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  1. #421
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soloist12 View Post
    Actually, I also want to touch on Sagas a bit.

    You can make them work. However, I feel they're just too long (10-15 quests or so), perhaps if they were 4-6 quests in length? For example, the Amrath quests could be one. Waterworks+Stk could be one, etc.

    This 13 quests business is a bit long. Sagas right now are a bit too long* for one group to stay together for it, however 4-6 in length would be much more appropriate for an afternoon or evening to find players to start and finish a saga together.

    You also need a UI for this, like the quest journal. As of now, I'm hand-writing my progress down on a piece of paper beside me.
    .
    I think this makes a little bit more sense to me, but have longer sagas and short ones which are a subset of the longer ones. So like have the waterworks + Stk and then another saga which is the Marketplace (non STK and non Catacombs) and a third saga which is Harbor quest line which is non waterworks and then a 4th saga which is all three of those sagas and has a much larger reward.
    Norg Fighter12/Paladin6/Monk2, Jacquiej Cleric18/Monk1/Wiz1, Rabiez Bard16/Ranger3/Cleric1, Hangover Bard L20, Boomsticks Fighter12/Monk 6/Druid 2, Grumblegut Ranger8/Paladin6/Monk6, Rabidly Rogue L20, Furiously Rogue10/Monk6/Paladin4, Snowcones Cleric 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2, Norge Barbarian 12/FVS4/Rogue4. Guild:Prophets of The New Republic Khyber.

  2. #422
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    You are making a false connection there bud. Don't confuse a result with a cause.

    People not playing 20-28 isn't the problem - it's a side-effect of the fact that THE ENDGAME SUCKS and the people who are still around are either complaining about the end game or TRing ... and a few like you who are happy with the new stuff. You're in the minority here bud - and reading this thread should clue you in to that. People don't like 20-28 right now, and so aren't doing it.
    .
    level 20-25 is not the end game, but people are not playing even that so your end game theory is lousy. The majority as you put it is not going to grow the game whatsover. I can not even begin to describe the amount and number of people that I know who have left DDO because there is no growth in DDO. If you want to maintain any future in DDO you have to invest in the new things that are put into DDO enough said. I questioned whether DDO should have gone free to play and created the store and so many things because that was a painful 6 months before the change for one, but that was one of the best decisions that DDO ever made going free to play. Sometimes you got to do the right thing for the future and past be ******.
    Norg Fighter12/Paladin6/Monk2, Jacquiej Cleric18/Monk1/Wiz1, Rabiez Bard16/Ranger3/Cleric1, Hangover Bard L20, Boomsticks Fighter12/Monk 6/Druid 2, Grumblegut Ranger8/Paladin6/Monk6, Rabidly Rogue L20, Furiously Rogue10/Monk6/Paladin4, Snowcones Cleric 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2, Norge Barbarian 12/FVS4/Rogue4. Guild:Prophets of The New Republic Khyber.

  3. #423
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scraap View Post
    I really do think ya'll severely underestimate how much of a safety-valve the TR phenomenon is for player retention.
    ^ This.

    At first glance to me it looks like they are increasingly irritated that nobody is running/buying their new content, so that keep adding ways to force players to run it (also seen it Epic TR ideas they presented).

    Instead what they should be doing is taking the unspoken feedback as it's been given: people don't like your new stuff and prefer the old game. Rather than obsoleting the old game and forcing us to play the new, the correct response would be to make improvements to the new stuff (and maybe make it a little less money-grabbing). As a VIP I get REALLY turned off by having to pay for expansions that aren't really expansions but rather updates. I similarly get really turned off by constant changes to take away what we already have and like and had some kind of spoken or unspoken assurance that it wouldn't change or go away (like ED XP).

    This is the wrong direction to push, and the feedback in this thread should make it more than clear that you are pushing loyal customers to the exits.

    And that inspires another thought... customer confidence. If you undermine customer confidence it can ruin you. Releasing this ****, even on Lam and assuming it never goes live as is, undermines customer confidence. It reminds me of the CU football team last year. They had a new coach who had only been on the job 2 years. Now, it's standard for a coach to be given 4 years to turn a program around, but CU's program had become SO bad under the new coach that it undermined customer confidence; season ticket holders were jumping ship, boosters were jumping ship, recruiting became nearly impossible. So.... 2 years be damned, they fired that coach (and rightly so). Just a thought/example for Turbine to be aware of, people here are looking for the exits also, you need to change direction on this (and future) changes.

