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  1. #1
    Community Member soloist12's Avatar
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    Default MMO Player Losses and DDO

    It's not a secret that the genre is bleeding players because of compromising game play and utterly brutal development decisions these days, and Turbine is almost at the front of the line.

    Rule number 1: Listen to your players - we know your game better than you do, and we know what we like. We don't want easy, we don't want instant grat, and we don't want solo ghost towns. That's why we're here and not playing Skyrim. If you have 5 or more pages of negativity (examples being the random loot gen outrage in beta, and now the TR debacle), you don't know how your game works.

    We're at an all time playerbase low right now for several reasons, and I'll list the major ones for the zillionith time, as many players have already:

    - No End Game: Means nothing to aspire towards, lowers motivation
    - The Random Loot Disaster: When that one dev stepped in to make several "improved named loot" after our first outcry, most of them were even worse
    The above 2 issues fold into one: Less content to run, no loot to farm, no shard/seal/scroll system to keep players socially playing together through lengthier carrot systems and grouping together (just lolbuy it), and no incentive raids worth doing
    - Don't marginalize loot so quickly: Some of us didn't even finish farming eGH yet when you made 90% of it obsolete. It's far better to offer side-options than to drastically increase quality (really, +3 stat upgrades in one update?)
    - +5 tomes in the store: Extremely hard find in-game, not to mention the best currently. Less raids being run for them and another mark on the reasons-to-quit player belt

    - In-your-bloody-face-everywhere-you-look-spend-turbine-points: Guys, you're a company that needs funds to continue. We know, but this shoddy advertising is getting ridiculous. Everything these days is image and perception, and you're looking grabby when you go to the lengths you have in-game of late. I'll gladly pay for the good stuff, stop shoving bad stuff at me every turn. If you want your numbers to increase, stop making ******** decisions in game design.
    - Quest Quality: Long gone are the beautys like Wiz King and Crucible (quests on such a grand scale that really did "wow" me my first time through). The funny part is, if the loot is good, we'll do any quest... (HINT HINT)

    - Your desire to land new players since motu has chased more paying veterans away than gained new f2p recruits: Stop listening to the suits and go back to the basics. We lost half our raiding/TR guild between motu and shadowfell, and recruited several more (from other vet guilds that collapsed, not new players to the game). DDO players know what they like, this is a niche game. It's unlike Lotro where they saw the movie, read the books, and heard about the game so it should appeal to everyone (another issue with mmo's these days - multi-directional/zero focus/no identity). Don't try and wow-ify it - we already have Neverwinter, Rift, GW2, and soon ESO for that type of gameplay. For Pete's sake, LET ddo stand apart.

    I'm not an expert on the subject by any means, but the above is my perception over time. In my opinion, your focus should be dignity and keeping the players you already have, and keep doing things right. Lately you've been selling out, chasing long-time paying players away with bizarre off-the-wall game decisions, and turning in new directions. Your game has no focus anymore, it's all over the map (AC in ee).


    Time and time again I see companies making these same mistakes, such that it can't be the devs calling the shots when it damn well should be, with a bit of player input on the side. Remember, we're in this together..

  2. #2
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soloist12 View Post
    Don't marginalize loot so quickly: Some of us didn't even finish farming eGH yet when you made 90% of it obsolete. It's far better to offer side-options than to drastically increase quality (really, +3 stat upgrades in one update?)
    I agree that whoever is in charge of loot needs to be reassigned. There was ZERO reason to jump to +10 and +11 stat items... The powergamers would have been happy to grind for weeks to get +9, and the rest of us would have been happy with our +8 stuff. Jumping so far so fast destroyed most the named loot in the game, and you didn't replace it with anything.

    Plus what happened to all the old prefixes? The loot is really broken, and that needs to be fixed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  3. #3
    2014 DDO Players Council Flavilandile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soloist12 View Post
    [snip]
    TLDR;

    DDO is a Morgan in a world of Ford and Renault, don't make it like a Ford or a Renault, you'll just drive those that like the Morgan away, and it will definitely not appeal to those that like Ford and Renault.
    On G-Land : Flavilandile, Blacklock, Yaelle, Millishande, Larilandile, Gildalinde, Tenalafel, and many other...

  4. #4
    Community Member Lauf's Avatar
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    Well said and well written.

