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  1. #1
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    Default Exploite (bug) or Game Feature?

    As all are very well aware of by now there was recently what I like to call a "Temporary Game Feature" in DDO that allowed for the mass duplication of items in bags. Now this brings to light some very interesting questions regarding this.

    Back-story: This "Temporary Game Feature" was present on the lamannia server during the beta testing and was reported by numerous people. This is the reason I am referring to it as a "Temporary Game Feature" as it was knowingly included in the live launch from the beta.


    The questions are as follows:
    1.If something is present during beta and the devs know about it and it is carried over to the live version (Live version of this update launched on August 19th so it was around for about 53 days) without being fixed or a counter measure being taken does this not make it a legitimate game feature? I mean the ability to fix it was absurdly easy (just disable auto-gather on bags). Legitimate as in it was present on the beta, they knew it was a problem but yet decided to include it in the final build of the live launch.

    2.I keep seeing stuff relating to 'punishing' people who used this "Temporary Game Feature" after the notice went up on the launcher, does that mean that people that used it before won't be punished? If so how would that be fair to everyone else?

  2. #2
    Community Member toaftoaf's Avatar
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    people went craZy with this one, but ya most of us are SICK of the bugs that get reported on lama going live.. EVERY fricken time

  3. #3
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    do you seriously think that the exploit was a temporary game feature?

    first off, I dont know where you heard ti but I have seen no mention of it on lam at all and I check the forums rather often. there may've been threads but have since been deleted or something but still obviously that would've been a clear indicator that it wasnt an intended feature.

    second of all, An exploit is to make use of something such as a bug or glitch, which an item creating duplicates of other items is obviously a bug unless its specifically mentions the ability to do so (which a bag doesnt), to one’s own advantage. even an unintelligent person could (or should be able to) tell that this wasnt an intended 'game feature' of a bag but rather an unintended break of code which broke an item. which people then used to bypass the intended way to get items they duplicated thus its an exploit.

    lastly it wasnt around for no 2 months, otherwise just about everyone would've used it unintentionally atleast once, which isnt the case. Im not sure quite when it popped up but I would've been effected and had duplicate items if it with within the month which I dont have any items that were duplicated it came either in the 2nd (sept 23) or 3rd (oct 2nd) patch. so only 8-20 days, which first mention of odd activity was within the week (last week I seen the post about sarlona's AH) makes me believe it was the 3rd patch that broke it and thus its only been around for a week.

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    I always find it amazing that gamers can be confused about things that are common sense even to kindergarteners.

    General rule of thumb: if you have to ask if what you're doing is cheating or not, there's a good chance that it is. There aren't many games with "features" that allow the arbitrary mass-duplication of items.

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    Community Member Soulfurnace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    I always find it amazing that gamers can be confused about things that are common sense even to kindergarteners.

    General rule of thumb: if you have to ask if what you're doing is cheating or not, there's a good chance that it is. There aren't many games with "features" that allow the arbitrary mass-duplication of items.
    Are kobolds cheating?

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    Kudos to this thread!

    On the post point...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    I always find it amazing that gamers can be confused about things that are common sense even to kindergarteners.

    General rule of thumb: if you have to ask if what you're doing is cheating or not, there's a good chance that it is. There aren't many games with "features" that allow the arbitrary mass-duplication of items.
    righteous, a word pondering

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulfurnace View Post
    Are kobolds cheating?
    yes, they are hence why they are being sent to disciplinary school (per release note for u20
    Kobolds have been updated to look and behave better!
    )

  9. #9
    Community Member Phaeton_Seraph's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NinjaWeredragon View Post
    As all are very well aware of by now there was recently what I like to call a "Temporary Game Feature" in DDO that allowed for the mass duplication of items in bags. Now this brings to light some very interesting questions regarding this.

    Back-story: This "Temporary Game Feature" was present on the lamannia server during the beta testing and was reported by numerous people. This is the reason I am referring to it as a "Temporary Game Feature" as it was knowingly included in the live launch from the beta.


