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  1. #1
    Community Member lugoman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    1,195

    Default Desktop shortcut doesn't work after installing 8.1

    Clicking my DDO desktop shortcut icon does nothing after installing windows 8.1. To launch the game I have to launch Turbinelauncher.exe in the ddo folder. Anyway to fix this?

  2. #2
    Community Member Arianka's Avatar
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    Apr 2013
    Posts
    469

    Default

    Windows 8.1. Lulz!

  3. #3
    Founder Hambo's Avatar
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    Feb 2006
    Location
    Sacramento, Ca.
    Posts
    3,784

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Arianka View Post
    Windows 8.1. Lulz!
    Nice.
    Helpful.
    NOT!

    I'm having the same problem... After update to Win 8.1 Pro I had to re-install DDO.

    I get through the logon to the point where I select my server and hit the PLAY button... Cursor shows busy activity for about ten seconds then stops.

    Here's my dndclient.log file from about 10:00 last night (Pacific Time)

    Code:
    000000000.000: Initializing client - build version is [2600.0043.5152.4017.RELEASE] 
    000000000.000: Initializing the global event handler...
    000000000.000: Creating trigger schedulers...
    000000000.000: Initializing the network...
    000000000.000: Initializing the cache...
    000000000.000: CLCache::Init: called.
    000000000.000: LookForFile trying cwd
    000000000.000: Is_File_Here found 'client_general.dat' in 'C:/Program Files (x86)/Turbine/Dungeons & Dragons Online'
    000000000.000: 
    
    DiskCon::InitFile:
      datfile "client_general.dat" stamped with datpack versions eng:112, game:3,
      executable supporting datpack versions eng:-1, game: -1.
    
    000000000.000: 
    
    DiskCon::InitFile:
      datfile "client_highres.dat" stamped with datpack versions eng:112, game:3,
      executable supporting datpack versions eng:-1, game: -1.
    
    000000000.000: 
    
    DiskCon::InitFile:
      datfile "client_gamelogic.dat" stamped with datpack versions eng:112, game:3,
      executable supporting datpack versions eng:-1, game: -1.
    
    000000000.000: 
    
    DiskCon::InitFile:
      datfile "client_anim.dat" stamped with datpack versions eng:112, game:3,
      executable supporting datpack versions eng:-1, game: -1.
    
    000000000.000: 
    
    DiskCon::InitFile:
      datfile "client_mesh.dat" stamped with datpack versions eng:112, game:3,
      executable supporting datpack versions eng:-1, game: -1.
    
    000000000.000: 
    
    DiskCon::InitFile:
      datfile "client_sound.dat" stamped with datpack versions eng:112, game:3,
      executable supporting datpack versions eng:-1, game: -1.
    
    000000000.000: 
    
    DiskCon::InitFile:
      datfile "client_surface.dat" stamped with datpack versions eng:112, game:3,
      executable supporting datpack versions eng:-1, game: -1.
    
    000000000.000: 
    
    DiskCon::InitFile:
      datfile "client_cell_1.dat" stamped with datpack versions eng:112, game:0,
      executable supporting datpack versions eng:-1, game: -1.
    
    000000000.000: 
    
    DiskCon::InitFile:
      datfile "client_map_1.dat" stamped with datpack versions eng:112, game:0,
      executable supporting datpack versions eng:-1, game: -1.
    
    000000000.000: 
    
    DiskCon::InitFile:
      datfile "client_cell_2.dat" stamped with datpack versions eng:112, game:0,
      executable supporting datpack versions eng:-1, game: -1.
    
    000000000.000: 
    
    DiskCon::InitFile:
      datfile "client_map_2.dat" stamped with datpack versions eng:112, game:0,
      executable supporting datpack versions eng:-1, game: -1.
    
    000000000.000: 
    
    DiskCon::InitFile:
      datfile "client_local_English.dat" stamped with datpack versions eng:112, game:3,
      executable supporting datpack versions eng:-1, game: -1.
    
