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Thread: Damaged Economy

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    Who cares what loot you have? People will still run Von, Shroud, and FoT. It is not like people were running any other raids in the first place.

    If you or someone else is only playing this game to have the best loot, you would have quit along time ago.

    Like some people here, I think Turbine is getting what they deserve. How many times have you wasted time in a dungeon and some GM told you they could not help you and then they went back to drinking their Yahoo? How many times has Turbine bait and switched things? How many times has Turbine nerfed xp in quest or ingredient drops or done countless other things that have discouraged players? How many times have you been in a quest and not able to complete because a monster was stuck in the wall or just did not spawn?

    Turbine has never been in a rush to fix bugs that hurt the player, but they call out the military if someone gets something free. Just desserts. Maybe now they will pay attention to QA and be more careful and actually test content before it comes live.
    Really? You feel justified that Turbine is "getting what they deserved" and that this doesn't hurt anyone? Most likely you are one of the cheaters that is trying to justify their actions. If this doesn't hurt anyone, than it certainly won't hurt anyone if Turbine deletes the ill gotten gains.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by offinthewoods View Post
    I have been playing DDO for 8 years on and off. Once I learned that the latest exploit was creating an influx of false items into the game, I took all my items off the AH and ASAH and logged in periodically (thinking a rollback was the only reasonable action). I waited patiently and several days passed. A warning was posted on login. Several more days passed. Finally, a fix was promoted, and the banning began with no rollback.

    I have spent the last several days looking at both the AH and ASAH only to see the duped items continue to appear. Now their prices are rising. I spent years, literally, accumulating character wealth in pp, scales, essences and more recently Astral Shards (basically real money). This vast accumulation of wealth has suddenly become devalued, but my true frustration lies in that fact that people continue to be able to profit from that last bug.

    To put it in real world terms, people have used 3D printers to create warehouses full of Lamborghini's and Maserati's. To confuse the law, they have traded and mailed and dispersed these goods to their know aliases thereby obfuscating the trail. They are now selling these openly for what amounts to real world cash (Astral Shards).

    Since there was no rollback, these items which can be easily warehoused will continue to appear, offsetting the hard work that I, like many others in a similar boat, have labored on.

    Nimsie of Sarlona
    Your premise is flawed.

    Duped items appeared on AH and ASAH. People bought them.

    There was no special 'only my alt toon' option on either AH.

    You see while I am sure some people laundered items I am also sure that there is a trail there such as identical IP addresses, trades with their main account (for items to dupe in the first place), or a matching CC on file to their real account if they tried buying stuff with ASAH to dupe in the first place.

    I am also equally sure that there are plenty of other people who bought items for a good deal and are now selling them for a profit who did not dupe nor enter into some sort of scheme with someone who was.

    Assuming that items appearing now are only being put up by those who duped is just wrong (I am sure there are some which Turbine missed or who they have not gotten to yet, but with rising prices it certainly seems like this is sell off of the legit purchases during the exploit with the major stores that were made by dupers mostly being drained out of the economy already (due to banned accounts).
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by offinthewoods View Post
    I have been playing DDO for 8 years on and off. Once I learned that the latest exploit was creating an influx of false items into the game, I took all my items off the AH and ASAH and logged in periodically (thinking a rollback was the only reasonable action). I waited patiently and several days passed. A warning was posted on login. Several more days passed. Finally, a fix was promoted, and the banning began with no rollback.

    I have spent the last several days looking at both the AH and ASAH only to see the duped items continue to appear. Now their prices are rising. I spent years, literally, accumulating character wealth in pp, scales, essences and more recently Astral Shards (basically real money). This vast accumulation of wealth has suddenly become devalued, but my true frustration lies in that fact that people continue to be able to profit from that last bug.

    To put it in real world terms, people have used 3D printers to create warehouses full of Lamborghini's and Maserati's. To confuse the law, they have traded and mailed and dispersed these goods to their know aliases thereby obfuscating the trail. They are now selling these openly for what amounts to real world cash (Astral Shards).

