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  1. #681
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok.cry View Post
    You and I disagree about this. Many of us here would have quit DDO a long long time ago if we couldn't TR. This game would have died a long long time ago if TR wasn't there to keep us going. It is absolutely necessary to the continuation of this game.

    Agreed.
    I have about 2 or 3 toons on my tr short list.
    At this point though, it's a wait and see thing.
    If they screw the pooch on this, I'll find a new game to waste my time and money on.
    If they make it an acceptable change, I'll stick around.

  2. #682
    Community Member Arnhelm's Avatar
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    One of the things I'm waiting to hear is that Fragments and Tokens of The Twelve will continue to drop in Eberron Epic content. Producer Glin did not state that yesterday in his response, he merely said Heroic Hearts would still be available from Lahar in The Twelve.
    There is no free lunch.

  3. #683
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    Quote Originally Posted by Memnir View Post
    No it isn't. That's correct.

    Me, I hate TRing. Can't stand it, and have only done it once.


    For me, this is bigger then my gaming habits or how I feel about TRing though. For me, this is about a trend that has been evolving in DDO game design over the past year or so. This is a trend, and one I don't see stopping unless the Devs understand that it's something that players find unacceptable. I'm on the Bridge not because of this specific change - but because it's what DDO is becoming and will continue to become unless the tide can be turned.



    Am I big enough to turn the tide? No. No more then a pebble can stop a wave. But, this game has lots of pebbles to pile up. And hopefully, with a lot of us doing so on the Bridge right now, we can at least get the wave's attention and change it enough to matter.
    In other words, ur just wasting ur time. Have fun doing it.

  4. #684
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnhelm View Post
    One of the things I'm waiting to hear is that Fragments and Tokens of The Twelve will continue to drop in Eberron Epic content. Producer Glin did not state that yesterday in his response, he merely said Heroic Hearts would still be available from Lahar in The Twelve.
    they never said they would stop, they can still be used to buy augments. the only change they proposed was removing hearts from the trade in list.
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  5. #685
    Community Member Ausdoerrt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    Except that you are not factoring in how many players those other games have paying "something" and how many this one has. The vast majority of the costs for an MMO are static, the same regardless of whether they have 10 playing customers or 10 million. DDO seems to be a lot closer to the former than the latter.
    You are correct. Perhaps a look at WHY the game has so few players left is long overdue? Otherwise they're just feeding a vicious cycle. First thing a business should consider is how to make the product more attractive, not how to charge more.

    Rest of your posts pretty much describes how you can substitute money with time, and is of no consequence. TP/hour while favor farming is so low that even a minimum-wage job would give better opportunity cost.
    "People are stupid; given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. ... People's heads are full of knowledge, facts, and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true." Terry Goodkind

  6. #686
    Community Member Arnhelm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReaperAlexEU View Post
    they never said they would stop, they can still be used to buy augments. the only change they proposed was removing hearts from the trade in list.
    Good point. I hadn't considered that as a part of this change. Thank you.
    There is no free lunch.

  7. #687
    Community Member Kalimah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReaperAlexEU View Post
    they never said they would stop, they can still be used to buy augments. the only change they proposed was removing hearts from the trade in list.
    It would be nice if the augments were worth a ****.....I've got loads of tokens and frags..the aguments they can purchase are garbage.
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  8. #688
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    Quote Originally Posted by sha123 View Post
    In other words, ur just wasting ur time. Have fun doing it.
    You are the one wasting your time trying to discourage us.

  9. #689
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausdoerrt View Post
    You are correct. Perhaps a look at WHY the game has so few players left is long overdue? Otherwise they're just feeding a vicious cycle. First thing a business should consider is how to make the product more attractive, not how to charge more.
    Make a new game is about the only feasible answer. At 3 years old the f2p hybrid system worked to bring in new blood. At 6 even a FR expansion didn't really do much. At 7 there are to many games just shinier to expect any investment in bringing in new blood to be worth doing.

    Rest of your posts pretty much describes how you can substitute money with time, and is of no consequence. TP/hour while favor farming is so low that even a minimum-wage job would give better opportunity cost.
    Which is what I think they are aiming for. Spend a few bucks, over and above what TPs are earned getting to 20, or spend an inordinate amount of time grinding.

  10. #690
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok.cry View Post
    You and I disagree about this. Many of us here would have quit DDO a long long time ago if we couldn't TR. This game would have died a long long time ago if TR wasn't there to keep us going. It is absolutely necessary to the continuation of this game.
    If Turbine would not have untethered the financial success of the game from the quality of the game itself, there would be more quests, higher quality content, and better + higher quantity of loot being released on a regular basis. This is how all other MMOs do it.

