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  1. #241
    Community Member Yaga_Nub's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Systern View Post
    Because that allows the classes to still just have one primary stat, being as awesome as they currently are and having decent to good melee capabilities as well.
    The intended design probably is based on people sacrificing their casting stat to be a little MAD and develop a melee stat.


    tl;dr: Same reason why FvS's don't get it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Why should it be considered? The advantage to having this be cha/int to hit and damage is a lot more negligible then all you players put forth espcially with all the options for boosting strength in DDO. Why should every build have the option of having a non traditional stat be its to hit and damage? Quite frankly that is not the way D&D does things. Dexterity is actual more of an exception to this of non traditional stats rule with weapon finesse. Not signed to making this CHA/INT. I was never o.k. with doing so for spellsinger/warchanter or Warpriest so why should eldritch knight be any different.
    I TOTALLY agree with what you are saying except they've already opened up a can of worms with allowing Dex to do damage for a PrE. If you're going to do it with one stat for one PrE do it with them all. IMHO it should have only been a racial enhancement and even that is kind of iffy. Dex to hit sure, it's a part of DnD. Dex for damage OK since there's a lot less to boost DEX than STR. And that's why I'm OK with it for CHA/INT as well.

    However, all that aside, it gets back to what the most number of posts said. Much like the Heart of Wood protest, if it's what the players want, do it as long as it's not game breaking or easily exploitable. I've got no skin in this game because I'll still go STR on my EK but again I say give the people what they want especially when you're a 7 year old MMO that needs to keep each and every player they can get.
    Last edited by Yaga_Nub; 10-22-2013 at 09:35 AM.
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  2. #242
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    DEX to damage is a different beast than INT/CHA to damage. Boosting DEX doesn't improve Wail, FoD, Mass Hold, etc.
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  3. #243
    Founder Hamlin's Avatar
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    I just wanted to say that adding int/cha to attack or damage is extremely powerful and in my opinion is not a great idea. However, if you decide to go that route, please either make it tier 5 or the EK capstone. Something like that should cost something else; either the tier 5s from the other trees or the other capstones.

  4. #244
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeromekwah View Post
    How about, for each core enhancement, you increase your one handed weapon's enhancement bonus by +1, to a maximum of half caster stat modifier. All one handed weapons are treated as implements.

    It's not quite cha/int for attack/dmg but it's there somewhat, and relies on core progression.

    Still think there needs to be some synergy with touch and close ranged spells, because an EK will be on the front lines.
    You are hitting upon a D&D concept touch spells, ray spells which have a to hit roll, etc. which has no real meaning in DDO. EK is a good prestige class in D&D because it gives full base attack bonus and close to full caster level and thirdly unlike many prestige classes in D&D it has very little downside.

    The problem with having EK in DDO is base attack bonus has very little relevance due to the following: it only increases attack speed a little in DDO whereas in D&D a wizard has half the attacks of a fighter due to the base attack difference so in D&D base attack bonus is huge, there are no to hit spells in DDO or at least it is much easier to hit mobs in DDO with spells, there are not really any spells in DDO where base attack is relevant (e.g. in D&D is bigby's grasping hand), there are no higher level feats in DDO which are available at a higher base attack then +11 unlike D&D where there are feats that require a higher level base attack.

    EK is very ill suited for DDO and has very little flavor. I do love the picture in the dungeon master guide of the unarmored character weilding a greatsword whle standing on a flying carpet. EK has nothing in common with that character.
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  5. #245
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    I was wondering whether there might be a place for an enhancement in the Eldritch Knight tree that conveys some kind of bonus to the main hand weapon if an orb is held in the off hand (like a rune arm).

    This could be something straightforward and general such as adding a bonus to attack and damage equal to the orb bonus, or maybe a specific bonus based on the orb (additional light damage for the burning orb, etc). It would offer a useful combat bonus for Eldritch knights when carrying orbs rather than two weapon fighting, two handed fighting or sword and board.

  6. #246
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoondogJazz View Post
    I was wondering whether there might be a place for an enhancement in the Eldritch Knight tree that conveys some kind of bonus to the main hand weapon if an orb is held in the off hand (like a rune arm).

    This could be something straightforward and general such as adding a bonus to attack and damage equal to the orb bonus, or maybe a specific bonus based on the orb (additional light damage for the burning orb, etc). It would offer a useful combat bonus for Eldritch knights when carrying orbs rather than two weapon fighting, two handed fighting or sword and board.
    Something like say "Eldritch Combatant"

    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    EC: When fighting with an orb in your off-hand, you gain 1 temporary spell point and +1 universal spellpower on-hit, 3 temporary SP and USP on crit, and 5 temporary SP and USP on vorpal for X seconds <insert standard language for disappearing stacks here>.