    I have been looking around for other MMOs lately, and there's nothing out there that plays like DDO.
    they'd be better off sticking to what they do and doing it better rather than being all over the place.

    when level 20 was the cap we used to have .. what, 8 raids? (eVon, eChrono, eDQ, LoB, MA, ToD, VoD, HoX)
    about 30-40% of the packs had epic versions, and updates were creating more high level content (18-20)

    since the decision to start raising the cap, we have fewer active raids, fewer active quests, and updates keep rolling things higher rather than wider.
    it should be of no surprise that players aren't enamored with the epic levels.

    DDO isn't WoW, in the sense that they don't seem to have enough of developmental power to generate fully fleshed out questing variety for the new levels. This is why I feel that rather than trying to follow in WoW footsteps with expansions continually raising the level cap, DDO would be better off widening the base for the levels they already have (TRing is a brilliant option, allowing them to be replayed) by adding more quests, raids, and making more packs epic.

    eGH was a classic example of how players enjoy old packs going epic, and how Turbine fumbles the ball by raising the level cap and making their developmental efforts in creating eGH go to waste.

    lets hope they wise up soon...

  5. #5
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soloist12 View Post
    It's not a secret that the genre is bleeding players because of compromising game play and utterly brutal development decisions these days, and Turbine is almost at the front of the line.

    Source? Or just another opinion?

  6. #6
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    Source?
    Did you miss the front page of the forums. There are a couple unhappy players right now. DDO at least is not doing a good job of player retention and happiness.

    When your playerbase is happier when you DON'T release a new update and they scramble to play the current game before new changes come into effect, you are doing something wrong.
    Kaarloe - Degenerate Matter - Argonnessen

  7. #7
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    Did you miss the front page of the forums. There are a couple unhappy players right now. DDO at least is not doing a good job of player retention and happiness.

    When your playerbase is happier when you DON'T release a new update and they scramble to play the current game before new changes come into effect, you are doing something wrong.


    DDO forums, which represents less than 5% of the player base, is hardly a valid source for a statement like "the genre [MMOs] is bleeding players because of compromising game play and utterly brutal development decisions these days."


    "I don't like it!" is not a valid basis for concluding the MMO genre is bleeding players, just as "I like it!" is not a valid basis for concluding MMOs are growing in population overall.


    Link to a credible source and you have a credible argument. Anything else is opinion, guessing, and possibly slander.
    Last edited by Postumus; 10-19-2013 at 05:22 PM.

  8. #8
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    Did you miss the front page of the forums. There are a couple unhappy players right now. DDO at least is not doing a good job of player retention and happiness.
    Our Forums have a terrible record at predicting player happiness and retention.

    For seven years, the forums have been steady full of doom, and player happiness has gone up and down.

    I don't disagree that Turbine has been making some poor choices lately, but doom has ALWAYS been proclaimed on these forums by the same people for years, so the number of doom posts means nearly nothing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  9. #9
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Our Forums have a terrible record at predicting player happiness and retention.

    For seven years, the forums have been steady full of doom, and player happiness has gone up and down.

    I don't disagree that Turbine has been making some poor choices lately, but doom has ALWAYS been proclaimed on these forums by the same people for years, so the number of doom posts means nearly nothing.
    I agree that often times, the doom posts don't mean much. I can tell when an issue is hot enough to get Turbine's attention, no matter what. This current TR issue is one of those times. The last one was probably the destiny xp wipe proposal. Others would include offer wall and the cannith crafting proposal using raid loot.

    There are your everyday DOOOOOOOOMMMMMMM!!!!! threads and then there are your serious doom threads. This is one of those serious ones and it doesn't take a genius to see this is a bit different than the average doom thread.
    Kaarloe - Degenerate Matter - Argonnessen

  10. #10
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    It's funny how often people say the tone of the forums doesn't represent that of players in general -- yet I never see the overwhelming negativity on other games' forums that I see here.

  11. #11
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    I agree that often times, the doom posts don't mean much. I can tell when an issue is hot enough to get Turbine's attention, no matter what. This current TR issue is one of those times. The last one was probably the destiny xp wipe proposal. Others would include offer wall and the cannith crafting proposal using raid loot.

    There are your everyday DOOOOOOOOMMMMMMM!!!!! threads and then there are your serious doom threads. This is one of those serious ones and it doesn't take a genius to see this is a bit different than the average doom thread.
    I agree with that...
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  12. #12
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    It's funny how often people say the tone of the forums doesn't represent that of players in general -- yet I never see the overwhelming negativity on other games' forums that I see here.

