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  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    Also massively disappointed that you're moving the goalposts from making Sagas an optional extra for a bit of extra amusement and rewards along the way, to becoming an integral requirement for any form of TR going forward. Massive disappointment.
    This can't be stressed enough. We were told that Sagas were being added as an extra bit of reward that players could earn. We were told it wasn't necessary to do the sagas to advance the game, just a new source for rewards already in the game.

    Tying all TRing to the Sagas doesn't make them an optional source of rewards available elsewhere. It makes them the sole source of the reward.

    ....

    BTW how many barriers are there being added to TRing?
    * The Ings are BTC.
    * Sagas must be ran Multiple times, so no HTRing at 20. And from the numbers we've seen, there's no HTRing until level 28 or 30.
    * Epic and Iconic TR both must be done at the level cap.
    * Epic must meet some Karma mechanism.

    As others voiced over the weeks, why are you complicating a process when it should be kept simple. And the HTR system is a working! and fairly simple process. Why all the mucking in the mechanics that work in the game? Especially systems that players aren't complaining about!

  2. #302
    Community Member Stonemerge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saravis View Post
    So what's up with Crucible? You remove it from flagging, making it an optional quest if you want to do the Saga, but now the Saga is required if you want to reincarnate, making it a required quest again, unless you have either of the expansions.
    oh common, that was well-thought from the devs ... you can always SKIP "The Crucible" with ASTRAL SHARDS ... look at this annoying button in the lower right corner



    We are not customers - we are cows, milked dry before slaughtered

  3. #303
    2015 DDO Players Council B0ltdrag0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stonemerge View Post
    oh common, that was well-thought from the devs ... you can always SKIP "The Crucible" with ASTRAL SHARDS ... look at this annoying button in the lower right corner



    We are not customers - we are cows, milked dry before slaughtered
    You don't slaughter dairy cows. You use them for breeding, problems here is when you poison your dairy cows...they don't bring you new business. In this case via postivie word of mouth to friends.
    Officer of Renowned

  4. #304
    Community Member Ovrad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scuddy View Post
    So the official Turbine response to this train wreck of a "great idea" so far seems to be that you silly people just don't understand sagas? Tolero let me assure you that educating ignorant masses on how great sagas are or how they work is not the problem here. Perhaps Turbine needs to really listen to it's players and not keep drinking the Turbine Koolaid.
    Agreed, is this really the only dev answer we can get? "Are you sure you understand our mechanics?" This is pretty insulting to be honest.

  5. #305
    2016 DDO Players Council LeoLionxxx's Avatar
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    Question valor of heroism?

    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    The only flaw is incorporating heroic commendations into the system, because comms of valor need to be BTA to make it workable.
    Tokens/fragments of the twelve are already BTA. I'm guessing you mean the Commendations of heroism, which are currently BTC. If that's the case, then good point. This would mean either those are excluded from my suggestion, or are changed to BTA (more likely the former).
    Because DDO content is created by hand, some issues cannot be fixed with a global change. We must fix these issues one-by-one by hand with the help of bug reports. This includes:
    Ladder issues: please include the /loc when reporting a ladder issue

  6. #306
    Community Member Desonde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tolero View Post
    So we're still reviewing feedback at the moment, but just wanted to thank you all for providing comments and concerns regarding TR. This is a main focus of attention here in the dev pit.

    Additionally, we'd also like to hear from players regarding your play patterns and sagas, as this is related ...
    - Do you feel like you understand how sagas work?
    - How easy do you find it to track your progress on sagas?
    - Do you multi-task your sagas? (e.g. running a quest because you know it will count towards more than one saga at once)
    1) Yes, Sagas are very easily understandable, complete a series of quests for a bigger reward.
    2) Difficult, basically I'd need to run my own spread sheets if I wanted to easily determine my progress on multiple sagas.
    3) Ummm, "Do you feel like you understand how sagas work?" is the first thing that comes to mind. When you complete a saga with quests in another saga they count towards the other sagas. This question is only relevant by acknowledging your tracking system is so poorly conceived that people need to run through chains top to bottom in order to complete.

    Please clarify the confusion I have on how this feedback is at all related to the comments and concerns regarding TR (Heroic TR in particular), as I'm struggling to make a connection.

    As right now it feels like your focus is on why people don't want to run sagas 50+ times every life and that this is a valid request to the player base.

    So let me clarify our side so that we can move forward on the discussion, The players' concerns are two things;
    - Level 20 Heroic Reincarnation shouldn't involve running lvl 24-28 content.
    - Iconic and Epic Reincarnation shouldn't involve running content 100+ times per incarnation.

