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  1. #41
    Hero nibel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by era42 View Post
    Those numbers are outdated, the trap difficulties were changed recently.
    ftfy

    I noticed a ton of inconsistency in elite trap data on wiki after U19. I think it is safe to assume that a lot of them changed and we need a new batch of trap data.
    Main: Amossa d'Cannith, Sarlona, casually trying Completionist [<o>]

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  2. #42
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    It's safe to assume the following:

    If you are doing traps, your starting int is 12 or higher
    You put full ranks into disable device, or accept you will suck at them.

    Now the op is proclaiming, repeatedly and rather *reference to creator's intelligence removed*, it was "Not him!" doing the traps... which leads us to ask why he is posting at all about this when he "could do them 75% of the time". Seems rather foolish.

    The simple answer to your question....

    "THE OTHER GUY LIED!"

    The answer to your other question, concerning difficulty of traps and the like, is they must cover both intelligent and unintelligent players.

    Let's look at trapping skills a moment:
    Base Ranks - if you're doing traps, the consensus is that everyone has max ranks at disable device. If you do not, it's a choice you are making that you do not require them.
    Intelligence - You can start between 6 and 20, put level ups in, tomes etc. This number will range from 5 (cursed item-wearing half-orc) to 71 (drow pm completionist with ship buffs and a yugo pot) or possibly higher. So there's a difference from -3 to +30 on the skill here.
    Greater Heroism - it's safe to assume access to this is common enough now that traps can be designed with it in mind +4 for everyone!
    Misc - walk on the sun, inspire competence... +2 modifier that is not always there but still in the minds of designers.
    Items - +20 is becoming more commonplace, so trap designers will think about this when designing their player killers.

    Now for a level 12 quest on elite we could expect the following: (Level 14 difficulty)
    Base 17 ranks, but let's suggest a level 12 might try it so 15 ranks.
    Intelligence: +6 items are in play now so int scores of 20 to 36 are expected. That's +5 to +13
    GH: Yup, +4
    Tools: Add +7 to the mix for tools, which drop in the chests at this level.

    So we're currently looking at players having 15 ranks, plus 5 from int, plus 6 with gh and 7 from tools... for a total of 33.
    Now, if we're designing traps we want them to have a 50/50 shot of disarming them surely? So the DC needs to begin at a 43 for average traps... but this place is meant to suck, so we'll look to add 5 to the difficulty... putting traps of DC48 in here.

    But wait... if you have an int of 36, plus you've got +3 enhancement to trapping skills in a tree... and a +3 skill tome.
    Base 17, 7 tools, 13 from int, 3 tome, 3 enhancements, 6 from an int skills greensteel item, 4 gh and a 15 item... well, you've suddenly gained +68 to your skills.

    So again, the designers cannot create traps to defeat everyone... but they have no need to make them doable on elite by people too lazy to even realise 17 ranks and a 15 item with +5 tools and +4gh is a bonus of 41, meaning DCs of 45 and lower wont blow up in your face.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by rimble View Post
    Is that good? Feels low to me. If you're in there at 14 (max level for Bravery):

    17 Ranks
    7 Tools (EDIT: Thanks Parvan)
    5 Int (20 Int seems modest to me)
    13 Item (I think that's the right ML)
    4 Greater heroism
    --
    46

    That's just to start, pretty much the bare minimum amount any trapper of that level should have when attempting Elite at-level, no fancy additions like Skill Focus, Enhancements, or Past Lives.

    32 and 34 sound REALLY low to me. I don't think it's fair to half-ass something then complain that it doesn't work well enough in top-tier (for your level) content.

    You are forgetting good luck items (voice at a bare minimum). I know you said "no enhancements", but I never rolled a rogue that didn't have at least some investment in skill boost. Enhancements are so cheap to respec that it's hard to justify not speccing for some enhancements to make up for your lack of gear while levelling up.

    While the underlying issue (due partly to BB) is pretty generic and doesn't have to do with being a rogue in particular, being more of a "wow elite LFM for a quest I want - I'm in!" thing while being utterly clueless as to what the quest is about, that problem is especially poignant in the case of a rogue, because seasoned TR'ing zergers usually welcome at least one trapper who is expected to disable traps for the extra xp from ingenuous debilitation while keeping himself alive - DPS / assasinate being a bonus, not a must have.

