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  1. #21
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    OP: ignore the haters; pure bards play just fine. They may not get the Minmaxers Seal of Approval, but when have they ever?

    As always, picking the right build is about figuring out how you want to play your character and finding what best suits that playstyle; not simply doing what everyone else tells you you're "supposed" to do.
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  2. #22
    Community Member Bolo_Grubb's Avatar
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    Play what you like.

    I have a level 25 pure bard spell singer. Lots of fun, but minor DPS. I play her as mostly a buff bot/back healer/chest buffer/ and then melee DPS.

    I also have a 18 bard/2 rogue that I enjoy a lot. The 2 rogue levels just add a lot of utility. This toon however is on the TR train for a bit to build up some melee past lives.
    Kill'em all and let their favorite deity sort'em out
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  3. #23
    Community Member Steevye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    OP: ignore the haters; pure bards play just fine. They may not get the Minmaxers Seal of Approval, but when have they ever?

    As always, picking the right build is about figuring out how you want to play your character and finding what best suits that playstyle; not simply doing what everyone else tells you you're "supposed" to do.
    I find myself internally reiterating this time and time again...
    “Bodies wear out to remind us they are temporary, and force us to spend more thought on our spirits”
    ? Morgan Llywelyn, Bard: The Odyssey of the Irish

  4. #24
    Community Member Zachski's Avatar
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    Sorry about not replying for so long, real life tackled me and I temporarily forgot I even made this topic.

    The reason I want to play a pure bard is because I want to play a bard. Not a bard/fighter/rogue, not a bard/cleric, just a bard. Splashing anything taints the character for me, and the character ceases to be fun or interesting. I'm this way about every class, not just bard. I'm not even remotely a powergamer, I just suffer from OCD (as in, I'm actually diagnosed, not like a lot of people who think that simply liking organization and patterns in your life qualifies as OCD. It doesn't. It qualifies you as human.)

    Thanks for the advice guys. I'll definitely go for a spellsinger, though I think I'll try to include some melee potential early on until partying with other people becomes more rewarding. That shouldn't be too hard.
    The guy who likes to experience every class. Except Fighter >:[ I don't like you Fighter.
    Hey Devs! Let's give Warpriests and Eldritch Knights some loving, kay? :<

  5. #25
    Community Member Steevye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zachski View Post
    Sorry about not replying for so long, real life tackled me and I temporarily forgot I even made this topic.

    The reason I want to play a pure bard is because I want to play a bard. Not a bard/fighter/rogue, not a bard/cleric, just a bard. Splashing anything taints the character for me, and the character ceases to be fun or interesting. I'm this way about every class, not just bard. I'm not even remotely a powergamer, I just suffer from OCD (as in, I'm actually diagnosed, not like a lot of people who think that simply liking organization and patterns in your life qualifies as OCD. It doesn't. It qualifies you as human.)

    Thanks for the advice guys. I'll definitely go for a spellsinger, though I think I'll try to include some melee potential early on until partying with other people becomes more rewarding. That shouldn't be too hard.
    I'm the same way (I have only one splash at the moment, and I'm not sure how I'll feel about that). I don't necessarily feel it taints the character, but I do like playing a bard...it just doesn't feel bardy enough without 20 levels (and if you hit the epics, Fatesinger FTW).

    Only suggestion melee wise early on is use quarterstaves. Easy to get, gives decent attack/damage, and doesn't need master's touch. Later levels you can take the spell and start using martial weapons freely. I'd steer clear of the two handed fighting feats and focus more on casting feats, if going spellsinger (which is my favorite pre, period). Always remember too, Force of Personality is your friend!
    “Bodies wear out to remind us they are temporary, and force us to spend more thought on our spirits”
    ? Morgan Llywelyn, Bard: The Odyssey of the Irish

  6. #26
    Community Member Moltier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zachski View Post
    No splashes, no multi-classing, nothing. Just want to go from Bard level 1 to Bard level 20 to Fatesinger.

    I'm guessing this will mean I'll have to be a Spellsinger? In which case...