    The questions are as follows:
    1.If something is present during beta and the devs know about it and it is carried over to the live version (Live version of this update launched on August 19th so it was around for about 53 days) without being fixed or a counter measure being taken does this not make it a legitimate game feature? I mean the ability to fix it was absurdly easy (just disable auto-gather on bags). Legitimate as in it was present on the beta, they knew it was a problem but yet decided to include it in the final build of the live launch.

    2.I keep seeing stuff relating to 'punishing' people who used this "Temporary Game Feature" after the notice went up on the launcher, does that mean that people that used it before won't be punished? If so how would that be fair to everyone else?
    I made a post in another thread that got deleted, it was in response to a bad car analogy and all the ethical bickering.


    From a legal perspective (much more real world than ethics), we can use the analogies of criminal culpability and strict liability.

    Using the exploit was against the code of conduct, so it was wrong. Same as a violation of a criminal code.



    However, Turbine knowingly released a product they knew was bugged. From the standpoint of strict liability, they were obligated to take every reasonable precaution to ensure such things were not possible (just like a car insurance company won't want to pay you if your car was stolen when you left it unlocked with the keys in the ignition).

    They didn't take the very reasonable precaution of not releasing bugged software to the Live servers.

    Ultimately all responsibility lies with Turbine for its negligence and bannings and such will only be token and intended as a deterrent (as it's simply impossible for the to nail everyone without a roll back). The only thing this will do is depopulate the server and cause many customer to not return to this game.
    It will hurt them more than us, but it will tick us off even more.

    And many people feel that they are already justifiably annoyed with Turbine's nickel-and-dime cash grabs. How much more can Turbine afford to alienate the customer?
    Last edited by Phaeton_Seraph; 10-11-2013 at 10:24 PM.

  10. #10
    Community Member arkonas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaeton_Seraph View Post
    I made a post in another thread that got deleted, it was in response to a bad car analogy and all the ethical bickering.


    From a legal perspective (much more real world than ethics), we can use the analogies of criminal culpability and strict liability.

    Using the exploit was against the code of conduct, so it was wrong. Same as a violation of a criminal code.



    However, Turbine knowingly released a product they knew was bugged. From the standpoint of strict liability, they were obligated to take every reasonable precaution to ensure such things were not possible (just like a car insurance company won't want to pay you if your car was stolen when you left it unlocked with the keys in the ignition).

    They didn't take the very reasonable precaution of not releasing bugged software to the Live servers.

    Ultimately all responsibility lies with Turbine for its negligence and bannings and such will only be token and intended as a deterrent (as it's simply impossible for the to nail everyone without a roll back). The only thing this will do is depopulate the server and cause many customer to not return to this game.
    It will hurt them more than us, but it will tick us off even more.

    And many people feel that they are already justifiably annoyed with Turbine's nickel-and-dime cash grabs. How much more can Turbine afford to alienate the customer?

    dude you really are off your rocker. turbine is a business. business make money. With games evolving so do business strategy. Games can't keep the same stuff for years and years. they have to adapt or die. look at magic the gathering. the game is still alive and kicking. its been out since 1993. sure they reprint stuff and make bad choices sometimes. hell there are times where they made a card so powerful they just had to start banning it or restricting it in tournament play. casual well that is another thing.

    I'm not defending turbine at all but you just wont shut up about this nonsense. don't like how they operate just leave. all you do is scream p2win and blah blah blah. doesn't that just get old? games have bugs deal with it. sometimes things pop up and they can't fix it before it goes live oh noes. darn what will i do. I'm just shocked you even play anymore with all the complaining you do. this goes for a lot of people who do it just as much. why are you even here if you hate on this game so much.

  11. #11
    Community Member XiaNYdE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaeton_Seraph View Post
    However, Turbine knowingly released a product they knew was bugged. From the standpoint of strict liability, they were obligated to take every reasonable precaution to ensure such things were not possible (just like a car insurance company won't want to pay you if your car was stolen when you left it unlocked with the keys in the ignition).