  4. #424
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    level 20-25 is not the end game, but people are not playing even that so your end game theory is lousy. The majority as you put it is not going to grow the game whatsover. I can not even begin to describe the amount and number of people that I know who have left DDO because there is no growth in DDO. If you want to maintain any future in DDO you have to invest in the new things that are put into DDO enough said. I questioned whether DDO should have gone free to play and created the store and so many things because that was a painful 6 months before the change for one, but that was one of the best decisions that DDO ever made going free to play. Sometimes you got to do the right thing for the future and past be ******.
    I don't recall saying 20-25 is the endgame.

    You're still reading whatever you want to and not what people are actually saying in a way you think supports your stance. I agree with you on a ton of stuff, but right now it's like having an argument with my wife where I realize her mind is set, regardless of anything else.

    We disagree.

    Forcing players to play those epic sagas to TR is not a growth mechanism; no idea how you think it is but whatever. Again, we disagree and I don't think we'll get to common ground.
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  5. #425
    Hatchery Hero BOgre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    With these changes, the old “endgame” route of earning Reincarnations has been retired. Heroic True Hearts of Wood will no longer be available from the Epic vendor in The Twelve.
    since purchasing Hearts from the Twelve via Tokens was the main reason for farming tokens, this change is awful. Since many players have many tokens saved up, this is worse than awful. It's harsh and punitive. A better solution is to phase these out as you did with Guild Augments. Keep the tradein recipe intact, just stop dropping new tokens (which is actually also terrible... but at least it does not invalidate millions of player manhours in farmed Tokens).
    Quote Originally Posted by Towrn
    ...when the worst thing that happens when you make a mistake at your job is someone complains on the internet, you probably care a little less!

  6. #426
    Community Member djl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    In this case I'm betting Mournlands didn't have much say.

    Look at history, both in game, these forums, and the "other forums".

    Dupping happened. LOTS of it.

    Tokens were dupped, LOTS of them.

    The amount of man hours to go through each account, each character, will be HORRENDOUS.

    Managers say to stop, and just create a new form of TR that handles this situation. Cheaters can't profit (further), Turbine doesn't spend man hours to fix the issue (profit), and everyone gets punished and gets to start over at the same point.
    Which, wouldn't be quite so terrible if their math wasn't completely ****ing ridiculous. I mean, yeah, it would be very unfair regardless but it is madness to go from 20 tokens which takes -- at most-- about 15-20 hours to obtain (assuming you play casually and suck at questing) to 2000 coms which at the current rates will take a minimum of OVER ONE HUNDRED ****ING HOURS to obtain.

    They more than quintupled the grind, for no logical reason other than pure corporate greed. And I think that when you get down to it, that is why so many people are upset -- they feel personally slighted by the developers; subsequently, when customer confidence is near an all-time low, it is disastrous to make a decision that leaves them feeling deeply betrayed. I think that's why there has been such a significant backlash now-- when your customer has straddled the fence and is thinking about going to a competitor, what do you do? You certainly don't give them a reason to go ahead and jump down on the other side of the fence, you don't push them. And that's what this was, a push.
    Last edited by djl; 10-20-2013 at 03:19 PM.

  7. #427
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by djl View Post
    Which, wouldn't be quite so terrible if their math wasn't completely ****ing ridiculous. I mean, yeah, it would be very unfair regardless but it is madness to go from 20 tokens which takes -- at most-- about 15-20 hours to obtain (assuming you play casually and suck at questing) to 2000 coms which at the current rates will take a minimum of OVER ONE HUNDRED ****ING HOURS to obtain.
    I don't think any of us like the idea of the number of comms they made it require.

    It is a typical Turbine Knee Jerk reaction. Screw up/over first, then ask for forgiveness later or do it as Turbine does, play up being the good guy and sell it as good PR that "hey, we are lowing requirements."

  8. #428

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    So I guess my toon that has been in perpetual TR since u9-10 has to now grind epic sagas in an off life, in gear that was acquired pre-u9? Not to mention this toon has never really gained much in the realm of epic gear to help out in this future endeavor. I TR because I DON'T ENJOY epic content, I can barely handle the mat grind from the cannith challenges but I do it effectively and it doesn't take super long. I know ill have to do epic content eventually with my toon, just not in a class I wanted to finish quickly with my non-epic gear. Silly change.
    Crank it out!

