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  1. #121
    Community Member xMund's Avatar
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    I completely agree with above comments, that for this tree to make any kind of sense it needs to include a significant boost to base melee damage. I also think that, as a hybrid, EK's should not be as effective melee combatants as the full-blooded version and still maintain near-full casting ability. My suggestion for a compromise would be an arcane equivalent to Divine Might, which adds INT/CHA-modifier to strength. That way, together with the elemental toggles and tensers, you get meaningful but not top-shelf melee output, and close to full casting capability (except for the AP spent in EK).

  2. #122
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xMund View Post
    I completely agree with above comments, that for this tree to make any kind of sense it needs to include a significant boost to base melee damage. I also think that, as a hybrid, EK's should not be as effective melee combatants as the full-blooded version and still maintain near-full casting ability. My suggestion for a compromise would be an arcane equivalent to Divine Might, which adds INT/CHA-modifier to strength. That way, together with the elemental toggles and tensers, you get meaningful but not top-shelf melee output, and close to full casting capability (except for the AP spent in EK).
    Int/Cha to damage =/= top shelf melee damage it puts us about on par with bards the great thing about rangers, barbarians and fighters is they get a bunch of abilities that make them great at fighting...EK gets none of that what they get is the ability to be even with a vanilla (no enhancements) fighter. Also Divine Might sucks I don't get the love Paladins have for it..its a SUPER short term buff that adds cha to str...big whoop.

    There is no reason to disallow some sort of Cha/Int to damage in a world where switching stats functions is commonplace not to mention that Str goes WAY!!! higher than any other stat both ways have advantages and disadvantages and will create more variety amongst EK players which is a GOOD thing and frankly DDOs life blood...if you want cookie cutter classes...well World of Warcraft is free up to level 20 now feel free to go play that.

    Now if you REALLY want to make it complicated instead of simple you could have it be charisma (or int) to atk and your cha mod (or int mod) adds an equal amount of force damage to your any melee attack...but your actual damage STAT is still technically Str. It basically the same thing but is really complicated and confusing which is what everyoen seems to insist on it being.
    Last edited by Failedlegend; 10-14-2013 at 03:45 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
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  3. #123
    Community Member Systern's Avatar
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    Eldritch Knight get Martial Training at tier 2. Warchanters get it at Tier 5. EKs get added doublestrike to boot. (It even adds DAxe prof for dwarves.)
    EK's get Medium Armor Proficiency at tier 4. Warchanters get it at Tier 5. EKs get the added ASF reduction to shields which I begged for Warchanters. Althought the amount of ASF reduction is trivial. Small shields add 10% ASF. Large 25%. Towers 40-50%... -5% ASF is insufficient; even the total -20% in the tree is insufficient.

    WC level 18 core adds a combat rider to a buff- Inspire Courage. Bards longest duration buff that's never performed in combat. The WC capstone adds +1 damage to Inspire courage, and a net loss to DPS (I don't do damage for 6 seconds, you get +5 damage for 12.)

    The best warchanter post U20 is a 16 Bard/4 wizard split with the bulk of their points spent in EK and Spellsinger. A Bard with medium armor, full martial proficiency, and spell song vigor as well. When the best thing you can do for your Prestige is take 4 levels of another class and spend 30 AP in their tree, something's wrong.


    This tree completely obsoletes warchanters, which weren't very relevant to begin with.
    Last edited by Systern; 10-14-2013 at 03:59 AM.

  4. #124
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    Also Divine Might sucks I don't get the love Paladins have for it..its a SUPER short term buff that adds cha to str...big whoop.
    Have you tried it? As long as you don't dump cha it's pretty much a small version of barbarian rage with none of the downsides. +12 str? Thank you I want that. I won't build a melee without at least 1 fvs level now for divine might.

  5. #125
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    Default Int/CHa for to hit and/or damage - yes please

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnbeimnech View Post
    int/cha to hit and damage wouldnt solve the problem of still needing str for power attack and gthf and owc, so you will still have rather poor melee dps.
    Which is as it should be. On the one hand it offers an easier choice of what stats to max, getting more out of your main caster stat. Or you can more or less dump the caster stat and go full strength if you want. Both should be viable choices depending on what you want to achieve with your build (ok-ish melee with some arcane abilities or solid arcane with a melee backup option).