    000000000.000: Initializing display with title 'Dungeons and Dragons Online'...
    000000000.000: Device_WIN32::Init: called.
    000000000.000: Device_WIN32::InitDEVICE|  Detected operating system: Windows 7
    000000000.000: Failed to start rendering system.
    000000000.000: Device_WIN32::Cleanup: called.
    My Hardware:

    ASUS Sabertooth 990FX mainboard
    AMD 4850 CPU (8 core)
    8GB ram
    1TB disk drive
    NVidia 9600 graphics
    Last edited by Hambo; 10-19-2013 at 07:46 AM.
    Carpe D.M.! (Sieze the Dungeon Master!)
    Founder #2003 - Interocitor Repair - Call for discount prices

  4. #4

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hambo View Post

    I'm having the same problem... After update to Win 8.1 Pro I had to re-install DDO.

    I get through the logon to the point where I select my server and hit the PLAY button... Cursor shows busy activity for about ten seconds then stops.

    Here's my dndclient.log file from about 10:00 last night (Pacific Time)

    Problem -> 000000000.000: Failed to start rendering system
    Hey Hambo,

    I'm betting you restored your old Documents/DDO folder including UserPreferences.ini after the upgrade. Rename or remove your user prefs and allow the game to set back to defaults. There's a render setting that's messing with the new WDM video subsystem for DX 11.2.

    Also, when Windows Update forces the post-RTM roll-up packages (KB2884846 and KB2883200 specifically) down to your machine, it's probably (75% chance based on 3 of 4 boxes doing it at my place) going to warn you that dotNET 1.1 needs to be reinstalled to work properly. You can safely ignore that.

    Best of luck!
    The newest computer can merely compound, at speed, the oldest problem in the relations between human beings, and in the end the communicator will be confronted with the old problem, of what to say and how to say it. - Edward R. Murrow (1964)

  5. #5
    Founder Hambo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Sacramento, Ca.
    Posts
    3,784

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sebastianosmith View Post
    Hey Hambo,

    I'm betting you restored your old Documents/DDO folder including UserPreferences.ini after the upgrade. Rename or remove your user prefs and allow the game to set back to defaults. There's a render setting that's messing with the new WDM video subsystem for DX 11.2.

    Also, when Windows Update forces the post-RTM roll-up packages (KB2884846 and KB2883200 specifically) down to your machine, it's probably (75% chance based on 3 of 4 boxes doing it at my place) going to warn you that dotNET 1.1 needs to be reinstalled to work properly. You can safely ignore that.

    Best of luck!
    I'll try this. You are correct, the update saved all the user files. Too bad the update was too dumb to even restore my Office 365 installation, let alone other software that was installed, but I guess that would entail Microsoft taking responsibility for other companies' software.

    [Edit]: This fixed the problem. I had actually attempted 2 installations, and while I completely eradicated all traces of DDO from the system I forgot about the Preferences in my Documents directory.

    Thanks again! Now to go find @#$%in DirectX 10
    Last edited by Hambo; 10-19-2013 at 08:07 AM.
    Carpe D.M.! (Sieze the Dungeon Master!)
    Founder #2003 - Interocitor Repair - Call for discount prices

  6. #6

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hambo View Post
    [Edit]: This fixed the problem. I had actually attempted 2 installations, and while I completely eradicated all traces of DDO from the system I forgot about the Preferences in my Documents directory.

    Thanks again! Now to go find @#$%in DirectX 10
    Great news! Glad I could be of assistance.

    You can get the DX June 2010 Redistributable from here. I still have no idea what it's doing or why DDO won't activate anything higher than DX9 without it, but I've given up trying to find out and just go with the flow.
    The newest computer can merely compound, at speed, the oldest problem in the relations between human beings, and in the end the communicator will be confronted with the old problem, of what to say and how to say it. - Edward R. Murrow (1964)

  7. #7
    Community Member Arianka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    469

    Default

    nm

  8. #8
    Community Member LoveToFlyGuy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    4

    Default Game Error 104 after upgrading to Win 8.1

    I just thought I'd chime in here as well since I seem to be having the same problem after 'upgrading' from Win8 to 8.1.

    I've uninstalled/reinstalled DDO several times, and have deleted the UserPreferences.ini file, and reset the prefs in the client. I tried installing the DX June 2010 Redistributable, but that didn't seem to help either.