  9. #429
    Community Member djl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    I don't think any of us like the idea of the number of comms they made it require.

    It is a typical Turbine Knee Jerk reaction. Screw up/over first, then ask for forgiveness later or do it as Turbine does, play up being the good guy and sell it as good PR that "hey, we are lowing requirements."
    But that excuse only flies so many times, doesn't it? You can only screw up and apologize so many times because you eventually lose the benefit of the doubt and people start to think that either

    a) You don't know what the **** you're doing

    or

    b) You just don't give a ****

    At least, that's how it usually works. When your cable provider makes frequent mistakes on your bill and shifts around which channels are offered in which packages so that you have to upgrade your package to keep the same channels you used to have, it begins to grate on you as the customer. Couple that with a steady increase in your bill over time and eventually, you will draw a line and once that line is crossed, you'll opt for a different provider.

    Obviously this is a little different because so many people fall into the "sunk cost" trap, believing that even though Turbine is making a mockery out of themselves and this game, it's still more beneficial to suck it up rather than start completely anew in a different MMO because they have sunk months/years into this game. Realize, every game has an expiration date and with the way this one is going, it is going to be sooner rather than later. Ultimately, any time sunk into a game is time wasted. So, if the bugs and money-grubbing corporate attitude sucked all the fun out of the game, you'll ultimately be happier and less frustrated by moving on. Even when it does mean starting over.
    Last edited by djl; 10-20-2013 at 03:33 PM.

  10. #430
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by djl View Post
    But that excuse only flies so many times, doesn't it?
    In my opinion, yes.

    however, many...
    don't read the forums.
    don't care and just play.
    don't read notes posted.
    don't have friends that do follow any of them.
    haven't played for a long time period

    There are so many "negatives" that managers feel that they can keep doing the same trick until the company is gone.

  11. #431

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    Quote Originally Posted by djl View Post
    Which, wouldn't be quite so terrible if their math wasn't completely ****ing ridiculous.
    That's only half the problem. The other half is switching from BTA to BTC.

    God forbid I use the alt that still needs destinies to farm up epic tokens to TR the alt that doesn't need any more destiny xp. Clearly I'm playing the game wrong.

  12. #432
    Community Member LadyKoneko's Avatar
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    Default Here you go.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tolero View Post
    So we're still reviewing feedback at the moment, but just wanted to thank you all for providing comments and concerns regarding TR. This is a main focus of attention here in the dev pit.

    Additionally, we'd also like to hear from players regarding your play patterns and sagas, as this is related ...
    - Do you feel like you understand how sagas work?
    - How easy do you find it to track your progress on sagas?
    - Do you multi-task your sagas? (e.g. running a quest because you know it will count towards more than one saga at once)
    I think Saga's are easy to understand.. not so easy to find. How about a new icon/map marker instead of an 'orindary' quest one.

    It is easy to check, tho annoying. I have to find the individual saga.. then talk to them through multiple screens.. Any chance of making a new tab/UI interface? Along the lines of whats done for quests, server/patron favor, etc. Speaking of which any way of changing the quests lists so you can sort by epic/non-epic as well as epic level, for a better idea of what else to run?

    Also reworking the /quest completions.. There's so much information there now.. could get some more /quest options.. IE
    /Raid Completions /Saga completions /Quest compleletions (for those quests on special 3 turn in rewards).

    I dont pick a quest based only on saga... I pick based on what sounds fun, what I think my toon can do, what I can get a group for.. etc.. saga is very low on the list.

    A thought I had, to fix the TR thing... leave TR the way it is, 20 tokens. ETRs should you greater tokens of the 12 (hey what else do we use 'em for but to turn into normal tokens.. some augments.. but mostly normal tokens). And then for the ITR introduce a token of Eveningstar/Forgotten Realms... It keeps the system in place.. ACTUALLY adds to it, as well as if the game ever expands into another area is already set up. Which would mean putting tokens into the newest content...
    * * * Koneka * * *
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  13. #433
    Community Member cherokee83pride's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tolero View Post
    So we're still reviewing feedback at the moment, but just wanted to thank you all for providing comments and concerns regarding TR. This is a main focus of attention here in the dev pit.

