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  1. #1
    The Hatchery whomhead's Avatar
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    Default Are dark monks now pointless?

    PLEASE NOTE: ANY AND ALL USE OF THE WORDS GIMP, GIMPITUDE, GIMPITUDINAL, OR GIMPORIFFICAL IS NOT INTENDED TO ACTUALLY APPLY TO ANY CHARACTERS, PLAYERS OR MINOR DEITIES. I use them merely to raise a question in tongue-in-cheek fashion. I sincerely offer my deepest heart-felt apologies to any game users hurt by my insensitive approach to discussing how magnificently gimporiffical your beloved dark monks are. /note. You may now proceed to your regularly scheduled thread.


    It used to be that dark monks got shadow fade at level 6 and then touch of death at 9. Together, these were such a potent combination of offense and defense that to not go dark meant any character with more than three levels of light monk was, to put it bluntly, utterly and irrevocably gimp.

    After U19, if you go dark monk you get.... an activatable attack that does paltry damage (and is one of about 5 hotbars worth of activatable damage attacks you can choose from), a few random debuffs, and the ability to waste AP on some ninja poison special moves that you can use once a minute.

    Light monks get the healing curse, and the ability to cast a decently boosted mass cure critical wounds approximately once a minute. Plus all the goodies dark monks used to get.

    So, am I missing something, or has the gimpitude undergone a complete reversal?
    Last edited by whomhead; 10-19-2013 at 01:34 PM.

  2. #2
    Community Member Soulfurnace's Avatar
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    Dark monks enhancements are still better, but now you can heal yourself with fists of light. (HAH.)

  3. #3
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    Your statement is so utterly incorrect it hurts my brain. Dark monks are fine now and Light monks were great before and are even more so now

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    Community Member Soulfurnace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uska View Post
    Your statement is so utterly incorrect it hurts my brain. Dark monks are fine now and Light monks were great before and are even more so now
    Light monks, great before...
    Go on, I'd love an explanation. Banishing fist didn't quite work on much at endgame.
    Nor did, quite honestly, any light/dark monk DC abilities.

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    I went dark on my HM, Shadows Cannot Exist Without Light is awesome. What might look bad for a certain build could be awesome for a different one.

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    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulfurnace View Post
    Light monks, great before...
    Go on, I'd love an explanation.
    They could Hjeal meh!

  7. #7
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Yeah, have to agree that dark monks have gotten rather weak.

    Part of this is due to no longer requiring Dark path for Shadow Fade (Veil), but it's also got to do with a lot of Ninja Spy now requiring non-handwraps, and the Dark/Dark/Dark finisher being DC based, and without any real way to boost it to make up for levels 21-28 not increasing the DC (and EE mobs having super-inflated saves).

    Light was kind of weak before, in part because nothing it got was quite as strong as Shadow Fade and Touch of Death. Now that they can get the former, and the latter is broken/nerfed, they've pulled ahead.

    I'd love to try more of the Ninja Spy stuff on my monk, but I refuse to change over to short swords.

    This is a problem the monk trees have at the moment: you can't go very deep into Henshin unless you spend a lot of AP on staff-only junk, and you lose about 1/3 of the Ninja Spy tree to piercing/slashing only stuff. If you're unarmed, there's a lot of stuff in your class enhancements you can't use, which is kind of puzzling to me.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uska View Post
    Your statement is so utterly incorrect it hurts my brain. Dark monks are fine now and Light monks were great before and are even more so now
    I wholeheartedly agree with this statement. However, you can't tell minmaxers something like that, because they won't understand you. If one build has a slight advantage (e.g. 20.4 more dps at level cap) then the other, then it's uber. The one with 20.4 dps less- "pointless" and "utterly and irrevocably gimp". There is no grey area here. And for all that's unholy, don't even mention that they are both viable and fun unless you think a pitchfork would make a good addition to your physique.


    As to the OP: Yes, go play a barbarian.

  9. #9
    The Hatchery whomhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uska View Post
    Your statement is so utterly incorrect it hurts my brain. Dark monks are fine now and Light monks were great before and are even more so now
    By statement, I assume you must have actually meant question. Because, you know, I asked the question "Are dark monks now pointless?" You see that little squiggly thing at the end? (Oh! There it is again!) That's a question mark. It denotes a question.

    And hey, thanks for the well-thought out and insightful answer....

