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  1. #141
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    fascinate is no where near as powerful as an aoe holding spell that inflicts helpless, which doesn't care if the target is mindless by the way. It also isn't limited by uses per rest like bard skills. Bards certainly aren't going to be dealing the dps of a arcane or an EK.

  2. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saravis View Post
    I'm going to state this first since I'd rather you address this than this argument go back and forth. Can you honestly look at this PrE and think its anything but mediocre? Can you compare it to the other PrEs and think its anything but subpar? Can you honestly look at it and think you would take this on a pure arcane or even an arcane with a light splash in something else?

    If you think this PrE is good as is, then please continue with this lovely argument. However, if you think it needs improving, why are we arguing? If you think it needs improved than provide suggestions as to how to improve it. This argument is needlessly taking away from that. I'm trying to dismiss the complaints of overpowered so that we can get back to making suggestions for improving. If you think this thing is OP, then by all means continue this argument. If you think it needs improved, don't you think your wasting your time arguing possibilities? If you disagree with a suggestion provide a better one. Our time would be a lot more productive than going back and forth on this argument.

    With that out of the way back to the delightful argument.


    I've already gone over that advantage.


    You can call it ridiculous all you want that doesn't make it any less applicable. I've made my point, an Eldritch that has to balance between melee and casting has a disadvantage regardless of the content vs. a caster and melee that can commit to their roles. If you want to call something OP you have to compare it to all possibilities. Furthermore, if you want to take CC from your Eldritch then you're no longer making your argument on the OP of mass hold on an Eldritch.


    At what cost? At what cost can an Eldritch achieve as much SP as a pure? At what cost can they have a viable melee option? At what cost can they achieve the necessary DCs to capably hold and keep enemies held? You are neglecting the downsides because you aren't looking at what each advantage costs and IF they can all be achieved.

    Look all I'm trying to tell you is that an Eldritch with mass hold is no more powerful than a standard caster with mass hold or a monk with stunning fist, yes the Eldritch does have advantages, but they also have disadvantages as well.
    1. The Eldritch has to use up SP on the hold vs. a monk has easily rechargeable ki.
    2. The Eldritch can hold more enemies with a mass hold vs. a monk can only hit one enemy.
    3. Mass hold has a chance to break free every 3 seconds vs. stunning fist that lasts as long as the cooldown does.
    4. An Eldritch can damage more held enemies (so long as they use SP) vs. a monk can only hit one enemy.
    5. An Eldritch does less damage with standard melee vs. a monk with superior melee.
    6. Mass hold needs spell pen and DCs to hit vs. a monk that can achieve a higher DC easier and doesn't require spell pen.
    7. The eldritch saves SP with melee vs. a caster that has to use spells
    8. The eldritch hits for less with melee vs. a caster that hits for more with spells.
    9. The Eldritch with strike and tempest are no better than a sorcerer with SLAs.
    Did I miss anything?
    If you were to compare an EK specialized in enchantment and an EK specialized in no save melee/ magic dps to an arcane specialized in aoe and enchantment and a fighter pure dps. I would say not only is the EK pair more resource efficient but would out put more damage aoe or otherwise. If an aoe EK wanted to to output more aoe dps at no sp cost they could simply splash to supreme cleave. Their melee is not so far behind as you would believe and if they had to weave in an aoe spell between cleaves it would still leave them at an advantage.


    The sp loss on even up to a 12/8 splash is negligible especially if you splash another arcane. 200-300 maybe.
    The dcs are all there as well as are the feats. Even if you needed a 5 dc stat stick you use it for the cast than swap to your actual weapon. I haven't neglected anything.


    Now you compare 2 classes that function different with 2 different resources ok.

    Mass hold can last for several minutes. If you have the dc to land the hold you should have the DC to maintain it.

    Eldritch can not only damage more enemies they can do it with various sources of damage some that disregard hit chance, DR, and double their damage on foes that are weak against the element.

    An EK gets the bonus of combing melee damage with spell damage and all the effects that come with it. Including glancing blow special procs and untyped damage from critcals.

    I find it hard to compare an SLA aoe or single target to tempest or strike. The damage is big I quite sure bigger than anything an SLA can pull off. Much bigger than i even know seeing as I tested my build using level 14 weapons, whatever enhancement bonus +1 stuff they had in the dojo and a rough pure sorc outline. It does hundreds even under those poor conditions though and if you really realllllly needed the aoe supreme cleave is an easy aoe to splash in.