    Off course neither will make you a great melee character but that is fine, it still is an arcane after all.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    Also Divine Might sucks I don't get the love Paladins have for it..its a SUPER short term buff that adds cha to str...big whoop.
    The new version of Divine Might isn't loved by all Paladins. It's definitely loved by DC based Paladins, but those are usually only a few levels of Paladin and many many levels of Fighter. TWF Paladins and many of the Pure Paladins (that still exist), among other types of Paladins, aren't keen on the Divine Might changes.

  7. #127
    Community Member Lanhelin's Avatar
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    There should be an Enhancement in the EK tree, that adds a certain % amount of actual Spellpoints OR Force Spellpower to melee damage. Or add a procc chance for a similar effect, that adds dmg based on actual SP / Force Spellpower. Maybe additional to the Core 20 Enhancement.

    Actually building a Battlemage or Spellsword requires splashing. Fighter/Wizard or something like that. The main purpose of spells for a melee Wizard are buffs. She/he won't cast that many offensive spells like a pure caster would. She/he isn't a range caster, but a melee slayer. Increased Force Spellpower thence should have more beneficial passive effects on melee damage for Eldritch Knights.


    Edit
    Another suggestion: Add a better version of all the spells that increase abilities in the EK tree. Eg. this could be an additional Effect on the Core Enhancements. Every Core (started with the second one) adds +2 to the Ability raise spells like Bull's Strenght, etc. so it'd be +14 at Core 20. Just to make these spells worthwhile again, especially for a melee Wizard. Or instead of the Mage Armor SLA one has to choose one of the ability raising spells and it's enhanceable up to +10 or something like that.
    Last edited by Lanhelin; 10-14-2013 at 08:45 AM.

  8. #128
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    I think we have to be very careful about to many melee buffs on EK. Make to many strong low tier buffs and they never catch up to a melee splash. Make them to powerful and then every melee has to be EK. EK have hundreds if not thousands of extra no save and varied damage sources to chain together with their melee. I would like options for 11 BaB feats and heavy armor prof to make pures more viable, merged spell sword cores, and a better capstone. I am not sure about all this extra melee base damage or % spell power damage etc being thrown around. Just because some people won't cast doesn't mean the people who want to get as much dps as possible won't. I most definitely will be chaining my most efficient dots together and meleeing in between my 6-12 second windows.

    While I think int/cha mods would be nice I worry about it's uses on a two handed weapon fighter. They lose out on the STR feats yet may gain the DC necessary to use Helpless invoking CC on a reliable basis. It may be to hard to balance a fighter that can spam mass holds etc for 50% damage amp. Two weapon fighting is to crippled by the dex requirements but Two handed fighting needs far less stats especially with str out of the way.

    Also why the hate on arcane barrier? 25% damage reduction for 20 seconds on a 90 second cooldown doesn't look bad to me. that's only 70 second down time on a pretty huge damage reudction ability. Legendary dreadnaught would wish to be that lucky with its Damage reduction active.
    Last edited by Exiledtyrant; 10-14-2013 at 10:16 AM.

  9. #129
    Community Member HatsuharuZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    Actually to clarify I've been asking for it to work for "Sword-like" weapons since their iconic to EKs (so Longsword, Shortsword, Scimitars, B-Swords, Greatsword and Falchions)


    Also PDK Cha atk/dmg uses ONE ap and post U20 no longer require a fighter level so a single-class Sorc could pick it up easily...so all not giving EK cha/int atk.dmg accomplishes is forcing all EK Sorcs to be PDKs and snubbing Wiz EKs....woot let limit build diveristy a much as possible...build diversity is the life blood of DnD and DDO alike and it's people like you and DMs like Uska with ridiculous blocking of content that ruins that.