    It's not like you need to gimp your rogue (or rogue / artificer splash if you're an exploiter type of build) to no fail trap handling anyway.

  4. #44
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dmnqwk View Post
    It's safe to assume the following:

    If you are doing traps, your starting int is 12 or higher
    You put full ranks into disable device, or accept you will suck at them.

    Now the op is proclaiming, repeatedly and rather *reference to creator's intelligence removed*, it was "Not him!" doing the traps... which leads us to ask why he is posting at all about this when he "could do them 75% of the time". Seems rather foolish.

    The simple answer to your question....

    "THE OTHER GUY LIED!"
    The odds of the other guy lying is very low.

    They were one level above me (13), banking another level (14), with a toon that runs the Assassin tree (high INT), and the mentioned that they had ranks into Mechanic even before we entered the quest. So, spitballing the numbers, it is more than reasonable to assume they had a modestly higher DD score than me. Plus, I run with this individual fairly consistently, and I’m pretty secure in the knowledge that they don’t lie about this stuff. Plus, there was genuine frustration about not just failing the disable attempt, but blowing every box, consistently, on the first time. And it was the first time, every time throughout the entire quest. We moved as a group and no one went off on their own. So I watched while the traps were blowing up.

    Not that it is out of the question, only that the probability of them lying is pretty low.

    However, the odds that this situation occurred because trap DCs had recently been adjusted is actually better based on stuff I have been observing about specific quests that are run in this game. It came to my attention just a little bit before U19 that epic Lords of Dust was repeatedly farmed for token shards. Post U19? POOF! The CRs of the mobs goes up dramatically. No rhyme or reason for the change, just an immediate uptick in mob CRs.

    And there is little denying that Wiz King is one of those quests that is heavily farmed for XP.

    As to why I was able to do 1 of the 4 traps I worked on? Again, it is highly probably, given the number of traps in the quest and the randomness of their placement, there were a few traps that were not elevated, and it was sheer dumb luck that I was the guy who got them.

  5. #45
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forzah View Post
    If it has DC 57 then it has almost the same DC as what it used to have on epic before U14... that can't be right...
    No!

    What wasn't right is the fact that Epic DCs were so stupidly low back then!


    Epic Trap DCs weren't significantly different from Heroic Elite Trap DCs!


    This is what the Devs are trying to fix by going thru every trap from Lvl 1-28 and streamlining the DCs.

    So Uber Trap in Cabal has gone down.
    Uber Trap in Durk's has gone down
    Secret Door in Heyton's Rest is now findable by a Lvl 1 on Elite {Not a hope a month or two ago!}.

    BUT

    Lvl 13 and up Trap DCs will be higher than previously except for those cases where they had silly high DCs in the first place {Cabal!}.


    Now there's a heck of a lot of traps in this game and it's highly likely the Devs didn't get them all in the first pass BUT again that Trap in Wiz King the Op's talking about considering the Disable Scores he mentioned really didn't have to be stupid high for a Crit Fail on an 18!

    It is more than Possible that the Op's friend had taken his Disable goggles/gloves whathaveya off for one reason or another and had forgotten to put them back on {Not realising this when he was so shocked at failing on an 18!}.

    Or possibly he {like many} had multiple disable items and had swapped in a lesser item by mistake.


    56-57 is NOT too high for a Lvl 14 trap - It is high enough to force players to keep their Disable Scores up but not in the same league as the DC 73 that Cabal used to have and that people COULD DO at Level given work.

  6. #46
    Founder Grimborn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    No!

    What wasn't right is the fact that Epic DCs were so stupidly low back then!


    Epic Trap DCs weren't significantly different from Heroic Elite Trap DCs!


    This is what the Devs are trying to fix by going thru every trap from Lvl 1-28 and streamlining the DCs.

    So Uber Trap in Cabal has gone down.
    Uber Trap in Durk's has gone down
    Secret Door in Heyton's Rest is now findable by a Lvl 1 on Elite {Not a hope a month or two ago!}.

    BUT

    Lvl 13 and up Trap DCs will be higher than previously except for those cases where they had silly high DCs in the first place {Cabal!}.


    Now there's a heck of a lot of traps in this game and it's highly likely the Devs didn't get them all in the first pass BUT again that Trap in Wiz King the Op's talking about considering the Disable Scores he mentioned really didn't have to be stupid high for a Crit Fail on an 18!

