a much harder quest and the characters were not nearly as powerful, and no one could pass you tokens.

    No way does it take longer to get them.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnbeimnech View Post
    Right now you can run eda on normal and get 1 token, and if you have a few friends to help out they can pass you another 5 in the chest. Before motu you could run this once per character every 18 hours, it was a much harder quest and the characters were not nearly as powerful, and no one could pass you tokens.

    No way does it take longer to get them.
    That really depends on your playstyle and how much time you can give to playing the game.

    If players are still playing the game where they run the Epic quests once per log in instead of farming the few good quests with buddies to pass the Epic Tokens to them, it is indeed longer to collect Epic Tokens since the number of Epic Tokens have already been decreased greatly when MOTU came out.

  20. #20
    Community Member Ausdoerrt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnbeimnech View Post
    Right now you can run eda on normal and get 1 token, and if you have a few friends to help out they can pass you another 5 in the chest. Before motu you could run this once per character every 18 hours, it was a much harder quest and the characters were not nearly as powerful, and no one could pass you tokens.

    No way does it take longer to get them.
    You could get an ESoS in a few runs if people just passed all the stuff to you.

    You had a guaranteed token or two in most epics under the old system. Sure, once every 18 hours only, but hey - that actually encouraged people to run a variety of content.
    "People are stupid; given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. ... People's heads are full of knowledge, facts, and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true." Terry Goodkind

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