    Text of error message:
    Game Error [104] Could not enumerate DirectInput devices. Please ensure that DirectX 9.0c [Dec 2005] or higher is installed. [104]

    Abbreviated text output from dxdiag:
    Code:
    ------------------
    System Information
    ------------------
    Time of this report: 10/25/2013, 12:20:45
           Machine name: LEVIATHAN
       Operating System: Windows 8.1 Pro 32-bit (6.3, Build 9600) (9600.winblue_gdr.130913-2141)
               Language: English (Regional Setting: English)
    System Manufacturer: Gigabyte Technology Co., Ltd.
           System Model: GA-MA770T-UD3
                   BIOS: Award Modular BIOS v6.00PG
              Processor: AMD Phenom(tm) II X6 1055T Processor (6 CPUs), ~2.8GHz
                 Memory: 8192MB RAM
    Available OS Memory: 3324MB RAM
              Page File: 1452MB used, 5200MB available
            Windows Dir: C:\WINDOWS
        DirectX Version: DirectX 11
    DX Setup Parameters: Not found
       User DPI Setting: Using System DPI
     System DPI Setting: 96 DPI (100 percent)
        DWM DPI Scaling: Disabled
         DxDiag Version: 6.03.9600.16384 32bit Unicode
    
    ------------
    DxDiag Notes
    ------------
          Display Tab 1: No problems found.
            Sound Tab 1: No problems found.
            Sound Tab 2: No problems found.
            Sound Tab 3: No problems found.
              Input Tab: No problems found.
    
    --------------------
    DirectX Debug Levels
    --------------------
    Direct3D:    0/4 (retail)
    DirectDraw:  0/4 (retail)
    DirectInput: 0/5 (retail)
    DirectMusic: 0/5 (retail)
    DirectPlay:  0/9 (retail)
    DirectSound: 0/5 (retail)
    DirectShow:  0/6 (retail)
    
    ---------------
    Display Devices
    ---------------
              Card name: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 285
           Manufacturer: NVIDIA
              Chip type: GeForce GTX 285
               DAC type: Integrated RAMDAC
            Device Type: Full Device
             Device Key: Enum\PCI\VEN_10DE&DEV_05E3&SUBSYS_12813842&REV_A1
         Display Memory: 2664 MB
       Dedicated Memory: 1002 MB
          Shared Memory: 1662 MB
           Current Mode: 1680 x 1050 (32 bit) (59Hz)
           Monitor Name: Acer LCD Monitor X223W
          Monitor Model: Acer X223W
             Monitor Id: ACR0009
            Native Mode: 1680 x 1050(p) (59.954Hz)
            Output Type: DVI
            Driver Name: nvd3dum.dll,nvwgf2um.dll,nvwgf2um.dll
    Driver File Version: 9.18.0013.3158 (English)
         Driver Version: 9.18.13.3158
            DDI Version: 10
         Feature Levels: 10.0,9.3,9.2,9.1
           Driver Model: WDDM 1.2
    Graphics Preemption: DMA
     Compute Preemption: DMA
               Miracast: Not Supported
    Hybrid Graphics GPU: Not Applicable
         Power P-states: Not Applicable
      Driver Attributes: Final Retail
       Driver Date/Size: 10/15/2013 17:41:34, 15244272 bytes
            WHQL Logo'd: Yes
        WHQL Date Stamp: 
      Device Identifier: {D7B71E3E-46A3-11CF-A457-8C321CC2C435}
              Vendor ID: 0x10DE
              Device ID: 0x05E3
              SubSys ID: 0x12813842
            Revision ID: 0x00A1
     Driver Strong Name: oem15.inf:0f066de3c72a3c1a:Section004:9.18.13.3158:pci\ven_10de&dev_05e3
         Rank Of Driver: 00DA2001
            Video Accel: ModeMPEG2_A ModeMPEG2_C ModeVC1_C ModeWMV9_C 
            DXVA2 Modes: DXVA2_ModeMPEG2_IDCT  DXVA2_ModeVC1_IDCT  DXVA2_ModeWMV9_IDCT  DXVA2_ModeH264_VLD_NoFGT  
           D3D9 Overlay: Supported
                DXVA-HD: Supported
           DDraw Status: Enabled
             D3D Status: Enabled
             AGP Status: Enabled
    
