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  1. #1
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    Default Cleave with two-handed weapons?

    Basically, what is more beneficial to take early? Cleave or improved two-handed weapon fighting, and why? And how exactly cleave and glancing blows work together?

  2. #2
    Community Member Kayla93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3dent View Post
    Basically, what is more beneficial to take early? Cleave or improved two-handed weapon fighting, and why? And how exactly cleave and glancing blows work together?
    I have no idea how cleave and glancing blows work together but...
    *10% more dmg with glancing blow (so up to 30% of what u normally hit) and 3% chance of them to land - and if im not mistaken - they cannot crit.
    vs
    *every 5 secs +1W to and hit to all mobs around you.
    Seems pretty obvious.
    If there are even only 2-3 mobs I think hitting them all at once every 5 secs is waaaay better than the first option than 3% for 30% base dmg :P You just have to learn to spam it whenever you can.

  3. #3
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    cleave and great cleave are addictive and fun and effective. get both asap

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kayla93 View Post
    I have no idea how cleave and glancing blows work together but...
    Just fine. You can get the cleave hit AND the glancing blow on the same mob with one swing, sometimes.

    Noticed that on a toon with GTHF, should check if it's doing that on my non-GTHF cleaving toons too.
    No longer completely f2p as of November 2014. Father of 3 more DDO players so far (I do have more children than that).
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  5. #5

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    Cleave is better than the entire THF line. Not to say that the THF line isn't worth having as well, of course, just that you'll want both cleave and great cleave (if you plan to take both) before you take your first THF feat.

    The THF line isn't particularly useful until it's maxed out with GTHF. Meaning if you aren't planning on taking all 3, don't take any. Taking all 3 is very good, and should be strived for, but they can safely be pushed back very, very late. Finishing the THF line in epic levels is often fine, though generally you'll see GTHF taken by 18 in most builds that take it.

  6. #6
    Community Member gravisrs's Avatar
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    Cleave - you hit all mobs in 90degree arc in front of you with +1[W], but this action has a cooldown of 5 seconds so can't use it every swing
    Greater Cleave - you hit all mobs in 180degree arc in front of you with +2[W], but this action has also a cooldown of 5 seconds so can't use it every swing


    Both of above produces glance attacks in addition to their full attack of every mob in front of you. So it stacks pretty well with glancing power (2h feats).

    Best practice is to go to Greater cleave ASAP coz it's better damage per second (see below) is better than 4 hits of improved glancing hits) to group of mobs and then go for 2h feats to make it even better.
    There is also Whirlwind but requires 4 prerequiste feats but imo not worth it.

    5 second sequence comparison:

    With greater cleave/cleave:
    greater cleave - hit all of the mobs in front of you with 300% (+ 100% effects) + 20% glancing blows
    cleave - hit most of the mobs in front of you with 200% (+ 100% effects) + 20% glancing blows
    normal swing slashing 1 = 100% to one mob + 20% glancing blow
    normal swing thrust 2 = 100% to one mob
    normal swing thrust 3 = 100% to one mob
    normal swing slashing 4 = 100% to one mob + 20% glancing blow
    normal swing slashing 1 = 100% to one mob + 20% glancing blow
    == total 1040% (+700% effects) to focused mob and 600% (+200% effects) to others.

    With 2h fighting + improved 2h fighting (assuming u have that +6 BAB requirement, coz I'm just comparing 2 feats vs 2 other feats)
    normal swing slashing 1 = 100% to one mob + 40% glancing blow (+6% effects)
    normal swing thrust 2 = 100% to one mob
    normal swing thrust 3 = 100% to one mob
    normal swing slashing 4 = 100% to one mob + 40% glancing blow (+6% effects)
    normal swing slashing 1 = 100% to one mob + 40% glancing blow (+6% effects)
    normal swing thrust 2 = 100% to one mob
    normal swing thrust 3 = 100% to one mob
    normal swing slashing 4 = 100% to one mob + 40% glancing blow (+6% effects)
    == total 800% (+800% effects) to focused mob + 160% (+36% effects) other mobs

    So even when fighting 2 mobs it's better to cleave/greater cleave. Even more worth it if you have any effect on weapon.
    Meh, even single mob it's better coz of that +1[W] +2[W].

    Even later if your weapon has more than one dice base dmg (like greensteeel having 1.5[W] etc.) It's still much more effective.