    It is more than Possible that the Op's friend had taken his Disable goggles/gloves whathaveya off for one reason or another and had forgotten to put them back on {Not realising this when he was so shocked at failing on an 18!}.

    Or possibly he {like many} had multiple disable items and had swapped in a lesser item by mistake.


    56-57 is NOT too high for a Lvl 14 trap - It is high enough to force players to keep their Disable Scores up but not in the same league as the DC 73 that Cabal used to have and that people COULD DO at Level given work.
    This is more likely the case. And "Being an assassin" is no excuse for low skill in disable device. Quite the opposite, since you should have a high intelligence to begin with if you want to be an effective assassin. And the excuse of "only Elite LFM's is the problem", then start your own. Not having a competent trapper in the Wiz King just means you zerg past the traps. Crying about your friends incompetence in successfully doing the traps will not change the fact that ANY trapper need to be prepared for this quest. whether that means making sure you have all your correct items and tools ready to do the job.
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  7. #47
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimborn View Post
    This is more likely the case. And "Being an assassin" is no excuse for low skill in disable device. Quite the opposite, since you should have a high intelligence to begin with if you want to be an effective assassin. And the excuse of "only Elite LFM's is the problem", then start your own. Not having a competent trapper in the Wiz King just means you zerg past the traps. Crying about your friends incompetence in successfully doing the traps will not change the fact that ANY trapper need to be prepared for this quest. whether that means making sure you have all your correct items and tools ready to do the job.
    “No excuse?” And “whining?”

    Ok, mind getting off your high-horse for a minute?

    I guess maybe this is an unfamiliar concept to you, but not everyone who plays DDO memorizes the trap DCs of every frickin’ quest, and makes sure they run with a group where everything is 100% successful 100% of the time, and where everyone in the group knows the ins-and-outs of the quest in question better than they know their kids’ names.

    It wasn’t my friend’s “incompetence,” it was there mere fact that with all things being equal, they had slightly better trap skills, but I had a better percentage of traps disabled in this quest. And why they were so difficult compared to other quests. It is really that frickin’ simple. It was a glaring oddity.

    Now maybe you’re projecting here, or maybe you just like being a jerk – I really dunno, and don’t care. But if you are going to go down that road I might suggest that a) you actually try and read and understand the posts, and b) at least be unique and / or witty in the process (which, by the way, you aren’t).

    It’s bad enough that I’ve had to remind some people that the person doing the traps wasn’t me…twice. Now I got guys like you – which is sorta expected because you specific stereotypical behavior is so utterly predictable - inserting your deep, inner personal failings into this topic.

    You know , maybe I’m looking at this all wrong. I should probably thank you for this post.

    Some people run quests with friends for fun, to socialize, and other such things that you obviously think are a low priority in your life. It is great that you take DDO to be such a serious endeavor, being 100% prepared for any encounter, on any occasion like the true epic (virtual) adventurer you’ve made yourself into. I can just imagine what a (cough) stress-free (gag) care-free existence you must have with this sort of attitude.

    I dunno, some of us make sure we get Assassinate before we start going whole-hog on uber trapping skills. Maybe you have a different, much more enlightened view of things; a shining path that you only bestow upon the anointed and enlightened.

    (Some of us don’t really care.)

    But I will strive – nay, I WILL achieve your level of uber-trapmonkey-ish-ness that can only come about from this secret knowledge that you’ve imparted upon us!

    Thank you! A thousand times, thank you!

  8. #48
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    “No excuse?” And “whining?”
    You obviously have never heard someone say I can't do traps I'm dps on an assassin? It was pretty common a year or two ago, and a complete absurdity. You sound like you are making the same excuse.

    It’s bad enough that I’ve had to remind some people that the person doing the traps wasn’t me…twice. Now I got guys like you – which is sorta expected because you specific stereotypical behavior is so utterly predictable - inserting your deep, inner personal failings into this topic.
    I have you the benefit of the doubt at first with it till I started playing my arti and discovered I had a roll of +30 with dd at level four. That means the best person in the quest only had 4 pts higher of a dd than me at level 4. LEVEL 4.

    Let me list the gear I had too incase you think I was using something odd.

    +1 int helm
    +5 search goggles
    +5 dd gloves

    So in otherwords poor gear because I don't bother getting any twink gear for running the harbor.