    IEC: Orbs Boni to Saves and Energy Resist no longer requires you to be actively blocking (blocking doubles the effect instead)

    GEC:Any 1-handed weapon gains +1 to Crit range and your touch/ranged touch spells no longer have a level cap.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamlin View Post
    I just wanted to say that adding int/cha to attack or damage is extremely powerful and in my opinion is not a great idea. However, if you decide to go that route, please either make it tier 5 or the EK capstone. Something like that should cost something else; either the tier 5s from the other trees or the other capstones.
    Capstone...really what are we supposed to do for Lvl 1 - 19. Every stat is already covered in some form in this game...all within the first 6 levels...for a reason.

    The poeple complaining about this are using the exact same argumenet that people were using for Dex to damage it shows a lack of understanding. For now all EKs will have to be PDK Sorcs otherwise people will continue as usual maybe picking up a few enhancements from EK but in its current state I doubt we'll see many people actually making a primarily EK build.
    Last edited by Failedlegend; 10-22-2013 at 02:24 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  7. #247
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    I don't think it is quite so grim. Frankly, Wizard's can increase STR and CON easier than they can INT; I personally don't want INT/CHA to damage and think that'd be too much.

    I would expect any pure Sorc 20s to be Savant first, dipping into EK as a secondary. They just don't have the feats to pull it off pure-class, and no point then to spend the AP on T5.

    A pure class of either will be missing GTxF until 21 or 24 - this is going to be a huge limiter.

    By my napkin math though, you could go wizard 20, elf, all dex and fit in most of the goodies of EK + Wraith Form + elf DEX to hit/damage. 2 dex from tensers 2 from EK 2 from elf. I think the AP fits, but not completely sure. There are enough heroic feats, esp. since you can sham Quicken, Extend, Maximize, etc. into the wizzy bonus feats.

    I can't (sadly) fit Lich + EK T5s into a build I like though. Boo.
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  8. #248
    Community Member HatsuharuZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    I'd rather they not limit them to shields...shields have nothing to do with EKs...traditionally EKs (and spellswords) have a stave, an orb or a spell in their off-hand. AT least offer an alternative to shields make anything shild related a multi-selector

    ie.

    Shield Training OR Eldritch Combatant
    Elemental Resistance OR Improved Eldritch Combatant
    Shield Striking OR Greater Eldritch Combatant

    EC: When fighting with an orb in your off-hand, you gain 1 temporary spell point and +1 universal spellpower on-hit, 3 temporary SP and USP on crit, and 5 temporary SP and USP on vorpal for X seconds <insert standard language for disappearing stacks here>.
    IEC: Orbs Boni to Saves and Energy Resist no longer requires you to be actively blocking (blocking doubles the effect instead)
    GEC:Any 1-handed weapon gains +1 to Crit range and your touch/ranged touch spells no longer have a level cap.
    Yes yes, orbs are *traditional*, but there just aren't that many orbs in DDO. I can think of two of them off the top of my head, and the lowest level one is in Gianthold. Furthermore, sorcs and wizards are a d4 class, making the extra DR, AC and PRR from shields more valuable for them in melee combat than anyone else.

    On another note, I have seen more than a few high hp sorcs and wizards, but those were casters who only put points into constitution and their main casting stat. Unless the devs are going to put int/cha to attack and damage like you want, they're going to have to put some points into strength as well.

  9. #249
    Community Member Saravis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feather_of_Sun View Post
    4: We're buffing the core capstone, Eldritch Blade, by adding an additional, more noticable effect to it. While active, in addition to +10% attack damage and +25 Spell Power, it'll also add 3d4 Force damage to your attacks.
    Still not worth it, a buff that only lasts 30 seconds and can only be used every 2 minutes, benefits from splashes are still far superior to this.

  10. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    You are hitting upon a D&D concept touch spells, ray spells which have a to hit roll, etc. which has no real meaning in DDO. EK is a good prestige class in D&D because it gives full base attack bonus and close to full caster level and thirdly unlike many prestige classes in D&D it has very little downside.