    Additionally, we'd also like to hear from players regarding your play patterns and sagas, as this is related ...
    - Do you feel like you understand how sagas work?
    - How easy do you find it to track your progress on sagas?
    - Do you multi-task your sagas? (e.g. running a quest because you know it will count towards more than one saga at once)
    I think a lot of us old school player's are going to find having to do saga's for Hearts, is going to make alot of people ill tempered with DDO and want to leave. I for one am not liking the saga's for gathering Comm's of Valor for TR'ing. Because of all the epic tokens/twelve tokens I've acquired over time. Now we have to ditch all of the things we've gathered for a new system? If there was some implementation to exchange said amount of tokens for comm's then I would definitely be on board with the Saga train, but as is. It's is making me definitely want to deviate away from DDO and find another game, I'm sad to say.

    Tolero, I love you guys and DDO! DDO has been a part of my life for the better part of a decade. I think this change is going to make a lot of old school dedicated players leave the game.

    But, yet again. I suggest a barter system so we can exchange Epic/Twelve Tokens for Comm's, I think that you would have a lot more happier players on your hand, especially for some of those free to play people that don't own packs to be able to complete sagas. The trade off might be a thought for you guy's.

  14. #434
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    Quote Originally Posted by sherbertmachine View Post
    So I guess my toon that has been in perpetual TR since u9-10 has to now grind epic sagas in an off life, in gear that was acquired pre-u9? Not to mention this toon has never really gained much in the realm of epic gear to help out in this future endeavor. I TR because I DON'T ENJOY epic content, I can barely handle the mat grind from the cannith challenges but I do it effectively and it doesn't take super long. I know ill have to do epic content eventually with my toon, just not in a class I wanted to finish quickly with my non-epic gear. Silly change.
    This is a very important point and I was trying to think of a way to explain it.

    An "Off-Class Life" is a pretty good way of explaining. The one of the current problem with Epics is having to farm in Off-Destinies. With the changes that have been proposed, we are now expected to also farm in Off-Classes before we TR.

    I'm sure I'm not the only person who's either leveled up to 20 in a sub-optimal build to see how it works because we know it that we can just TR it once we hit 20. It could be to test a new build because there was a change in the classes (and this is happening EVERY update). It could be to experience a certain class as pure just to get an understanding of the class (which I've done with several lives). It could be that the player just messed up on his/her way to completionist.

    What the Devs have proposed will now make players farm through the Epic levels a character that they don't want to play because they only made the build for the past life and expected to be able to TR immediately. If tokens are needed, currently the bad build can farm some quests to get the heart or an alt can farm the tokens for them. This changes prevents both.

    So this another important thing that needs to be stressed that will hurt players. And I suspect many players will either stop TRing altogether since it's added stress...if they don't quit the game outright.

  15. #435
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    You are right in that I do not want people to just go off somewhere and farm some tokens in 1 challenge by themselves or do 10 runs of devil assault, but rather I would like them to experience what level 20 to 28 has to offer. There should not be this artificial segregation of 1-20 and 21-28 which there currently is. DDO should be a level 1-28 game. Varied content will increase people's enjoyment of DDO.
    I understand. I don't want people just running a couple of raids at end game instead of TRing and playing through the game with me. Would have a lot more LFM's of a much wider level range if no one ever wasted their time sitting at the level cap running end game content. That said, I wouldn't go so far as to say having no end game is good for the game just because it would get more people to accept that TRing is all there is. Making people run 6 sagas over and over again so you have someone to play with is not good for the game either.

    I agree that people just running a challenge or DA for tokens is not for the best. Both of those are epic content and we should not have to run epic content to get heroic TR hearts. That has always been a stupid policy and it is clear from this thread that the only reason people are not bothered by it is because they have been farming their tokens on alts and thus were not affected by it. As a person that tends to avoid alts, having to run epic content just to heroic TR has always been annoying and it is high time it changed. Heroic sagas (and heroic quests in general) should give the items needed to get heroic TR hearts. People are only doing a challenge or DA for tokens because they have to. If you could earn heroic TR hearts in heroic content they wouldn't be wasting their time in epic content when heroic is what they want to be playing.