    I personally like the EK Pre. Heavy armor prof, 11 Bab feats, some new cores and a stronger capstone would be nice. Even as though there is a solid foundation for a few melee splashes or melee elemental form builds.

  3. #143
    Community Member burningwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saravis View Post
    9. The Eldritch with strike and tempest are no better than a sorcerer with SLAs.
    they are far worst imo. these cost more sp and deal less damage. plus you must be melee range.

    p.s. and way longer cool down time

  4. #144
    Community Member Saravis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exiledtyrant View Post
    /snip
    You keep making all these grand statements of extreme power for the EK, but you are still neglecting to think of what they have to give up to get those things. I'm sorry to keep stating that, but you just do.

    12/8 split would give up 2 feats on a wizard, spell pen, caster level, spells, and 18 and 20 cores.
    Supreme Cleave would require 3 barb levels and cost 10 ap to get to and 1-3 ap to get. That's up to 13 ap away from other things. It also costs HP as well.
    An Eldritch that specializes in something has to give something else up.
    An Eldritch that balances isn't as good in something as someone that specializes in it.
    A caster investing in the Eldritch tree is not investing those same APs in something else.

    For every suggestion of something you can take to make the EK OP, there is something you have to give up somewhere else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Exiledtyrant View Post
    Heavy armor prof, 11 Bab feats, some new cores and a stronger capstone would be nice. Even as though there is a solid foundation for a few melee splashes or melee elemental form builds.
    That's a lot of stuff to be saying that you think the PrE is good as is.
    Anyway you've said it yourself here, there are things that the EK could use, meaning you think the EK could use improvement. So please provide these suggestions.

    Personally I dislike basing the Eldritch on what splashes can do because then the capstone and perhaps level 18 core becomes wasted, what then is the point?

    Quote Originally Posted by burningwind View Post
    they are far worst imo. these cost more sp and deal less damage. plus you must be melee range.

    p.s. and way longer cool down time
    Honestly, I agree with you wholeheartedly, I'm just trying to make the point to this individual that his mass holding EK is not so advantageous as he thinks. Strike and Tempest amount to nothing more than SP saving melee AoEs.

  5. #145
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    Default More melee/spell casting synergies - suggestions

    These would only operate while in Tensers

    Make each of the elemental toggles a debuff on hit to a specific save and spell resist. -1 will (cold), -1 fort (acid), -1 ref (lightning), -1 to -2 SR (fire). Set a reasonable max stack (-5?)

    Give some sort of bonus to touch range/short range spells. Thinking an increase in max caster levels for these spells, which would have the effect of increasing damage and spell pen.

  6. #146
    Community Member HatsuharuZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    Personally I think EKs should be limited and built around a 1-handed "Sword-like" weapon and an orb in the off-hand it was my original idea but people whined about it...but for the record I'd be fine with it that way.
    That sounds reasonable. Any one-handed weapon would be fine, regardless of what stat gets used for their to-hit/damage rolls.

  7. #147
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    I will be using some of these enhancements on my 28 human Sorcerer. I already have all the enhancements needed in WS and the racial line and have ~14 AP left that I put in ES just because I needed to put them somewhere. As I use a Heal Scroll+ scepter combo, my first post when I logged in after U19 was the absence of Scroll Mastery.

    I will be taking Toughness 3/3, Battlemage 3/3, Improved Shield 3/3, Wand and Scroll Mastery 3/3, +1 Charisma. I would change Toughness to Mage Armor if it did become -10 DR though.

    In case any is wondering why I prefer to solo/be self-sufficient and even when in group I will generally group mobs together so I get the most out of my AoE damage for the least Spell Points.

  8. #148
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    Could get a bit more legroom out of the PRE in a scaling manner if there was an enhancement for something along the lines of either: "adds your ranks in Arcane Lore to your BAB" or "Adds PRR equal to your Arcane Lore when wielding an orb." (The latter effectively treating it more like a shield.)

  9. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scraap View Post
    Could get a bit more legroom out of the PRE in a scaling manner if there was an enhancement for something along the lines of either: "adds your ranks in Arcane Lore to your BAB" or "Adds PRR equal to your Arcane Lore when wielding an orb." (The latter effectively treating it more like a shield.)
    The problem is the amount of misses you generate in the PRE. The easiest solution is still to add +chr/int to attack/damage. Of course, there are a few other things I would like but this is the most important.