    The problem with having EK in DDO is base attack bonus has very little relevance due to the following: it only increases attack speed a little in DDO whereas in D&D a wizard has half the attacks of a fighter due to the base attack difference so in D&D base attack bonus is huge, there are no to hit spells in DDO or at least it is much easier to hit mobs in DDO with spells, there are not really any spells in DDO where base attack is relevant (e.g. in D&D is bigby's grasping hand)
    I was referring to spells with touch (ie very close) range rather than touch/ray spells, although your post did get me thinking, perhaps give a bonus to these spells based on bab? Maybe for each core enhancement beyond the first add +2 max caster levels to such spells, to a max of half bab?

    But I'm coming to a similar conclusion as you - the PrE seems ill suited to DDO. The more I try to think of improvements that fit within the concept of a Mage/fighter type, the more complex and unwieldy the improvements become. And at this stage, it appears the devs are only interested in incremental changes to their original proposal.

  11. #251
    Community Member dlsidhe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    Capstone...really what are we supposed to do for Lvl 1 - 19. Every stat is already covered in some form in this game...all within the first 6 levels...for a reason.

    The poeple complaining about this are using the exact same argumenet that people were using for Dex to damage it shows a lack of understanding. For now all EKs will have to be PDK Sorcs otherwise people will continue as usual maybe picking up a few enhancements from EK but in its current state I doubt we'll see many people actually making a primarily EK build.
    Actually, I was very pro dex-to-damage - my melee bard is built around it as it reduces MADness. Dex affects - for a dex-to-damage build - attack, damage, AC (to a point), and reflex saves (which, usually, are already sky-high). The trade off is having to splash one of three specific classes (and make the needed level/AP investment) or being an elf and making a HUGE AP investment.

    INT/CHA to attack/damage on a wizard or sorcerer is just...no. NO. For one reason - DCs. On a wizard, INT would drive attack, damage, spell DCs, and reflex saves (on most builds). Being able to - outside of EE content - being able to melee, land instakills, AoE damage, etc. would be stupidly OP.

    The reason EK focuses on force spellpower is because those are no-save spells. It provides the option to ignore INT/CHA - I'm currently considering swapping out the bard levels on my melee bard for wizard and having a ranger/rogue/EK which would need only three stats and have a bunch of extra metamagics.
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  12. #252
    Community Member Iriale's Avatar
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    I think that the concept is wrong. EK in pnp is for multiclasses arcane/warrior, as Theurge mystic, and Arcane Trickster, and Arcane Archer.

    Arcanes don’t have enough BAB, or feats, or HD for melee. And they should not have if are pures.

    Please, this prestige should be for multiclass. Then we could obtain good gish builds. A gish that can be decent in melee and with spell damage and abjuration, or bad gish will be. A gish without high level spells and not DC for instant kills but good with low/medium level spells. DDO needs to start creating the first prestiges focused on multiclass. And so one day we can also have a mystical theurge (impossible without multiclass!) Give us a different prestige for pure arcanes in other update, a magical prestige. Let that EK be the first prestige oriented for multiclasses...

    And then, give us Theurge mystic in the future...
    Last edited by Iriale; 10-23-2013 at 07:03 AM.
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  13. #253
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iriale View Post
    I think that the concept is wrong. EK in pnp is for multiclasses arcane/warrior, as Theurge mystic, and Arcane Trickster, and Arcane Archer.

    Arcanes don’t have enough BAB, or feats, or HD for melee. And they should not have if are pures.

    Please, this prestige should be for multiclass. Then we could obtain good gish builds. A gish that can be decent in melee and with spell damage and abjuration, or bad gish will be. A gish without high level spells and not DC for instant kills but good with low/medium level spells. DDO needs to start creating the first prestiges focused on multiclass. And so one day we can also have a mystical theurge (impossible without multiclass!) Give us a different prestige for pure arcanes in other update, a magical prestige. Let that EK be the first prestige oriented for multiclasses...

    And then, give us Theurge mystic in the future...
    I'd be ok with this...it works for any Arcane/Martial Mix...Here's a quick example using Swiftblade

    The Requirements:

    Core 1: Arcane1/Martial1 Character Level 3
    Core 2: Arcane2/Martial2 CL 6
    Core 3: Arcane4/Martial4 CL 9
    Core 4: Arcane5/Martial5 CL 12
    Core 5: Arcane6/Martial6 CL 15
    Core 6: Arcane7/Martial7 CL 18
    Capstone: Arcane8/Martial8 CL 20

    Note: This means a Arcane18/Martial2 would only have access to tier 2

    The "Cores"