    Quote Originally Posted by Replliw View Post
    As to the OP: Yes, go play a barbarian.
    Honestly, I'm quite surprised by the anger in some of these responses. Calling me a min-maxer, and telling me to go play a barbarian...? What the heck, dude? I truly thought it was clear that the phrase utterly and irrovocably gimp was so over-the-top as to be obviously not meant to to be taken seriously. You can play any dang thing you want, bro. Knock yourself out!

    Oh yeah, and thanks for explaining all the great things that dark monks have over light. I feel so much more informed! Wait, nope. You just cast some veiled insights and then left a lingering stink in the thread on your way out.

    Legit thanks to Spencerian and Ayseifn for providing actual information. I assume Ays meant Every Light Casts a Shadow, which seems to be quite nice... if it weren't a tier 5 ability in the Henshin line, which I (and I'm fully willing to admit I am probably missing something) find to be a lot of AP used in a sub-par tree, plus it locks you out of touch of death.

    In response to Spencerian, I haven't tried using ninja poison yet as all of my monks are unarmed, and I can't see any way to reliably get ninja poison going to any great degree unless, as you indicated, one uses slashing/piercing weapons. Is that something most monks are doing these days, even after the nerf so it doesn't work with ranged or unarmed? I think it is great that shortsword-using monks have some goodies going for them now, but I still don't see many/any pure monks (implied by your bringing up the Ninja Master core ability) running around using SS or kamas.

    If unarmed, then the only way I see to get ninja poison stacked is using the touch of despair finisher and actually successfully landing the finisher (which is a fort save, so pretty high on most mobs) and then using the finisher AGAIN to set off the poison exploit. That's a very drawn out process to get that damage burst. Probably good for bosses, but nigh impossible on trash.

    Finally, I should clarify that by dark monk I simply meant taking the Inevitable Dominion feat over Harmonious Balance. Many of the abilities mentioned so far, including all of the abilities in the Ninja tree except the poison exploit, can still be used with the light monk feat. Likewise, almost all of the shintao abilities can be used by a dark monk.

    So please, enlighten me oh great, wise, and beneficent forum-densizens on the value of Inevitable Dominion.
    Last edited by whomhead; 10-19-2013 at 12:42 PM.

  10. #10
    Community Member HatsuharuZ's Avatar
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    OP, people are going to take your words at face value unless you have a sarcasm tag or something. We're not exactly having a face-to-face conversation here.

    As for your question: No, I don't think so.

    Why don't you go play a dark monk and find out for yourself?

  11. #11
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    It's Shadows Cannot Exist Without Light, you take the one that's opposite to your path. It's a 10 sec DoT with a 6 sec cooldown and if the mob dies you get an AoE cure for 100+ heal amp. Once you get used to it you can just run around tagging mobs for people and moving on or DoTing a couple of mobs close together, I have renew twisted and heal scrolls too but this gets me through most quests for free.

    That's the main reason I went so deep in HM, the other is the acrobat tree isn't worth going deep on. If you're building a staff user you'll probably mix in monk and rog levels and go dex or str based anyway, so skipping all the DC based attacks is fine.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by whomhead View Post
    By statement, I assume you must have actually meant question. Because, you know, I asked the question "Are dark monks now pointless?" You see that little squiggly thing at the end? (Oh! There it is again!) That's a question mark. It denotes a question.

    And hey, thanks for the well-thought out and insightful answer....



    Honestly, I'm quite surprised by the anger in some of these responses. Calling me a min-maxer, and telling me to go play a barbarian...? What the heck, dude? I truly thought it was clear that the phrase utterly and irrovocably gimp was so over-the-top as to be obviously not meant to to be taken seriously. You can play any dang thing you want, bro. Knock yourself out!

    Oh yeah, and thanks for explaining all the great things that dark monks have over light. I feel so much more informed! Wait, nope. You just cast some veiled insights and then left a lingering stink in the thread on your way out.

    Legit thanks to Spencerian and Ayseifn for providing actual information. I assume Ays meant Every Light Casts a Shadow, which seems to be quite nice... if it weren't a tier 5 ability in the Henshin line, which I (and I'm fully willing to admit I am probably missing something) find to be a lot of AP used in a sub-par tree, plus it locks you out of touch of death.

    In response to Spencerian, I haven't tried using ninja poison yet as all of my monks are unarmed, and I can't see any way to reliably get ninja poison going to any great degree unless, as you indicated, one uses slashing/piercing weapons. Is that something most monks are doing these days, even after the nerf so it doesn't work with ranged or unarmed? I think it is great that shortsword-using monks have some goodies going for them now, but I still don't see many/any pure monks (implied by your bringing up the Ninja Master core ability) running around using SS or kamas.

