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  1. #761
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post

    There is no chance Turbine every intended for us to run 500 hours of quests to get a heart through game play which is more time than it takes to cap all epic destines. Producer Glin's twitter feed supports that as does his forum posts. No, I don't think it was ever going to live that way.
    If that's the case, why do you think they put such arbitrarily high numbers in there? If they had absolutely no intention of shipping it with high numbers, all they have done is create more ill-will.

    Personally I think they put high numbers in for this reason:

    If no complaints, leave it as is and ship it. If there are complaints, titrate it down slowly until you get to highest maximum number all while achieving acceptable levels of "pain". Personally that's the wrong way to go about it as well.

  2. #762
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drwaz99 View Post
    Personally I think they put high numbers in for this reason:

    If no complaints, leave it as is and ship it. If there are complaints, titrate it down slowly until you get to highest maximum number all while achieving acceptable levels of "pain". Personally that's the wrong way to go about it as well.
    You forgot one:

    If people like it, raise the amounts until they don't, then release it. *cough* augments vendors *cough*

  3. #763
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    I don't think the bridge protest is a bad thing, I just think we would be in the same place we are now without it. I want to see changes, but I don't think sitting on a bridge is going to persuade Turbine to make a change.
    What sitting on the bridge did was garner alot of outside interest in the happenings - quelling the ability to attempt to ghostbane their way out of this by acting like there wasnt any real disagreement in the first place. Its even been posted by Turbine employees in the past that the forumites are a much smaller subset of players, but now they arent just dealing with forumites, they are dealing with forumites, people on FB, reddit, all the media outlets that gave it attention, etc. Its not a self contained entity that they can control by closing off threads in order to exagerate the lack of support as "just a couple of moaners on the forums".

    Customer feedback will persuade them from making the change. The sit in and the attention it garnered demonstrated it is a real issue and not something to just blow off like the rants after each update.

  4. #764
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drwaz99 View Post
    If that's the case, why do you think they put such arbitrarily high numbers in there? If they had absolutely no intention of shipping it with high numbers, all they have done is create more ill-will.

    Personally I think they put high numbers in for this reason:

    If no complaints, leave it as is and ship it. If there are complaints, titrate it down slowly until you get to highest maximum number all while achieving acceptable levels of "pain". Personally that's the wrong way to go about it as well.
    The reason this isnt the way to go about doing it is because its poor business practice to give customers something for a long period of time then take it away from them. The ease of acquisition of TR hearts has been around for ~3 years now. They would have had better reception making them super hard to get in game back in the day and just leaving it that way, rather than making them easier to get for 3 years then nerfing the ease of acquisition.

    Couple that with the fact that they have been messing with stuff already in game alot lately, when many feel they could be using that time to give us new content in addition to what we already have rather than nerfing and replacing what is already there, then giving us 2 quests in the next update - which clearly demonstrates where the people hours are being spent.

  5. #765
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drwaz99 View Post
    If that's the case, why do you think they put such arbitrarily high numbers in there? If they had absolutely no intention of shipping it with high numbers, all they have done is create more ill-will.

    Personally I think they put high numbers in for this reason:

    If no complaints, leave it as is and ship it. If there are complaints, titrate it down slowly until you get to highest maximum number all while achieving acceptable levels of "pain". Personally that's the wrong way to go about it as well.
    They will always put high numbers in because any future attempt to increase the value would be viewed as a nerf. They learned to start high and work your way down. If they don't have a clue what the # should be make it ridiculously high as a placeholder. And that's exactly what they did in this case. From the dev discussion, it's clear they haven't even put much though into the # yet.

  6. #766
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cauthey_No_CCInfo View Post
    While the protest has accomplished some things, I am just afraid that any real wins here are fleeting. We certainly get their attention, and got them to come to the table. However, I feel that maybe we have "raised the bar" on the kind of actions it will take to get them to the table again. And now, to get them to listen to us for the next time, it will require a full-scale protest, and perhaps even more.
    No my friend, I can speak for no one but myself, but I say "No more" in this front. This is as far as I will go, and I am already appalled that Turbine has pushed us this far to begin with.
    Last edited by Ungood; 10-23-2013 at 01:13 PM. Reason: stupid [size]

  7. #767

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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    They will always put high numbers in because any future attempt to increase the value would be viewed as a nerf. They learned to start high and work your way down. If they don't have a clue what the # should be make it ridiculously high as a placeholder. And that's exactly what they did in this case. From the dev discussion, it's clear they haven't even put much though into the # yet.
    This started before the 'high numbers' They were simply the final nail in the coffin. It's all of it; get rid of tokens, replace with a btc currency, the awful numbers like an arbitrary 2000 to Epic reincarnate? to only getting this through sagas and nowhere else.

