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  1. #441
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    I do not like this. For one thing, you're taking away a popular reason for running epic content that uses tokens, and making that part of the game more obsolete. While I understand sagas, and it is nice to get extra rewards for running all quests, instead of farming (which I intensely dislike, so talking my guildies into something different now has an added bribe), you are making it so that a toon that you are woking on multiple heroic TRs must run several levels worth of epic content. This seems to be counterintuitive to lowering the xp needed to reach 20 in the first place.

    Whereas right now, you earn tokens towards a heart with each epic quest, you're chainging the rules to make it so that you have to run 10-15 quests to even earn a small part of what you need to get a heart. If you want to make commendations to earn hearts a reward, that's great, but allow those people who don't have those packs, or don't like those packs to still earn HTR hearts the way we always have. This way, players who want to level to 28 before going back to level 1 can do it their way, and those who are happy returning to beginning content aren't forced to play a game they aren't interested in.

    Not to mention that this does not give many options to players who want to earn the commendations. They have to run eveningstar, or GH, whether they enjoy it or not. As it is now, people have choices. VON, House D, Carnival, chrono, etc.
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  2. #442
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tolero View Post
    So we're still reviewing feedback at the moment, but just wanted to thank you all for providing comments and concerns regarding TR. This is a main focus of attention here in the dev pit.

    Additionally, we'd also like to hear from players regarding your play patterns and sagas, as this is related ...
    - Do you feel like you understand how sagas work?
    - How easy do you find it to track your progress on sagas?
    - Do you multi-task your sagas? (e.g. running a quest because you know it will count towards more than one saga at once)
    1. Yes.

    2. Haven't really tried, but I would definitely prefer a tab in the journal.

    3. Haven't finished any saga, I don't have Shadowfell, and was too close to rebirth when sagas were last fixed to bother with them.

    I am assuming the numbers reported were placeholder figures, so I am not including them in my concerns. Previously, I have earned one true heart of wood, and paid for one' at earlier pricing while on sale. I felt a bit constricted in my quest choices, while earning, but did not feel compelled to repeat them and as the fragments of the tokens came as extras for slaying monsters and in treasure chests I felt that I was not wasting my time even if I couldn't get them in the new material that I hadn't done in normal.
    I did wish that the tokens or something like them could be added to all the material available.
    I do not like that you intend to make it in just the new material, and instead of an available reward rather than in addition to it like in the old system. I am generally just interested in one character, but some of my others are creeping up and I definitely feel that changing the heart earning to btc is an undeserved punishment.
    My wish is that you would incorporate the current fragment earning system into the new material with a small price increase to cover the greater availability. Maybe change the names to tokens of heroism. If I have to choose to get a heart instead of another desired reward than I think the amount of grinding should be less than the current system.
    I am not going to buy hearts at the store at more than half the current price unless I suddenly win the lottery. If the work to grind the hearts is too much of a grind, then I will grow bored with the process and slow down my play. Eventually, I will decide that I am not playing enough to justify my subscription.
    Last edited by Aerinsma; 10-20-2013 at 09:30 PM. Reason: Mistake fixing

  3. #443
    Community Member Auran82's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tolero View Post
    So we're still reviewing feedback at the moment, but just wanted to thank you all for providing comments and concerns regarding TR. This is a main focus of attention here in the dev pit.

    Additionally, we'd also like to hear from players regarding your play patterns and sagas, as this is related ...
    - Do you feel like you understand how sagas work?
    - How easy do you find it to track your progress on sagas?
    - Do you multi-task your sagas? (e.g. running a quest because you know it will count towards more than one saga at once)
    1 - Yes
    2 - It certainly could be alot better, there should be a tab somewhere with saga information included. Same with quest/raid completions and timers, but we have been asking for that for years.
    3 - I have only really been playing one character lately who is currently somewhere between 15 and 17 so only had to deal with the GH saga mostly. To be honest I was surprised that there aren't more sagas available for many of the packs.

  4. #444
    Community Member sdrocky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tolero View Post
    So we're still reviewing feedback at the moment, but just wanted to thank you all for providing comments and concerns regarding TR. This is a main focus of attention here in the dev pit.