    Can anyone provide any advice on a Spellsinger bard? Leveling, builds, soloing AND partying, and so forth?

    I'd really love to be a Warchanter but from what I understand, it's severely underpowered right now.

    How would a Spellsinger with some Warchanter work out?

    I have a pure bard, and i play mainly EE with her. Basically a full time support bard with some killing ability.

    In easy EE quests, i use twists and destiny to kill things, while still doing what the character is focusing.
    Primal scream does awesome damage as bard, and energy burst is nice too. Not going to lead killcount (at least not too often), but can do respectable damage.

    In hard EE quests and raids, i focus on cc and heals. And of course buffs too. Sometimes neg leveling with wail, but thats all.
    My bard is focused on healing and surviving, fascinate and irresistible dance for cc. That way, i can carry pretty much any group to victory. Its not everyone's dream, but i dont mind helping first lifers, or even barbs!

    Often people think bards are useless, or waste of party slot, so its fun to see when they realize a bard can solo heal EEs, raids too.

    Another good thing about this kind of bard: you dont need über gear.
    But if you dont like to heal other people, go for cc, or a full melee build. For a melee version, you will need blitz or fury.
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  7. #27
    The Hatchery sirgog's Avatar
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    Spellsingers have one of the best capstones in the game. Wail is not irrelevant even if everything saves on a 2 (the neg levels still happen unless the mob has SR), and Heal is fantastic.

    I personally find a Str-based spellsinger effective. Enough DPS that you are somewhat useful, and you have enough healing to heal a Fall of Truth tank on EH without mana pots without difficulty. Plus you have Fascinate. Never forget Fascinate - it's not needed when things go according to plan, but as soon as someone screws up, you can prevent a lot of wipes with it.
    I don't have a zerging problem.

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  8. #28
    Community Member Steevye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirgog View Post
    Spellsingers have one of the best capstones in the game. Wail is not irrelevant even if everything saves on a 2 (the neg levels still happen unless the mob has SR), and Heal is fantastic.

    I personally find a Str-based spellsinger effective. Enough DPS that you are somewhat useful, and you have enough healing to heal a Fall of Truth tank on EH without mana pots without difficulty. Plus you have Fascinate. Never forget Fascinate - it's not needed when things go according to plan, but as soon as someone screws up, you can prevent a lot of wipes with it.
    I used the free LR to change my bard to use just STR/CON/CHA and dumped DEX. Boy the change it made to overall support dps...skaldic + deadly + fatesinger dmg bumps + PA + THF allows me to focus the rest of the build on CC and heals, as well as having enchant DCs in the 50s now. Anything EH and lower, as I've said on here before, I control them effortlessly. I also find that the Dirge song from fatesinger to be very, very nice DOT (people are saying bards don't have a DOT, but imho it's arguably one of the best as it's also an AOE and debuffer).

    Either way, with my choice weapon equipped and only a x2 multiplier, my crits are hitting around 1000 regularly (though admittedly a solid chunk of this is sonic damage). Nowhere near where my barbarian was hitting, but for a caster specced drow it's not horrid. I can think of worse builds I've done.

    Fascinate prevents wipes all the time. I remember in VON3 having a party member aggro that area with 3-4 rooms full of drow casters, archers, and rogues, and watching the group get mauled in the middle...so I fascinated, tossed up some mind fog/otto's spheres, and launched Dirge. Never underestimate the power of a high charisma bard when angry...or desperate...
    “Bodies wear out to remind us they are temporary, and force us to spend more thought on our spirits”
    ? Morgan Llywelyn, Bard: The Odyssey of the Irish

  9. #29
    Community Member Zachski's Avatar
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    Now I'm torn between melee spellsinger (with some warchanter enhancements) and caster spellsinger XD
    The guy who likes to experience every class. Except Fighter >:[ I don't like you Fighter.
    Hey Devs! Let's give Warpriests and Eldritch Knights some loving, kay? :<

  10. #30
    Community Member Steevye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zachski View Post
    Now I'm torn between melee spellsinger (with some warchanter enhancements) and caster spellsinger XD
    Do both (?)