    -------------------
    DirectInput Devices
    -------------------
          Device Name: Mouse
             Attached: 1
        Controller ID: n/a
    Vendor/Product ID: n/a
            FF Driver: n/a
    
          Device Name: Keyboard
             Attached: 1
        Controller ID: n/a
    Vendor/Product ID: n/a
            FF Driver: n/a
    
    Poll w/ Interrupt: No
    
    ------------------------
    Disk & DVD/CD-ROM Drives
    ------------------------
          Drive: C:
     Free Space: 292.0 GB
    Total Space: 476.9 GB
    File System: NTFS
          Model: ST3500418AS
    
          Drive: D:
     Free Space: 861.6 GB
    Total Space: 1907.7 GB
    File System: NTFS
          Model: ST2000DM001-1CH164
    
          Drive: F:
          Model: PIONEER DVD-RW  DVR-110D ATA Device
         Driver: c:\windows\system32\drivers\cdrom.sys, 6.03.9600.16384 (English), 8/21/2013 18:59:12, 124928 bytes
    
          Drive: E:
          Model: HL-DT-ST DVD-RAM GSA-H55L ATA Device
         Driver: c:\windows\system32\drivers\cdrom.sys, 6.03.9600.16384 (English), 8/21/2013 18:59:12, 124928 bytes
    
    
    --------------------------------------------
    Media Foundation Enabled Hardware Categories
    --------------------------------------------
    
    [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Microsoft\Windows Media Foundation\HardwareMFT]
    
    EnableDecoders = 0
    EnableEncoders = 1
    EnableVideoProcessors = 1
    
    
    ---------------
    EVR Power Information
    ---------------
    Current Setting: {5C67A112-A4C9-483F-B4A7-1D473BECAFDC} (Quality) 
      Quality Flags: 2576
        Enabled:
        Force throttling
        Allow half deinterlace
        Allow scaling
        Decode Power Usage: 100
      Balanced Flags: 1424
        Enabled:
        Force throttling
        Allow batching
        Force half deinterlace
        Force scaling
        Decode Power Usage: 50
      PowerFlags: 1424
        Enabled:
        Force throttling
        Allow batching
        Force half deinterlace
        Force scaling
        Decode Power Usage: 0
    
    ---------------
    Diagnostics
    ---------------
    
    Windows Error Reporting:
    +++ WER0 +++:
    Fault bucket -406594150, type 1
    
    Event Name: APPCRASH
    
    Response: Not available
    
    Cab Id: -305687905
    
    
    
    Problem signature:
    
    P1: dndclient.exe
    
    P2: 2600.43.5152.4017
    
    P3: 525317e8
    
    P4: dndclient.exe
    
    P5: 2600.43.5152.4017
    
    P6: 525317e8
    
    P7: c0000005
    
    P8: 0027f61c
    
    P9: 
    
    P10: 
    
    
    
    
    +++ WER1 +++:
    Fault bucket -412186357, type 1
    
    Event Name: APPCRASH
    
    Response: Not available
    
    Cab Id: 0
    
    
    
    Problem signature:
    
    P1: TurbineLauncher.exe
    
    P2: 2600.43.5152.4017
    
    P3: 52533fce
    
    P4: patchclient.DLL
    
    P5: 3.0.1.4
    
    P6: 520e5900
    
    P7: c0000005
    
    P8: 00024139
    
    P9: 
    
    P10: 
    
    
    
    
    +++ WER2 +++:
    Fault bucket , type 0
    
    Event Name: APPCRASH
    
    Response: Not available
    
    Cab Id: 0
    
    
    
    Problem signature:
    
    P1: TurbineLauncher.exe
    
    P2: 2600.43.5152.4017
    
    P3: 52533fce
    
    P4: patchclient.DLL
    
    P5: 3.0.1.4
    
    P6: 520e5900
    
    P7: c0000005
    
    P8: 00024139
    
    P9: 
    
    P10: 
    
    
    
    
    +++ WER3 +++:
    Fault bucket , type 0
    
    Event Name: APPCRASH
    
    Response: Not available
    
    Cab Id: 0
    
    
    
    Problem signature:
    
    P1: TurbineLauncher.exe
    
    P2: 0.0.0.0
    
    P3: 520a8566
    
    P4: patchclient.DLL
    
    P5: 3.0.1.2
    
    P6: 51c4b59e
    
    P7: c0000005
    
    P8: 000241b9
    
    P9: 
    