  10. #150
    Community Member Sokól's Avatar
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    After a quick glance I see this tree as pure flavor and imo could only be viable for some kind of a monk wiz combo in EE...
    Argonnessen: Hilmir - Purkilius - Jinu - Vignir @ Blood Assassin´s

  11. #151
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sokól View Post
    After a quick glance I see this tree as pure flavor and imo could only be viable for some kind of a monk wiz combo in EE...
    It is pure flavour, the thing is it could be a great PrE if the devs listened to the constructive feedback. I'm hoping the cha/int haters didnt scare the devs away though...its possible since there isnt a single dev response.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  12. #152
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exiledtyrant View Post
    fascinate is no where near as powerful as an aoe holding spell that inflicts helpless, which doesn't care if the target is mindless by the way. It also isn't limited by uses per rest like bard skills. Bards certainly aren't going to be dealing the dps of a arcane or an EK.
    Fascinate lasts MINUTES, so the group can pick apart one mob at a time. Fascinate actually works on more mobs now that bards can do it to undead and constructs. Halt undead does care if the target is mindless.

    Are Ek going to have viable melee while retaining all of the benefits of being a caster DC/ spell pen wise? Its easy to get a fascinate DC that works in EE even on a str build bard. How easy will this be to have a working DC for an EK?
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  13. #153
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Fascinate lasts MINUTES, so the group can pick apart one mob at a time. Fascinate actually works on more mobs now that bards can do it to undead and constructs. Halt undead does care if the target is mindless.
    On paper. In practice, this hasnt' been working.
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  14. #154
    Community Member Yaga_Nub's Avatar
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    Without INT/CHA to hit and damage at very low levels, even is it's just a new auto-granted spell that costs spell points then this PrE is a non-starter and should just stay on Lama-land.
    Characters - Brion, Damerchant, Deathbot, Goode-, Minusten, Sepiriz, Spiritstrike, Stee, Steilh, Vorpaal, Wyllye, Yaga, Yagalicious, Yga. RIP - Catpizzle and Qazpe
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  15. #155

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    My 2c
    Dump the elemental toggles that can only have one active, there should be one weapon toggle and it should grant force damage, starting with just damage on hit and improved with cores by capstone being a force equivalent of skybreaker (hit damage, crit more damage, vorp BOOM!)

    add a shield toggle that is improved with core enhancements adding AC and PRR (ie +2prr and +2Ac per core) like a shield this could just improve the shield spell but would rather it be a toggle that costs to activate, not to maintain.

    Add a mage armor toggle that again increases PRR and AC based on cores taken. Also snazzy purple sparkles and glowing aura wouldn't hurt.

    Melee cast On hit versions of certain spells would be good too, such as fireball, electric loop, burning hands, so they can be woven into melee attacks but would not have the range or the cast animation of the originals.
    Formerly Rathic of harvestgain

  16. #156
    Community Member Sokól's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    It is pure flavour, the thing is it could be a great PrE if the devs listened to the constructive feedback. I'm hoping the cha/int haters didnt scare the devs away though...its possible since there isnt a single dev response.
    Well if the elemental dmg works on ranged I can see a 17 wiz 2 monk 1 ranger in shiradi spamming mm between manyshot also an ok build for this tree but that kind of build would require many past lives and tons of gear well at least tons of gear just might try it for fun if we get that box with citw weapons when the uptate hits.

    17 wiz for pw:kill and energy drain.
    Argonnessen: Hilmir - Purkilius - Jinu - Vignir @ Blood Assassin´s

  17. #157
    The Hatchery Scraap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alceste007 View Post
    The problem is the amount of misses you generate in the PRE. The easiest solution is still to add +chr/int to attack/damage. Of course, there are a few other things I would like but this is the most important.
    Check your character sheet under feats. They increment the count of Arcane Lore every level of sorc or wiz, so that'd be a +20 to-hit and PRR for a pure (of course, they also increment it for bards and Arties, but really, why shouldn't those synergize well?).

  18. #158
    Community Member HatsuharuZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    It is pure flavour, the thing is it could be a great PrE if the devs listened to the constructive feedback. I'm hoping the cha/int haters didnt scare the devs away though...its possible since there isnt a single dev response.
    The devs rarely tell us what they are thinking, ever.

    Also, using int/cha for damage with two-handed weapons would likely lower the variety of builds that use the EK tree. They'd all be half-orcs with great axes, or warforged with great swords.

  19. #159
    Community Member Saravis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HatsuharuZ View Post
    The devs rarely tell us what they are thinking, ever.

    Also, using int/cha for damage with two-handed weapons would likely lower the variety of builds that use the EK tree. They'd all be half-orcs with great axes, or warforged with great swords.
    Personally if they do add int/cha for hit and/or damage in some way I'd be cool with restricting it to one-handed weapons in keeping with the theme of the PrE.