  7. #307
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tolero View Post
    So we're still reviewing feedback at the moment, but just wanted to thank you all for providing comments and concerns regarding TR. This is a main focus of attention here in the dev pit.

    Additionally, we'd also like to hear from players regarding your play patterns and sagas, as this is related ...
    - Do you feel like you understand how sagas work?
    - How easy do you find it to track your progress on sagas?
    - Do you multi-task your sagas? (e.g. running a quest because you know it will count towards more than one saga at once)
    1. Yes.

    2. I do not find it personally to be easy. There are numerous npc's spread out in different areas. I ran one of the sagas with some guildies not too long ago. Since most of us had accepted multiple sagas looking for the right one, it was difficult to figure out whom to go to when collecting rewards.

    3. Yes.


    Given that, I'd really like to see some discussion surrounding this potentially destructive mechanic released to view on lammy. I'm not sure how deep the disconnect is here, but you guys are causing VIP's to cancel their subs, and sparking clear and present danger for this to continue. How many players do you want to lose?
    Khyber: Evandus, Halfdeadd, Licoricewhip, Sawyn, Elkabongg, Brothanumsi, Soulbro, Cromix.
    And an army of gimp experiments!

  8. #308
    2016 DDO Players Council UurlockYgmeov's Avatar
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    back to pitchforks, torches, mob mentality, and of course, rotten vegetables (and eggs!) to throw!

  9. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tolero View Post
    So we're still reviewing feedback at the moment, but just wanted to thank you all for providing comments and concerns regarding TR. This is a main focus of attention here in the dev pit.
    This is good to hear, if it's true. I'm not one to jump on the DOOM bandwagon, but I honestly think the system as it stands could kill DDO utterly - even if you lower the number of comms of valor required, increase the number granted, AND make them BtA, but still remove any mechanic to trade in tokens for hearts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tolero View Post
    Additionally, we'd also like to hear from players regarding your play patterns and sagas, as this is related ...
    - Do you feel like you understand how sagas work?
    Yes. We run quests, we hunt around for the correct saga giver, we talk to them, we get a reward. Run harder difficulties, get better rewards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tolero View Post
    - How easy do you find it to track your progress on sagas?
    Not at all. Even when you find the correct saga-giver, you still have to go through a conversation to find out where you are in the saga. Please add a "Sagas" tab to the Quest Journal that mirrors each of the "give me a list of the quests" options, with a clear list of what quests you've run on which difficulty and what still need to be run. And let the mini-map highlight the location of the saga-giver when a particular saga is highlighted, much like helping you find the quest-giver after you've finally run the quest months after picking it up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tolero View Post
    - Do you multi-task your sagas? (e.g. running a quest because you know it will count towards more than one saga at once)
    No. In fact, I've yet to run a quest simply because it was part of a saga. Of course, I also don't have any completed sagas, but that's fairly unrelated to saga mechanics in general.
    "Ignorance killed the cat, sir; curiosity was framed."
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  10. #310
    Community Member oberon131313's Avatar
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    in my opinion, unless there is a prohibitively high cost associated with keeping the token system (high volume of tickets related to, lots of work to make sure they don't break every update, etc) then simply keep the token system as is and also allow the saga option.
    Adumbrate, Sienn, Selket, Synaxis, Ognwe-, Halpin, Sivva, Bigstick, Jemus, Colichemarde
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  11. #311
    Community Member Systern's Avatar
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    1) I understand sagas. They're just too limited in scope of content covered. The fact that they encompass only content modified in the past 16 months is disappointing.

    2) /quest, /quest completions, /ransack, and Sagas should all be incorporated into the Quest Journal (bound to the 'L' key by default). /commands are clunky and un-intuitive. You need to know they exist to use them as they're not documented anywhere. It is rather odd and a complete disconnect that players get quest entries added to the journal, campaign entries added to the journal, but saga entries are left out. Again, you need to know what you're looking for to go find the information.

    3) Multi-tasking sagas isn't really hard for me. I dislike Druids Deep. More so than undead, Plant Zombies are obnoxious, and Will-o-wisp aberrations are NOT FUN. Plus the new random loot tables took out these 2 bane types. So, I don't run the sagas that include that content. I also OMFG HATE Wheloon: the purple haze gives me a migraine. So that's 3 of the 6 epic sagas that are completely off the table for me. The other sagas are easy enough to keep in my mind what their progress is. Run Gianthold for one saga, or run WoC and CitW Flagging to get the other 2 done. As a player, you can not incentivize or pay me enough to do something with my playtime that I find un-fun. So, all in all, requiring sagas for TRing just constricts and obsoletes a lot of content that I did enjoy to a very narrow subsection of what's lucrative and enjoyable.