    This wasn't just a question of terrible arbitrary numbers, it was the absolute naked attempt to string cheese something people wanted (reincarnation - just read the interest when it was first announced) through a set of quests that Turbine wants a better return on.

    I mean the whole thing screams 'BUY FR' like nothing. And to remove tokens/shards from Web of Chaos (2 being F2P quests and only source of tokens/shards for F2P players)?

    This is not a question of grind; that existed even at the start of the old epic system and added TR feature. This is a question of making the alternative to buying a TR so mindbogglingly terrible that buying seems like the only sane thing to do. Either buying the products that allows you to complete sagas OR buy a TR outright.

    And you know what; had Turbine not made this process such a naked cash grab then I suspect a lot of people would've bought a TR anyways. I did in the beginning.

  8. #768
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    They will always put high numbers in because any future attempt to increase the value would be viewed as a nerf. They learned to start high and work your way down. If they don't have a clue what the # should be make it ridiculously high as a placeholder. And that's exactly what they did in this case. From the dev discussion, it's clear they haven't even put much though into the # yet.
    Its clear they havent learned one bit, because if they did they wouldnt have allowed them to be easily earned for 3 years before making the change. They started at almost free, and now 3+ years later are increasing the time sync, is what is peeving people.

  9. #769
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    Quote Originally Posted by patang01 View Post
    This started before the 'high numbers' They were simply the final nail in the coffin. It's all of it; get rid of tokens, replace with a btc currency, the awful numbers like an arbitrary 2000 to Epic reincarnate? to only getting this through sagas and nowhere else.

    This wasn't just a question of terrible arbitrary numbers, it was the absolute naked attempt to string cheese something people wanted (reincarnation - just read the interest when it was first announced) through a set of quests that Turbine wants a better return on.

    I mean the whole thing screams 'BUY FR' like nothing. And to remove tokens/shards from Web of Chaos (2 being F2P quests and only source of tokens/shards for F2P players)?

    This is not a question of grind; that existed even at the start of the old epic system and added TR feature. This is a question of making the alternative to buying a TR so mindbogglingly terrible that buying seems like the only sane thing to do. Either buying the products that allows you to complete sagas OR buy a TR outright.

    And you know what; had Turbine not made this process such a naked cash grab then I suspect a lot of people would've bought a TR anyways. I did in the beginning.
    I don't agree with what they are doing. I think they will come around before U20 is released.

  10. #770
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patang01 View Post
    This started before the 'high numbers' They were simply the final nail in the coffin. It's all of it; get rid of tokens, replace with a btc currency, the awful numbers like an arbitrary 2000 to Epic reincarnate? to only getting this through sagas and nowhere else.

    This wasn't just a question of terrible arbitrary numbers, it was the absolute naked attempt to string cheese something people wanted (reincarnation - just read the interest when it was first announced) through a set of quests that Turbine wants a better return on.

    I mean the whole thing screams 'BUY FR' like nothing. And to remove tokens/shards from Web of Chaos (2 being F2P quests and only source of tokens/shards for F2P players)?

    This is not a question of grind; that existed even at the start of the old epic system and added TR feature. This is a question of making the alternative to buying a TR so mindbogglingly terrible that buying seems like the only sane thing to do. Either buying the products that allows you to complete sagas OR buy a TR outright.

    And you know what; had Turbine not made this process such a naked cash grab then I suspect a lot of people would've bought a TR anyways. I did in the beginning.
    Yeap exactly.

    The better approach would be to concentrate on the quality of the game being the major attraction, and then people want to TR because they actually want to play the game.

    What we got instead was an expansion that was barely larger than a regular update, no raid, and a new update that is 2 quests in size, ghostbane-ing of the entire loot tables, and then when people didnt like it and some didnt buy it, they attempt to change the system to make it necessary to buy it to farm TR hearts.

    So not that endgame is in decline they want us to TR, but want to leverage that it is much easier to just pay for a heart than grinding one out. The error in marketing is that lack of focus on the quality of the game doesnt make people want to repeatedly run through it like its a hamster wheel. No focus on endgame? Why do I need all these bonuses on my toons for.

