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  1. #61
    Community Member Saravis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by saco View Post
    Dex to dmg/hit for elves is a heavy AP sacrifice and only works with certain weapons, true the only range weapon is a longbow but you have a choice between only a select amt of melee weapons and really bow dmg is far behind melee it isn't even funny and really find that it a complete waste of AP points.

    Ninja Spy only works with a select amt of weapons.

    PDK is only a select amt of weapons.

    The same argument can be made of why Dwarves don't have their Con adjustment applied to their To Hit along with their dmg.
    Then make it a specific set of weapons that would work with charisma, I don't care. Though, please not just longsword, that would just be pathetic.

    I think you're overestimating how equally effective a caster can be with both melee and casting. To be viable at melee there are a lot of spellcasting feats that a caster would have to sacrifice and fitting them in would be tricky. Improved Critical isn't possible on a pure until level 18, that means if you want to go twf or thf line, you'd have to start at level 9. THF would require a strength of at least 13 and TWF would require a dex of at least 15. There's still power attack, cleave and great cleave, which would leave no room for any metas, focuses, or whatever else. Overwhelming crit would be impossible. Furthermore investing in Eldritch means less investment in the spellcasting trees.

    All in all this means less spell damage, less spells landing, less spell focused abilities.
    For what?
    Some extra melee damage, but how much? Nothing compared to a fighter, barb or even bard that all have better trees and abilities for melee focused toons.

    As I said, there's plenty that a melee focused caster would have to sacrifice.

    As for dwarf, I don't think that's a fair comparison. Dwarf is a race, not an enhancement, you can build a dwarf as whatever you want, they can just get extra con is all.

    Quote Originally Posted by saco View Post
    A choice should be made of either martial focus or arcane focus, not both. Anything that augments their DC for instant kills and melee is just too much.
    If you want the tree to be melee focused it needs to be improved, otherwise its just a mediocre fighter without any of the fighter bonuses at the sacrifice of effective spellcasting.

  2. #62
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Just a couple of observations and thoughts from this thread.

    Being able to use int/cha for to hit and damage with all weapons. No. Just no. This would be retardedly overpowered. Before you say it is inline with a rogue being able to use dex for to hit and damage, it's not even close. The benefit a caster gets from maxing his casting stat dwarfs the benefits a rogue gets from dex. Same reason that divines don't get wisdom for their melee mod in their melee tree.

    There are a couple of weapons that allow this, but they are sub optimal. There is your trade off.

    When you build a melee arcane, you give up spell dc's. That's just the way it is. And the way it should be.

    Also don't think the arcane barrier is as bad as people think. In fact it looks like the best ability in the tree to me.
    25% mitigation of ALL damage? Sign me up. It only requires you to go under 50% to proc it. It stays on even if you heal immediately. At least that's the way i read it. If you aren't often going under 50% health, you're not playing your arcane melee correctly.

    As far as just handing out the entire two handed fighting line for free from the enhancements, i can't see it. Paladins are feat starved, why don't they just give them all the necessary feats for free. Rangers get lots of free feats, and fighters and monks get some extra ones. Wizards get extra feats, too. They are perks of the class. The balancing factor is that they are not completely free feats, They come from a limited list.

    I'm playing a neo-tukaw build right now. The benefits of the monk and paladin splashes are primarily defensive. There is really nothing in any of my trees which specifically help me do more melee damage. Feats are tight. So having a line that adds something on this end is good.

    Could they improve it? Sure. Spell power affecting the procs would be a step in the right direction.

    That's my take on it so far.

  3. #63
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by burningwind View Post
    tell me would you play this prestige if they don't grant you ability of int/cha to hit and damage? wouldn't you rather play a bard instead? they get all the buff they want and they can cc nicely with songs~~~ why would you play a melee prestige on a arcane caster class that does poor damage, low health, low save and almost no defense at all? and most importantly no self healing..

    try to make some sense will you? when they choose this prestige they are trading their ability of casting ability to melee ability, they will need melee feat and will not be able to afford all the casting feat such as spell focus, spell penetration, metamagic which normally required to casting well. and by taking this tree they are replacing most of their casting equipment into melee/defensive equipment.