    Tempest "Graceful death" is a Core 6 ability which is the same as one of the core I have suggested for cha atk/dmgs location (or just dmgs location with atk at lvl 1)

    Also one thing you consistently ignore the fact that not going Str-based has massive disadvantages...locks out a bunch of feats (ie. Power Attack & Overwhelmiong Critical), also Str has a MUCH higher ceiling than any other stat especially compared to mental stats. (IIRC the highest Str is 110ish)

    Lastly complaining about how Sorcs (or Wizards) shouldn't be able to melee effectively is dumb this is a !!!MELEE!!! prestige class it needs to an effective melee fighter and if it has to give up its arcane casting for it...well whats the point. You may as well just play a normal melee since they get all sorts of crazy things to make them way better melees whereas EKs entire tree is designed to catch them up to a melee before they invest in their prestige classes. Not to mention having to split their feats between melee and casting feats.
    I am not ignoring the the fact that not going strength-based locks out an entire feat line. I specifically said in my previous post that there are trade-offs. You seem to be ignoring the entire arcane spell list, however. Please note that a wizard or sorcerer who gets their main casting stat to damage won't need any melee feats, since they can cast spells from the arcane spell list... like acid rain, for instance. Int or Cha to to-hit rolls? Sure. Int/Cha for damage rolls with great swords and falchions? No, not when that same stat lets you consistently do spell damage from range in most content.

  10. #130
    Community Member Saravis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exiledtyrant View Post
    While I think int/cha mods would be nice I worry about it's uses on a two handed weapon fighter. They lose out on the STR feats yet may gain the DC necessary to use Helpless invoking CC on a reliable basis. It may be to hard to balance a fighter that can spam mass holds etc for 50% damage amp. Two weapon fighting is to crippled by the dex requirements but Two handed fighting needs far less stats especially with str out of the way.
    Not really much different than a typical monk with stunning fist. I might even give monk the advantage with having an easier time reaching higher DCs, no spell pen to deal with, and faster attacks.

    Furthermore an arcane can already get an extra 50% helpless damage with spells. So I don't really see all that much of a difference between one that gets 50% extra damage with a spell and one that does so with a weapon.
    Last edited by Saravis; 10-14-2013 at 10:28 AM.

  11. #131
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    Last I checked a monk can't CC an entire room or worst yet mass hold them so they are all helpless in one go. A straight cha Two handed fighter would have access to all the spell feats needed even more so on a wizard, vamp/lich. Also consider sorc cooldowns even under tensers barely any thing reaches higher than a 4 second cooldown many are 2 or under.

    The difference is an arcane has to give up their melee option to get the type of helpless up time I am talking about. Ek now supports the melee option and can only get better. Arcane would also require more sp investment due to using spells to kill helpless mobs while an Ek could use melee and do just as well.
    Last edited by Exiledtyrant; 10-14-2013 at 10:38 AM.

  12. #132
    Community Member Saravis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exiledtyrant View Post
    Last I checked a monk can't CC an entire room or worst yet mass hold them so they are all helpless in one go. A straight cha Two handed fighter would have access to all the spell feats needed even more so on a wizard, vamp/lich. Also consider sorc cooldowns even under tensers barely any thing reaches higher than a 4 second cooldown many are 2 or under.
    But without cleave they would still be able to only attack one enemy at a time, getting only a paltry bit of extra damage on glancing blows. So the only advantage lies in that they wouldn't be attacked as much compared to a monk. However, that advantage already exists for mass hold, that fact isn't changed whether the arcane hits with a weapon or a spell. Furthermore with a spell, the caster can take advantage of the multiple holds with using an AoE.

  13. #133
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    I'm pretty sure their cleaves are called eldritch strike and eldritch tempest. also there is nothing stopping an EK that can spec for saves to use save or no save aoe spells.

    I already listed the disadvantage of an arcane using more spells points per kill than an EK that can use melee and avoid using sp altogether. Slower yes but no where near as slow as an arcane with 0 melee viability. the 50% damage would ensure good damage either way.

  14. #134
    Community Member Saravis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exiledtyrant View Post
    I'm pretty sure their cleaves are called eldritch strike and eldritch tempest. also there is nothing stopping an EK that can spec for saves to use save or no save aoe spells.