    Because you want to, and because you can :P

    Seriously, it's feasible. May take some homework and number crunching, and one may take a sacrifice for the other (imho, melee takes the hit and casting takes precedence...if you freeze a mob it doesn't matter how much dmg you do a swing, it will eventually die and it won't kill you while dancing!).

    My pure bard, because she's pure and a drow, naturally has most points into SS and consequently has a lot of pts in warchanter too because...well...the drow tree sucks monkey nuts. I took the cores and the enchantment line 3rd tier. After that, it was wasteful and better spent in WC. My two cents...

    Race wise I hear a lot of drow ragging going on, but frankly it's nice to be able to not invest in dex or int and not lose any points to skills in those categories, and it's also nice to have a wicked charisma (and the only race in DDO right now that can have a truly wicked charisma is indeed the drow). So yeah, you get crappy HP, but most bards will anyway especially if pure...that d6 is laughable.
    “Bodies wear out to remind us they are temporary, and force us to spend more thought on our spirits”
    ? Morgan Llywelyn, Bard: The Odyssey of the Irish

  11. #31
    Community Member Zachski's Avatar
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    Hmm... So maybe, for a human bard...

    18 Charisma, 15 Constitution, 15 Strength

    Level ups into Charisma, while I using Power Attack and Bard songs to augment my damage and accuracy.
    Skills...

    UMD
    Perform
    Concentration
    Haggle
    Heal
    Spellcraft (I'm not sure what Bard spells this will affect, but I'm taking it anyways - I can always remake this character before he gets too far)

    Feats...

    1: Power Attack
    H: Cleave

    (Actually this is reversed but okay)
    3: Two-Handed Fighting? Maybe?

    6: Great Cleave

    After this, spellcasting feats. I plan to get Magical Training from the Spellsinger Branch, but perhaps I should pick up Mental Toughness or IMT, too.

    Spell Focus Enchantment maybe? Uh... Hm.

    Any advice?
    The guy who likes to experience every class. Except Fighter >:[ I don't like you Fighter.
    Hey Devs! Let's give Warpriests and Eldritch Knights some loving, kay? :<

  12. #32
    Community Member Steevye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zachski View Post
    Hmm... So maybe, for a human bard...

    18 Charisma, 15 Constitution, 15 Strength

    Level ups into Charisma, while I using Power Attack and Bard songs to augment my damage and accuracy.
    Skills...

    UMD
    Perform
    Concentration
    Haggle
    Heal
    Spellcraft (I'm not sure what Bard spells this will affect, but I'm taking it anyways - I can always remake this character before he gets too far)

    Feats...

    1: Power Attack
    H: Cleave

    (Actually this is reversed but okay)
    3: Two-Handed Fighting? Maybe?

    6: Great Cleave

    After this, spellcasting feats. I plan to get Magical Training from the Spellsinger Branch, but perhaps I should pick up Mental Toughness or IMT, too.

    Spell Focus Enchantment maybe? Uh... Hm.

    Any advice?
    Ignore spellcraft. Heal is a cross class skill but affects cures, perform is sonic dmg. Bards don't do any other elemental dmg so it's a wasted skill.

    Cleave is optional, depending. You do have 1 extra feat than I do so yeah, if it were me, I'd dump it right into cleave. With that considered, great cleave might also be warranted.

    THF isn't really useful since you're really limited on feats as is. I always max out Spell focus: enchant and take at least one spell pen feat. I also like Extend (makes hastes and rages less annoyingly short) and quicken (mostly for the painfully long casts like otto's sphere, mind fog, etc.). Quicken also makes group healing a LOT better, and you don't interrupt your own combat for long when you basically instaheal.

    Since U19 I personally found both types of toughness to be mostly null and void. The HP is ok, but at cap is only +30. It's a feat slot, remember that, and with the new loot coming out it's less necessary as it no longer offers racial and class enhancements that once gave multiple opps for +10s. Those being gone, toughness is optional. Mental toughness for a high charisma bard isn't need either, I'm sitting pretty at over 2000 sp and hardly ever dip below half thanks to songs and what not replenishing and costing spells less. Higher DCs > more sp. If you mostly land spells successfully the first time, recasts aren't needed, so less sp is theoretically consumed.