    p.s. int to hit/damage will actually benefit this game by a great amount, it will benefit everyone.. i don't see why anyone should go against it. without this it is just not viable for them to go melee.
    When bards get a spell that can melt things as fast as my Tukaw's acid rain, i will agree with you. Mind you, i have nothing against bards. I will probably try one out on my next life, though it may be as a casting spellsinger.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by burningwind View Post
    tell me would you play this prestige if they don't grant you ability of int/cha to hit and damage? wouldn't you rather play a bard instead? they get all the buff they want and they can cc nicely with songs~~~ why would you play a melee prestige on a arcane caster class that does poor damage, low health, low save and almost no defense at all? and most importantly no self healing..

    try to make some sense will you? when they choose this prestige they are trading their ability of casting ability to melee ability, they will need melee feat and will not be able to afford all the casting feat such as spell focus, spell penetration, metamagic which normally required to casting well. and by taking this tree they are replacing most of their casting equipment into melee/defensive equipment.

    p.s. int to hit/damage will actually benefit this game by a great amount, it will benefit everyone.. i don't see why anyone should go against it. without this it is just not viable for them to go melee.
    The sense comes from how Clerics and FvS don't get a Cha or Wis PrE modifier to melee weapons. How an EK can already upload some dmg casting to augment their lack in melee.

    A To Hit modifier I can see that is the equivalent to Insightful Strikes.

    Feats will hardly be an issue considering how Wizards get 5 metamagic bonus feats and there are already some melee battle clerics who have the metamagic and melee feats they need. And they are not really sacrificing gear, to some degree but not an overwhelming amount of sacrifice.

    I really thing though that they should get rid of the shield thing, replace it with an orb/1 hander combo of some kind.

    Would I play a Bard over an EK? No, because I want to play a magic user that can has a degree of martial prowess not a buffbot but that has a choice of focusing more on casting prowess or melee but is not all inclusive.

    My bets is on this class being a fun class to play leveling and in EH content but when you start getting into EE content where you need really high DCs then I reckon this PrE being suboptimal and most likely ignored. My gut feeling is that this PrE will likely have a very fine line between worthlessness or just for flavor and OPness due to the nature of Arcane spells prowess.

  5. #65
    Community Member dlsidhe's Avatar
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    Alrighty...so, I went full-strength ridiculous EK wizard.

    The result was pretty epically...strange. I mean, it works better than I expected. Way better. I need to take it into a quest to try it out, but in Legendary Dreadnaught against the target kobolds in the Dojo it was pretty nice.





    The Eldritch Tempest and Eldritch Strike were hitting for around 300-400 and 100-200, respectively. AC could be higher if I had a shield, but as it's full THF for DPS, I didn't grab that enhancement. All the doublestrike seems to work nicely.

    I didn't have Death Aura ticking, but that adds a bit of DPS from the ticks (though the save - obviously - isn't very high).

    Personally, I'd still go with using it to have an armored caster with the ability to fall back on melee than a full-on-stupid melee who happens to have a couple spells, but it works better than I thought.
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  6. #66
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by saco View Post
    My bets is on this class being a fun class to play leveling and in EH content but when you start getting into EE content where you need really high DCs then I reckon this PrE being suboptimal and most likely ignored. My gut feeling is that this PrE will likely have a very fine line between worthlessness or just for flavor and OPness due to the nature of Arcane spells prowess.
    This would put it right on par with about 90% of all non-gimmick, non 'optimized' builds in epic elite content.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saravis View Post
    Then make it a specific set of weapons that would work with charisma, I don't care. Though, please not just longsword, that would just be pathetic.

    I think you're overestimating how equally effective a caster can be with both melee and casting. To be viable at melee there are a lot of spellcasting feats that a caster would have to sacrifice and fitting them in would be tricky. Improved Critical isn't possible on a pure until level 18, that means if you want to go twf or thf line, you'd have to start at level 9. THF would require a strength of at least 13 and TWF would require a dex of at least 15. There's still power attack, cleave and great cleave, which would leave no room for any metas, focuses, or whatever else. Overwhelming crit would be impossible. Furthermore investing in Eldritch means less investment in the spellcasting trees.

    All in all this means less spell damage, less spells landing, less spell focused abilities.
    For what?
    Some extra melee damage, but how much? Nothing compared to a fighter, barb or even bard that all have better trees and abilities for melee focused toons.

    As I said, there's plenty that a melee focused caster would have to sacrifice.

    As for dwarf, I don't think that's a fair comparison. Dwarf is a race, not an enhancement, you can build a dwarf as whatever you want, they can just get extra con is all.