    Instead, they pushed quality of the game as a profitable entity onto the back burner, and tethered the finalcial success of the game to store bought items. When this happened, some kind of hamster wheel was needed to keep players playing, because lack of attention to game quality was not going to do so.

    The only reason TRing was "needed" is because no other incentive existed to keep playing for many people who had done it all already. Had other incentive existed, like regular content releases and QoL patch focus, TRing would not have been needed in the first place.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  11. #691
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sha123 View Post
    In other words, ur just wasting ur time. Have fun doing it.
    Customers are the most important people in any business equation, and when they provide feedback about what they want in the product, it is never a waste of time.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  12. #692
    Community Member Ausdoerrt's Avatar
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    Well then, if anyone needed any more proof, Cordovan has made a post that makes the intentions of this change completely clear:

    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    In regards to Tokens of the Twelve: Tokens of the Twelve will continue to drop when Update 20 is released. One change will be that the Spinner of Shadows quest chain will no longer drop Tokens, since it is part of a Saga, so you'll get Commendations when you complete the Saga that these quests are a part of.
    Bolded for emphasis. Easy to see where this is going. It would appear that they don't care a lick about how many people they lose, and just seek to cut their losses. I will not purchase another TP in the game, and will enjoy it on and off until it becomes unplayable due to more bad decisions or server shutdown.

    P.S. A rather memorable 1000th post, I see.



    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    Make a new game is about the only feasible answer. At 3 years old the f2p hybrid system worked to bring in new blood. At 6 even a FR expansion didn't really do much. At 7 there are to many games just shinier to expect any investment in bringing in new blood to be worth doing.
    Actually, if we're to trust DDOracle, the game was doing quite well at MoTU release, which brought some new blood as well. It's the poor follow-up, the mess of bugs, and questionable newer content - i.e. the aftermath - which caused a mass exodus.

    Which is what I think they are aiming for. Spend a few bucks, over and above what TPs are earned getting to 20, or spend an inordinate amount of time grinding.
    This translates to a sad, slow death of the game while a handful of dedicated/addicted players prop it up until server upkeep becomes too much. Most will realize that ROI is better elsewhere, especially with so many highly anticipated MMO releases in late 2013/early 2014.
    "People are stupid; given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. ... People's heads are full of knowledge, facts, and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true." Terry Goodkind

  13. #693
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post

    Then take into account that TRing, in itself, isn't necessary to play and I don't see why so many think it's something they have some sort of right to do easily for free. What next, free server transfers or name changes?
    Nothing in this game is necessary to play. I don't have to level up to 4. I don't have to loot chests. I don't have to group. I don't have to play epic. I don't have to TR. I don't have to play at all. Saying players don't have to TR is the same as all these other things. It's a poor argument. Some choose not to do it and for some it's a core element of the game. There are no goals in an MMO other than what you set for yourself. I can't tell you what your game goals are, just as you can't change someone's mind about what their goals are. For some that includes TR currently.
    Last edited by redspecter23; 10-22-2013 at 12:37 PM.
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  14. #694
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    Quote Originally Posted by kazeikan View Post
    However, Scope33 you got to make your trolling less obvious to be effective. Come on, October join date and 3 posts.
    I spend most of my time re: DDO actually playing the game rather than posting. I'm weird that way.

  15. #695
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    Well none of this would have been a problem if people were happy to play post level 20 content. People are TRing because they enjoy the Pre level 20 quest a lot more as they
    are way more fun and less grindy. I also fail to see how this will help Turbine at all, people who are inclined to play F2P won't want to suddenly now pay for TR. If they TR at least there is a chance that they might buy a pack, or some premium content.

    Also I am sure TR characters make up the majority of newbies and low levels, and people reexperiencing the game from the start. Making TR cost real money will effectively put this cycle of players away, stuck at the end game with quests they do not want to be playing.

    I can see Turbines logic in doing this, but i'm afraid they will get some cash in exchange for basically shortening the life of DDO's remaining time (which could be their goal). We have no idea how much revenue they are getting at the moment, there are certainly alot of F2P players who live on packs purchased ages ago, who are not interested in buying epic level content.. Though I am P2P, I can imagine our number are limited and this may be coming from the top of WB wanting to see more profits from a legacy product well past it's expiry date.

    With the expansion content and epic levels being so low quality compared to pre level 20, its hard to imagine a way out for DDO. The only way to improve revenue is to get loyal players spending with quality content as good as the original DDO, or significantly revamp the new player experience and launch a marketing campaign (both which costs money that isn't justified on a game of this age). I do see DDO as a game thats fairly unique, has a lot of depth and lots of content, however Turbine has done a poor job of extending it unfortunately. I just wish the post level 20 content was more thought out.