  11. #771
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Its clear they havent learned one bit, because if they did they wouldnt have allowed them to be easily earned for 3 years before making the change. They started at almost free, and now 3+ years later are increasing the time sync, is what is peeving people.
    Actually they started as store only iirc and this was accepted as it was an add-on feature to the game. Then they were added to the epic token turn ins, when epics were quite a bit tougher. Then added to challenge turn ins, likely to prompt sales of the over-priced challenge pack. When epic normal, hard, elite, even casual, were added they became extremely easy to get.

    The fact of the matter is they have been progressively training us to consider free TRs to be the norm. Trying to reverse this trend in one step is where the backlash is coming from. To the point of posters believing the change is about getting more players to run sagas without even considering that it is to make the ddo store the primary source of reincarnation hearts.

  12. #772
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    Actually they started as store only iirc and this was accepted as it was an add-on feature to the game. Then they were added to the epic token turn ins, when epics were quite a bit tougher. Then added to challenge turn ins, likely to prompt sales of the over-priced challenge pack. When epic normal, hard, elite, even casual, were added they became extremely easy to get.
    They have been available in the 12 since the very beginning.

    From way back in 2009....

    Quote Originally Posted by Tolero View Post
    As part of our new Reincarnation system, we're previewing the True Reincarnation on Lamannia!
    <snip>

    A character must be level 20 to True Reincarnate, and must speak with Kruz the reincarnation trainer in House Jorasco. Kruz requires a True Heart of Wood to perform a reincarnation. True Hearts of Wood can be purchased in the DDO Store, or earned by collecting epic tokens in the new Epic difficulty dungeons.

    <snip>

  13. #773
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krelar View Post
    They have been available in the 12 since the very beginning.

    From way back in 2009....
    Hmm, my memory must be failing as I thought TRing predated epic content by a bit, good thing I qualified my statement. Still the point holds. In 2009 epics were a lot more challenging than epic normal, or casual, is today or has been for the last year+. At least from the standpoint of going from little surplus tokens anytime before MotU to having the ~200 in my bags today. At least for me, a heart isn't even something that needs be farmed for, just had from the tokens I pick up anyway.

  14. #774
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    Hmm, my memory must be failing as I thought TRing predated epic content by a bit, good thing I qualified my statement. Still the point holds. In 2009 epics were a lot more challenging than epic normal, or casual, is today or has been for the last year+. At least from the standpoint of going from little surplus tokens anytime before MotU to having the ~200 in my bags today. At least for me, a heart isn't even something that needs be farmed for, just had from the tokens I pick up anyway.
    old epics were more challenging than EE. fun times, unless you were an archer, divine or arcane caster.

  15. #775
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    Actually they started as store only iirc and this was accepted as it was an add-on feature to the game. Then they were added to the epic token turn ins, when epics were quite a bit tougher. Then added to challenge turn ins, likely to prompt sales of the over-priced challenge pack. When epic normal, hard, elite, even casual, were added they became extremely easy to get.
    THey were always easy to get. Mass hold + autocrit wasnt hard, it was just extremely niche, and most players would not bow to the don of blanket immunities back then, so refused to run epics. Timers on epic quests were one day, but each quest gave one token with the tougher quests giving two tokens.

    Nowdays its insanely easy because normal and hard on epic is akin to normal and hard in heroics, and the timer is removed. Many quests give like ~35 token shards though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    The fact of the matter is they have been progressively training us to consider free TRs to be the norm. Trying to reverse this trend in one step is where the backlash is coming from. To the point of posters believing the change is about getting more players to run sagas without even considering that it is to make the ddo store the primary source of reincarnation hearts.
    Yes indeed. It a catch 22 for those who dont want to spend unless they feel they are getting quality for what they paid for.

    If someone didnt buy the expansion for instance, and they like to TR due to playing through the best content in this game (which is the stuff made in the first 2 years), now they have to either:

    Buy the expansion to farm hearts in it, as sagas use expansion quests on their lists, even though they previously decided to not buy it in the past.

    -or-

    Buy TR hearts directly from the store.

    Either way, now that end game is all but gone, TR was one thing that kept people playing, and now that alot of people got hooked, they are financially leveraging TRs by nerfing ease of acquisition of the hearts in game. THey are even making it easier to XP, as well as selling raw XP in the store.