  9. #49
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    You obviously have never heard someone say I can't do traps I'm dps on an assassin? It was pretty common a year or two ago, and a complete absurdity.
    I’ve never heard this before.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    You sound like you are making the same excuse.
    How is it that I am making the excuses when I’m telling everyone outright that I am not the one doing the traps?

    You know, if you run with people you consider your friends (or friendly aquaintences), and one of them decides to run up and do every trap, you let them. Nobody is there because if you don’t get that extra XP, their lives are ruined.

    Just like when you tell them, “I don’t think I’m ready for this on elite because I haven’t upgraded my gear,” they say, “no big deal.”

    Then again, I didn’t think I had to supply a list of minutes of a friendly group run to this forum as a prerequisite to posting something on an oddity that I discovered, for the same of a bunch of self-strokers.

    Not including you in aforementioned group, I might add. Just sorta framing the response.

  10. #50
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    I’ve never heard this before.



    How is it that I am making the excuses when I’m telling everyone outright that I am not the one doing the traps?
    Because it sounds like you are equating poor dps and poor trap skills to being an assassin here.

    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Ok - and not to be a jerk about this (though I keep having to repeat it) - but why does every response here have to do with my DD score? I mean if you want to criticize, there is more than enough room to go after my **** melee, as I am an assassin, and virtually everything in that quest is undead.
    That said you said that your dd score was only 2pts off of the other guys that means you two are essentially the same as far as dd, and those numbers are poor. Yeah you weren't the one blowing the traps but if that guy wasn't lying you two have equally bad dd.

    Like I said you said he had a 34, I had a 30 at level 4 on the above listed toon with the above listed gear, that's why people are saying that they definately should have blown up in your faces the dd scores you listed were too low. Not to mention that some people might not be believing it's "your friend", because how many times has the joke been made of of "yeah you see I have a friend and he has this problem."

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by era42 View Post
    And making new players solo the normal difficulties is silly, as pretty much every heroic lfm is elite. Solo or get the **** out, new player will pick the second option and find another game.
    Especially as it seems that trap gear prices on the AH are way above what a f2p first life is likely to afford at that level. (I'm still trying to, though - with varying luck.)

    I mean, you'll want a +Int item, +Search, +Disable, and then everything again after 2 levels - selling all your loot doesn't net you that much in that time, and deconstructing everything doesn't get you enough to craft your own either.


    And is there a Greater Heroism clicky that can be farmed from somewhere or something, or do I have to make sure I have an arcane caster along or be one myself (or human with the racial enhancement)?

    ... not likely to have sufficient number of skill boosts either to use those on all traps in the harder quests either, actually.


    (As for the thread topic - don't have that pack yet.)
    No longer completely f2p as of November 2014. Father of 3 more DDO players so far (I do have more children than that).

  12. #52
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mna View Post
    Especially as it seems that trap gear prices on the AH are way above what a f2p first life is likely to afford at that level. (I'm still trying to, though - with varying luck.)

    I mean, you'll want a +Int item, +Search, +Disable, and then everything again after 2 levels - selling all your loot doesn't net you that much in that time, and deconstructing everything doesn't get you enough to craft your own either.


    And is there a Greater Heroism clicky that can be farmed from somewhere or something, or do I have to make sure I have an arcane caster along or be one myself (or human with the racial enhancement)?

    ... not likely to have sufficient number of skill boosts either to use those on all traps in the harder quests either, actually.


    (As for the thread topic - don't have that pack yet.)
    Rogues and arti's get umd as a class skill so at level 14 thats 17 ranks of umd add in 8 cha and maybe a +4 cha item as a new player you have an 18 to maybe 20 umd skill depending on if you have any other gear such as a big top of golden cartouche. That means you could have a 50% ish chance to scroll a gh which since you can do that out of combat while buffing means that even a poor first life can get a gh at that point.

    As far as the gear goes, yeah it's rougher, but you can drink int potions from the market place till you get a 5 or 6 int item, but for dd and search at this point you have to start looking at named gear imo. The loot change in u19 has made these items drop far far less and that is a big problem for new trappers.

  13. #53
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Because it sounds like you are equating poor dps and poor trap skills to being an assassin here.
    That’s what you read into it. I never made such a comparison.

