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  1. #1
    Community Member Maelodic's Avatar
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    Default Is Shadar-Kai worth it?

    I'm about 100 TP away from being able to buy it. I love sneaky mechanics and sneak attack, but the zippiness that I lose isn't really all that awesome to me. I keep coming back to my 7d6 sneak attack halfling ninja because he moves so quickly.

    I'm thinking shadow jaunt would make up for that. I don't really care about the chain a whole lot, but the quick movement through mobs every 30 seconds I feel would really improve my gameplay, in the way I imagine it anyway. I've never seen one ingame, nor are there any videos of this happening. Does anybody have any experience with this as a sneaky solo-er?

    I know Shadar-Kai are humans- do they have the exact same model? I'm not really fond of the model, but if Shadow Jaunt is good enough I could probably survive.
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  3. #3
    Community Member burningwind's Avatar
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    short answer no, long answer nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooo XD

    p.s. only special about this race is their chain, which deal poor damage end game.. and their ability to go invisible for 10 second every 30 second after fully trait.. totally not worth it imo.. though if you really like their look or how their ability look.. then it might be wroth it depending on how much you want it

  4. #4
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    depends on what their past life will be when it's announced.

  5. #5
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Depends on whteher youlike them or not. They have relaitvely good sneak attributes, and the chain, but are not spectacular at anything. I like them though.
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  6. #6
    Community Member Maelodic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    Depends on whteher youlike them or not. They have relaitvely good sneak attributes, and the chain, but are not spectacular at anything. I like them though.
    What do you like/dislike about them?

    I'm a soloist who focuses on sneaking through and picking off mobs one by one- the tool I'm looking at is Shadow Jaunt, which (in theory) makes it so you can move through groups and escape relatively easily. The chain would be cool during heroic levels and looks amazing for them, but afterwards doesn't look so great.

    They cannot be bought on Lamannia, or I'd try them out first.
    Last edited by Maelodic; 10-12-2013 at 08:38 PM.
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  7. #7
    Community Member Satyriasys's Avatar
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    I love the shadow jaunt ability! The chain is fun too in heroics and they look cool.
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  8. #8
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    The problem with Shadar seems obvious to me, unlike the other good Iconics (Bladeforged and PDK) their core "geewiz feature"(s) that draw you to the class are disappointing. Jaunt is crippled with an unfun 30 second cooldown. Jaunt is supposed to make the race play all quick and darty but just ends up being frustratingly slow between uses. chain attack is counter to what the class has the most synergy for, the chain attack being a mass aggro draw, and very much counter to the idea of stealthy.

    It has less sneak attack than Halfling
    It has no innate assassinate bonus or synergy
    It only has 1 ability increase.
    It has no other innate enhancement that is a "oh wow I have to build something using that".

    Bladeforged have reconstruct SLA
    PDK's have CHA to hit and dmg.

    As you can see both of them have a central ability that makes you sit up and take notice of the race and think "okay what crazy build can I do with that".

    Shadar does for a brief moment, but then you quickly see where they fall short. When Iconics were detailed I mainly wanted them for Shadar so I could put a Step/leap ability into any build (just like Bladeforged put Recon into any build) but 30 seconds is about 3 times too slow to be any fun for me. Easy fix though:

    Lower cooldown to 12, reduced to 8 seconds at level 16 and consider some sort of expensive way to drop it down to around 5 closer to Leap/Abundant/wind dance (they are 3 seconds)
    gid rid of the "phase" part, and make "phase" a separate ability that activates briefly on tumble OR block, say 6 seconds every 20 or 6 every 30, Make "phase" just a stacking non-corporeal (stacks with any other source) so it's not overpowered but make it more useful more often even if that means making it weaker.
    Remove "empowered jaunt" it's stupid and no one cares, replace with empowered phase, 5% chance on being hit for the Shadar to Phase for 6 seconds not more than once every minute, seperate cooldown from the active block/tumble phase.
    Finally make the main chain attack not root you and be a quick "whip" animation that does a mass trip + deception effect that has no threat (like hey what just tripped me, oh a sneaky shadar, uh oh I better deal with this melee thats going to kill me, forget about that Shadar for now).
    Then as a bone for a more melee focused Shadar leave the tier 4 whirling chain attack there (it's useful for a tanky Shadar to gather aggro) and give it some sort of dmg scaling. or way to increase it's dmg so it's useful at higher levels (I suggest: make it use the +W of whatever weapon you're using, and give it THF effects proc chance that uses the weapons in your hand(s).
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  9. #9
    Community Member Phaeton_Seraph's Avatar
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    If you want to try a first-life assassin build that isn't so squishy you'll abandon it as a bank toon until you get enough XP from dice rolls to TR it without playing it again, I'll say "yes, it's worth it."

    Gloom Stalker is great. It's like having all your weapons proc like a Rad II weapon, just without light damage.

    Shadow Jaunt is awesome. In the future, I plan on TRing my pure artie into the Shadar-Kai race just for Shadow Jaunt for his 3rd artie life.

    Nothing is Hidden makes searching out traps under combat conditions a breeze, when it works.

    The chain is still useful to me at level 24 (admittedly, not as useful as it was, but when it stops being useful, I'll reset that tree and spread out my enhancements). I have no idea why anyone would complain about the chain. There are no ultimate weapons, just things that work better than others for different situations.

    Thing is, starting out at lvl 15, you'll have to go back and grind a lot of favor, and that chain expedites that.
    And that favor grinding gives a newbie assassin a lot practice at the business of assassination, and bluffing &c. So it's a great way to get your feet wet.


    These are my opinions, and I have a lvl 24 Shadar-Kai that I enjoy. Remember there's a substantive difference between the opinions of people who play one and like it, and those who don't like it, and those who don't play one at all yet share their opinions. amirite?

  10. #10
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maelodic View Post
    What do you like/dislike about them?

    I'm a soloist who focuses on sneaking through and picking off mobs one by one- the tool I'm looking at is Shadow Jaunt, which (in theory) makes it so you can move through groups and escape relatively easily. The chain would be cool during heroic levels and looks amazing for them, but afterwards doesn't look so great.

    They cannot be bought on Lamannia, or I'd try them out first.
    I like the speed i can go through stuff. Either by stealth, or just swinging the chain.
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  11. #11
    Community Member Maelodic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaeton_Seraph View Post
    If you want to try a first-life assassin build that isn't so squishy you'll abandon it as a bank toon until you get enough XP from dice rolls to TR it without playing it again, I'll say "yes, it's worth it."

    Gloom Stalker is great. It's like having all your weapons proc like a Rad II weapon, just without light damage.

    Shadow Jaunt is awesome. In the future, I plan on TRing my pure artie into the Shadar-Kai race just for Shadow Jaunt for his 3rd artie life.

    Nothing is Hidden makes searching out traps under combat conditions a breeze, when it works.

    The chain is still useful to me at level 24 (admittedly, not as useful as it was, but when it stops being useful, I'll reset that tree and spread out my enhancements). I have no idea why anyone would complain about the chain. There are no ultimate weapons, just things that work better than others for different situations.

    Thing is, starting out at lvl 15, you'll have to go back and grind a lot of favor, and that chain expedites that.
    And that favor grinding gives a newbie assassin a lot practice at the business of assassination, and bluffing &c. So it's a great way to get your feet wet.


    These are my opinions, and I have a lvl 24 Shadar-Kai that I enjoy. Remember there's a substantive difference between the opinions of people who play one and like it, and those who don't like it, and those who don't play one at all yet share their opinions. amirite?
    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    I like the speed i can go through stuff. Either by stealth, or just swinging the chain.
    Thank you both. I was going to roll an assassin and I'm glad I picked it up. It gives me a lot of what I liked from Monk and everything I didn't think I could live without in DWS (Exposing Strike)
    The auto bluff with an attack from stealth is extremely powerful. I really am liking this so far.
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  12. #12
    Community Member Archetype's Avatar
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  13. #13
    Community Member Havok.cry's Avatar
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    Shadar-kai, by there enhancements are not meant to not have aggro. They are meant to have the attention, and still kill stuff, then leave when they want to (okay, every thirty seconds).