    TBH heal skill is/isn't needed. That's up to you. I find splashing about 30 pts into WC gets me decent base positive spellpower, and an item makes up the rest. I don't think an additional 11 spellpower from maxing the cross classed skill is worth spending the points in. I'd focus on perform, concentration, bluff/diplo, UMD, and some jump/tumble. Balance never hurts either, because...well...yeah, no one likes lying down in combat.

    Haggle in my experience takes care of itself with an item and a high charisma. Most NPC interactions operate off of diplo/bluff, occasionally intimidate but hardly only one of the three. If it's one out of the three, it seems like bluff is the default NPC interaction of choice (tiefling in secret room in partycrashers, for example). Besides all that, diplo/bluff are handy in combat to keep mobs off of you and on the less squishier PCs. It's always up to you, though.

    I'd argue that instead of cleave possibly considering improved critical: _____. I took slashing, since I really like my falchions and enjoy the 15-20 range they offer. When over 25% of your attacks are crits, it adds up nicely. Cleave, while it's a 1[W] arc, is still only a 1[W]. Frozen fury tier three does 1.5[W] on a single enemy, and that isn't that much extra damage to mitigate taking it. I have it because I didn't know where else to spend those 3 AP, and it's nice on EN/EH runs to incapacitate enemies frequently without having to cast hold all the time.

    Again, my two cents, given my play style, really. If you want more melee than casting, you're on a better track with your list than mine. If you're looking to be competent in epic material (EE aside), then you'll want DCs over 45 because, based on my experience, anything less seems to be ineffective as a whole.
    “Bodies wear out to remind us they are temporary, and force us to spend more thought on our spirits”
    ? Morgan Llywelyn, Bard: The Odyssey of the Irish

  13. #33
    Community Member Zachski's Avatar
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    Well, bearing in mind, I have that free lesser heart I can use for fixing some mistakes...

    I'll stop investing in Spellcraft, but I don't feel like remaking my character even if he's just level 1 for that.

    As for feats... yeah, okay, I won't go for THF. Maybe Great Cleave, I don't know.

    What I'm doing right now is I'm building my character as a warchanter early on, and then later when Warchanter abilities start to suck, I'll switch over to being primarily Spellsinger with some Warchanter stuff. Skaldic Rage is actually pretty useful at early levels. And since I took Cure Light Wounds as my (temporary) first spell, and since I can heal while in rage, the -4 AC doesn't really hurt all that much. Have I mentioned I actually love the concept of Skaldic Rage?

    I think the next spell I take will be Otto's Resistable Dance, if only because I love it as a CC. And I don't really care for Focusing Chant as a combat spell anyways (it's a nice haggle spell though)

    I think I will go for Boast early on. Maybe. That +1[W] is mighty attractive. Though I might have to invest more points in it to get more temp health so that I don't lose it all the first monster I fight :S I dunno.
    The guy who likes to experience every class. Except Fighter >:[ I don't like you Fighter.
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  14. #34
    Community Member Steevye's Avatar
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    I tried boast, and it works best when it's your first cast and you can later stack over 150 temp hp over it. Even then, it's meh.

    I wouldn't worry about respeccing a toon due to spellcraft unless you're level 20 and have it maxed. Then, you might want to, because that's 23 points spent that could go elsewhere.

    Skaldic is awesome. I still regularly toggle it at level 26, and the -4 AC is negligible. It'd be nice to have a con bump with it for the AC cost, but what can you do. Best part is it stacks with the spell, but so does the AC pen. Either way an eternal +6 STR, +2 CON, +2 will save and only a -6 AC isn't bad. Toss in Inspire Excellence at lvl 21 and you're golden.

    I like otto's resistable, but you will eventually give that up for better choices. I personally like sonic blast for early levels, because with a max perform it usually does solid damage and can one shot (or at least use to) kobolds as an AOE. The stun keeps mobs from flanking you too much too.