    Additionally, we'd also like to hear from players regarding your play patterns and sagas, as this is related ...
    - Do you feel like you understand how sagas work?
    - How easy do you find it to track your progress on sagas?
    - Do you multi-task your sagas? (e.g. running a quest because you know it will count towards more than one saga at once)
    I know how they work
    they are not as easy as they should be to track. needing to run back to the saga giver to check which quest you should run next sucks
    no.

    additionally i don't want to have to run saga's to grind my true heart of wood. The current rates on lama are lame. It is now going to take me at least 10 times as long to TR.

    I believe a system that incorporates both methods to, at least for a heroic heart,obtain them would be more beneficial. and the fact that comms at BTC and not BTA, well, that's just wrong. They made evening star ingredients BTA why then go and make these BTC.

    you can also insert into here some expletives deleted for the person who thought up this non brainwave.

    And i wont spend money. i will probably just stop playing and cancel both my vip subs.
    Last edited by sdrocky; 10-20-2013 at 10:01 PM.

  5. #445
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    I like the change. No more having to do outdated dungeons or the same challenge 10x in a row to TR.

    Now it will just happen as I level up to cap. Saga will fill in, collect heart at will, go on.

  6. #446
    Community Member sdrocky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    I like the change. No more having to do outdated dungeons or the same challenge 10x in a row to TR.
    No. now you will have to run 15 quests at least 15 times to get one. This is going to take you much longer. Oh how you are going to enjoy running the same lame quests over and over and over and over and over again.

    Enjoy

  7. #447
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    I like the change. No more having to do outdated dungeons or the same challenge 10x in a row to TR.

    Now it will just happen as I level up to cap. Saga will fill in, collect heart at will, go on.
    You're going to want to Heroic Reincarnate at 28?
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  8. #448
    Community Member Trillea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    I like the change. No more having to do outdated dungeons or the same challenge 10x in a row to TR.

    Now it will just happen as I level up to cap. Saga will fill in, collect heart at will, go on.
    You obv. missed the fact that the rewards for the sagas are less than 20 comms and you need HUNDREDS of the comms for even the lowest heart.
    Quote Originally Posted by Philam View Post
    I nominate you as head developer of DDO!
    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    That tears it. I need to get a donkey.
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  9. #449
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trillea View Post
    You obv. missed the fact that the rewards for the sagas are less than 20 comms and you need HUNDREDS of the comms for even the lowest heart.
    That aspect will never go live. They will ramp this down. Likely it will require 20-40 quests so shrug.
    Norg Fighter12/Paladin6/Monk2, Jacquiej Cleric18/Monk1/Wiz1, Rabiez Bard16/Ranger3/Cleric1, Hangover Bard L20, Boomsticks Fighter12/Monk 6/Druid 2, Grumblegut Ranger8/Paladin6/Monk6, Rabidly Rogue L20, Furiously Rogue10/Monk6/Paladin4, Snowcones Cleric 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2, Norge Barbarian 12/FVS4/Rogue4. Guild:Prophets of The New Republic Khyber.

  10. #450
    Community Member Trillea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    That aspect will never go live. They will ramp this down. Likely it will require 20-40 quests so shrug.
    20-40 quests, with the current epic sagas, would be 2-3 sagas. For them to ramp it that far down would be a modern day miracle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Philam View Post
    I nominate you as head developer of DDO!
    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    That tears it. I need to get a donkey.
    Concentrated power is the enemy of liberty - Ronald Reagan

  11. #451
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    I like the change. No more having to do outdated dungeons or the same challenge 10x in a row to TR.

    Now it will just happen as I level up to cap. Saga will fill in, collect heart at will, go on.
    hmmm...

    20 DAs and TR in 3 days tops just farming depending on how often you play and using different alts or...

    run sagas, if you own all the packs, on your TR that you just wanted a past life for and don't have the epic gear for limiting yourself to EN or maybe EH receiving 20ish Comms per saga completion and earning 1 heart of wood by the time you hit 28 taking you 2 weeks? a month? 2 months?

  12. #452
    Community Member cherokee83pride's Avatar
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    Default For the love of Drizzt already........