    And of course best is to have all 4 feats:

    greater cleave - hit all of the mobs in front of you with 300% (+ 100% effects) + 40% glancing blows (+6% effects)
    cleave - hit most of the mobs in front of you with 200% (+ 100% effects) + 40% glancing blows (+6% effects)
    normal swing slashing 1 = 100% to one mob + 40% glancing blows (+6% effects)
    normal swing thrust 2 = 100% to one mob
    normal swing thrust 3 = 100% to one mob
    normal swing slashing 4 = 100% to one mob + 40% glancing blows (+6% effects)
    normal swing slashing 1 = 100% to one mob + 40% glancing blows (+6% effects)
    == total 1040% (+700% effects) to focused mob and 800% (+230% effects) to others.


    The only thing you have to learn is to use that cleave/greater cleave every 5 seconds. I usually hotkey my primary attack to E-key, greater cleave to R-key and cleave T-key.
    Last edited by gravisrs; 10-21-2013 at 11:36 AM.
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  7. #7
    Community Member Lonnbeimnech's Avatar
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    You also dont proc glancing blows if you move. Really the whole thf line is weak compared to twf line. Meaning that a twf absolutely must have all twf feats, but on a thf, they are nice to have if you can squeeze them in, but really they are meh.

  8. #8
    Community Member AbyssalMage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnbeimnech View Post
    You also dont proc glancing blows if you move. Really the whole thf line is weak compared to twf line. Meaning that a twf absolutely must have all twf feats, but on a thf, they are nice to have if you can squeeze them in, but really they are meh.
    This ^

    Honestly the only class I have seen run the THF line are fighters and that is because they have a ton of feats to spare. I have seen flavor builds with the THF line but that is about it.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by gravisrs View Post
    5 second sequence comparison:
    The sequence was faulty originally, and it was edited to the worse. Conclusions are valid: cleave/great cleave early are good, but the numbers are way off.

    1) The extra [W] from cleaves doesn't increase damage that much, it only adds the weapon base damage again. It's extra, but for this kind of napkin math it's irrelevant. Great cleave on a carnifex doesn't do triple damage, it doesan extra 2d12.
    2) The glancing blow damage hits the single target as well, not just the others.

    The power of cleaves in a multi-target situation is so big, that it's a no-brainer, especially early on. Cleave + Great cleave to kill a pack of 5 kobolds instead of 10 swings, yes please. Two-handed feats add dps, but it's more of a nice-to-have thing than a mandatory feat-line in any way or form.

  10. #10
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    Thanks everyone. Frankly, my biggest issue with cleaves is remembering to actually use them instead of mashing basic attack if the target didn't drop dead the first time I used them... But I guess that's something I'll learn eventually.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by mna View Post
    Just fine. You can get the cleave hit AND the glancing blow on the same mob with one swing, sometimes.
    Just one slight addition here. For some reason quarterstaves do not get glancing blows on cleaves/great cleaves. They do on normal attacks but not cleaves. All other THF weapons do.
    Tajawuka 20 Bladeforged Paladin running divine ETR's (3 ranger/monk/fighter pl's, 3 martial epl's) - Toolbots working on Morninglord Cleric life #2 (3 wizard/sorc/druid pl) - Evisra 28 rogue

  12. #12
    Community Member Ykt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3dent View Post
    Thanks everyone. Frankly, my biggest issue with cleaves is remembering to actually use them instead of mashing basic attack if the target didn't drop dead the first time I used them... But I guess that's something I'll learn eventually.
    Keep left mouse button pressed and cycle Cleave/Great Cleave every 5 seconds.

    Cleave in Waterworks = 10 dead kobolds in 1 swing

  13. #13
    Community Member AbyssalMage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by era42 View Post
    The sequence was faulty originally, and it was edited to the worse. Conclusions are valid: cleave/great cleave early are good, but the numbers are way off.

    1) The extra [W] from cleaves doesn't increase damage that much, it only adds the weapon base damage again. It's extra, but for this kind of napkin math it's irrelevant. Great cleave on a carnifex doesn't do triple damage, it doesan extra 2d12.
    2) The glancing blow damage hits the single target as well, not just the others.

    The power of cleaves in a multi-target situation is so big, that it's a no-brainer, especially early on. Cleave + Great cleave to kill a pack of 5 kobolds instead of 10 swings, yes please. Two-handed feats add dps, but it's more of a nice-to-have thing than a mandatory feat-line in any way or form.
    All those +W[X] add up and stack. After the crit multiplier, this is the next thing I look at on new weapons now.

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