    They didn't take the very reasonable precaution of not releasing bugged software to the Live servers.
    This very much reminds me of a run-in i had with Microsoft over the RROD, my XBox 360 red-ringed after a little over 5yrs and when i contacted M$ their stance was nothing we can do, both your normal warranty and the extended we applied for RROD have expired. To me that was not good enough as Phaeton_Seraph said above they knowingly released and sold the product flawed. So me being me lol, i contacted the ACCC (Australian Competition and Consumer Commission) voiced my concerns and they were in agreement that M$ were responsible for it, gave me a claim number etc... long story short, i had a new 360 from M$ on my doorstep within 14 days As pointed out to M$ you cannot knowingly release a flawed product and then hold the customer accountable when it goes wrong. Well not here in Oz anyways and consumer laws have recently changed to better reflect that.
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  12. #12
    Community Member Phaeton_Seraph's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkonas View Post
    dude you really are off your rocker. turbine is a business. business make money. With games evolving so do business strategy. Games can't keep the same stuff for years and years. they have to adapt or die. look at magic the gathering. the game is still alive and kicking. its been out since 1993. sure they reprint stuff and make bad choices sometimes. hell there are times where they made a card so powerful they just had to start banning it or restricting it in tournament play. casual well that is another thing.

    I'm not defending turbine at all but you just wont shut up about this nonsense. don't like how they operate just leave. all you do is scream p2win and blah blah blah. doesn't that just get old? games have bugs deal with it. sometimes things pop up and they can't fix it before it goes live oh noes. darn what will i do. I'm just shocked you even play anymore with all the complaining you do. this goes for a lot of people who do it just as much. why are you even here if you hate on this game so much.
    They could have delayed sending it to live. It's that simple. Would you like me to add some exclamation marks so you feel good? You shock a little too easily, have you read these forums?

    I love the game, I hate having the value of what I've been subscribing to eroded. A customer wants to feel they are getting value for their money, or at least good service.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by NinjaWeredragon View Post
    If something is present during beta and the devs know about it and it is carried over to the live version (...)
    I check Lama forums daily when Lama is online. There were no notice at all about the duplication bug there. I can believe that someone found them on Lama, and stayed quiet about it just to exploit on live. But there was no "dev recognizition" on bug before it went wild on Sarlona.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaeton_Seraph View Post
    They didn't take the very reasonable precaution of not releasing bugged software to the Live servers.
    Let's say, you find out your Arkhan City is bugged. You stop playing it, download a patch, and keep playing. Other than the time lost where you didn't play, the bug was not dangerous to the game itself.

    The same can't be said of any game-breaking bug in any MMO. An MMO is somewhat different from any other game because it involves a community that changes the way we play the game itself.

    IMO, I have zero simpathy for any cheater punishment. They knew they were exploiting, and now you lie on the bed you made. Next time, just don't abuse any "good bugs".
    Main: Amossa d'Cannith, Sarlona, casually trying Completionist [<o>]

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  14. #14
    Community Member Phaeton_Seraph's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    I check Lama forums daily when Lama is online. There were no notice at all about the duplication bug there. I can believe that someone found them on Lama, and stayed quiet about it just to exploit on live. But there was no "dev recognizition" on bug before it went wild on Sarlona.



    Let's say, you find out your Arkhan City is bugged. You stop playing it, download a patch, and keep playing. Other than the time lost where you didn't play, the bug was not dangerous to the game itself.

    The same can't be said of any game-breaking bug in any MMO. An MMO is somewhat different from any other game because it involves a community that changes the way we play the game itself.

    IMO, I have zero simpathy for any cheater punishment. They knew they were exploiting, and now you lie on the bed you made. Next time, just don't abuse any "good bugs".
    Consider the farther reaching ramifications of this exploit:

    • For a long time to come, many people who duped are going to be having an effect on the gameworld economy.
    • An unknown number of people who do get temp-banned will not return.
    • In the short term, LFMs and guilds will suffer due to a shortage of players (in a game where there are already frequent doomy postings about a dearth of LFMs).