    If you want the tree to be melee focused it needs to be improved, otherwise its just a mediocre fighter without any of the fighter bonuses at the sacrifice of effective spellcasting.
    The reference to the dwarves is to the Throw Your Weight Around which allows Con modifier to weapon dmg to the selected weapon style. The point is that having a to-hit and dmg modifier AND and modifier to health all wrapped up in one stat is way too much. This is the exact same principle with the EK.

    Stat qualifying is ridiculously easy, just eat some tomes and *BAM* your golden. Epic Toughness and Overwhealming Critical on the other hand are a different story.

    Feat qualifying will be ridiculously easy for a Wizard since you get 5 Metamagic feats, which Battle Clerics have already done and been doing without any sort of bonus feats. And you talking bout every single melee feat which most builds I've seen on the Battle Cleric pick and chooses what they want.

    I strongly believe that the EK should be mediocre in melee but it has it's spell casting to augment this mediocrity.

    But really the EK tree looks more like a defensive melee hybrid tree though.

  8. #68
    Community Member burningwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by saco View Post
    The sense comes from how Clerics and FvS don't get a Cha or Wis PrE modifier to melee weapons. How an EK can already upload some dmg casting to augment their lack in melee.

    A To Hit modifier I can see that is the equivalent to Insightful Strikes.

    Feats will hardly be an issue considering how Wizards get 5 metamagic bonus feats and there are already some melee battle clerics who have the metamagic and melee feats they need. And they are not really sacrificing gear, to some degree but not an overwhelming amount of sacrifice.

    I really thing though that they should get rid of the shield thing, replace it with an orb/1 hander combo of some kind.

    Would I play a Bard over an EK? No, because I want to play a magic user that can has a degree of martial prowess not a buffbot but that has a choice of focusing more on casting prowess or melee but is not all inclusive.

    My bets is on this class being a fun class to play leveling and in EH content but when you start getting into EE content where you need really high DCs then I reckon this PrE being suboptimal and most likely ignored. My gut feeling is that this PrE will likely have a very fine line between worthlessness or just for flavor and OPness due to the nature of Arcane spells prowess.

    fvs are high on all save, cleric are high on fort and will. they both d8 and medium bab. they both healing capable. divine are meant to be half melee half casting, while arcane are not. (arty and bard aren't exactly arcane caster)

    Quote Originally Posted by dlsidhe View Post
    Alrighty...so, I went full-strength ridiculous EK wizard.

    The result was pretty epically...strange. I mean, it works better than I expected. Way better. I need to take it into a quest to try it out, but in Legendary Dreadnaught against the target kobolds in the Dojo it was pretty nice.





    The Eldritch Tempest and Eldritch Strike were hitting for around 300-400 and 100-200, respectively. AC could be higher if I had a shield, but as it's full THF for DPS, I didn't grab that enhancement. All the doublestrike seems to work nicely.

    I didn't have Death Aura ticking, but that adds a bit of DPS from the ticks (though the save - obviously - isn't very high).

    Personally, I'd still go with using it to have an armored caster with the ability to fall back on melee than a full-on-stupid melee who happens to have a couple spells, but it works better than I thought.
    all this tree give you is 4 strength from tenser build, and 4~16 elemental damage per hit. your damage could end up way better with any other class~~ also for a thf build that damage isn't exactly good. and unlike most of the caster melee, you do not have access to self healing..

    and your buff are no better then what bards get.. you have less health, less save~~ hope you enjoy this inferior build~~ Eldritch knight are meant to be casting viable while maintain certain degree of melee ability.. tell me can you do anything but buffing yourself??

  9. #69
    Community Member dlsidhe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by burningwind View Post
    fvs are high on all save, cleric are high on fort and will. they both d8 and medium bab. they both healing capable. divine are meant to be half melee half casting, while arcane are not. (arty and bard aren't exactly arcane caster)



    all this tree give you is 4 strength from tenser build, and 4~16 elemental damage per hit. your damage could end up way better with any other class~~ also for a thf build that damage isn't exactly good. and unlike most of the caster melee, you do not have access to self healing..

    and your buff are no better then what bards get.. you have less health, less save~~ hope you enjoy this inferior build~~ Eldritch knight are meant to be casting viable while maintain certain degree of melee ability.. tell me can you do anything but buffing yourself??
    Self healing (it is a full-on PM in lich form). Party buffs. Niacs. Eldars. Magic/Chain/Force Missiles. Four cleaves. Keep in mind that this build was thrown together in 15 minutes with no planning other than full strength. ;-)

    However, I'd never use it in reality. It was to make a point about the build not needing int/cha to melee damage.