    It’s not like I walked into a PUG and claimed I could do the traps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    That said you said that your dd score was only 2pts off of the other guys that means you two are essentially the same as far as dd, and those numbers are poor. Yeah you weren't the one blowing the traps but if that guy wasn't lying you two have equally bad dd.

    Like I said you said he had a 34, I had a 30 at level 4 on the above listed toon with the above listed gear, that's why people are saying that they definately should have blown up in your faces the dd scores you listed were too low.
    Which makes the fact that I was actually disabling them (with one exception) the thing that stood out like a sore thumb. Hence the reason why I was totally puzzled. Hence the post.

    Couple that with Chains of Flame – with the same gear, same level toon, and same level of quest on my part (lvl 12 quest on elite), no problem with traps (with the exception of Spot, which was a known issue on my part anyways). None of it made any sense whatsoever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Not to mention that some people might not be believing it's "your friend", because how many times has the joke been made of of "yeah you see I have a friend and he has this problem."
    Well I guess that is a problem on the part of the reader now, isn’t it? The problem with “assume” is that it makes an ass of “u” and “me”…


    …OK, maybe not “me” so much.

  14. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by mna View Post
    And is there a Greater Heroism clicky that can be farmed from somewhere or something, or do I have to make sure I have an arcane caster along or be one myself (or human with the racial enhancement)?
    Yep, Planar Gird from Xorian Cipher.

  15. #55
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mna View Post
    Especially as it seems that trap gear prices on the AH are way above what a f2p first life is likely to afford at that level. (I'm still trying to, though - with varying luck.)

    I mean, you'll want a +Int item, +Search, +Disable, and then everything again after 2 levels - selling all your loot doesn't net you that much in that time, and deconstructing everything doesn't get you enough to craft your own either.


    And is there a Greater Heroism clicky that can be farmed from somewhere or something, or do I have to make sure I have an arcane caster along or be one myself (or human with the racial enhancement)?

    ... not likely to have sufficient number of skill boosts either to use those on all traps in the harder quests either, actually.


    (As for the thread topic - don't have that pack yet.)
    Search, Disable and Open items should be easy enough to find. I also on many characters use potions of Fox Cunning for my INT item until pretty late in the game.

    Also, GH comes on scrolls - you may be cash-strapped, but I generally carry a messy of those if normal heroism isn't working (and once you get to WizKing your UMD on those should be decent enough on any trapping toon).

    If you're soloing, spend some time getting to know the hires. I know people love the clerics / FVS (and honestly, I'd recruit Larafay into my guild any day - she rocks) ... but the bards have handy abilities and there's even a fighter w/ d door ... good stuff to know.
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  16. #56
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    Trap removal is a very demanding sub-profession on elite. I could find and disarm all of the Wiz-King traps no problem on my last life (in fact I didn't blow a box my entire trapper career) but I made quite a few sacrifices towards being a better trapper and aggressively pursued the gear and bonuses that you need to attain a strong level of proficiency. The issue with trapping is that just putting points in the skills and doing other basic competency things is less than half the battle - elite-level viability comes through gear and extra bonus accumulation. It's not very newbie friendly at all. I wouldn't recommend rogue as a first life for anyone, at least not if they plan to act as a trapper for elite quests. Hard's a lot more forgiving, though.

  17. #57
    Hero nibel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mna View Post
    And is there a Greater Heroism clicky that can be farmed from somewhere or something, or do I have to make sure I have an arcane caster along or be one myself (or human with the racial enhancement)?
    Planar Gird is the lowest level GH clickie in game. There is also the Draconic Necklace on Amrath (But is ML 18).

    You can also trade 10 Amulet of the Lost Empire (REALLY common collectable) with Verisgante on House J for a 10 minutes GH potion. The potion is unbound and ML 1 to drink. You can farm them on another character and pass out to lowbies in trap-heavy quests.
    Main: Amossa d'Cannith, Sarlona, casually trying Completionist [<o>]

    Almost-never-played-alts: Arquera - Chapolin - Fabber - Herweg - Mecanico - Tenma

    I want DDO to be a better game. Those are my personal suggestions on: Ammunition, Archmage, Combat Stances, Deities, Dispel Magic, Epic Destiny Map, Fast Healing, Favor, Favored Enemy, Half-elf Enhancements, Monk Stances, Past Life, Potency, Potions, Ranger Spells, Summons, Tiered Loot.

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