    Please dont require us to do this new saga system for tr's. This is goin to be so bad, because not all of us have time for Saga's despite what people outside of DDO think, some of us do have lives and don't live in folks basements without seeing the sun months at a time.

    Please let us keep Epic/Twelve Tokens for tr'ing and the option to run sagas for Comm's of Valor. Keep both options and it will make a lot more people happy. Destroy the old platform of getting tokens and your taking away some people's options for tr'ing that simply do not have the time to run 15+ quests for saga rewards to only get a small number of comm's for the heart and still have to run the saga several more times for more comm's.
    If anything like I said before make a barter system for tokens for comm's or something to make it worth while, because not everyone will own all the packs it takes for the sagas.

  13. #453
    Community Member AzB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tolero View Post
    So we're still reviewing feedback at the moment, but just wanted to thank you all for providing comments and concerns regarding TR. This is a main focus of attention here in the dev pit.

    Additionally, we'd also like to hear from players regarding your play patterns and sagas, as this is related ...
    - Do you feel like you understand how sagas work?
    - How easy do you find it to track your progress on sagas?
    - Do you multi-task your sagas? (e.g. running a quest because you know it will count towards more than one saga at once)
    I understand how sagas work. I am confused as to what makes them a saga. Sagas are stories. You've simply pasted together a list of current quests that may or may not be related (other than being in the same pack) and have added no additional or appended story to go with them. That part is confusing. And we get a seperate bonus for completing these sagas, but why? The chain or quest rewards have been given by npcs related to the quests.

    Also, the saga givers themselves are confusing. I have a hard time keeping up with sagas as some quests are heroic and epic, and the quests follow no rhyme or reason, and the quest givers are no help in figuring this out.

    Multi tasking a saga is a no brainer, but to be honest the times I've done it I wasn't proactively working towards a multi threaded goal. It just happened.

    It's pretty clear what the actual point of sagas is. I do find it interesting that in the Gianthold chain you removed the Crucible from the flagging requirements because people found it too hard and groups were difficult to put together. And then nobody ran it. And now that they're part of the saga, which offers a reward but does not make Crucible a requirement for something, there are lots more lfms up for it. Funny how that works, and it's a real window into the human nature of your customer.

    As far as the new TR system goes, I do think TR'ing needs to be a bit more difficult and require a bit more time. I'm a fairly casual player that actually enjoys playing the quests and not "farming" and "zerging" just to get them done. But even then, it rarely takes me more than a couple weeks to TR. However, this current idea of removing the 20 token for a heart of wood requirement and replacing it with an incredible number of another new form of currency is baffling. This takes making TR'ing a bit more difficult to an extreme that I would never have imagined.

    I'm not sure what your long term plan for the game is, (I hope you have one!) but this constant changing of current systems while leaving older systems, including the latest release, full of bugs and unfinished features and systems is just plain bad business.

    I love the game in spite of the problems, and partly because of the fun folks I've met playing. But those people are disappearing... actually all but a couple are gone already. I understand player attrition is expected, but there is no new player base coming in to replace them. At some point you're going to have to tackle these issues head on, and realize it's not because of tokens and TR'ing that these things are happening. And if you want to make the game new user friendly, realize that new users have no real guide or knowledge base for any of the new systems you guys have created. And just when they start to figure out how a system works, they run into inconsistencies and bugs that just make them wonder what's going on. And if you want to keep veteran players, you can't continue to take things away that they already have. It is a far, far better thing to think out and plan ahead with a great deal of attention to detail before things are released. In the long run it's much easier than releasing and then dealing with the fallout of failed systems and annoying bugs. No business that is for profit likes testing because it doesn't show up on the bottom line but it does show up in the budget. But if you get past the portfolios, the product is what makes or breaks a business. Testing is an important part of making a good product. We can be beta testers on Lamm, but we should never be alpha testers, and the serious problems that show up on Lamm should never make it live.

    Please keep up the good work, I really do enjoy the wonderful aspects of the game and I hope to keep playing for a long time. But stop creating new systems and fix the ones you already have.

  14. #454
    Community Member Jaayse_Thorne's Avatar
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    This is a horrible idea.

