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  1. #41
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antiguo View Post
    Stating facts is not trashing anyone.

    Lets get real, the time used to develop the ASAH is wasted, the new loot system and new named loot is booring and pityful, the economic choices of Turbine, focusing on moneygrabbing astral shards schemes instead good content, are rather poor, and this expansion cant even compare whit MoTU.

    The game is still great, dont get me wrong, but lately Turbine decisions are being pretty bad. Getting rid of the ASAH would be a nice turning point i say.
    Right. Get more players out there questing again and maybe it would help the lfm. Fix drop rates to be more fair and make grind for loot worth the time and effort. Do a pass with all epic gear to make at least the majority of it worth aiming for and grinding for. Make epic items actually better than random loot. All these things fixed or changed makes for a happier player base and Turbine can still profit without the P2WAH.

  2. #42
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zDragonz View Post
    Random Loot: The only weapons I have been able to sell so far is Wraps. The rest of the weapons do not sell even though they may be awesome.

    Why is this?
    Because everyone is looting the same stuff. There's not enough variety. Random loot invalidates some named gear.

  3. #43
    The Hatchery Antiguo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pandir View Post
    Uh i think we have a disagreement on the word support. I don't buy from my supermarket because i want to support it i buy there because it offers something i want.
    Meaning you support that mmmmm lets say toilet paper over the other brand of toilet paper next to it.

    Dont forget there's a choice here, if you use the box you are chosing not to level those levels questing, so you are supporting the use of the box over the questing. If you were against the use of the boxes (meaning you didnt support them), you wouldnt use them. Simple.

  4. #44
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pandir View Post
    Uh i think we have a disagreement on the word support. I don't buy from my supermarket because i want to support it i buy there because it offers something i want.
    You are supporting it by buying from it.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  5. #45
    Community Member Ashlayna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antiguo View Post
    Yeah, i'm pretty sure all this spreadsheet kind of loot whit only 10 or 11 different mutations is so exciting you feel like on fire.....

    The only reason the new loot is "killing raid gear" (and i have no problem whit that, new loot MUST kill OLD raid gear) is because it has bigger numbers on it.

    The problem whit the loot is not the "big numbah!!", it's the lack of variety, go look for that thread whit the list of vanished old loot mutations and come back telling me the new look is exciting and fun, i dare you.
    If you've been following that thread, you'd know I've already been there. So what you're saying is people don't know what they want? The new stuff is good enough to replace their old gear, which they used while all the missing permutations on the loot existed, but them being missing is boring? My take is the old, and not so old affixes do need to return. That's rather off topic to this discussion, but since you brought it up, if it's so boring, how is it that those protesting loudest are actually using it? So hear you are, attempting to shout me down about this, just as somebody else attempted to shout me down about some of the not so old gear still being BiS for me. So I guess, despite your claims, that I do indeed prefer some of the older loot over some of the newer. We were supposed to be getting real, not basing the dialog on your misconceived perceptions. These are subjective, and therefore cannot be real to everyone, since everyone's opinions will vary.

    There are also lots of posts about how raid gear shouldn't be so easily replaced. But, you and I do agree on this, to a point, new content, with new gear/gear types should make some older gear obsolete, just not all of it.

  6. #46
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    People are getting fed up with cash grab mechanics in MMOs, and I cant wait til it gets to the point where companies have to re-tether the financial success of the division to the quality of the game itself.
    That's never going to happen. The days of "pure" MMO cash mechanics (I'm defining that as buy the box, pay the monthly, buy the expansion and nothing in between) is gone and except in very rare circumstances will never come back.

    Every MMO with a trading mechanic (ie: all of them) has a very busy external market. This market operates in both digital currency (I'll trade you SwordX for StaffY) and also real currency (I'll give you 20 bucks for SwordX). Old MMO's didn't have a method for inserting themselves into that interaction and didn't know if it was really worth it to do so. The industrialization of gold farmers, particularly in WoW, showed game companies loud and clear how lucrative those markets could be.

    Due to that, MMO's have been trying to get themselves into the "extras" and "meta markets" ever since. These come in the form of "cash grabs" in many cases. By giving people the option to go through a trusted source vs a potentially unreliable source, a good many will choose the more expensive reliable source. These are your cash shops/shard exchanges etc etc.