    P10: 
    
    
    
    
    +++ WER4 +++:
    Fault bucket , type 0
    
    Event Name: APPCRASH
    
    Response: Not available
    
    Cab Id: 0
    
    
    
    Problem signature:
    
    P1: TurbineLauncher.exe
    
    P2: 0.0.0.0
    
    P3: 520a8566
    
    P4: patchclient.DLL
    
    P5: 3.0.1.2
    
    P6: 51c4b59e
    
    P7: c0000005
    
    P8: 000241b9
    
    P9: 
    
    P10: 
    
    
    
    
    +++ WER5 +++:
    Fault bucket -836857190, type 5
    
    Event Name: AEAPPINVW8
    
    Response: Not available
    
    Cab Id: 0
    
    
    
    Problem signature:
    
    P1: 48
    
    P2: 1
    
    P3: 6.3.0.0
    
    P4: 1033
    
    P5: 22
    
    P6: 
    
    P7: 
    
    P8: 
    
    P9: 
    
    P10: 
    
    
    
    
    +++ WER6 +++:
    Fault bucket -836857190, type 5
    
    Event Name: AEAPPINVW8
    
    Response: Not available
    
    Cab Id: 0
    
    
    
    Problem signature:
    
    P1: 48
    
    P2: 1
    
    P3: 6.3.0.0
    
    P4: 1033
    
    P5: 22
    
    P6: 
    
    P7: 
    
    P8: 
    
    P9: 
    
    P10: 
    
    
    
    
    +++ WER7 +++:
    Fault bucket -412186357, type 1
    
    Event Name: APPCRASH
    
    Response: Not available
    
    Cab Id: 0
    
    
    
    Problem signature:
    
    P1: TurbineLauncher.exe
    
    P2: 2600.43.5152.4017
    
    P3: 52533fce
    
    P4: patchclient.DLL
    
    P5: 3.0.1.4
    
    P6: 520e5900
    
    P7: c0000005
    
    P8: 00024139
    
    P9: 
    
    P10: 
    
    
    
    
    +++ WER8 +++:
    Fault bucket , type 0
    
    Event Name: APPCRASH
    
    Response: Not available
    
    Cab Id: 0
    
    
    
    Problem signature:
    
    P1: TurbineLauncher.exe
    
    P2: 2600.43.5152.4017
    
    P3: 52533fce
    
    P4: patchclient.DLL
    
    P5: 3.0.1.4
    
    P6: 520e5900
    
    P7: c0000005
    
    P8: 00024139
    
    P9: 
    
    P10: 
    
    
    
    
    +++ WER9 +++:
    Fault bucket -836857190, type 5
    
    Event Name: AEAPPINVW8
    
    Response: Not available
    
    Cab Id: 0
    
    
    
    Problem signature:
    
    P1: 48
    
    P2: 1
    
    P3: 6.3.0.0
    
    P4: 1033
    
    P5: 22
    
    P6: 
    
    P7: 
    
    P8: 
    
    P9: 
    
    P10:
    DDO log file:
    Code:
    000000000.000: Initializing client - build version is [2600.0043.5152.4017.RELEASE] 
    000000000.000: Initializing the global event handler...
    000000000.000: Creating trigger schedulers...
    000000000.000: Initializing the network...
    000000000.000: Initializing the cache...
    000000000.000: CLCache::Init: called.
    000000000.000: LookForFile trying cwd
    000000000.000: Is_File_Here found 'client_general.dat' in 'D:/Games/D&D_Online'
    000000000.000: 
    
    DiskCon::InitFile:
      datfile "client_general.dat" stamped with datpack versions eng:112, game:3,
      executable supporting datpack versions eng:-1, game: -1.
    
    000000000.000: 
    
    DiskCon::InitFile:
      datfile "client_highres.dat" stamped with datpack versions eng:112, game:3,
      executable supporting datpack versions eng:-1, game: -1.
    
    000000000.000: 
    
    DiskCon::InitFile:
      datfile "client_gamelogic.dat" stamped with datpack versions eng:112, game:3,
      executable supporting datpack versions eng:-1, game: -1.
    