    Though I didn't bother hunting down the 986 point crit in the combat log. I'm averaging 87-110 per swing with 37-40 on glancing blows. Not great, but not bad.
    Last edited by dlsidhe; 10-12-2013 at 10:08 PM.
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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by saco View Post
    Feat qualifying will be ridiculously easy for a Wizard since you get 5 Metamagic feats, which Battle Clerics have already done and been doing without any sort of bonus feats. And you talking bout every single melee feat which most builds I've seen on the Battle Cleric pick and chooses what they want.
    Battle clerics need what, 2 caster feats (quicken, empower healing), so they have it easy. Wizard gets extra feats, so they can spare some for melee feats too. Combines somewhat well with the melee aspect of PM forms too, I guess.

    But how about sorcerer? Wasn't this a sorcerer PRE with a surprise wizard addition. Sorcerers are feat starved already, and unless you just use the sorcerer levels for reconstruct, you need more than the 2 caster feats of battlecleric.

  11. #71
    Community Member HatsuharuZ's Avatar
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    I think that the elemental damage toggles need to be in an enhancement line by themselves, and not part of the core enhancements.

    Also, the capstone ability would make a great fourth or fifth-tier ability, but it's not that great of a capstone. Since the capstone is only available to a squishy d4 hit points sorcerer or wizard, it should be defensive in nature. I would suggest DR/ 10 something, or maybe heavy armor proficiency.

    Finally, wizards and sorcerers only have high will saves. Some stacking bonuses to fortitude and reflex saves would be a nice addition to the core abilities.

  12. #72
    Community Member burningwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dlsidhe View Post
    Self healing (it is a full-on PM in lich form). Party buffs. Niacs. Eldars. Magic/Chain/Force Missiles. Four cleaves. Keep in mind that this build was thrown together in 15 minutes with no planning other than full strength. ;-)

    However, I'd never use it in reality. It was to make a point about the build not needing int/cha to melee damage.

    Though I didn't bother hunting down the 986 point crit in the combat log. I'm averaging 87-110 per swing with 37-40 on glancing blows. Not great, but not bad.
    lich form means 2X damage from light damage, plus it is too expensive to have both pm and eldritch knight. light damaging spell are common between all cleric type enemy, while in caster mod you could finger them to death or cc them, but if you are build for melee you will not be able to have enough dc to cc nor finger them. you will have to fight up close. and that means 2~3 shot in end game content.

    niacs is reflex save dc
    Eldars require lightning spell power and maximize. if you are build for melee you will not have decent spell power. eldrith does not give any other type of spell power beside force.
    Magic/Chain/Force Missiles you really think you could make visible damage with these spell at end game content without Shiradi ed? if you go shiradi ed why bother go eldritch knight????

    party buff? like what??? rage? bard now give same benefit without penalty.... so does barb ed. haste? who don't have haste feat?? even they don't they will have gear for it, it now come together with movement speed in the new prefix. blur? who don't have perm blur at end game?? so what sort of party buff are you talking about??? i hope you don't mean great heroism, that is common and can be find perm version on equipment.

    as i said none of your damage came from eldritch knight.. am not sure what are you trying to prove here~~
    Last edited by burningwind; 10-12-2013 at 10:59 PM.

  13. #73
    Hero nibel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by burningwind View Post
    plus it is too expensive to have both pm and eldritch knight
    No, it is not. Lich Form requires 31 AP on PM tree. Eldritch Sword requires 41 AP on EK tree. You still get 8 AP left. Enough for full racial cores, or two T1 enhancements on AM. I did something similar on my AA/DWS archer.

    The funniest part of this thread is still how EK was supposed to be the second Sorcerer tree, and everyone just talks about optimizing it on a Wizard.
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  14. #74
    Community Member Syrophir's Avatar
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    Basically it's not really much of a PrE for pure casters its target is those overlooked weirdos running around with a deep melee splash with a caster class. Why this came before dragon disciple (if they ever give it to sorcs now) is because also wizard was missing a more melee oriented and 3rd PrE. The idelogy for the PrE comes from this http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20061031a, and what we see on the tree is basicaly that in its current raw form (btw all spell fail reductions ignored wf body for now) with some ddo touch on top.