    Further, thanks primarily to Riot Games, the F2P model has been shown to have an absolutely outrageous profit margin when done correctly. While Turbine has done a decent job of it for a game that wasn't designed with F2P specifically in mind, the marketing theory behind it is still supported well.

    For lots of people time is the resource they have very little of. I, for example, work 45-55 hours a week, have a wife, a dog, play sports a few times a week and have occasional family obligations. For me, buying a sword of teh aw3s0me for 20 bucks makes a LOT more sense then spending 6-7 hours grinding for one.

    Really, it's just to open MMO's to another market. Traditional MMO "elites" have LOTS of time available giving them the resource needed to be the original masters of the content. A secondary market of gamers that are busy, working professionals also like the game but simply don't have the time to see the games full content without a side market (ie: cash to catch up).

    For MMO's to truly optimize and cater to the whole playerbase they need to give working professionals a reason to buy expansions ie: ways to finish the existing content. Cash shops are the primary means to accomplishing this.

    So, don't expect cash shops and "hidden" cash shops to ever stop. If anything, MMO's will probably become more centered around these systems once Riot Games goes public (if they do) and makes their mountains of cash public knowledge.

    TLDR: Cash shops and "money grabs" will never go away. You might as well get used to them.
    Last edited by Xianio; 10-18-2013 at 08:55 AM.

  7. #47
    The Hatchery Antiguo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    Right. Get more players out there questing again and maybe it would help the lfm. Fix drop rates to be more fair and make grind for loot worth the time and effort. Do a pass with all epic gear to make at least the majority of it worth aiming for and grinding for. Make epic items actually better than random loot. All these things fixed or changed makes for a happier player base and Turbine can still profit without the P2WAH.
    Exactly, and add back some of the rare prefixes/suffixes vanished, woundrous should mean something rare and amazing, not +2 to item level.

  8. #48
    Community Member Ashlayna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antiguo View Post
    Meaning you support that mmmmm lets say toilet paper over the other brand of toilet paper next to it.

    Dont forget there's a choice here, if you use the box you are chosing not to level those levels questing, so you are supporting the use of the box over the questing. If you were against the use of the boxes (meaning you didnt support them), you wouldnt use them. Simple.
    It's interesting that you bring this up. I used a box on my FvS's first life, and found that, despite the quick advancement in levels, I still had to run those quests, for favor. So what time did I really save?

  9. #49
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pandir View Post
    Who really said people actually support P2W. They use it because it's an easy way to get what they want. The easiest way to get something is obviously free and withoout effort, so it just makes sense people use that over the ASAH.

    I like Otto's boxes, i like them because i don't like heroic leveling too much, i prefer the epics. If they weren't offered i probably wouldn't finish more than 2 TR's. I have no loyality to the Otto's boxes though if they give me a free 1-20 button on character creation i'll use that and skip the boxes:P.
    Most of the excuse of supporting it from those who disagreed with me over 3 years of threads on the topic was that it makes Turbine money. Then the mass waffling of 2012-2013 occurred and people got a whole bunch of stuff free - thus invalidating the excuse that it makes Turbine money when some of them tried to justify what they did, even going as far as using "Turbines poor decision making and implementation" as an excuse. If they didnt support those decisions in the first place, Turbine would have had to change their tune on them much earlier on.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  10. #50
    The Hatchery Antiguo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashlayna View Post
    It's interesting that you bring this up. I used a box on my FvS's first life, and found that, despite the quick advancement in levels, I still had to run those quests, for favor. So what time did I really save?
    Yeah, i too think that using the boxes is a pretty bad idea.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antiguo View Post
    Meaning you support that mmmmm lets say toilet paper over the other brand of toilet paper next to it.

    Dont forget there's a choice here, if you use the box you are chosing not to level those levels questing, so you are supporting the use of the box over the questing. If you were against the use of the boxes (meaning you didnt support them), you wouldnt use them. Simple.
    Ok Toilet paper. I don't buy brands, if the one supermarket has toiletpaper in acceptable price/quality i buy there if they one next door has a better offer next week i'll use that one.

    Same here. If they didn't offer the boxes i'd sit at my 2 TR's and be about as happy. The boxes enable me to do a few more past lifes without being too bored(And no except for a 90% reduction in XP even a first life curve wouldn't change that). An offer i find acceptable for the price.
    The shard AH i find not acceptable in cost to benefit, nor was the bigbys boxes so i don't get them.