    Congrats to those who adamantly supported the store over the game itself as the focus for financial success. They got what they wanted. Or did they? Most of their posts I see have been looking very similar to mine circa 2010-2011, when they were disagreeing with me.

  16. #776
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    Quote Originally Posted by MartinusWyllt View Post
    I'm not even there, cowboy. How about you strut about some more and tell everyone about how you're a "real" veteran in a game where there are likely a lot more vets around that just me and how everyone should "thank you" because you volunteered for service and, consequently, cashed those crappy paychecks?

    Unless you were drafted, of course, in which case what are you doing trolling in the first place?

    (You can submit your DD-214 with name/social blocked-out to actually prove it, btw, though no one cares, anyway.)
    Not sure why I am bothering explaining, but you obviously have the wrong idea, so I'll try:

    The vet reference was to show that I fight for things I believe in, and things that are important.
    Nothing more, nothing less.

    This issue is FAR from important. An owie on my finger is more important.

    If an issue actually matters, I am all for protesting.
    In a game, ridiculous.

  17. #777
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Yes indeed. It a catch 22 for those who dont want to spend unless they feel they are getting quality for what they paid for.

    If someone didnt buy the expansion for instance, and they like to TR due to playing through the best content in this game (which is the stuff made in the first 2 years), now they have to either:

    Buy the expansion to farm hearts in it, as sagas use expansion quests on their lists, even though they previously decided to not buy it in the past.

    -or-

    Buy TR hearts directly from the store.

    Either way, now that end game is all but gone, TR was one thing that kept people playing, and now that alot of people got hooked, they are financially leveraging TRs by nerfing ease of acquisition of the hearts in game. THey are even making it easier to XP, as well as selling raw XP in the store.

    Congrats to those who adamantly supported the store over the game itself as the focus for financial success. They got what they wanted. Or did they? Most of their posts I see have been looking very similar to mine circa 2010-2011, when they were disagreeing with me.
    Probably true. But I'm getting the impression that at this point they have no other real recourse. What was a worthwhile profit for Turbine simply isn't cutting it with WB who has better options to use DDOs budget on. So it's either be successful at cash grabs or drop to maintenance level or less.

  18. #778
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausdoerrt View Post
    Judging by the response, they'll be gone the second we're not looking. It'll be impossible to change anything at that time. It's important to negotiate all the details now, before the changes are live. This is nothing more than a trick to fool the disappointed players, one they've used consistently in the past.

    Except now there's a unique chance to overcome it. That's why I'd urge everyone who still opposes the core of the changes to stay on the bridge and remain active in the discussion.
    What's really funny is that you think it's a negotiation.

  19. #779
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    I'm sure I'm not alone in this, my new Wayfinder toon, "Fragment" was on the bridge very early on. I used my main/only account to create him; so long as he stands there I'm not playing and thus I'm not consuming and Turbine not profitting from me.

    It's not just about a show of solidarity it's about letting them see how their subscriptions and sales drop off. No adventuring means no XP or mana pots, it definitely means no hearts of wood purchased from us.

    The bridge sit-in also allows me to browse through a couple of upcoming MMO's I'm interested in. Sure, I would have subscribed to one in particular regardless, but now instead of just waiting for it to launch, I've got my hand up for beta and am getting pretty excited by it and frankly excited by the prospect of having a lot of the great DDO community come on over as they look for a new home as well.

    ...but for now I stand tall, ignoring common sense and my gut feelings, still hoping that the devs will see what they're doing to DDO. History shows us that despite the endless times tyrants have just steamrolled over the innocent, peaceful protest does occasionally work.

  20. #780
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uncleblue View Post
    Not sure why I am bothering explaining, but you obviously have the wrong idea, so I'll try:

    The vet reference was to show that I fight for things I believe in, and things that are important.
    Nothing more, nothing less.

    This issue is FAR from important. An owie on my finger is more important.

    If an issue actually matters, I am all for protesting.
    In a game, ridiculous.
    What you consider a game most of the players protesting consider a community, with a game interface. If this was "just a game" like skyrim for instance, id play through it once a year or so then shelve it. It may not matter to you, so its easy to make fun of it, even though it matters to someone else alot more than it matters to you.

    Paying customers providing feedback on what they want in the product they paid for, is never rediculous. To you its a game, to Turbine, what you call a game, is the entity that pays their bills and cuts their employees checks. This "game" is their income. This issue is far more important than those who mock it realize, due to lack of ability or willingness to realize that somethign that isnt really important to them, can be very important to someone else.

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