    So to make a good use of this tree one has to try build a character more like a tank (read as S&B - at least seem they would get the most out of it) with selfheal (repair or negative), fire/cold shield, haste and displacement.

    Tenser is playing the part of increased BAB EK concept has merging the melee and caster but also turns into a very nice thing that some melee who could use it don't have because it works as a toggle. So for example no need for recast or fear for dispel.

    All universal spell power combined with force SP boost with some neat cleaves are on the right track though 15 sec cooldown for something you still spend sp on not sure if thats optimal. Spellsword parts of the cores seem kinda cheap but not too bad. Doublestrikes are spot on. Maybe add int/cha mod to the weapon and shield as an enchantment bonus in a way the clever strikes worked on the Epic Midnight Greetings or something? Glancing blow procs being off are not an issue because it's not Bsword/Daxe only PrE after all.

    Haven't fooled around with the build options much yet because TR is currently off limits on the server but still not sure if ever going to go full 20 caster + capstone with this tree when the other options seem much more suitable for it, at least on the wiz side. Sure there are some ways I could take advantage of few parts of the tree for a full caster but wouldn't pick this for its capstone, at least for now anyway.

    Though I might be underestimating the full caster path on this tree now because even as 2 pala 18 sorc I could get a Bladeforged testchar pretty easily over 100 PRR at lvl 28 so maybe it can be made to work.

    Oh well not going to dig into it deeper than this but as a PrE I think EK hits the spot for those fighter mages that had only the Palemaster to fool around with before I'm sure you (developers) will figure this one out eventualy.

    Keep the opinions and suggestions flowing folks!
    Last edited by Syrophir; 10-13-2013 at 12:37 AM. Reason: Proofreading and more fooling around.
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  15. #75
    Community Member burningwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    No, it is not. Lich Form requires 31 AP on PM tree. Eldritch Sword requires 41 AP on EK tree. You still get 8 AP left. Enough for full racial cores, or two T1 enhancements on AM. I did something similar on my AA/DWS archer.

    The funniest part of this thread is still how EK was supposed to be the second Sorcerer tree, and everyone just talks about optimizing it on a Wizard.
    well.. because this tree is designed for wizard not sorc... sorc is too feat starve to even consider this.. plus sorc deal way more damage with their decent sp pool. don't really see any reason for anyone to sorc this tree.. unless they are pdk..

    p.s. ok you win, but still.. only 50 hp and 2 damage are from this prestige, the rest have nothing to do with this prestige at all..

  16. #76
    Community Member Satyriasys's Avatar
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    If I had one suggestion for EK it would be to condense the spellblades into one that adds force damage (affected by sp) This would open up a few core spots from something more useful.
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  17. #77
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    To everyone claiming that changing around atk/damage is OP should check out my X Ability to Y Stat Thread it will demostarte its widely used and easily accesable for ALOT of stats.

    Now I do agree limiting it to specific weapons make sense though...Iconically Eldritch Knights use 1-Handed "Swords" in DDO the only Sword-like weapons we have are Longswords, Shortswords, Scimitars and Bastard Swords...so limiting it to those would make sense.

    Here's what I'm thinking for an overall improved tree for both single-class builds and multi-classes.

    Core 1 Eldritch Strike (gets better with each core) +0.5 USP and +1 Force Power per pt spent
    Core 3 Cha or Int Atk/DMG (multi-selector to try avoiding bugs of only one working),+10 Force SP
    Core 6 Spellsword(choosing element works like Elemental Weapons or Resist Energy),+10 Force SP
    Core 12 Tensers Toggle, +10 Force SP
    Core 18 Heavy Armor Prof & Tower Shield Prof, +10 Force SP
    Core 20 Immunity to ASF, +25 Force SP, +2 Int or Cha

    Tier 1

    - Improved Mage Armor OR Light/Medium Armor Prof and ASF Reduction
    - Item Defense: 25%/50%/75% to negate item wear
    - Toughness: 5/10/15 HP
    - Battlemage: +1/2/3 Concen/Intim/Balance



    Tier 2

    - Improved Shield OR General Shield Proficiency and ASF Reduction
    - TWF, THF, Shield Mastery or Eldritch Combatant (bonus when using 1-handed weapon and wizard orb) multi-selector choose one
    - Martial Weapon Prof & 3/6/10% Doublestrike
    - Wand and Scroll Mastery +25/50/75% & +1/2/3 DC