    My main point was about that has nothing to do with support or loyality to the P2W stuff, just people taking advantage of an offer they find acceptable. The cheat was just the better offer.
    As such i have not much loyality to Turbine or DDO either, they just offer a game i happen to enjoy at the moment.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Most of the excuse of supporting it from those who disagreed with me over 3 years of threads on the topic was that it makes Turbine money. Then the mass waffling of 2012-2013 occurred and people got a whole bunch of stuff free - thus invalidating the excuse that it makes Turbine money when some of them tried to justify what they did, even going as far as using "Turbines poor decision making and implementation" as an excuse. If they didnt support those decisions in the first place, Turbine would have had to change their tune on them much earlier on.
    Well it does make Turbine money otherwise they wouldn't do it, but if the actual justification was they do it to support Turbine by giving them money, well i would not believe that either.

  13. #53
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xianio View Post
    That's never going to happen. The days of "pure" MMO cash mechanics (I'm defining that as buy the box, pay the monthly, buy the expansion and nothing in between) is gone and except in very rare circumstances will never come back.

    Every MMO with a trading mechanic (ie: all of them) has a very busy external market. This market operates in both digital currency (I'll trade you SwordX for StaffY) and also real currency (I'll give you 20 bucks for SwordX). Old MMO's didn't have a method for inserting themselves into that interaction and didn't know if it was really worth it to do so. The industrialization of gold farmers, particularly in WoW, showed game companies loud and clear how lucrative those markets could be.

    Due to that, MMO's have been trying to get themselves into the "extras" and "meta markets" ever since. These come in the form of "cash grabs" in many cases. By giving people the option to go through a trusted source vs a potentially unreliable source, a good many will choose the more expensive reliable source. These are your cash shops/shard exchanges etc etc.

    Further, thanks primarily to Riot Games, the F2P model has been shown to have an absolutely outrageous profit margin when done correctly. While Turbine has done a decent job of it for a game that wasn't designed with F2P specifically in mind, the marketing theory behind it is still supported well.

    For lots of people time is the resource they have very little of. I, for example, work 45-55 hours a week, have a wife, a dog, play sports a few times a week and have occasional family obligations. For me, buying a sword of teh aw3s0me for 20 bucks makes a LOT more sense then spending 6-7 hours grinding for one.

    Really, it's just to open MMO's to another market. Traditional MMO "elites" have LOTS of time available giving them the resource needed to be the original masters of the content. A secondary market of gamers that are busy, working professionals also like the game but simply don't have the time to see the games full content without a side market (ie: cash to catch up).

    For MMO's to truly optimize and cater to the whole playerbase they need to give working professionals a reason to buy expansions ie: ways to finish the existing content. Cash shops are the primary means to accomplishing this.

    So, don't expect cash shops and "hidden" cash shops to ever stop. If anything, MMO's will probably become more centered around these systems once Riot Games goes public (if they do) and makes their mountains of cash public knowledge.

    TLDR: Cash shops and "money grabs" will never go away. You might as well get used to them.
    I dont believe this at all, and any objective observation of the industry will tell you that these cash grab mechanics have reached their peak as far as success is concerned. It has reached its saturation point. Yes there are still whales who will pay thousands of RL dollars for a pixelated island in a pixelated ocean somewhere in cyberspace, but what we are seeing is the more blatent the cash grab mechanics become, the less and less support they receive. Real money auction house was pretty blatent.

    It may be a while yet, but Im thinking we will see a resurgence of sub only, or sub games with cash shop lite. Enough games have been created around cash shop mechanics now where the quality of the game doesnt improve, but the quantity of opportunities within the cash shop "improves" - and hopefully sooner than later companies will figure out that if they want long term users they will have to tether the financial success of the company to the quality and quality increase of the game itself, rather than keeping it tethered to cash shop opportunities. When they do not do this the game becomes a revolving door for people to play for a much smaller time than they would in the traditional MMO days, then bounce when it is no longer entertaining. When the quality of the game is not the focus, it doesnt stay entertaining for any length of time that could be deemed "long term" for any significant percentage of users.
    Last edited by Chai; 10-18-2013 at 09:10 AM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  14. #54
    Community Member Forzah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Most of the excuse of supporting it from those who disagreed with me over 3 years of threads on the topic was that it makes Turbine money. Then the mass waffling of 2012-2013 occurred and people got a whole bunch of stuff free - thus invalidating the excuse that it makes Turbine money when some of them tried to justify what they did, even going as far as using "Turbines poor decision making and implementation" as an excuse. If they didnt support those decisions in the first place, Turbine would have had to change their tune on them much earlier on.
    That lame excuse is just ********, man. You exploit because you can get something for free that would otherwise cost time or money, or simply because it's fun. Not because of the direction of the game.