    Contrary to popular belief you can sneak attack while you have aggro, if you prepare for it. Having improved deception and deception items is important for that. Getting invisibility guard will help against mobs that dont see through it. Radiance guard and radiance weapons also help by blinding them. Sleetstorm/glitterdust/incindiary cloud are great things to fight in as your enemy will be blinded and take SA damage. It is rather easy to build for it. Shadar-Kai even get an enhancement for it in their fourth tier: Gloom Stalker.

    I have had great fun as an intimidating rogue on my shadar-kai. Note however that this is all heroic levels, I don't do much at epic levels and tend to TR, so I don't know how well it would work there, but that is how the shadar-kai enhancements are set up to work.
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  14. #14
    Community Member Raoull's Avatar
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    What's odd, is it seems like they are basically Human, much like the PDK. But PDK also get the free feat and skills of a human.... but Shandar-Kai get nothing for free. The enhancements has some OK stuff in it, but I can't think of another race that doesn't get some sort of free initial immunities, feat, or other abilities.
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  15. #15
    Community Member Eistander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok.cry View Post
    Shadar-kai, by there enhancements are not meant to not have aggro. They are meant to have the attention, and still kill stuff, then leave when they want to (okay, every thirty seconds).

    Contrary to popular belief you can sneak attack while you have aggro, if you prepare for it. Having improved deception and deception items is important for that. Getting invisibility guard will help against mobs that dont see through it. Radiance guard and radiance weapons also help by blinding them. Sleetstorm/glitterdust/incindiary cloud are great things to fight in as your enemy will be blinded and take SA damage. It is rather easy to build for it. Shadar-Kai even get an enhancement for it in their fourth tier: Gloom Stalker.

    I have had great fun as an intimidating rogue on my shadar-kai. Note however that this is all heroic levels, I don't do much at epic levels and tend to TR, so I don't know how well it would work there, but that is how the shadar-kai enhancements are set up to work.
    While I completely agree with the tips given for setting sneak attack opportunities, I would also disagree on them being agro magnets.. with Gloom Stalker, it requires you to be in a sneak position prior to your attack, so even if you Bluff the target to attempt to proc the Gloom Stalker (either hits with deception or blinds the target), the cooldown post activation of Sneak would be better used for an assassinate.

    For a newer player, sticking as a pure rogue Shadar-Kai with a heavy emphasis in racial/assassination trees will have a rather strong character to work with.. let alone the ring they have at level 15 which allows them to basically ditch the epic Midnight Greetings for more options in-hand for that +2 assassination bonus (other stuff not-withstanding). For a power gamer/min-maxer, the tried and true options will win out, but as someone who has a multi-tr rogue, the Shadar-Kai feels more like the rogue I wanted to play due to the extra options surrounding the rogueliness.. the chain though is a bit mediocre, but for what it is, its fun.
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  16. #16
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    The only Shadar Kai I played was on Lam, and I loved it. It was also the first time I actually liked the starting package of a late level character. I just had to remember to keep Risk in my off hand. lol
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  17. #17
    Community Member Maelodic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eistander View Post
    While I completely agree with the tips given for setting sneak attack opportunities, I would also disagree on them being agro magnets.. with Gloom Stalker, it requires you to be in a sneak position prior to your attack, so even if you Bluff the target to attempt to proc the Gloom Stalker (either hits with deception or blinds the target), the cooldown post activation of Sneak would be better used for an assassinate.