    5 Points Spent: Gain Spring Attack
    10 Points Spent: Swiftblade I, 10% Blur Effect, +1 AC, To-Hit & Reflex Save
    15 Points Spent: Haste Lasts 50% Longer
    20 Points Spent: Swiftblade II, 20% Blur Effect, +2 AC, To-Hit & Reflex Save, All Hits deal an extra 1d6 Untyped Damage
    25 Points Spent: Haste Lasts 100% Longer & Cannot be Dispelled
    30 Points Spent: Swiftblade III, 30% Blur Effect, +4 AC, To-Hit & Reflex Save, All Hits deal an extra 2d6 Untyped Damage
    41 Points Spent: Perpetual Celerity - When any Haste effect is on you it lasts until Rest/Death

    The PrE Tree itself would likely have a bunch of movement related things like increased run speed, immunity to knockdown, freedom of movement, balance, jump, tumble,etc.

    Some other Hybrid Prestige Trees could be Sacred Fist (Divine+Monk), Arcane Trickster (Arcane+Rogue), Mystic Theurge (Divine+Arcane), Fist of the Forest (Primal+Monk), Self-forged(Arty+Rogue Mechanic), Dead Pirate (Bard+PDK)
    Last edited by Failedlegend; 10-23-2013 at 11:53 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  14. #254
    Community Member Satyriasys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iriale View Post
    I think that the concept is wrong. EK in pnp is for multiclasses arcane/warrior, as Theurge mystic, and Arcane Trickster, and Arcane Archer.

    Arcanes don’t have enough BAB, or feats, or HD for melee. And they should not have if are pures.

    Please, this prestige should be for multiclass. Then we could obtain good gish builds. A gish that can be decent in melee and with spell damage and abjuration, or bad gish will be. A gish without high level spells and not DC for instant kills but good with low/medium level spells. DDO needs to start creating the first prestiges focused on multiclass. And so one day we can also have a mystical theurge (impossible without multiclass!) Give us a different prestige for pure arcanes in other update, a magical prestige. Let that EK be the first prestige oriented for multiclasses...

    And then, give us Theurge mystic in the future...
    I like your thinking. We cannot even call them prestiges anymore since they have no requirements. They kind of bungled the new enhancement system even though the UI tree is a major improvement.
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  15. #255
    Community Member Wizza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iriale View Post
    I think that the concept is wrong. EK in pnp is for multiclasses arcane/warrior, as Theurge mystic, and Arcane Trickster, and Arcane Archer.

    Arcanes don’t have enough BAB, or feats, or HD for melee. And they should not have if are pures.

    Please, this prestige should be for multiclass. Then we could obtain good gish builds. A gish that can be decent in melee and with spell damage and abjuration, or bad gish will be. A gish without high level spells and not DC for instant kills but good with low/medium level spells. DDO needs to start creating the first prestiges focused on multiclass. And so one day we can also have a mystical theurge (impossible without multiclass!) Give us a different prestige for pure arcanes in other update, a magical prestige. Let that EK be the first prestige oriented for multiclasses...

    And then, give us Theurge mystic in the future...
    This is why two classses CANNOT and SHOULD NOT share the same tree. A pure Wizard will have no trouble fitting all these melees feats + some Arcane ones. Sorcerers? Hell no. There is no way a pure Sorc will be good enough.
    This is why Wizards should have a revisited EK and Sorcerers should have a hybrid tree, with different bonuses and all that.

    Let's face it: this tree is mostly how it's going on live. 260~ replies on the most annoying issues and we have EXACTLY ONE Developer response that did not touch ANY SIGNIFICANT PROBLEM i.e. Spellsword cores, stupid pre-requisites, stupid abilities, nothing exciting, capstone ******.

    I'm glad Sorcerers will have Wand and Scroll Mastery and Toughness but that's it.
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  16. #256
    Community Member HatsuharuZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iriale View Post
    I think that the concept is wrong. EK in pnp is for multiclasses arcane/warrior, as Theurge mystic, and Arcane Trickster, and Arcane Archer.

    Arcanes don’t have enough BAB, or feats, or HD for melee. And they should not have if are pures.

    Please, this prestige should be for multiclass. Then we could obtain good gish builds. A gish that can be decent in melee and with spell damage and abjuration, or bad gish will be. A gish without high level spells and not DC for instant kills but good with low/medium level spells. DDO needs to start creating the first prestiges focused on multiclass. And so one day we can also have a mystical theurge (impossible without multiclass!) Give us a different prestige for pure arcanes in other update, a magical prestige. Let that EK be the first prestige oriented for multiclasses...