    All of these results that will hurt you, as a player, could have been prevented had Turbine not been negligent and fixed the bug or simply not released the bugged update. The bug that they were fully aware of.

    If a man knowingly leaves bundles of cash on the back seat of his car, and the door wide open, it's a fact that the people who steal that cash are wrong.
    However, we have names for the kind of people who do what the car owner did. And they're not complimentary, are they?

    All I'm saying is that with all the whinging about the people exploiting, someone else done wrong here. And for that person to be the distributor of "justice," well, it's a farce.

  15. #15
    Community Member djl's Avatar
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    People just love to try to rationalize cheating with wildly off-center analogies.

    Face it: you cheated because you thought it was FUN. You thought it was fun to see all those stacks of items in your inventory, to suddenly have something which you could not have obtained even with 10 years of playing the game. You thought it was fun to finally feel like you were getting paypack for all the game-breaking negative bugs Turbine has introduced over time, half of which are still unfixed.

    There is no "Well THEY weren't clear about the rules." You knew very well that mass-producing thousands of Globes of True Blood was cheating. There are two "mortal sins" in an MMORPG, things that completely undermine the purpose of the game: item duplication and exp modification. You knew it was wrong, and you did it anyway because you thought it was fun.


    Yes, it is ultimately Turbine's fault it got so out of hand because not only did they not shut down the servers over the Weekend when knowledge of the bug was first spreading, but they also waited until Tuesday to do so. By then, many many people had done it. But, just because your buddy decides to be a crook doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. It might be exhilarating to "break the law," but it is still wrong no matter how it rewarding it feels, and you are subject to the consequences of your actions.
    Last edited by djl; 10-12-2013 at 02:19 AM.

  16. #16
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XiaNYdE View Post
    This very much reminds me of a run-in i had with Microsoft over the RROD, my XBox 360 red-ringed after a little over 5yrs and when i contacted M$ their stance was nothing we can do, both your normal warranty and the extended we applied for RROD have expired. To me that was not good enough as Phaeton_Seraph said above they knowingly released and sold the product flawed. So me being me lol, i contacted the ACCC (Australian Competition and Consumer Commission) voiced my concerns and they were in agreement that M$ were responsible for it, gave me a claim number etc... long story short, i had a new 360 from M$ on my doorstep within 14 days As pointed out to M$ you cannot knowingly release a flawed product and then hold the customer accountable when it goes wrong. Well not here in Oz anyways and consumer laws have recently changed to better reflect that.
    Glad that worked for you.

  17. #17
    Community Member Phaeton_Seraph's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by djl View Post
    People just love to try to rationalize cheating with wildly off-center analogies.

    Face it: you cheated because you thought it was FUN. You thought it was fun to see all those stacks of items in your inventory, to suddenly have something which you could not have obtained even with 10 years of playing the game. You thought it was fun to finally feel like you were getting paypack for all the game-breaking negative bugs Turbine has introduced over time, half of which are still unfixed.

    There is no "Well THEY weren't clear about the rules." You knew very well that mass-producing thousands of Globes of True Blood was cheating. There are two "mortal sins" in an MMORPG, things that completely undermine the purpose of the game: item duplication and exp modification. You knew it was wrong, and you did it anyway because you thought it was fun.

    Yes, it is ultimately Turbine's fault it got so out of hand because not only did they not shut down the servers over the Weekend when knowledge of the bug was first spreading, but they also waited until Tuesday to do so. By then, many many people had done it. But, just because your buddy decides to be a crook doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. It might be exhilarating to "break the law," but it is still wrong no matter how it rewarding it feels, and you are subject to the consequences of your actions.
    Certainly, anyone who's read the rules of conduct should know it's against the rules. I'm not rationalising cheating. I've clearly said that duping was wrong, go back and read my posts. I am in no way trying to justify their actions, I really don't care, either way.

    What I am saying is that this whole thing was easily preventable, and they chose to do nothing. That was ALSO wrong. I'm not saying more or less wrong, just that it too was wrong.