    THF simply increases glancing blows. If it increased the strength bonus, or increased rate of attack, etc., I'd be far more in favor. As it stands, though, the only thing it helps is the monsters around you, and cleave/gc will solve that better anyway.

    That in mind, take enchant weapon and all three tiers of the AC bump in WC early on. Did that with my newest TR and he's only a 6th level with a 31 shieldless AC. Considering he has no dex, that's not terrible numerically speaking.
    “Bodies wear out to remind us they are temporary, and force us to spend more thought on our spirits”
    ? Morgan Llywelyn, Bard: The Odyssey of the Irish

  15. #35
    Community Member Steevye's Avatar
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    I keep forgetting to mention taking Force of Personality. This negates your need for wisdom entirely. Considering my base will saves exceed 60 at 26, and saves against enchantments are well over 70, it's totally worth the feat investment. Virtually no spells are affecting the toon, considering that and her SR is @ a 42. It's also nice when coupled with the WC immunities and drow immunities.
    “Bodies wear out to remind us they are temporary, and force us to spend more thought on our spirits”
    ? Morgan Llywelyn, Bard: The Odyssey of the Irish

  16. #36
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    For 2H melee DPS, you should try to get Power Atk (1), Cleave (1), GC (6), and IC:Slash (12) - or blunt if you're an iconoclast who breaks all the rules. Personally I would start with STR no higher than 14; that lets you start CON 16 or more INT for more skill pts. [EDIT: I would invest some pts into Balance, if nothing else.]

    For spellcasting: well, that depends on what you want to cast. Short-term buffs? Extend is always welcome. MCMW & Heal? At least Quik+Emp Heal is a good idea. CC spells like Dancing Ball? Heighten, at least one Spell Focus:Enchant (pick up Enchant Specialist from Magister ASAP for another +3 DCs), and possibly Spell Pen x3. [I think of Spell Pen as all-or-nothing; you don't always need it, but if you're gonna invest in it, it's best to max it out.] Sonic spells? ...not convinced they're a good idea, but you wanna boost DCs, Spell Pen (unless you only use Gtr Shout), and probably Maximize (unless you're just using them for CC). Clearly, you're going to need to decide just how thin you're willing to spread yourself...

    I wouldn't bother w/Mental Toughness; you can't afford to squander the feats and between Echoes of Power (Magical Training) and Spellsong Vigor, you shouldn't ever run outta SPs (tho you may have to be patient to wait for them to regen).

    Oh, and I would definitely pick up Inspire Excellence as your first epic feat. EDIT: also farm up eElyd ASAP; trust me, you really want Inspiring Echoes.
    Last edited by unbongwah; 10-28-2013 at 09:12 PM.
    Revisiting the Classics: Axesinger / Dwarven Defender / Drow Ninja / Drow Paladin / Elven Ranger / Monkcher / Sacred Vanguard
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  17. #37
    Community Member Zachski's Avatar
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    Hm... actually, Sonic Blast does sound like a more solid choice. I forgot that even Sonic Blast can deal significant damage early on.

    As far as Heal goes, Heal does provide negative energy power, which can be slightly useful for Wail once I get it. You don't get negative energy power from Warchanter.

    By the way, is Sustaining Song a good investment once I switch over from Warchanter to Spellsinger? Because I kinda wants it.

    Also... Force of Personality? Strange, I see a lot of people against using it due to something about will saves not being important later on or something. I'll take that as my level 3 feat then.

    As far as THF affecting your strength bonus goes, it kinda does in a roundabout way. Your glancing damage isn't just applied to enemies around you, it's also applied to the enemy you're primarily fighting. At GTHF, you basically deal half again as much damage to the enemy per most of your swings, like basically a 50%? increase in damage on your autoattack.... and this is still applied to other enemies, too. That being said, I don't think I'll make good use out of it due to how low my strength will be in the end. That and I didn't plan on going beyond THF in the first place, which only "doubles" the glancing damage.

    I plan on replacing Cure Light Wounds with Master's Touch once I get to level 4. I'm not sure what all the spells I will take are, but I'll figure that out as I go.