    I think the current system makes sense, and even if you want to provide a new route to get the new epic TR then don't delete the old way of getting a heroic TR, and don't make is so much of a grind that people will become bored and disappointed in the game because they can't experiment with TR builds as easily.

    I feel like if you introduce this new system people will become very discontent with the grind to TR and leave the game. It would be extremely repetitive to have to run sagas every night for weeks to get one heroic TR. Not only that, but you then force people to buy the expansions unless they're content to play gianthold forever, totally ruining the game. Even VIPs would be forced to spend more money. Those are the people who pay for this game, and I was one of them. I feel like giving people an additional route of TRing is not a completely bad idea, but FORCING people to switch to a new system is wrong.
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  15. #455
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    Selling people Otto's boxes is one thing, forcing them to buy TR's is a completely different thing. People need to stop getting confused about the topic. This is all about selling more hearts, and doing it in a way that is both disrespectful to the consumer and basically just greedy. When we pay for a game that has been out this long, we are paying to keep the game play from huge drastic changes (say revamping the entire combat system, changing all the enhancements, etc). If I have to buy something for my character so it can progress, what is the challange now? Ability to cash a welfare check? I prefer quests that involve my character killing monsters, not quests that involve me putting in my CC number.


    *This game is old and clunky. Do not try to make it a game for the masses - the masses like new things or Nostalgic things like EQ; this game is neither. The attempt will fail. Focus on the true RPG nerd crowd. There are still customers to gain in this sector. It's either that or alienate everyone.
    **I had 5 characters on EQ that I would box. That is $75/month. I average a little over $2k/year on games. I have wanted to spend more money on this game, but honestly I am scared. It is things like taking away tokens for TR that make me weary of investing heavily in this game.
    ***I have no problem with the new system for the Epic/Iconic TR. Do not change the old TR system.
    ****I actually really like the enhancement changes, they work well with my play style. I don't like the entire thing though, I think the change irritated a great many players. Many of those players are the quality players that attract me to this game, lose them and I leave as well.
    Last edited by doawithlife; 10-21-2013 at 02:51 AM.

  16. #456
    Community Member Thumbed_Servant's Avatar
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    Default NO to another new currency, NO to removing the old system of buying True Hearts

    From Glin, DDO Senior Producer:
    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
    I am looking forward to providing everyone with the design details of proposed changes to the Reincarnation system in the coming weeks. Before we start rolling out the fact sheets and dev discussions, I intend to get in front of some of the greater concerns that players (and developers) have raised regarding our prior proposal for Epic Reincarnation.

    To get to the point: We have really changed direction from what was previously proposed; and I for one am very pleased that the systems team has taken that direction from 'power from pain' to something more palatable, like 'rewarded for efforts.'
    ....

    ~E
    The removal of the current ability to purchase True Hearts of Wood via Tokens of the Twelve feels like the pain Glin said you were taking us away from. Not only have we players become accustomed to the old system, but if we have banked Tokens of the Twelve that we've previously earned for the express purpose of funding future True Reincarnations this proposed change will instantly devalue that currency and that feels more like "pain", not "rewarded for effort."

    The new currency of Commendations of Valor is more of what we already have...too many currencies. We have platinum, we have collectables, we have astral shards, we have a different currency for each of the different item upgrade types in the game (Unraveling Enchantments; Dampened; Fusible/Malleable/Fragmented/Battle-Scarred; Trace of Madness; Suppressed Power; Nearly Finished; Upgradeable Item (Stormreaver); Upgradable Item (Black Abbot); Attuned to Heroism / Armor Upgrade / Cormyrian Dragon Armor), we have Tokens of the Twelve, we have epic scrolls/shards/seals, we have Cannith Crafting essences, we have dragon scales, we have relics, and did I miss any (probably)?

    Should you go ahead with the new Commendations of Valor: 1) Keep the current Tokens of the Twelve True Heart of Wood purchase system too. 2) The current Commendations costs for Hearts of Wood as listed are astronomically too high'. 3) There should be MANY more saga's in the game incorporating many more quests and packs, thus providing more options of what to play through to earn the hearts of wood.