    Since there was no rollback, these items which can be easily warehoused will continue to appear, offsetting the hard work that I, like many others in a similar boat, have labored on.

    Nimsie of Sarlona
    You made a couple of critical errors in judgement and in your metaphor.

    1. You invested in digital goods thinking their was some inherent value that couldn't be destroyed through simple duplication.
    2. You trusted in Turbine's army to keep your value store stable.
    3. You have no real enforceable rights of ownership of digital goods essentially leased to you by Turbine.

    Real world goods like a Lamborghini or Maserati (or an oil painting, which I happen to deal in), are by definition exceedingly difficult to duplicate, and realtively easy to verify provenance. Digital goods in an MMO have exactly zero of those qualities. That isn't to say fakes can't be made, but they require a level of sophistication that all but the most dedicated fakers can achieve. 3D printing that is accessible to the rubes is a long way from even remotely replicating high end real world goods on a scale that would even remotely damage the value of something like a luxury car. Creating digital fakes, and we could argue they're not really fakes because the good itself is physically the equivalent of an original regardless of it story of origin, is trivial enough that only an economic naif would confuse them with a real value storing good.

    Your "store of value" was as ephemeral as a rainbow. Next time you want to invest in something, rather than just play a game, buy a piece of art, and not digital art. You could've bought original pieces from an unmarked Banksy stall in an NYC park one day this last week for a pittance. Reselling one piece would've paid for your DDO habit until Turbine shut it's doors and probably a decent condo to boot.

    Next time don't invest in Tulips.

  4. #24
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystera View Post
    Really? You feel justified that Turbine is "getting what they deserved" and that this doesn't hurt anyone? Most likely you are one of the cheaters that is trying to justify their actions. If this doesn't hurt anyone, than it certainly won't hurt anyone if Turbine deletes the ill gotten gains.
    Sorry, not here. I have all that I need without cheating. The only way that this hurts me is if every Paladin that posts here were to quit the game. This would be less revenue for Turbine and it could lead to shutting the doors.

    In all actuality it hurts me very little. I solo a lot and if I do need a piece of loot, I go get it. If Turbine wants to delete the ill-gotten wages, be my guest delete everything. This thing has already turned into a PR nightmare and I do not think there is any positive that can come of it for Turbine.

    If the cheaters do not “get what they deserve” will you quit playing or paying? Until you are ready to make a stand then it is just words.
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  5. #25
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    pretty sure sarlona was most affected by this duping sploit (as witnessed by the apparent origin of it on sarlona)

    On argo the economy hasn't seemed too badly hurt, but I don't really use the AH/ASAH a ton so can't definitely comment on it.

    TBH U19 and the supreme power of easy to get loot gen items hurt the economy in game a lot more than any exploit could........
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    What I think is OP is anyone who uses implemented game mechanics, standard game features, or their own skill to be more effective in quests then I am - so I then find the time to post complaints about their use of implemented game mechanics, standard game features, or their own skill thus making me OP on the forums.
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimmo View Post
    Nimsie is alright in my book. Have run with him numerous times. Is he being self righteous? hardly. His is a legitimate complaint against a company who own value system has taught the playerbase one thing - Exploit early and exploit often. It is pretty damn sad actually.
    Yeah, Nimsie's alright and his complaint his valid. But all he's going to get for his trouble is silence from Turbine and mockery from the peanut gallery.

    Unfortunately the bottom line is that all possessions are fleeting, whether virtual or real, but the virtual ones much more so. And it's not worth looking at anything in a game as being a result of hard work, even if you believe it was, because the track record around here shows nothing can really be relied upon to maintain its value or worth. Have to just play for fun, because one day the ride will always come to an end.

    This is why I always recommend to people that they not spend hours of time "grinding" items, and just play for fun. If it's fun, and the items are incidental, it bothers you a lot less when either they, or you, go away.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by offinthewoods View Post
    ...Now their prices are rising. I spent years, literally, accumulating character wealth in pp, scales, essences and more recently Astral Shards...
    And what will all of this mean for your Paladin's 401k??