    If unarmed, then the only way I see to get ninja poison stacked is using the touch of despair finisher and actually successfully landing the finisher (which is a fort save, so pretty high on most mobs) and then using the finisher AGAIN to set off the poison exploit. That's a very drawn out process to get that damage burst. Probably good for bosses, but nigh impossible on trash.

    Finally, I should clarify that by dark monk I simply meant taking the Inevitable Dominion feat over Harmonious Balance. Many of the abilities mentioned so far, including all of the abilities in the Ninja tree except the poison exploit, can still be used with the light monk feat. Likewise, almost all of the shintao abilities can be used by a dark monk.

    So please, enlighten me oh great, wise, and beneficent forum-densizens on the value of Inevitable Dominion.
    another one for the list

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  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by whomhead View Post
    It used to be that dark monks got shadow fade at level 6 and then touch of death at 9. Together, these were such a potent combination of offense and defense that to not go dark meant any character with more than three levels of light monk was, to put it bluntly, utterly and irrevocably gimp.

    After U19, if you go dark monk you get.... an activatable attack that does paltry damage (and is one of about 5 hotbars worth of activatable damage attacks you can choose from), a few random debuffs, and the ability to waste AP on some ninja poison special moves that you can use once a minute.

    Light monks get the healing curse, and the ability to cast a decently boosted mass cure critical wounds approximately once a minute. Plus all the goodies dark monks used to get.

    So, am I missing something, or has the gimpitude undergone a complete reversal?
    It really depends on something that DDO cannot fully control: Your expectations.

    Ninja Spies had it far, far worse before U19, relying mostly on the Dark Monk's then-only awesome attack, the Touch of Death. They also got sneak attack damage and that was it. They once had the elemental debuffers now present in the Henshin Mystic line.

    With U19, the Ninjas gain Vorpal on any piercing and slashing weapon by 20, superior stealth improvements with the new AI change, and one continually-underappreciated attack: Poison. It's now a VERY potent damage-over-time effect used by many enemies to damage or kill. Go visit the Drow in the Underdark and see how your characters get very nasty DoTs from Drow fights. Even Arraetreikos long-in-place CON poison now works more reliably in the Shroud...with a 1,000 point death blow if you ignore the initial poison. Got hit with that yesterday.

    The Ninja Poison is bad going in and out. It takes patience and the right weapon to use it, but if you're the pushy-button thrashing reflex-gamer sort, it might not be what you think is useful.

    As others have mentioned, being able to neg level a crowd continually with ki is terribly effective.

    The Shadow Veil effect lost only the passive ki regeneration, but you retrieve a bit of that from other enhancements.

    In short, to play a dark Monk means going Ninja. There's hardly anything gimpy about these characters now.

    As for Shintao, I find it has a tiny gimp...it overly favors the Earth Stance. I would have preferred to see a more dynamic benefit to each stance.
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  14. #14
    Community Member thegreatneil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whomhead View Post
    PLEASE NOTE: ANY AND ALL USE OF THE WORDS GIMP, GIMPITUDE, GIMPITUDINAL, OR GIMPORIFFICAL IS NOT INTENDED TO ACTUALLY APPLY TO ANY CHARACTERS, PLAYERS OR MINOR DEITIES. I use them merely to raise a question in tongue-in-cheek fashion. I sincerely offer my deepest heart-felt apologies to any game users hurt by my insensitive approach to discussing how magnificently gimporiffical your beloved dark monks are. /note. You may now proceed to your regularly scheduled thread.


    It used to be that dark monks got shadow fade at level 6 and then touch of death at 9. Together, these were such a potent combination of offense and defense that to not go dark meant any character with more than three levels of light monk was, to put it bluntly, utterly and irrevocably gimp.

    After U19, if you go dark monk you get.... an activatable attack that does paltry damage (and is one of about 5 hotbars worth of activatable damage attacks you can choose from), a few random debuffs, and the ability to waste AP on some ninja poison special moves that you can use once a minute.

    Light monks get the healing curse, and the ability to cast a decently boosted mass cure critical wounds approximately once a minute. Plus all the goodies dark monks used to get.

    So, am I missing something, or has the gimpitude undergone a complete reversal?
    Yes, Yes they are.
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    Quote Originally Posted by blerkington View Post
    Everyone who is more effective than me is OP, and should be nerfed.
    Everyone who has more stuff than me cheated to get it, and should be punished.
    Everyone who plays differently to me is a bad person, and should be mistreated.

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