    4) Stop looking for validation from us. All efforts in the past year and a half feel like a false dichotomy of "hard choices" and self induced schisms. From a players stand point: You build your character from 1-20, and then devolve your character into a paperdoll from 21-28. . There is an artificial barrier at level 20 from heroic to epic content. Enforcing this barrier has now made it so that I can't be on my fresh TR and chat with friends over voice because my being too small prevents them from opening a dungeon themselves. You added MotU and heroic commendations, which are raid tokens, but thumbed your noses at the previous game and tried to force players to play that content. Commendations of Valor thumb your noses at Epic dungeon tokens. It's like every update, the content you release has an ultimatum: Prove you love Us in the New Regime more than the old Regime. It feels like extortion. It's high maintenance and needy. And it's growing weary. Expansions should EXPAND the game, not constrict it.
    Last edited by Systern; 10-19-2013 at 05:41 PM.

  12. #312
    The Hatchery psteen1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon131313 View Post
    in my opinion, unless there is a prohibitively high cost associated with keeping the token system (high volume of tickets related to, lots of work to make sure they don't break every update, etc) then simply keep the token system as is and also allow the saga option.
    This. Tolero, this is what the thread is about. We aren't confused about sagas. We just don't want the tokens of the twelve option to be taken away. You haven't given us a reason why Turbine wants to do this; it is illogical for many reasons.

  13. #313
    Community Member Thlargir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tolero View Post
    So we're still reviewing feedback at the moment, ...
    Perhaps the worst idea I have ever heard from Turbine development, no, correction, the absolute worst idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tolero View Post
    - Do you feel like you understand how sagas work?
    I don't and I don't care to. If you really feel that is is important to me to understand sagas then incentivize me, don't penalize me and expect me to search for the reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tolero View Post
    - How easy do you find it to track your progress on sagas?
    Extremely easy, I have ignored them completely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tolero View Post
    - Do you multi-task your sagas?
    I have paid no attention to the mechanic at all.


    The fact that you believe interest in sagas is related to removing the current heroic TR mechanism is perhaps more telling than any of the other official guff put out so far.

  14. #314
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    Default To the devs and Tolero (hope i spelled that right)

    Tolero and Dev team :
    It's not an issue of understanding how the sagas work that we have problems with. We understand how to start a saga, how to track a saga, and how to multitask a saga. The issue that the majority of the players have are with the new system and are broken down into what i believe are 3 main arguments:
    1) changing how to get a heroic tr heart from the 12 to only being attainable from sagas. Making sagas MANDATORY instead of an OPTIONAL side that it was meant to be.
    -This makes it harder for premium players to get hearts and also means that while you can, in theory, tr at lvl 20 in essence you won't be able to tr until you hit lvl cap because many of the higher end sagas are for quests that you can only run from lvl 26+
    -this is easily corrected by retaining the 12 and epic tokens as the way of getting heroic hearts as well as making it possible to get them from doing sagas. This way both sides (pro ebberon and pro FR are appeased). It also provides options to players as how they get their heart. Someone in the thread suggested doing a turn in system for epic tokens into comms and to me this is a great idea as it would merge BOTH methods seamlessly.
    2) the amount of comms received for doing a saga is not balanced to the amount of work and time it takes to do a saga or the amount of comms needed to purchase a heart.
    -Sagas are incredibly long and incorporate multiple chains, but for doing all that work (probably 2 days worth of non stop playing) you get 17 comms ( at least according to previous posts). This is of course assuming you are running all of them at EH or greater...and for the shadowfell/ storm horn chains that means lvl 26+ min.
    -This also runs into an issue with the amount of comms needed for a single heart making it not only difficult but impractical to TR anymore as it would take as much time as getting a 3rd lifer up to 20 just to get a single heart.
    -This can be easily resolved by increasing the amount of comms received as an end saga reward and decreasing the amount of comms needed for the hearts. This would help to appease everyone as it would mean that TRing would still be a fun somewhat difficult but NOT impossible/improbable to obtain goal. This also means that the work put into the new forms of tring that the gms and the devs are working on wouldn't go to waste because in all honesty for the amount of work needed to get a single heart most will just skip iconic and epic tring and just go for the heroic heart if they tr at all.
    3)The Comms needed to tr are BTC
    -The issue with this is that many players have toons that just tr as soon as they hit lvl 20 to make the grind faster....this is especially true for completionist who may be working on a character class they don't like and are just trying to get through it asap. These players usually rely on end content main toons who are capped to farm out the tokens needed to get a heart. Making the comms btc means that they would be REQUIRED to max lvl their completion toon just to tr and as a result would make running a completionist incredibly unappealing.
    -this is the easiest fixed issue as all you would need to do is simply change the comms from btc to bta.