    Quote Originally Posted by offinthewoods View Post
    To put it in real world terms, people have used 3D printers to create warehouses full of Lamborghini's and Maserati's. To confuse the law, they have traded and mailed and dispersed these goods to their know aliases thereby obfuscating the trail. They are now selling these openly for what amounts to real world cash (Astral Shards).
    I agree and well done on the analogy. There are far too many bad analogies that get put into these forums. This makes sense and is well stated. I don't like to see duped stuff getting sold either.

  8. #28
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    Listen: Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for an economy.

  9. #29
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    This post was not a call to action for a rollback. Let's be honest, that time has past.

    This post is my attempt to express my deep and continuing frustration on the current situation and the ongoing profiteering of the duping issue. Whether the person was the one who actually duped the item, an alternate account used to bank the goods, their friend, or someone who got a great deal, the simple fact is this matter is still ongoing, and there are items that should not be in the game right now.

    If Turbine wanted to address the issue as they continue the investigation,
    1) They could make the most common items that were duplicated BtA
    2) They could make the most common items that were duplicated not be able to posted on the AH or ASAH

    I deeply appreciate the support of those of you who echo my sentiments on this issue.

    Nimsie of Sarlona

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by offinthewoods View Post
    I have been playing DDO for 8 years on and off. Once I learned that the latest exploit was creating an influx of false items into the game, I took all my items off the AH and ASAH and logged in periodically (thinking a rollback was the only reasonable action). I waited patiently and several days passed. A warning was posted on login. Several more days passed. Finally, a fix was promoted, and the banning began with no rollback.

    I have spent the last several days looking at both the AH and ASAH only to see the duped items continue to appear. Now their prices are rising. I spent years, literally, accumulating character wealth in pp, scales, essences and more recently Astral Shards (basically real money). This vast accumulation of wealth has suddenly become devalued, but my true frustration lies in that fact that people continue to be able to profit from that last bug.

    To put it in real world terms, people have used 3D printers to create warehouses full of Lamborghini's and Maserati's. To confuse the law, they have traded and mailed and dispersed these goods to their know aliases thereby obfuscating the trail. They are now selling these openly for what amounts to real world cash (Astral Shards).

    Since there was no rollback, these items which can be easily warehoused will continue to appear, offsetting the hard work that I, like many others in a similar boat, have labored on.

    Nimsie of Sarlona
    You have learned the lesson we all need to eventually learn that playing an MMO to acquire stuff is a pointless waste of time that always ends in disappointment. Hopefully you will not fall for it in the future. Eventually, if enough of us learn this lesson, games that have an item-based end game will start to fail and we will stop seeing game after game based around this pointless hamster wheel. Items always lose their value eventually and all the time you spent earning them is thus always wasted.
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  11. #31
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    No to rollbacks some of the guilty are being punished and we will here much gnashing of teeth when they come back to their lighter inventories and while I think their punishments are much lighter then they should be and some people will be getting away without punishment when they shouldn't, it would be much worse to do a roll back and punish the majority of honest players some of which only have limited time to play and to loose what progress they have made would be highly unfair.


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  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by offinthewoods View Post
    This post was not a call to action for a rollback. Let's be honest, that time has past.

    This post is my attempt to express my deep and continuing frustration on the current situation and the ongoing profiteering of the duping issue. Whether the person was the one who actually duped the item, an alternate account used to bank the goods, their friend, or someone who got a great deal, the simple fact is this matter is still ongoing, and there are items that should not be in the game right now.

    If Turbine wanted to address the issue as they continue the investigation,
    1) They could make the most common items that were duplicated BtA
    2) They could make the most common items that were duplicated not be able to posted on the AH or ASAH

    I deeply appreciate the support of those of you who echo my sentiments on this issue.