    And honestly, if you want to get heroic players to play epic content join me in trying to convince the developers to lower the minimum level of BtCoA gear. If you get a piece of BtCoA gear out of an epic level raid then you obviously were high enough in level to earn it. There is no reason to have a high minimum level on it except to prevent people from using it when they TR. All that does it kill any motivation to run epic content if you like TRing. I played through the epic content once. When I saw that there was nothing for me there since everything had a minimum level of 20+ I TRed again and have ignored it since. As long as they keep making loot that TR's can't use you are not going to get people to join you in running high level content.
    Everyone who is not in the true definition of "hardcore" is looked down on as a "casual", unwilling or incapable of understanding the true brilliance of having twelve-year-olds insult you while they are teabagging your virtual corpse. - Christian Ward columnist for The Escapist

  16. #436
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    The people posting here want to play less content and less new content for that matter which is not healthy or sustainable. The developers should release the rewards for epic reincarnation - that might appease many of these people. This was poorly messaged the developers should show the benefits of running level 20-28 content in addition to any system changes.
    Currently I run each quest once and then TR. I play hundreds of different quests each life. This change will make me spend months running only 6 sagas. That is less variety, not more. Earning tokens is the most boring part of TRing. Making it last longer will result in less variety because the small portion of each life where you are forced to repeat content (the token farming portion of life) will be greatly extended. If we want more variety rather than less we need the collectibles that are traded for TR hearts to drop in every single quest so there is no need to repeat anything. Running every heroic quest once should give enough collectibles to TR.
    Everyone who is not in the true definition of "hardcore" is looked down on as a "casual", unwilling or incapable of understanding the true brilliance of having twelve-year-olds insult you while they are teabagging your virtual corpse. - Christian Ward columnist for The Escapist

  17. #437
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Having a group of people not caring about epic levels cuts into Turbine's profits so Turbine has to make them care. Trring is not enough for DDO's profit margins. The other option is that Turbine nerfs reincarnation in one way or another. They are buffing up epic level running with the epic reincarnation which is a nerf of regular reincarnation in sense. Having a fractured community has really hurt DDO something that is pretty obvious to many of us.
    It's true, it has. I don't know why you people still insist on staying at the level cap instead of joining us on the TR train. You are fracturing the community. :P

    As for who pays them more, none of us know for sure. But I would assume all the money TR's spend on Otto's boxes and experience potions is greater than the loot gems and SP pots used by the level capped characters.
    Everyone who is not in the true definition of "hardcore" is looked down on as a "casual", unwilling or incapable of understanding the true brilliance of having twelve-year-olds insult you while they are teabagging your virtual corpse. - Christian Ward columnist for The Escapist

  18. #438
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    I have to say, i had no idea that there were so many people that so vehemently dislike epic content.

    For myself, i don't dislike it. I just consider it to be something i haven't really gotten to yet. I almost consider it to be kind of a sequel to the original. Thing is, i haven't finished the original yet. The plans i made to tr existed before the introduction of Motu. I still want to do them.

    Now mind you, i haven't completely avoided epic content. My characters who i have tr'd played it at least some, before i tr'd them. Not talkling about token grinding. Actually played them up to level 25, maxed a destiny or 2.

    After doing that for a while, i get tired of the build/class i am playing, and want to try another. Not the character mind you, just the current build of it. This is why tr is so ingenious. It allows me to do that, while still playing the same character(s) that i have become attached to. This is different from other games, where you would basically have to make a new character and start from scratch.

    If tr'ing becomes impractical for me, that will leave my only option to continue playing as creating and deleting new characters over and over. Since i will know at creation that they are destined for the chopping block, i will not become invested in, or attached to them. It will soon become like other games, and like other games, i will get tired of it. I will look for a new game, and not look back.

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    Im currently on Life 9. At the moment I can get to Life 10 through the old Epic tokens, but I can run stuff to get another TR Heart before I will be ready to TR again. I probably have points that I can use to buy a TR Heart. It would be ironic that I quit the game so close to Completionist. But I will.

    Even 10% of the cost is still a massive amount of additional time required over what is currently needed.

    There has been a lot of dumb ideas lately, but this truly is the ultimate.

    So many people dont like the new content. So many people are cranky that there was no new raid. Some quit. Others decided to join the TR train. Now that is being taken away.

  20. #440
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    To make an analogy, i can liken this game to tv network like say, TNT.

    They used to only show old syndicated programs, shows that weren't being made any more, but people still liked to watch. Sort of like Eberron.

    Then they delved into the arena of making new, original content. Sort of like forgotten realms.

    They drew new people to watch their network with these new shows. But no matter how good these new shows were, there were still people who preferred to watch Seinfeld or Law and Order reruns. Does it chaff them that these people prefer to watch the old stuff rather than the new stuff they were making? Hell if i know. I do know that they still run the old shows, because they have probably realized that, given the amount of competitors that people could go to, they should appreciate that people are watching their network at all.

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