    Devs/mods pls understand that the changes we want is in the best interest of the game and your bottom line as you'll be alienating your ENTIRE player base if this new system goes live. If this system comes out as is the game will lose a LARGE chunk of players. Moreover the player who do stay will start hording TP just to get a tr heart as it would be more practical. while this seems like a profitable action for turbine the reality is that players won't be spending TP on cosmetic items/sp and healing pots/ and other things from the ddo store but instead horde it for tr hearts. Moreover players will most likely stop spending money to buy tp as they will see this as a way of milking us for money and the majority of ppl don't appreciate this behavior. In essence you'll be loosing $ because you'll be loosing paying customers who are already threatening to cancel their subscription and you'll be loosing it because the remaining players will stop purchasing ddo store items.

    Fellow posters attacking the devs won't make it easier for them to understand our issue and, while the changes proposed are horrible and will cause the game to decline rapidly if not die out completely, the devs won't want to read this forum if the majority of what they have to read through is attacks on them. Pointing out whats wrong with the upcoming system in a polite manner will HOPEFULLY get a better response from them then attacks or sarcasm. Also attacking each other won't help to resolve anything either and make us all seem childish. (and i'm not saying that EVERYONE in the thread are doing this i'm just pointing out that engaging in either behavior is a waste of time in the long run and
    Hopefully i've haven't missed any of the arguments against this new system and have accurately stated them. if i haven't pls feel free to correct me. Also i hopefully haven't offended anyone as that was not my intention in writing this...i just wanted to condense everyone's arguments into a single post that would be easy for Tolero/the devs to read.
    Last edited by Tolchuck; 10-19-2013 at 05:39 PM.

  15. #315
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    Hi all,

    I was given to understand when sagas were first introduced that they would just be an added bonus to the game rather than being necessary to go on with the game. The only saga I usually do is GH on elite heroic once per TR life...and even then I somehow manage to have to do some of them 2 or 3 times to complete the saga as people have real lives(school, work, children,families, etc) that they have to take care of and so I find myself in 3 or 4 groups trying to complete it.

    I chose to take my main Saaluta on the single completionist path because she is the only character I have had since this game went live in 2006. With my college courses and health problems, I cannot play as much as I used to. So it takes me anywhere from 2 weeks to several months to do a single TR life. I like being able to group with my friends when they are online, if this means doing a CITW or FOT raid with my capped monk or level 26 FvS, I do not mind getting away from the grind of TRing for a couple of hours of raiding. Otherwise, I am TRing Saaluta or working on my iconic characters.

    I am currently on life 7 of her completionist which means that I have at least 6 more to go until I am finished and can choose her final build. I usually run a couple of epic quests on her if I find I am short on tokens of the 12 as this helps me out 3 ways, I get the tokens I need and get some ED xp at the same time to get the fate points and eventually get the epic destinies/twists that will make her what I want her to be. If I am going to be forced to run sagas on epic over and over again in order to heroic TR, I will be forced to make a decision as to whether I will be continuing to play this game or spending my free time and money at the local bookstore or library instead. I like this game and want to stay, but when I feel I am being forced to play in ways that I don't enjoy in the slightest(i.e. WoW, go get me 20 wolf pelts...now go get me 50 more...which is how I feel this whole do sagas to TR is going towards) it leads me to believe that Turbine no longer wants me around, so I will take that notice and move on.

    Yes, Tolero, we do understand how sagas work and how they were introduced to work, as a bonus not a necessity.

    It is difficult, as is, to track the different sagas I agree that we need a saga tab in the adventure compendium.

    At this time, I am not interested in the sagas per se as they were introduced as an extra and I do not want to have to run those same quests 200 times per life extra just to be able to heroic tr again.

    Sorry about the long post all, but I felt that to get the point across I would need to explain why I do not like this change.