    I already listed the disadvantage of an arcane using more spells points per kill than an EK that can use melee and avoid using sp altogether. Slower yes but no where near as slow as an arcane with 0 melee viability. the 50% damage would ensure good damage either way.
    With their cooldowns you can't spam strike and tempest and they also cost sp, so they would just end up being added to a typical aoe rotation. So are we talking an arcane that uses SP to take advantage of the multiple holds or are we talking one that doesn't and can't take advantage of the multiple holds?

    Also does this same argument apply to Sorcs as well? I keep seeing complaints about inflated saves coming from wizards and sorcs can't nearly get as high DCs as wizards. So I hope this isn't another case of forgetting the sorc yet again.

  15. #135
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exiledtyrant View Post
    While I think int/cha mods would be nice I worry about it's uses on a two handed weapon fighter. They lose out on the STR feats yet may gain the DC necessary to use Helpless invoking CC on a reliable basis. It may be to hard to balance a fighter that can spam mass holds etc for 50% damage amp. Two weapon fighting is to crippled by the dex requirements but Two handed fighting needs far less stats especially with str out of the way.
    You mean like a Monks Stunning fist who has the fastest attack speed in the game as well as the biggest base damage die (3.5d6 before any Monk Past lives, reinforced fists, epic weapons and shintao empty Handed mastery)

    Also don't forget that Tensers has massive penalties vs. DC casting so even with MAX cha or int a EK will still be behind a full caster.

    Speaking of a full caster lets look at what a typical single class Sorc needs to function feat wise



    1 Maximize
    2 Empower
    3 Quicken
    4 Heighten
    5 SF: Evo or Conj
    6 GSF: Evo or Conj
    7 Toughness or Extend

    Yep...just as I though by being a melee you'll have to give up a bunch of spellcasting feats to fit in the melee stuff...stop pretending like EKs are getting the whole package theres is a multitude of trade-offs already built in and w/o the ability to have cha/int to atk/damage those trades -offs won't be worth it...I mean I LOVE my battle wiz but he is NOT raid material, hell he's not even Heroic elite material which is why he sticks to a static group....incredibly fun, nigh impossible to kill (mostly due to PM and my skill at dodging attacks in melee which I've been informed is impossible) as long as he has spell points but has barely passable DPS even when combining Magic and Melee getting Int to attack/damage would finally make him a useful character in a non-static group (still wouldn't make him top tier but enough that I don't have to spend 20 minutes explaining how my wizard is going to fill the tank slot and explaining to the cleric why I'm not going to ditch my aura for this raid).

    I mean if EK doesn't get Int/Cha to atk/dmg I'll just make a Sorc with PDK since they aren't forced to keep that first level any more I mean this means EVERY EK will have to be a PDK Sorc if they want to go Cha Atk/Dmg and Wizards would be out of luck...so in short all not giving Cha/int to atk/dmg is limiting build diversity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lanhelin View Post
    There should be an Enhancement in the EK tree, that adds a certain % amount of actual Spellpoints OR Force Spellpower to melee damage. Or add a procc chance for a similar effect, that adds dmg based on actual SP / Force Spellpower. Maybe additional to the Core 20 Enhancement.
    As a core 20? what are we supposed to do between Lvls 1-19? Core 6 at its highest and what your describing is complicated...force spellpower or spellpoints % can easily be distilled down to "casting ability" which = Cha or Int which = Cha/Int to ATK/DMG simple straight forward...100% required to make EK not suck.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lanhelin View Post
    Actually building a Battlemage or Spellsword requires splashing. Fighter/Wizard or something like that. The main purpose of spells for a melee Wizard are buffs. She/he won't cast that many offensive spells like a pure caster would. She/he isn't a range caster, but a melee slayer. Increased Force Spellpower thence should have more beneficial passive effects on melee damage for Eldritch Knights.
    Actually your whilst Eldritch knights tend not o use spell like fireball they do tend to use melee touch spells which require DCs to be just as high.