    Moreover, it makes perfect sense for P2W supporters to exploit. They make an economic decision to buy the item. Suppose a customer values the item at $5 and it costs $3, then his "utility" for buying the item is $2. When it is free his "utility" is $5. As we can expect the customer to be a utility maximizer, it makes sense for him to exploit.

    People who are disgusted by P2W may have a negative utility for the item, say -$5. They are not willing to exploit, because it does not increase the fun they get out of the game. And then there's the people who thought $3 was too expensive, which will also get the item for free from exploiting.

    So for anyone who is willing to pay for a feature, exploiting makes sense economically.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forzah View Post
    That lame excuse is just ********, man. You exploit because you can get something for free that would otherwise cost time or money, or simply because it's fun. Not because of the direction of the game.
    That's actually what mainly bothered me about the exploit, if you exploit you exploit doesn't affect me much but if you're stupid enough to get caught then accept the consequences and don't come crying and trying to shift the blame to someone else.

  16. #56
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    I dont believe this at all, and any objective observation of the industry will tell you that these cash grab mechanics have reached their peak as far as success is concerned. It has reached its saturation point. Yes there are still whales who will pay thousands of RL dollars for a pixelated island in a pixelated ocean somewhere in cyberspace, but what we are seeing is the more blatent the cash grab mechanics become, the less and less support they receive. Real money auction house was pretty blatent.
    This is blatantly untrue. Your "objective observation" simply isn't supported by facts. Sorry man.

    Lets start with the primary reason "F2P + microtransaction buy in" is becoming the #1 method for always-on always-growing games.
    1) Riot Games
    Riot Games is a 3-4 year old start up (measuring from launch) that has, for the first time, demonstrated the extreme strength of a true F2P + Microtransaction payment model. In less than 5 years Riot Games has gone from a company owing money to many investors to a (estimated) billion-dollar company. With 5 million concurrent players a day and 150,000 years worth of time spent in LoL per year the 10-20% "regular purchasers" they report in the micro-transaction field is notably greater than what traditional MMO's have been able to accomplish through monthly fees.

    2) The move to micro-transaction across media
    Micro transactions have grown substantially in the past 3 years. In the past, small studios would regularly create gated content the could be accessed with small amounts of money and regularly considered the old model of P2W. Now, major game studios including Sony (Dead Space), Capcom (DLC), Blizzard and MMO's across the board are adopting F2P + microtransactions.

    3) The average age of gamers is increasing.
    The average age of a video game player is now reported to be 36-38 years old, white male in dual income households 1 or fewer children. In the upcoming years this will increase as will the number of children per household (for this primary demographic). This is a HUGE incentive to find ways to give gamers the same 'thrills' they had before without losing out on the 16-25 "all the time in the world" market. One of the best ways to accomplish this is through smart P2W (which is quickly becoming Pay to Rush, not win because that's smarter).

    Finally, F2P economic theory is receiving PhD level attention in economic departments and psychology departments in some of the most forward thinking universities. This will likely result in new methods being explored in the upcoming years.

    Remember, gaming is the single most lucrative entertainment media in the world and a single company just figured out how to make more money, faster than anyone had ever done before. This is HUGE and will change the fundamental landscape of payment models in gaming.

    Want to vanguard the old way? Go ahead, but you're in for frustration, not vindication.
    Last edited by Xianio; 10-18-2013 at 10:40 AM.

  17. #57
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    There has always been play to win since China has these kids working 18 hours a day for 3 weeks in a row.

    Turbine is tapping into the gold market and putting the Chinese out of business. It is kinda sick what these Chinese workers do. They use to never have days off, but the suicide rate was bad, so now they get them some sun once in a while. I think it is one day off every 3 weeks. You think playing MMOs can be bad. Imagine if it was your job 18 hours a day for weeks without rest.

    Turbine is undercutting these 3rd party companies and they should. It is a fine balance, but Turbine should be getting the money instead of these 3rd party companies. I think they have balanced things out well. However the latest gear release has gimped too much raid gear. A little too much power creep. I am however glad Bloodstones are not a big deal now. I like some power creep cause it means you do not need to grind so much. Just be patient. We need some level 30 raids. Maybe some raids already in the game with some new loot revamped with new lvl 30 loot in power. The content needs to adjust. Maybe EH is too easy.