    000000000.000: 
    
    DiskCon::InitFile:
      datfile "client_anim.dat" stamped with datpack versions eng:112, game:3,
      executable supporting datpack versions eng:-1, game: -1.
    
    000000000.000: 
    
    DiskCon::InitFile:
      datfile "client_mesh.dat" stamped with datpack versions eng:112, game:3,
      executable supporting datpack versions eng:-1, game: -1.
    
    000000000.000: 
    
    DiskCon::InitFile:
      datfile "client_sound.dat" stamped with datpack versions eng:112, game:3,
      executable supporting datpack versions eng:-1, game: -1.
    
    000000000.000: 
    
    DiskCon::InitFile:
      datfile "client_surface.dat" stamped with datpack versions eng:112, game:3,
      executable supporting datpack versions eng:-1, game: -1.
    
    000000000.000: 
    
    DiskCon::InitFile:
      datfile "client_cell_1.dat" stamped with datpack versions eng:112, game:0,
      executable supporting datpack versions eng:-1, game: -1.
    
    000000000.000: 
    
    DiskCon::InitFile:
      datfile "client_map_1.dat" stamped with datpack versions eng:112, game:0,
      executable supporting datpack versions eng:-1, game: -1.
    
    000000000.000: 
    
    DiskCon::InitFile:
      datfile "client_cell_2.dat" stamped with datpack versions eng:112, game:0,
      executable supporting datpack versions eng:-1, game: -1.
    
    000000000.000: 
    
    DiskCon::InitFile:
      datfile "client_map_2.dat" stamped with datpack versions eng:112, game:0,
      executable supporting datpack versions eng:-1, game: -1.
    
    000000000.000: 
    
    DiskCon::InitFile:
      datfile "client_local_English.dat" stamped with datpack versions eng:112, game:3,
      executable supporting datpack versions eng:-1, game: -1.
    
    000000000.000: Initializing display with title 'Dungeons and Dragons Online'...
    000000000.000: Device_WIN32::Init: called.
    000000000.000: Device_WIN32::InitDEVICE|  Detected operating system: Windows 7
    000000000.000: RenderD3D::Startup: called.
    000000000.000: RENDER|  DirectX 9.0 detected and initialized successfully
    000000000.000: RenderD3D::SelectBestDisplayAdapter: called.
    000000000.000: RENDER|  Detected 1 display adapters:
    000000000.000: RenderD3D::DetectDisplayModes: called.
    000000000.000: RENDER|  Detected 44 display modes:
    000000000.000: Initializing the smartbox...
    000000000.000: Initializing the user interface...
    000000000.000: Client ready
    000000021.284: ----CRASH REPORT START----
    000000021.284: Program fault: ACCESS_VIOLATION (0xc0000005) trying to read from 0x12D6F7C4
    000000021.284: Detailed report:
    
    Current local time: Fri Oct 25 21:25:25 2013
    
    
    Version Report generated by CoreVersion : 2.0.141 (0x0200008D):
      Language: English (United States)
      CompanyName : Turbine, Inc.
      FileDescription : 
      FileVersion : 2600.0043.5152.4017
      InternalName : dndclient
      LegalCopyright : Copyright © 1997-2013 Turbine, Inc.
      OriginalFilename : dndclient.exe
      ProductName : dndclient
      ProductVersion : 2600.0043.5152.4017 dnd_live
      Comments : compiled Mon Oct  7 16:19:40 2013 : RELEASE
      TurbineBuildVersion : 2600.0043.5152.4017.RELEASE
      TurbineType : Admin External
    
    
    
    000000021.284: ----CRASH REPORT END----

  9. #9
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    2

    Default

    hi
    I have the same problem and i have reinstall the game, but it didnt work

    any news something we poor win 8.1 users can do?

  10. #10

    Default

    I've been having a similar problem. Seems DDO interacts in all kinds of weird ways with Windows 8.1. In my case, the desktop shortcut didn't work after the update, so I reinstalled. Now the shortcut works, but the game crashes to desktop occasionally without warning or explanation (no error message, the game just vanishes). It very rarely happens in quests, and so far only when soloing easy stuff, so it's been a minor annoyance so far, but I'm always wondering if it's going to cost me an evening's playtime one of these days.

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