  16. #696

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Customers are the most important people in any business equation, and when they provide feedback about what they want in the product, it is never a waste of time.
    This

    Maybe Turbine want to go back to operate out of a garage making freeware for friends and family but once you ignore customers the writing is on the wall.

    Some customers demands are of course silly but when so many echo the same it's a safe bet something is terribly wrong.

  17. #697
    Community Member Arnhelm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raidiant View Post
    ...I can see Turbines logic in doing this, but i'm afraid they will get some cash in exchange for basically shortening the life of DDO's remaining time (which could be their goal)...
    Somewhere they failed to see the benefit of now money vs the potential of future money. Econ 101.

    The now money is going away quickly if as many people are cancelling subs as seems to be the case. More, fewer Premium players will continue to spend money on a game that isn't fun for them due to forced running of P2P content.
    There is no free lunch.

  18. #698
    Community Member zDragonz's Avatar
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    Post Keep tokens and have sagas have tokens as rewards. Why switch to a new currency?

    My first post in this thread.

    I read what Glin had to say and I am assuming that tokens are going to be phased out in the future and a new form of currency is the ultimate goal. I am glad that the Twelve will still have the Heroic

    Hearts after the Update. I hope that the decision to keep the Heroic Hearts does not include taking them away after tokens are eventually phased out. What is the ultimate goal in having another

    currency? This just seems confusing and trying to fix something that is not broken. If I had any say in it, I would have the entire games' Epic content drop token fragments and still include one complete

    token in named chests or a d100 random roll of fragments just like it is now in Eberron. Sagas could also have 17 Tokens, for example, as a reward choice. The decision to switch to a new form is being

    thrust in our face at a fast pace and just seems doomed to be a failure. I dunno what else to say about it.

    The switch just seems to make everything super complicated and extra work for the Team that makes this game.

    I want to know more as to why it is so important to phase out tokens? Makes no sense to me. More info would be nice.
    Last edited by zDragonz; 10-24-2013 at 11:28 PM. Reason: More info would be nice.

  19. #699
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scope333 View Post
    I spend most of my time re: DDO actually playing the game rather than posting. I'm weird that way.
    So... why are you posting again, exactly? You've already established that you disapprove of the particular venue of protest that these players are taking; your point is already made, so any further posting is sheer redundancy. I don't really see your goal to be civil conversation, given how inflammatory some of your comments have been toward others. What the protesters are doing doesn't have a particularly profound effect on you personally, does it? What they do with their free time, is it impeding you somehow? Is their absence preventing you from finding a suitable party to play with, is that the source of your venomous posting? Are you unable to enjoy the game without the company of some or all of these people protesting? Is their presence causing your questing to lag or something? It seems more then simply the expression of free speech, since you've chosen this particular thread to focus your posting on. Your last twelve posts at least have been exclusively to this thread. Should your posting be really perceived as a cry for attention, a desire to socialize, but driven by a need for negative attention? Or is it a vain attempt of trolling the protesters, to provide some personal entertainment with imagined thoughts that people will be outraged and incensed by your comments? I am earnestly curious as to what has driven you to be so fixated on something that doesn't seem to impact you directly at this point in time.
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  20. #700
    2014 DDO Players Council Flavilandile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HernandoCortez View Post
    They edited a post with links to other sites. That post had a link to the most forbidden forum here.
    Nope, I have it from a good source that the Author removed it before it was too late.

    Quote Originally Posted by Memnir View Post
    Me, I hate TRing. Can't stand it, and have only done it once.

    For me, this is bigger then my gaming habits or how I feel about TRing though. For me, this is about a trend that has been evolving in DDO game design over the past year or so. This is a trend, and one I don't see stopping unless the Devs understand that it's something that players find unacceptable. I'm on the Bridge not because of this specific change - but because it's what DDO is becoming and will continue to become unless the tide can be turned.

    Am I big enough to turn the tide? No. No more then a pebble can stop a wave. But, this game has lots of pebbles to pile up. And hopefully, with a lot of us doing so on the Bridge right now, we can at least get the wave's attention and change it enough to matter.
    I'm with Memnir on that one, I'm not that fond of TRing, I have one single TR character ( was Cleric, is Druid... because historically in PnP she was a Druid ).
    But all the system changes that were forced on us over the last two years are, from my point of view, bad for the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by ReaperAlexEU View Post
    they never said they would stop, they can still be used to buy augments. the only change they proposed was removing hearts from the trade in list.
    Well They also never said that Lahar would stop selling Catalysts when they made the Augment Change... Still they removed the Catalysts to make sure we had to change our items to the new system if we wanted to slot them.
    ( with the relevant clean up of slots already filled and the changes in new systems )
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