    Nimsie of Sarlona

    Even better make the items BTC and unvendorable or deleteable lets fill up the inventories and banks of the dheaters


    Beware the Sleepeater

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystera View Post
    Self centered because he spent years earning his stuff legitimately and now cheaters have done the same in a number of hours by using some exploit? So by your logic I could exploit a bug to make every raid item in the game for me and my guildies, while you continue to raid for the next 3 years to get the same, and you would be fine with that? Epic logic fail.
    Go ahead and do that exploit I couldn't care less about what you have. I'll farm it for myself eventually and enjoy running those raids at the same time.
    Quote Originally Posted by offinthewoods View Post
    1) They could make the most common items that were duplicated BtA
    2) They could make the most common items that were duplicated not be able to posted on the AH or ASAH
    Yes because that wouldn't cause mass outrage from those that didn't exploit that they can no long trade scales etc. Your cure is worse than the disease. I don't chop off my arm when I get a splinter in my finger.

  14. #34
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    The Op has my sympathy, but in the end, he must still have more plat than he knows what to do with, and shards too. He'll survive quite easily.
    Meanwhile, there is a load more plat/shards released from players who sold duped stuff which will enter the "economy" to buy his stuff. -In a month's time he will never notice.

    What is actually the point of this outrage?

    If you were rich before, trust me, you will still be very, very rich.

    Moaning on here will achieve little other than generating criticism/useless sympathy, isn't going to actually do anything.

    Get over it, move on.
    sorry.
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  15. #35
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    Technically, the economy hasn't been damaged at all.

    No economy can be damaged by an influx of goods and that was exactly what happened.

    Items were duped and put on the auction house en masse. What was the result?

    If you were hoarding platinum:
    Your buying power increased. The amount of money needed to purchase the ingredients for a GS weapon dropped dramatically from ~8 million plat to ~2 million plat.
    That's a crazy good investment for anyone who was holding plat. Plat is MORE valuable as a result. If measured as a fraction of greensteel, your platinum has appreciated 400% in two weeks.

    If you were trying to acquire greensteel gear or Epic Red Dragon Armor for your toon:
    The barrier to entry for a Min II GS or Epic Red Dragon Armor has dropped dramatically. You basically got it for 1/3 the work of the older players.

    In fact, the only people who were hurt by this were those who were speculating on the price of scales. If you decided to buy scales as a storage of value to resell at a later date, you got screwed. But lets be realistic, neither LDS or FRDS are endgame anymore and nor really usable as barter. Many of us converted large portions our net worth into astral shards to diversify our holdings. Regardless, the market will recover in a very short time. Wait a month and price levels will be right back where they were.

    Luckily, the dupers weren't actually smart enough to dupe the things that actually mattered.

    Still the weakest member and dumbest of Omnipresence.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by offinthewoods View Post
    To put it in real world terms, people have used 3D printers to create warehouses full of Lamborghini's and Maserati's.
    I don't agree that's equivalent at all to the in-game situation. But:

    People who work minimum-wage jobs can now afford a nice car?
    Most of the world thinks: Great, I can get a nice car!
    Snobby self-righteous elitist thinks: That's so horrible, I won't be the only one driving a nice car anymore!

    More real wealth means the world is wealthier.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Infiltraitor View Post
    Luckily, the dupers weren't actually smart enough to dupe the things that actually mattered.
    I think you will find that Dupers will have duped any and every item that went into a auto-gather container.
    Augments (hello true blood, draconic soul gems)
    Augment Removers (store item)
    Hirelings both plat based and gold deal (store item)
    Cookies
    Scales and Relics
    Shroud Ingrediants (do cleansers/decosntructors stack? if so they were duped)
    Challenge Ingrediants
    Commendations
    Crafting Essences
    Motes winter/night
    spectral dragon hand in bits
    etc.

    If you assume that other people are as least as intelligent as you rather than less intellignet then you will probably do much better in life and in game.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dendrix View Post
    I think you will find that Dupers will have duped any and every item that went into a auto-gather container.
    Augments (hello true blood, draconic soul gems)
    Augment Removers (store item)
    Hirelings both plat based and gold deal (store item)
    Cookies
    Scales and Relics
    Shroud Ingrediants (do cleansers/decosntructors stack? if so they were duped)
    Challenge Ingrediants
    Commendations
    Crafting Essences
    Motes winter/night
    spectral dragon hand in bits
    etc.