    Here's the thing, the sheer numbers of people I saw loitering around the banks in G-Land was staggering. I didn't even realise what was going on until I read about it here.
    But with a lot of disgruntled customers... Hindsight tells us it should have been obvious what would happen when the bug became common knowledge.


    Furthermore, I think a portion of the ridiculous auction postings was an intentional protest. Posting like that on the ASAH was the opposite of Fight Club.
    Last edited by Phaeton_Seraph; 10-12-2013 at 02:31 AM.

  18. #18
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    Angry

    Where does the game stop and where does pen and paper start?

    If there is no mention on the forums about the bug and we know that posts get deleted, who is to say the way it was dealt with was by hiding the bug from the public rather than fixing it. The fact that there is no mention on a forum where a lot of posts get removed does not mean that no one reported the bug. It just means that there is no record of someone reporting it. If you say someone kept silent about it hoping it will go into the live update, is that really the people you should be trusting to nut out the problems in the game?

    There are plenty of "good bugs" which never get fixed, and frankly, I like it that way. It is a GAME!. To say that certain bugs are considered bugs when specific people complain , is obvious. When you log a ticket, and you aren't a VIP , turbine does not even have the decency to look into it. You get the stock standard response. Even if we spend more money on the game than VIPs. When we report a bug , nothing is done about it, even years later. Not a peep., NOTHING. Turbine completely ignores us when we report an issue , but when their "friends" raise it as a problem, suddenly all hell breaks loose. This exploit was an obvious bug, but who's mistake was it? Why are the gamer being banned for something the company did wrong. You are punishing your customers which is not a good bushiness. You are ignoring us when we do raise issues and punishing us for exploiting them.

    I am not saying duplication is something they should include in the game. I am just saying that even though it was reported from the Lamania server, it was not fixed. Many of our players have known about the bug even before update 19 went live. Many had the decency not to talk about it publicly till the last week. They DID report it.

    Those who didn't duplicate, are completely silent to the game breaking bugs where weapons stats are not working properly and breaks a decent weapon for a long time.

    I think as of today we stop spending money on this game. Free to play for me and my friends. It is the only way to send a message that bugs are bugs. Fix the bugs and don't punish your CUSTOMERS. What other way is there to express our unhappiness when tickets are ignored. Turbine needs to own part of the blame. Don't just blame the customers for something you slipped up on.

    I hear someone was Permabanned from sarlona. Is that really the way this is dealt with? I have heard a few times today "if you don't like it, go play something else". Is that really the kind of message you guys want to send out. Do you really want to be the only ones on the server? Turbine will not keep servers online if there is no one to pay the bills. So , before you feel the need to suggest harse punishment for others, just remember, without us "cheaters" , Turbine will not be able to run these servers.

    I suggest that everyone who has been banned choose one month(November or Feb) this year where we will not pay for turbine points or not renew our subscription. If turbine can punish customers, then customers can express their unhappiness too.

  19. #19
    Community Member Phaeton_Seraph's Avatar
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    Rapture, these forums aren't the only place to find this info. There's this great new invention called Google.
    And there's a set of forums, on another site, where the banned and disgruntled go to speak their minds without Turbine being able to delete their posts.



    Anyway, all the complaining in the forums would have alerted anyone motivated to test their google-fu and find out exactly what the exploit was.

    In fact, the indignantly self-righteous complainers probably caused many more people to discover how to dupe than would ever have done so without their inspiration. Is that irony?

  20. #20
    Community Member Soulfurnace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaeton_Seraph View Post
    Rapture, these forums aren't the only place to find this info. There's this great new invention called Google.
    And there's a set of forums, on another site, where the banned and disgruntled go to speak their minds without Turbine being able to delete their posts.



    Anyway, all the complaining in the forums would have alerted anyone motivated to test their google-fu and find out exactly what the exploit was.

    In fact, the indignantly self-righteous complainers probably caused many more people to discover how to dupe than would ever have done so without their inspiration. Is that irony?
    I'm curious, what are these other forums?

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