    Also EK should be built to work just fine for single-class Sorc or Wiz but shouldn't be REQUIRED to be single-class because again build diveristy (and multi-classing) are the lifeblood of this MMO....want cookie cutter always does the same thing every time...go play WoW its free till Lvl 20 now...or some of the 100s of F2P clones of it. DDO is unique and amazing please stop trying to make it into another WoW clone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Have you tried it? As long as you don't dump cha it's pretty much a small version of barbarian rage with none of the downsides. +12 str? Thank you I want that. I won't build a melee without at least 1 fvs level now for divine might.
    First off to get +12 you need 36 Charisma that's alot more than "not dumping it"...how are you getting 36 charisma without hurting your Str or Con second just like Paladins, EK do need high stats in alot of things Str, Dex, Con, Int or Cha have we not learned form Pallys sucking that spreading stats so thin is a recipe for disaster.


    Quote Originally Posted by HatsuharuZ View Post
    I am not ignoring the the fact that not going strength-based locks out an entire feat line. I specifically said in my previous post that there are trade-offs. You seem to be ignoring the entire arcane spell list, however. Please note that a wizard or sorcerer who gets their main casting stat to damage won't need any melee feats, since they can cast spells from the arcane spell list... like acid rain, for instance. Int or Cha to to-hit rolls? Sure. Int/Cha for damage rolls with great swords and falchions? No, not when that same stat lets you consistently do spell damage from range in most content.
    Personally I think EKs should be limited and built around a 1-handed "Sword-like" weapon and an orb in the off-hand it was my original idea but people whined about it...but for the record I'd be fine with it that way.
    Last edited by Failedlegend; 10-14-2013 at 11:38 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  16. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saravis View Post
    With their cooldowns you can't spam strike and tempest and they also cost sp, so they would just end up being added to a typical aoe rotation. So are we talking an arcane that uses SP to take advantage of the multiple holds or are we talking one that doesn't and can't take advantage of the multiple holds?

    Also does this same argument apply to Sorcs as well? I keep seeing complaints about inflated saves coming from wizards and sorcs can't nearly get as high DCs as wizards. So I hope this isn't another case of forgetting the sorc yet again.
    I highly doubt an arcane would be fitting in strike and tempest into their aoe rotation. The damage from their spell stat stick let alone 0 melee specialization would be laughable at best compared to an EK focused melee.

    You shouldn't have to spam spam strike or tempest to deliver good aoe damage especially on a 50% damage amp. That's 45 sp not even close to the sp an arcane would have to use in sp if they used even 2 aoe spell. It would probably average out to be more sp even if an EK used 1 aoe spell and then their cleaves. Or they could just take the option to clear with melee only at slightly reduced speed at 0 sp cost at the cost with only more time put in. It's not like anything would be fighting back to make taking 5 seconds longer to kill something a hazard. Even less so if they splash other melee class for actives and aoes. The same does not apply to a DC arcane. They would have no use for haste boost or supreme cleave actives etc.

    It's not about who can take advantage of multiple holds it's who more resource efficient. An EK with cha/int could not only do what the arcane does spell wise but also be more efficient at it with more damage options.


    The argument does apply to both. At worst a pure sorc is 4 enchantment dc behind a wizard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    You mean like a Monks Stunning fist who has the fastest attack speed in the game as well as the biggest base damage die (3.5d6 before any Monk Past lives, reinforced fists, epic weapons and shintao empty Handed mastery)

    Also don't forget that Tensers has massive penalties vs. DC casting so even with MAX cha or int a EK will still be behind a full caster.

    Speaking of a full caster lets look at what a typical single class Sorc needs to function feat wise



    1 Maximize
    2 Empower
    3 Quicken
    4 Heighten
    5 SF: Evo or Conj
    6 GSF: Evo or Conj
    7 Toughness or Extend

    Yep...just as I though by being a melee you'll have to give up a bunch of spellcasting feats to fit in the melee stuff...stop pretending like EKs are getting the whole package theres is a multitude of trade-offs already built in and w/o the ability to have cha/int to atk/damage those trades -offs won't be worth it...I mean I LOVE my battle wiz but he is NOT raid material, hell he's not even Heroic elite material which is why he sticks to a static group....incredibly fun, nigh impossible to kill (mostly due to PM and my skill at dodging attacks in melee which I've been informed is impossible) as long as he has spell points but has barely passable DPS even when combining Magic and Melee getting Int to attack/damage would finally make him a useful character in a non-static group (still wouldn't make him top tier but enough that I don't have to spend 20 minutes explaining how my wizard is going to fill the tank slot and explaining to the cleric why I'm not going to ditch my aura for this raid).