    The game has to change to keep players interested. Try not to get them to leave. There will be mistakes along the way. A little too much here or there, but I think the goal is to keep things interesting. At least Turbine is fair IMHO when they make major changes they give out the LRs.

    I like the Raid timers in the free economy, and the mana pots from the DDO store. I like what I am seeing int he ASAH cause I think it is pretty funny. The prices are not for the average player that knows the game and what things are worth.

    Some people like me don't have the time that 15 year olds have. Maybe the teenagers should get a job and buy stuff from the game instead of wasting their time grinding all the time. Go get a job. Learn something new. Meet people. Learn to social interact face to face instead of electronically. Maybe go on a date. No trolling here. This is important life stuff.
    Last edited by firemedium_jt; 10-18-2013 at 10:29 AM.
    Your lack of healing amp not my problem. Please buy and use your own remove curse pots in combat, so I don't waste mana. Not my job.

  18. #58
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xianio View Post
    Nope, definitely not.

    This isn't a game play decision, it's an economic and political decision. The nice thing for Blizzard is that it's also very easy PR to say "hey we're doing it for you" when that's really not the driving factor at all.

    Something important to note about this choice is that the removal will occur shortly before D3 enters the console market. This is the most likely reason for the removal of the AH. Consoles are significantly more complicated economically as Blizzard now needs to deal with a 3rd part intermediary in addition to another layer of transactions (country/currency for the PC which is currently at least 4-5 markets and then double that as consoles would require their own unique systems).

    What's more, Sony may not be willing to give the Blizzard team the constant stream of info they need to safeguard credit card info for which they would be liable.
    If the game consoles you were referring to were something like the Atari 2600, I would definitely agree with you. However, the mechanics of putting in purchasing systems into something like Xbox 360 or Xbox One are relatively trivial. In fact, many of these systems will be online-dependent for the unforeseeable future. At least that’s where the market is going. And it is going there at light speed. So if you are making a console game, you want “in” on that revenue stream.

    Furthermore – admittedly not knowing the internal details of how Blizzard builds their software – the clearing house for payment information is generally not maintained by Blizzard, nor would they be the one who develops the transactions to update payment info into their system – that would be most likely contracted out. And there are a lot of places that have expertise in this area.

    Doing a little research on how Blizzard implemented transactions, they took a fairly hefty chunk of percentage from each transaction (I think something like 15%), where maybe 2 – 6% is really maybe the overhead. That leaves about 9% in revenue for basically doing nothing.

    Given the uproar that preceded Diablo III by their fanatical (unhinged) fan-base, I have little reason to doubt their explanation on this matter.

    Granted, I am not a member of the team at Blizzard that handles these things, and so I am speaking from ignorance. However, I have a decent knowledge how those system work, who holds the data, how the data is processed, and how some of these systems interact.

  19. #59
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xianio View Post
    That's never going to happen. The days of "pure" MMO cash mechanics (I'm defining that as buy the box, pay the monthly, buy the expansion and nothing in between) is gone and except in very rare circumstances will never come back.
    I've been in the software industry for over two decades now. The term "will never come back" is one I stopped using about 10 - 15 years ago.

    The cash mechanics of an MMO are subjects to trends like any other system. Micro-transactions sound great, but they are heavily reliant upon pushing people into buying every little item they need to play the game. And then when everyone jumps on board with that, someone comes along with this "radically new" idea of selling subscriptions. And then the trend changes.

    Subscription systems have an advantage in that they player is paying for the game even if they are not playing it. Plus people will continue to maintain their subscriptions even when they don't play the game for months on end. it provides a stead stream of income that is not dependent on actual activity. The real key is making sure your subscription price is enough to generate a profit. Then again, making sure you set pricing accordingly to generate a profit is the key of ANY system.

    The whole point is: never say never.

  20. #60
    Community Member Ykt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by badbob117 View Post
    Make money by selling us wicked quests and raids with tons of new bad guys hording their awesome loot. That is all we want!
    Sorry but i'd rather spend my time playing hide n seek with my White Panther Creature Companion wearing a Top Hat Cosmetic Helmet!

    That's what RPGs and DnD are all about.

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