    Saal

    P.S. BTC is bad, BTA is better if this does go live...then I actually have a reason to run my 26 FvS besides the odd guild/friends raid.
    Last edited by Saaluta; 10-19-2013 at 05:37 PM.
    "Fools said I, you do not know. Silence like a cancer grows, hear my words that I might teach you, take my hand that I might reach you, but my words like silent raindrops fell...."-Paul Simon "Day after day, we caught no breath or motion. As idle as a painted ship upon a painted ocean."--Coleridge

  16. #316
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tolero View Post
    So we're still reviewing feedback at the moment, but just wanted to thank you all for providing comments and concerns regarding TR. This is a main focus of attention here in the dev pit.

    Additionally, we'd also like to hear from players regarding your play patterns and sagas, as this is related ...
    - Do you feel like you understand how sagas work?
    - How easy do you find it to track your progress on sagas?
    - Do you multi-task your sagas? (e.g. running a quest because you know it will count towards more than one saga at once)
    - Do you feel like you understand how sagas work?
    Yes
    - How easy do you find it to track your progress on sagas?
    Yes
    - Do you multi-task your sagas? (e.g. running a quest because you know it will count towards more than one saga at once)[/QUOTE]
    Yes

    my main concern is Commendations of Valor being in the Saga reward list.

    Please consider auto granting the Commendations of Valor on Saga completion so we can still choose one of the other Saga rewards.

    Saga rewards has been one of the great new features of the game and forcing those who wish to Reincarnate to ignore all the rewards to collect Commendations instead basically takes all the fun out of Sagas.
    I have hope that when this goes live the amount of Commendations of Valor to obtain a heart will be reasonable.

  17. #317
    The Hatchery Scraap's Avatar
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    I will say this about the sagas-as-resolution notion: IF you wanted to tie every single epicable pack or pair of packs to a self-contained saga, with options to pull a seal or shard alongside token-equivalents, that might come close to what we have now without killing prior investments with enough of a bump-up to come out as a net-positive for folks still interested in that portion of your portfolio. Wouldn't do jack to the continued hatchet-job on the cannith challenges though.

  18. #318
    Community Member Ebondevil's Avatar
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    Here's another suggestion:

    1) Throw the New Shiny Commendation idea out the window

    2) Add Heroic, Iconic and Epic Hearts as an Epic saga reward option in addition to the current options, so the reward list has:
    • Experience
    • 1-4 Skill Tomes
    • Guild Renown
    • True Heart of Wood
    • Iconic Heart of Wood
    • Epic Heart of Wood


    3) Add Heroic Hearts of Wood to Heroic Sagas, so the reward list has:
    • Experience
    • 1-4 Skill Tomes
    • Guild Renown
    • True Heart of Wood


    4) Leave the True Hearts of Wood available from the 12

    5) Optionally make the Hearts Bound to Account.

    6) Bask in the Adoration of your players

    Edit:
    Personally I would prefer 1 to be:
    Throw whoever thought of the the New Shiny Commendations, out of the window.
    But I suspect I would get in trouble for suggesting that.
    Last edited by Ebondevil; 10-19-2013 at 05:45 PM.

  19. #319
    Community Member arkonas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tolero View Post
    So we're still reviewing feedback at the moment, but just wanted to thank you all for providing comments and concerns regarding TR. This is a main focus of attention here in the dev pit.

    Additionally, we'd also like to hear from players regarding your play patterns and sagas, as this is related ...
    - Do you feel like you understand how sagas work?
    - How easy do you find it to track your progress on sagas?
    - Do you multi-task your sagas? (e.g. running a quest because you know it will count towards more than one saga at once)
    its a bad idea to connect it to trs. What are you guys thinking? Before you could run any epic quest non forgotten realms or gh and get epic tokens/fragments then tr. you could even run challenges. So that meant you didn't need to own tons of epic packs to do this or you could buy a lot of them. Now you're "FORCE" people to buy forgotten realms or expansions in order to do the new tr. that is not cool. no one wants to run gianthold into the ground just to tr.

    Not to mention even with the other sagas i bet you will only give like a small amount of commendations. tokens of the 12 are useless now. no one will care about those packs really or the augments from the 12 vendor. Let's not alienate the population even more by forcing players into situations like this. why can't the 12 or sagas work together? mmmm? no reason to retire anything. convert the tokens to commendations.

  20. #320

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scraap View Post
    I will say this about the sagas-as-resolution notion: IF you wanted to tie every single epicable pack or pair of packs to a self-contained saga, with options to pull a seal or shard alongside token-equivalents, that might come close to what we have now without killing prior investments with enough of a bump-up to come out as a net-positive for folks still interested in that portion of your portfolio. Wouldn't do jack to the continued hatchet-job on the cannith challenges though.
    They need to be BTA to come anywhere near what we have now. Also agreed on the need to connect cannith challenges into the new system.

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