    Again like I've been repeating this stuff 4 times over stunning fist is not a mass helpless debuff for much longer duration on much lower cooldown.

    Tenser's penalties are not massive: double cooldown( oh no my 1 second spell is 2 now) the only spell even remotly hampered by tenser's is niac's biting cold and Eladar's electric surge, -2 dcs and -2 spell resist. Also it's a toggle now with low cost one at that. As simple as nailing the pack of mobs before toggling it on or cast it after you've CCed them.

    A wizard will have no problem reaching the feats. A human will have an easier time too, and a sorc can just splash. Honestly Quicken and extend are already maybe feats at best. The only melee stuff to fit in would be improved critical on a str dumped build.
    Last edited by Exiledtyrant; 10-14-2013 at 12:29 PM.

  17. #137
    Community Member Saravis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exiledtyrant View Post
    I highly doubt an arcane would be fitting in strike and tempest into their aoe rotation. The damage from their spell stat stick let alone 0 melee specialization would be laughable at best compared to an EK forcused melee.

    You shouldn't have to spam spam strike or tempest to deliver good aoe damage especially on a 50% damage amp. That's 45 sp not even close to the sp an arcane would have to use in sp if they used even 2 aoe spell. It would probably average out to be more sp even if an EK used 1 aoe spell and then their cleaves. Or they could just take the option to clear with melee only at slightly reduced speed at 0 sp cost at the cost with only more time put in. It's not like anything would be fighting back to make taking 5 seconds longer to kill something a hazard. Even less so if they splash other melee class for actives and aoes. The same does not apply to a DC arcane. They would have no use for haste boost or supreme cleave actives etc.
    But that's the thing, they can't spam strike and tempest, so unless that's all you want to do, which would end up being some very pathetic DPS, you have to add something else to your rotation. If you're doing regular attacks, then you're not taking advantage of the multiple holds, if you're using your spells then you're using the SP that a standard caster uses, with only saving some from the occasional strike or tempest.

    If you're doing the latter, such a rotation is no different than a sorc adding his SLAs to his rotation. If you're doing the former, it comes down to a question of which gets more DPS, an Eldritch using standard slower, weaker, melee with the occasional strike and tempest vs. a monk that can attack considerably faster and harder. There's also the matter that mass hold can be broken every 3 seconds with a 6 second cooldown (longer with tensers) vs. stunning strike with a six second duration and six second cooldown.

    Furthermore what about adding another player to this mix, compare a single Eldritch with the supposed OP advantages that you've mentioned vs. a caster committed to AoE damage and quality enchantment with a melee with top DPS and all the melee AoE options. The eldritch has to balance between melee and spells, where as the caster and melee can fully commit to their respective roles. Sure dungeon scaling would mean tougher enemies for the two, but would it be enough to make up for the obvious advantage? Furthermore with dungeon scaling, adding additional players to the eldritch would mean that the holds would have a harder time landing and the advantages drop.

    Quote Originally Posted by Exiledtyrant View Post
    It's not about who can take advantage of multiple holds it's who more resource efficient. An EK with cha/int could not only do what the arcane does spell wise but also be more efficient at it with more damage options.
    Depends on what they're willing to sacrifice for those damage options, every complaint about being overpowered I see in this thread keeps complaining about everything that an eldritch can potentially add, what those complaints are neglecting to think of is what they lose in the process.

    Quote Originally Posted by Exiledtyrant View Post
    The argument does apply to both. At worst a pure sorc is 4 enchantment dc behind a wizard.
    I question that, a wizard has an easier time fitting in focus feats and is more likely to run in magister for the extra DC than a sorc would. However 4 dc is still pretty significant and not something to scoff at.
    Last edited by Saravis; 10-14-2013 at 12:36 PM.