    If you assume that other people are as least as intelligent as you rather than less intellignet then you will probably do much better in life and in game.

    Hmmmm.

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  19. #39
    Community Member mmitch5's Avatar
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    Default Cheat

    Like many among you I hate cheating but once said we
    Have to keep our feet on the ground
    Some weeks ago we had globe of true imperial blood
    On sale at 3000 astral shard on the AH maybe 2500 if you
    Had luck..
    Now we can buy them for 120 as and of course nobody
    Want to buy them anymore.. So this exploit changed the
    Price of some items.
    i could take many other exemple like blue black white
    Red dragon scales,draconic soul gem etc..
    It is clear that turbine has to punish but i think they
    Just should put some items bound to account and remove
    Simply the ability to sell things on AH for some users
    That cheat.
    Is it so much complicated ?
    I do not think so
    In general i think they need to check more the ASAH and for exemple some

    Idiot people selling items in the EE version for 65778 as
    Perfectly knowing that it is not worth it.
    I was not really enjoyed about the ASAH when it came
    But i am more and more convinced that it was bad idea
    Especially bringing more greed from players
    Here only to try to grab the more astral shard they can
    Selling major elixir for 40k ?
    Selling EE blue dragon helmet 1500 as ?
    Is the good price?
    Answer is NO


    Quote Originally Posted by Infiltraitor View Post
    Technically, the economy hasn't been damaged at all.

    No economy can be damaged by an influx of goods and that was exactly what happened.

    Items were duped and put on the auction house en masse. What was the result?

    If you were hoarding platinum:
    Your buying power increased. The amount of money needed to purchase the ingredients for a GS weapon dropped dramatically from ~8 million plat to ~2 million plat.
    That's a crazy good investment for anyone who was holding plat. Plat is MORE valuable as a result. If measured as a fraction of greensteel, your platinum has appreciated 400% in two weeks.

    If you were trying to acquire greensteel gear or Epic Red Dragon Armor for your toon:
    The barrier to entry for a Min II GS or Epic Red Dragon Armor has dropped dramatically. You basically got it for 1/3 the work of the older players.

    In fact, the only people who were hurt by this were those who were speculating on the price of scales. If you decided to buy scales as a storage of value to resell at a later date, you got screwed. But lets be realistic, neither LDS or FRDS are endgame anymore and nor really usable as barter. Many of us converted large portions our net worth into astral shards to diversify our holdings. Regardless, the market will recover in a very short time. Wait a month and price levels will be right back where they were.

    Luckily, the dupers weren't actually smart enough to dupe the things that actually mattered.
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  20. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by offinthewoods View Post
    I have been playing DDO for 8 years on and off. Once I learned that the latest exploit was creating an influx of false items into the game, I took all my items off the AH and ASAH and logged in periodically (thinking a rollback was the only reasonable action). I waited patiently and several days passed. A warning was posted on login. Several more days passed. Finally, a fix was promoted, and the banning began with no rollback.

    I have spent the last several days looking at both the AH and ASAH only to see the duped items continue to appear. Now their prices are rising. I spent years, literally, accumulating character wealth in pp, scales, essences and more recently Astral Shards (basically real money). This vast accumulation of wealth has suddenly become devalued, but my true frustration lies in that fact that people continue to be able to profit from that last bug.

    To put it in real world terms, people have used 3D printers to create warehouses full of Lamborghini's and Maserati's. To confuse the law, they have traded and mailed and dispersed these goods to their know aliases thereby obfuscating the trail. They are now selling these openly for what amounts to real world cash (Astral Shards).

    Since there was no rollback, these items which can be easily warehoused will continue to appear, offsetting the hard work that I, like many others in a similar boat, have labored on.

    Nimsie of Sarlona
    I agree that this damages the economy and if you depend on selling stuff it'll be bad for a bit. However this does not offset your hard work. What you do is entirely separate from whatever anyone does. Your economy might suffer and the value of items you sell might go down, but your hard work as you put it will always be appropriately rewarded.

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