    AzB said it very well, so I end my post by quoting their post in part:
    Quote Originally Posted by AzB View Post
    ... this current idea of removing the 20 token for a heart of wood requirement and replacing it with an incredible number of another new form of currency is baffling. This takes making TR'ing a bit more difficult to an extreme that I would never have imagined.

    I'm not sure what your long term plan for the game is, (I hope you have one!) but this constant changing of current systems while leaving older systems, including the latest release, full of bugs and unfinished features and systems is just plain bad business.

    ...Please keep up the good work, I really do enjoy the wonderful aspects of the game and I hope to keep playing for a long time. But stop creating new systems and fix the ones you already have.
    Last edited by Thumbed_Servant; 10-21-2013 at 02:44 AM.
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  17. #457
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    In my opinion, yes.

    however, many...
    don't read the forums.
    don't care and just play.
    don't read notes posted.
    don't have friends that do follow any of them.
    haven't played for a long time period

    There are so many "negatives" that managers feel that they can keep doing the same trick until the company is gone.
    actually, in general u r right about many dunno about these changes. I am as well not a frequent forum reader. Its just too time consuming to really follow it. However, I know that these changes now have been discussed actively ingame. In the chat channels, even in harbor general chat they talked about it. I know people that dont usually post on the forums (me included) but that came here to speak up and say their opinion because if you dont speak now, u cant complain later. and this kind of change is too drastic to ignore or "live" with it.

    Loulani (17 Druid, 2 Monk, 1 Artificer): a healer who cc's (70 Evocation DC) and does traps (110 Disable Device, 107 Search)

  18. #458
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    With Update 20 and the upcoming new types of Reincarnation, we’re adding additional value to Epic Sagas and updating the method of acquiring True Hearts of Wood to better fit with our current content and level cap.


    Epic Sagas will allow you to earn Commendations of Valor that can be spent on the following rewards:

    • Heroic True Hearts of Wood
    • Iconic True Hearts of Wood
    • Epic Hearts of Wood


    The number of Commendations you earn will increase if you challenge yourself and earn higher difficulty Saga rewards.

    With these changes, the old “endgame” route of earning Reincarnations has been retired. Heroic True Hearts of Wood will no longer be available from the Epic vendor in The Twelve.

    To answer a couple of your questions:

    • Tokens of the Twelve are not being removed, and will still be usable at The Twelve to purchase a variety of Augments, as they do now.
    • Any True Hearts of Wood you currently have are still able to be used after Update 20.


    We’d love to hear your feedback after running Sagas on Lamannia and seeing how things work. Remember that Reincarnation is not yet ready for preview, however. Thanks!
    This is absolutely nuts. 900 commendations to acquire a heart of wood, which is then bound to character, when with the current system it's BtA? This is an absolutely ridiculous level of grinding, and is clearly intended to force players to buy hearts of wood at the store. Why are the devs spending time messing up something that works fine the way it's currently set up, when there is stuff that is seriously broken that needs to be fixed (like the arcane archer capstone and bow enhancements)?

    This is guaranteed to drive players away, which is certainly not going to increase Turbine's revenue stream. If this goes through, a high percentage of my guildies will either stop playing, or will delete characters when they hit level 20 and create new ones, rather than TR'ing them. There will be little incentive to play the epic stuff, when the toon is simply going to be deleted.

    Please, please do not change the heroic TR system currently in place. It works. It's not onerous. It doesn't alienate players. This proposed change is frankly awful.

    If Turbine wants a repeat of what happened on Neverwinter Nights, where players fled in droves, then proceed with this type of totally stupid change, and watch your player base dwindle away.

  19. #459
    Community Member sdrocky's Avatar
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    Default come and join occupy stormreach

    Come one. Come all. Come and join us on the bridge in wayfinder marketplace1.

    currently we have a 200 strong guild "Update 20 killed me".

    At this moment there is over 60 toons on the bridge. We want more.

  20. #460
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    Quote Originally Posted by sdrocky View Post
    Come one. Come all. Come and join us on the bridge in wayfinder marketplace1.

    currently we have a 200 strong guild "Update 20 killed me".

    At this moment there is over 60 toons on the bridge. We want more.
    Even players on Wayfinder are upset about this, that is my second most played server and I've never seen that many players on the server log on at the same time, come on Turbine!

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