  20. #160
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    For starters I haven't yet touched the new enhancements, so my opinions are based on
    A. Reading the descriptions as posted
    B. Playtime on a 28 Human Pure Sorcerer and a 28 Horc Monk(the relevance here being survival of a non-armored toon)
    C. Discussion with my guildies, most of whom I'd call brilliant

    Anyway, from what I'm seeing, this tree is going to be vaguely doable for wizards. Between necro options for self healing, the various immunities of the dead could lead to something functional, what with the int-to-reflex and extra feats I'm sure there exists a build somewhere in there. I doubt the tree has endgame-ready power in it even for them though.

    Sorcs, on the other hand, I don't see gaining at all from this. Sorcs don't have the feats to spec a second spell school reliably, much less take melee feats that don't benefit their magic in the slightest. Plus, without the necro-self healing options(even a zombie form can death-aura) they'll be eating scrolls faster than ever, or popping cocoon, which is also totally inadequate for the kind of play this tree implies(and its not available before 20). Further, we lack the death-form immunities, we get a few in apotheosis form but it won't be of much use to an eldritch. Since our dcs are somewhat less than the competing wizard, we will have less opportunity to land dps spells and the need to spec into a savant to get spellpower out of the equation will either leave us with 4 severely underwhelming element choices or essentially lop one off and use the remainder. Which would be fine, I guess, but the wizard eldritch will have his int-boosted spellcraft and 1point-per-point enhancement spellpower. We will lag behind a wizard if we don't specialize and since we won't really have the points to max a savant, well be fairly unhappy with the damage there as well.
    Lack of spell swapping and slots means eldritch sorcs will be less able to tailor to the fight, which is fine in a single-element maxed savant, but in a melee esque toon with severely undercut spellpower? I think not.

    Also, some things for the consideration of all, as regards the enhancements, the build that might employ it, and the classes that it's been given to.

    1. Why don't bards get in on this? Forget canon, this tree has appeal for bards who like their melee, just a thought.
    2. What weapons shall a toon employing this tree wield? Swords with damage procs or caster items? And don't tell me about switching, I know a lot of players who don't feel like toggling weapons back and forth as part of their DPS cycle, its not unreasonable.
    3. Armor, very nice right? Ignoring AC because its effects are not so well determined, the PRR option for a sorc/wiz proficient in heavy armor is like what? 20? I'm a big fan of prr, the elemental prr is a boon to my savant, but 20 prr for the amount of investment it will take to get a sorc/wiz into heavy armor?
    Also, what light-med-heavy armor has the arcane bonuses of robes? I understand this is a tree with non-arcane bonuses, but I find robes to be absolutely crucial for the bonuses they bring. I'm thinking shadowmail and blue scale, thats about it.
    4. Is there a point to this option? I mean legitimately? As has been said, a melee arcane can be done with a bard, he'll get self healing and bard songs to boot. This guy will be far behind a dps sorc for damage, far behind a necro for dcs, and have nothing to show for it but half the effectiveness of a fighter. Worse still because if they prevent int-cha to damage we will never really be doing much outright dps with weapons. I'd like to see something like this, I guess but right now it seems very half-baked.

    Extra questions:

    Is this "the other sorc prestige"? I have felt wizards get more love than sorcs for a while, warforged sorcs get away with murder but fleshy sorcs are working way hard for what they have. I feel like the need to have umd or cocoon to be viable speaks volumes to my point. Anyway, I'm really disappointed if they gave us savants, took away half the general bonuses and options we had pre-pass, then when we ask for a new tree to fill it out they give us a lame synergy-starved tree that we share with wizards and indeed, it works better for them than us.

    What happened to Acolyte or Dragon-Disciple as I'm seeing discussed?
    If I could beg for anything in a new sorc tree I'd like some form of self-healing(especially if it comes from an arcane spell), at this point we are the only caster-class that doesn't get a class-intrinsic self healing option of some sort. PRR if the self-healing is off the table, my sorc, unarmored but wearing a guardians ring has like 50, not huge but it makes a difference. A generic elemental spellpower line, even if it's exclusive would be nice. A fire savant doesn't have enough AP to push a second element through the savant tree, but a short spellpower-MCL line would make my emergency lightning much more satisfactory without overpowering it.
    If they mix any of the above into eldritch, I'll stop complaining about the tree and just take what I need. Right now theres not enough offered to get me to start spending ap in the tree.

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