    And then, give us Theurge mystic in the future...
    Having looked at Mystic Theurge, I can't see much difference between it and PnP Eldritch Knight. I agree that arcanes have a great disadvantage in melee combat, though. (And for good reason!)

    EK seems to be more advantageous for wizards than sorcerers, since (pure) wizards get bonus feats. I find it hard to imagine a sorcerer *not* multiclassing when going for an Eldritch Knight build. In fact, EK is very useful for a variant of the oh-so-popular Juggernaut build.

  17. #257
    Community Member Saravis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iriale View Post
    I think that the concept is wrong. EK in pnp is for multiclasses arcane/warrior, as Theurge mystic, and Arcane Trickster, and Arcane Archer.

    Arcanes don’t have enough BAB, or feats, or HD for melee. And they should not have if are pures.

    Please, this prestige should be for multiclass. Then we could obtain good gish builds. A gish that can be decent in melee and with spell damage and abjuration, or bad gish will be. A gish without high level spells and not DC for instant kills but good with low/medium level spells. DDO needs to start creating the first prestiges focused on multiclass. And so one day we can also have a mystical theurge (impossible without multiclass!) Give us a different prestige for pure arcanes in other update, a magical prestige. Let that EK be the first prestige oriented for multiclasses...

    And then, give us Theurge mystic in the future...
    My only complaint with expecting multiclassing is what of the capstone? What purpose does it serve to be there?

    I don't think its fair to compare PNP to DDO as they have very different systems for PrEs.

  18. #258
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Having had a few minutes to think, I'll refine my thoughts.

    (1) I love some anti-dispel option, espescially on the things you think are core.

    (2) Move the elemental damage toggles into the tree and out of the core, similar to Henshin Mystic.

    (3) To the core

    Level 1 - Add mage armor here as an SLA; make it undispellable; for each core ablity (1/3/6/9/12/18/20) increase the CL for Shield, Mage Armor, Tensers, Haste and anything else wonky in the tree.
    Level 3 - Move the L1 strike here
    Level 6 - Add shield SLA here; make it undispellable
    Level 9 - Put a strike here - new
    Level 12 - Add tensers SLA here (not a stance); make it undispellable
    Level 18 - Move the current L20 ability here
    Level 20 - I still like Transform Kinetic energy here

    Tree abilities
    L1 - Improved Mage Armor - no longer the SLA, however improves your AC by the appropriate % AND T3 grants some dodge %
    L2 - Improved Shield - no longer the SLA, however improves your shield SLA by additional +1/2/3 AC AND the mentioned PRR (similar to how L2 abilities in Paladin affect sacred defense, etc.)
    L3 - Add Wraithstrike - SLA that grants Ghost Touch to your weapons
    L4 - Add a second tier to armor, allowing heavy armor prof and reduced ASF
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  19. #259
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    Capstone is still poor after update. The update didn't actually feel like an update at all. Going to get better damage and defense goign 41 savant 39 ek than other way around. may or may not serve well in a deep melee splash going to redo some 16/4 16/2/2 and 12/4/4 builds later to see. Done messing around with EK pure though put 20 hours in at 2 hour sessions at a time. Barely gave this last test 20 mins nothing to really say for it.

    My splashes are going to like the tree regardless, but I was hoping for a pure I could finally play.

  20. #260
    Community Member Wizza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exiledtyrant View Post
    Capstone is still poor after update. The update didn't actually feel like an update at all. Going to get better damage and defense goign 41 savant 39 ek than other way around. may or may not serve well in a deep melee splash going to redo some 16/4 16/2/2 and 12/4/4 builds later to see. Done messing around with EK pure though put 20 hours in at 2 hour sessions at a time. Barely gave this last test 20 mins nothing to really say for it.

    My splashes are going to like the tree regardless, but I was hoping for a pure I could finally play.
    I think most of us gave up after Feather's reply and the new Lamannia build.

    They didn't listen to us and this is the result. We have 1 reply/month, there is no way we can have a serious brainstorming with them.

    I'll post the main issues here for the 40th time, just in case:

    1) Spellsword cores
    2) Arcane barrier being a pre-req
    3) Need new cores and merge Spellsword into just one core
    4) Capstone is still weak and is too short
    5) Temporary HP from Eldritch Shield is useless
    6) No new shiny fun thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rys View Post
    Severlin and Severlin Online. PLAY FOR FREE* NOW!

    *maybe
    Quote Originally Posted by Rys View Post
    Reroll.

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