    For a newer player, sticking as a pure rogue Shadar-Kai with a heavy emphasis in racial/assassination trees will have a rather strong character to work with.. let alone the ring they have at level 15 which allows them to basically ditch the epic Midnight Greetings for more options in-hand for that +2 assassination bonus (other stuff not-withstanding). For a power gamer/min-maxer, the tried and true options will win out, but as someone who has a multi-tr rogue, the Shadar-Kai feels more like the rogue I wanted to play due to the extra options surrounding the rogueliness.. the chain though is a bit mediocre, but for what it is, its fun.
    What makes them very powerful is that gloom stalker procs regardless of agro. Even if somebody is agro'd on you, an assassinate attempt will always, every single time, proc. If you're sneaking, regardless of agro, you're sneak attacking. It's also an auto bluff if you're sneaking- so I find myself popping in and out of sneak constantly regardless of whether or not I'm in a group, which is something I enjoy very much and is also something that's a very new playstyle compared to traditional Rogue stuff (other than popping in and out for assassinate.)

    Jaunt is ridiculous. You can zoom through quests. At level 15, I did Diplomatic Impunity on elite- I did not kill a single monster until the final room, and was able to avoid every single battle because of jaunt. Not even my perma-invis Ninja Monk can do that. I did something similar with Frame Work- used a ballista to get into the main room, quickly killed the minotaur leader, and then just zoomed out of there with Jaunt. A lot of the gianthold quests are very similar- and even when you do get caught, Jaunt acts as a powerful disengage. Not once did the mobs follow me after I had used it.

    I'm losing out on 3-4 assassinate DCs, but following Hassan's Assassin build (for the most part) really works well with this.
    Their guile line is 1 AP each, the final being 1d6 frost while sneak attacking, which also works on 100% fort mobs, so you get almost as much/as much as halfling with a bit more utility.

    The chain is too powerful in heroic levels, but I'm assuming that will be balanced when it sucks in epics. Once I ditch it, there's some more goodies in the Shadar-Kai line that I'll probably pick up to hit Gloom Stalker. This character is very powerful, and fits my style perfectly. I kept trying to find an auto-bluffing zippy monkish hybrid, and it just so happens that this character comes stock with it. Doesn't hurt that they get a free cosmetic outfit you can wear all the time to look uniform and pretty swell (even though when I get my black dragonscale, I'll be using that because it looks fricken awesome.)

    EDIT: About the kit you start with, it doesn't include a INT+6 item, so I ended up switching the necklace out because every other stat is spread so thin. Gloves I switched with Backstabber's Gaunts, and belt can be switched out with a DEX+6 of Something Else. I ended up switching out the daggers in favor of Nightforge Stiletto because of the awesome crit profile and higher base damage/damage bypass.

    About the chain- It hits everything for full damage. Where I had a problem with the undead because I don't have my undead beater yet, the chain alleviates.
    Last edited by Maelodic; 10-13-2013 at 08:13 PM.
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  18. #18
    Community Member zDragonz's Avatar
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    The concept is cool, but there is one thing that is stupid looking.

    Waving a chain around and that is all that is done does not look Heroic or Epic one bit! Nothing positive to say about a character who just waves a chain around like a toy. It just looks silly.

  19. #19
    Community Member Havok.cry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zDragonz View Post
    The concept is cool, but there is one thing that is stupid looking.

    Waving a chain around and that is all that is done does not look Heroic or Epic one bit! Nothing positive to say about a character who just waves a chain around like a toy. It just looks silly.
    Looked much cooler when ghostrider does it.
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  20. #20
    Community Member Rykka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zDragonz View Post
    The concept is cool, but there is one thing that is stupid looking.

    Waving a chain around and that is all that is done does not look Heroic or Epic one bit! Nothing positive to say about a character who just waves a chain around like a toy. It just looks silly.
    Saw a Shad doing the chain thing the other day. I should have stopped and asked him where he got the cool yoyo.

    Anyone remember and old computer game the had cool Shads in it? Was it Torment? Maybe BG... IDK

    They're fleshed out in 4E pretty well fluff wise.I love the back story. but that chain is lacking the gravitas I'd want to play one.

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