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    I'm going to go ahead and state the obvious. The biggest advantage of a multiple hold is the ability to make a mass of mobs unable to act. No other melee has the ability to do that let alone set up almost indefinite helplessness on multiple enemies. If multiple enemies are held you are always taking advantage of that state.

    Your argument trying to compare a melee and arcane vs 1 ek is ridiculous you can't compare two characters to one. If you get 2 specialist than the I get 2 specialist. This started with arcane vs ek and now you want to drag an entire group into it and all the countless scenarios that come with it. I'll tell you what if the Ek was in a group with an enchanment specialist or CCer they wouldn't even need to spec for CC. They could just go full no save damage. Your making the arguments about 2 entirely different things at this point. EK is more efficient in the long run than an arcane. It's one of it's flat out benefits. Pure will have slightly higher damage potential but again that is a given at higher resource cost or less utility.

    I am not neglecting downsides I am pointing out the potential danger of allowing a melee & magic hybrid the ability to use a debuff that can trivialize a great deal pve trash. You gain the semi viable melee option, almost as much spell power as a pure, and more CC than any melee pure can dream of.

  19. #139
    Community Member burningwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HatsuharuZ View Post
    Wizards and sorcs are the top-tier damage-dealing casters. I am opposed to them having to-hit AND damage being modified by their main casting stat for that reason. All of the other things you've listed are melees or races that need to spend lots of AP in their racial tree, and they are giving up something for in return, as you've said. The feats,, Paladin saves and Occult Slayer are irrelevent to the discussion. What has been asked for is cha/int being used for to-hit and damage for ALL weapons. Like great swords. I'm not against the idea of using alternate stats for to-hit and damage, I'm against making *both* of those things available to sorcerers and wizards. Acid Rain, Wail of the Banshee, Firewall, Web, both Death Auras, Solid Fog, Crushing Despair, every single spell that causes negative levels or dances the enemy... *sigh* http://ddowiki.com/page/Sorcerer_/_Wizard_spells .

    The arcane spell list has enough damage and debuffing options, even ones without saves, to kill most anything. Yet you want to use your main casting stat for to-hit AND damage rolls for physical damage?

    [sarcasm] Hey, why not ask for spellpower to apply to your damage rolls while your at it? Sorcs are too gimp otherwise! [/sarcasm]
    just because they are the top-tier damage dealing class thats why they must have something equal to trade off.

    you do not ask a wiz/sorc to trade their top tier spell dps to moderate melee ability. taking melee path will hurt their casting ability, and if no int/cha to damage/hit this would means they have no casting/cc ability. as their dc will not be enough for ee content.

    p.s. if you can instant kill a huge group of monster would you rather spend more time and risk yourself to melee them??? if they don't do any improve this prestige need not to exist.



    Quote Originally Posted by Exiledtyrant View Post
    I'm going to go ahead and state the obvious. The biggest advantage of a multiple hold is the ability to make a mass of mobs unable to act. No other melee has the ability to do that let alone set up almost indefinite helplessness on multiple enemies. If multiple enemies are held you are always taking advantage of that state.

    Your argument trying to compare a melee and arcane vs 1 ek is ridiculous you can't compare two characters to one. If you get 2 specialist than the I get 2 specialist. This started with arcane vs ek and now you want to drag an entire group into it and all the countless scenarios that come with it. I'll tell you what if the Ek was in a group with an enchanment specialist or CCer they wouldn't even need to spec for CC. They could just go full no save damage. Your making the arguments about 2 entirely different things at this point. EK is more efficient in the long run than an arcane. It's one of it's flat out benefits. Pure will have slightly higher damage potential but again that is a given at higher resource cost or less utility.

    I am not neglecting downsides I am pointing out the potential danger of allowing a melee & magic hybrid the ability to use a debuff that can trivialize a great deal pve trash. You gain the semi viable melee option, almost as much spell power as a pure, and more CC than any melee pure can dream of.
    bard can do this! so can anyone with ed ability.

    they could cc the enemy then blast them to pieces from far away. or they could cc the enemy and chop them to pieces. what is the different here? other then it take longer to chop them down and greater risk of getting killed.
    Last edited by burningwind; 10-14-2013 at 01:54 PM.