    Also, I took the light wand at the beginning of the game because I found it useful on my Cleric, it deals slightly more damage than the fire wand, every other weapon was going to be obsolete very quickly, and it'll give me something to use against oozes.
    The guy who likes to experience every class. Except Fighter >:[ I don't like you Fighter.
    Hey Devs! Let's give Warpriests and Eldritch Knights some loving, kay? :<

  18. #38
    Community Member Steevye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    or blunt if you're an iconoclast who breaks all the rules.
    This made me lol.

    It's also true, I have built a character who (as a bard) used staves with the IC feat, nixing the need for master's touch. However these days I no longer break said rules...

    Good suggestions otherwise. I agree on spell pen having given it a second thought. I do know that trying to break SR in EE estar drow is a royal pain without it, and no matter how effin good your DCs are, if you don't break the SR shield...you just are as worthless as if you had a 29 DC.

    Personally I don't currently use heighten, though I'm debating it on a daily basis. I just don't use too many 4th level and under spells anymore, except crushing despair (which lands perfectly fine in EH and lower). Considering bards max out at 6th level spells, it just doesn't always seem worth it, and then I find myself wishing I had it, only to convince myself I don't need it... (repeat ad nauseum).

    Sonic spells worked really, really well for me up until level 8 and above, then they became relevant again from about 14-18, then moot afterward. I still use Greater shout like shiradis use MM, though, and mostly because by the time I'm into battle the mobs are at least at a -4 fort save disadvantage from my initial onslaught of debuffs. The stuns are nice as they allow for sneak attacks, but I still prefer hold monster 10 to 1 (especially since the DC for that spell is considerably higher than greater shout's is on my toon, and it allows for a 50% dmg increase).

    Did I mention I love bards?
    “Bodies wear out to remind us they are temporary, and force us to spend more thought on our spirits”
    ? Morgan Llywelyn, Bard: The Odyssey of the Irish

  19. #39
    Community Member Steevye's Avatar
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    I really have tried farming the epic elyd edge...any hints or suggestions? I cannot get a single shard or seal to land at all...period....at least 50 tide turns later....

    EDIT:

    FoP is a bad thing? Never heard that, I've only seen bards ever swear by it, and trust me, having played builds (non-bards) with ****ty will, I really like being invincible to casters (especially those pesky acolytes and priestesses....).

    Did not know that about THF...that's news to me. Never saw that increase on my barb, but then again I hardly paid attention to his dmg past a certain point where every hit was monstrous anyway...

    Sustaining song: I always toggle this...always. Why not? It lasts 7 minutes at level 26 and it does anywhere from 3-9 positive heals every second...I mean, that's not a cleric's aura or anything, but it's free heals and it's a group wide buff. If it were individually applied, screw it, don't take it. Otherwise though, there have been times where I made a terrible, stupid error and was lying prone on the ground and it got me back up so I could launch a heal. Also, it's nice for swimming. You never need underwater action while it's going, I promise. I used it in thorn hollow during the long swim part and never needed a single breath, and I no longer waste an item slot or swap anything out when I go swimming. It rocks.
    Last edited by Steevye; 10-28-2013 at 09:26 PM.
    “Bodies wear out to remind us they are temporary, and force us to spend more thought on our spirits”
    ? Morgan Llywelyn, Bard: The Odyssey of the Irish

  20. #40
    Community Member Zachski's Avatar
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    Okay, one thing.

    Sonic Blast + Cleave = Win. It's an excellent combination. I love it. A lot.

    I might go for spell pen... I don't know though. I probably should, actually, if only for Wail (which I'm going to humorously consider the "Negative Level Song that uses SP" instead of the "Instant Death Spell")

    So far, this is enjoyable. MUCH more enjoyable than if I had taken Master's Touch as my first spell (funny how it makes such a difference.)

    Now if only spell casting animations used the lute or singing instead of the same generic casting animation as everyone else... XD
    The guy who likes to experience every class. Except Fighter >:[ I don't like you Fighter.
    Hey Devs! Let's give Warpriests and Eldritch Knights some loving, kay? :<

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