    It's just as bad on the GW2, NWO, SWTOR, and WOW forums. You must never visit those. The Diablo 3 forums has had some incredible raging in the past.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    It's just as bad on the GW2, NWO, SWTOR, and WOW forums. You must never visit those.
    Yes, I do, and no, it's not. Complaints? Yes. Large swaths of the playerbase royally ticked off over bonehead moves and posting cancellation screenshots? Not that I've seen.

  14. #14
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post

    There are your everyday DOOOOOOOOMMMMMMM!!!!! threads and then there are your serious doom threads. This is one of those serious ones and it doesn't take a genius to see this is a bit different than the average doom thread.

    Which has nothing to do with my point.


    Posting unsubstantiated hyperbole is foolish and detracts from whatever point the poster may have. Leading off with "the entire genre is bleeding players" to try make a point about a specific DDO change is a terrible strategy.


    Obviously a number of players don't like the proposed change as it is, but trying to link it to unsubstantiated claims regarding the 'entire genre' or all of DDO is just ridiculous. Maybe it takes a genius to realize that?

  15. #15
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    Yes, I do, and no, it's not. Complaints? Yes. Large swaths of the playerbase royally ticked off over bonehead moves and posting cancellation screenshots? Not that I've seen.

    Since they close or erase the most vocal threads, just as they do here, it's hard for me to prove their official boards can be even worse. Suffice it to say, I disagree with you and that in my opinion, based on what I've seen, players from all MMOs seem to rage and whine just as much as they do here.

    Usually right around an update or patch or exposed exploit.

    But maybe the Chinese MMOs are different. I can't read those.

  16. #16
    2016 DDO Players Council LeoLionxxx's Avatar
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    Default We are the 5%!

    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    DDO forums, which represents less than 5% of the player base, is hardly a valid source for a statement like "the genre [MMOs] is bleeding players because of compromising game play and utterly brutal development decisions these days."
    Except, of that 5%, we have a sample of all the types of players. Say in game there are 10000 people who don't like something and 2000 that do, that's 500/100 players who are on the forums (ya, my numbers are screwy, sue me). Thus feedback, as seen on the forum, is indeed an accurate reflection of the overall community.


    Regarding the OP, I must agree. This game seems to be loosing stream fast by deliberately putting up roadblocks on its own. Unattractive additions like the re-roll loot option, too mush OP loot (power creep), and the like are adding more salt to the wounds; and now the drastic and unwarranted proposed change to TR, which is one of DDO's more attractive features, is destined to become another catastrophe.
    Because DDO content is created by hand, some issues cannot be fixed with a global change. We must fix these issues one-by-one by hand with the help of bug reports. This includes:
    Ladder issues: please include the /loc when reporting a ladder issue

  17. #17
    Founder Firepants's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flavilandile View Post
    TLDR;

    DDO is a Morgan in a world of Ford and Renault, don't make it like a Ford or a Renault, you'll just drive those that like the Morgan away, and it will definitely not appeal to those that like Ford and Renault.
    Terrible analogy.

  18. #18
    Community Member soloist12's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    Which has nothing to do with my point.


    Posting unsubstantiated hyperbole is foolish and detracts from whatever point the poster may have. Leading off with "the entire genre is bleeding players" to try make a point about a specific DDO change is a terrible strategy.


    Obviously a number of players don't like the proposed change as it is, but trying to link it to unsubstantiated claims regarding the 'entire genre' or all of DDO is just ridiculous. Maybe it takes a genius to realize that?

    You're absolutely right. I was very generalist at the start, but as my OP goes on, you can see where I was going with it. Substitute genre for this game and you can see my point. There is a great discussion here that reflects how I feel about Turbine's choices of late and really recommend even reading some of it. I really respect the company that continues to focus on and develop for their original audience, rather than flip the script with their attempts to cater to everybody. The side of effect of keeping true is a good game with logical dev decisions and is incredibly fun for it's target audience, and players will recommend it out to like-minded friends. You may not get as many new players, but you're much more likely to keep what you have long-term.

    As a side note, WoW continues to bleed, which I rather relish. I hope there are some companies out there that realize it's not the "golden child" anymore and come up with original ideas again, perhaps even with some risk involved.

  19. #19
    Community Member Grosbeak07's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    It's funny how often people say the tone of the forums doesn't represent that of players in general -- yet I never see the overwhelming negativity on other games' forums that I see here.
    I sure do.
    Magical Rings are well... magical. - Gandalf

  20. #20
    Community Member Satyriasys's Avatar
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    Well said op
    Join Date: Nov 2009

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