  20. #140
    Community Member Saravis's Avatar
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    I'm going to state this first since I'd rather you address this than this argument go back and forth. Can you honestly look at this PrE and think its anything but mediocre? Can you compare it to the other PrEs and think its anything but subpar? Can you honestly look at it and think you would take this on a pure arcane or even an arcane with a light splash in something else?

    If you think this PrE is good as is, then please continue with this lovely argument. However, if you think it needs improving, why are we arguing? If you think it needs improved than provide suggestions as to how to improve it. This argument is needlessly taking away from that. I'm trying to dismiss the complaints of overpowered so that we can get back to making suggestions for improving. If you think this thing is OP, then by all means continue this argument. If you think it needs improved, don't you think your wasting your time arguing possibilities? If you disagree with a suggestion provide a better one. Our time would be a lot more productive than going back and forth on this argument.

    With that out of the way back to the delightful argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Exiledtyrant View Post
    I'm going to go ahead and state the obvious. The biggest advantage of a multiple hold is the ability to make a mass of mobs unable to act. No other melee has the ability to do that let alone set up almost indefinite helplessness on multiple enemies. If multiple enemies are held you are always taking advantage of that state.
    I've already gone over that advantage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Exiledtyrant View Post
    Your argument trying to compare a melee and arcane vs 1 ek is ridiculous you can't compare two characters to one. If you get 2 specialist than the I get 2 specialist. This started with arcane vs ek and now you want to drag an entire group into it and all the countless scenarios that come with it. I'll tell you what if the Ek was in a group with an enchanment specialist or CCer they wouldn't even need to spec for CC. They could just go full no save damage. Your making the arguments about 2 entirely different things at this point. EK is more efficient in the long run than an arcane. It's one of it's flat out benefits. Pure will have slightly higher damage potential but again that is a given at higher resource cost or less utility.
    You can call it ridiculous all you want that doesn't make it any less applicable. I've made my point, an Eldritch that has to balance between melee and casting has a disadvantage regardless of the content vs. a caster and melee that can commit to their roles. If you want to call something OP you have to compare it to all possibilities. Furthermore, if you want to take CC from your Eldritch then you're no longer making your argument on the OP of mass hold on an Eldritch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Exiledtyrant View Post
    I am not neglecting downsides I am pointing out the potential danger of allowing a melee & magic hybrid the ability to use a debuff that can trivialize a great deal pve trash. You gain the semi viable melee option, almost as much spell power as a pure, and more CC than any melee pure can dream of.
    At what cost? At what cost can an Eldritch achieve as much SP as a pure? At what cost can they have a viable melee option? At what cost can they achieve the necessary DCs to capably hold and keep enemies held? You are neglecting the downsides because you aren't looking at what each advantage costs and IF they can all be achieved.

    Look all I'm trying to tell you is that an Eldritch with mass hold is no more powerful than a standard caster with mass hold or a monk with stunning fist, yes the Eldritch does have advantages, but they also have disadvantages as well.
    1. The Eldritch has to use up SP on the hold vs. a monk has easily rechargeable ki.
    2. The Eldritch can hold more enemies with a mass hold vs. a monk can only hit one enemy.
    3. Mass hold has a chance to break free every 3 seconds vs. stunning fist that lasts as long as the cooldown does.
    4. An Eldritch can damage more held enemies (so long as they use SP) vs. a monk can only hit one enemy.
    5. An Eldritch does less damage with standard melee vs. a monk with superior melee.
    6. Mass hold needs spell pen and DCs to hit vs. a monk that can achieve a higher DC easier and doesn't require spell pen.
    7. The eldritch saves SP with melee vs. a caster that has to use spells
    8. The eldritch hits for less with melee vs. a caster that hits for more with spells.
    9. The Eldritch with strike and tempest are no better than a sorcerer with SLAs.
    Did I miss anything?
    Last edited by Saravis; 10-14-2013 at 02:08 PM.

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