    Tier 3

    - +1 Any Stat
    - Improved Battle Mage (Feats treat you as if you were an equal level fighter and have full BAB for the purpose of pre-reqs)
    - Eldritch Barrier (SLA similar to Arty's Radiant Force Shield...cooldown 12min/6min/3min seconds duration 30 seconds + 6 seconds per level...Metas: Quicken & Extend)

    Tier 4

    - ITWF, ITHF, Improved Shield Mastery or Improved Eldritch Combatant (multi-selector choose one)
    - + 1 Any Stats
    - Force Feedback (5/10/15% chance to do Force damage on-hit w/ knockdown effect)
    - Still Spell (-5/10/15% Spell Failure)

    Tier 5

    - GTWF, GTHF, Improved Shield Bash or Perfect Eldritch Combatant (multi-selector choose one)
    - Master Battlemage (Doubles the effectiveness of the Extend Metamagic...requires Extend)
    - Improved Tenser's Toggle (reduces penalties and increase benefits)
    - Eldritch Tempest

    Not really sure what to do with the Eldritch Combatant but following other prestige classes would work.

    Maybe something like this

    EC: +X to enhancement bonus for the Wizard Orb and your 1-handed weapon
    IEC: +1 to Crit range, Any 1-handed weapon is treated as a implement
    PEC: Allow Spellpower to apply to your weapon effects.

    X= no idea, any suggestions...maybe 1/4 character level?
    Last edited by Failedlegend; 10-13-2013 at 02:51 AM.
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  18. #78
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    where are people getting this idea that ED will have poor damage? Acid main and force off nets you plenty of high base spell damage with only 3 save based spells acid blast which you'll never use, acid rain which only gets saved on first tick, and meteor swarm who's force damage portion can't be saved against.

    My it extremely easy to net yourself around 300-350ish constant spell power. It is also extremely easy to get a 25-30% spell critical rating. With no spell power items and quality 1-3 enhancement gear my spells were criting 300-700 a hit each. You add up a normal rotation 3-4 dot's or 3-4 force blasts and that ends up being thousands of extra damage in between your melee attacks. My melee damage in between my hits deals hundreds of damage with only dual wield coronations(a level 14 weapon). is it 1 thousand a hit? no but then again my dots are doing a combined 1500-3000+ every 2 seconds so i guess that's helps to even out the melee damage in between.

    The only thing you give up on a melee caster is crowd control. There are plenty of no save high damage options if you build for them. There are even ways to have no save melee CC if you want it. Ear smash upgraded to knockout smash makes an irresistible psudeo stunning blow. Works on any monster types orange or below and allows 4 - 6 seconds of helpless damage even if they wake up. On vorpal you should get even more up time due to it being an actual stun. Now we had the ED prone attack too. The only real difference between wizard ED and Sorc ED will be HP and self healing ability. Wiz get alot of defensive goodies from PM + more feats but Sorcerers will no doubt have better spell damage.


    No saves mean no high cha so even if they never implement int/cha to damage you should still get a good str base. THF can get over whelming critical easy as they don't need a tome. TWF would need to tome str as their level up ability points need to b split between str and dex. if you had a +5 tome you could completely dump cha on a human. 13 base can hit 19 cha for level 9 spells with only +6 enhancement gear and you could cast up to +7 as soon as you hit level two spells or just pot an eagle buff. even if you didn't get overwhelming critical you would only be 1x crit multi behind melee but you would have access to all your spell damage anyway.


    Force of personality, maximize, empower are the only caster feats I see being a necessity. that gives you 5 if your human power attack, two weapon fighting, improved two weapon fighting, improved crit, two weapon defense or power attack, two handed fighting, improved two handed fighting, improved crit, cleave. If you splash because you want a less spell oriented EK than feat restrictions go away completely.

    Defensively the asf enhancements have gone a long way in making it possible for caster to use named heavy armor instead of being stuck in crafted greater twilight gear. Now with 4 cores from EK( 12 level investment), a 15% spell blue and 2 points in the 5/10/15% asf enhancement you can wear any named armor you want. SPlash any heavy armor class and you get the PRR to go with it. If not just do it the old way. craft a heavy armor with -20% asf use a 15% blue and splash a heavy armor class. Much more wiggle room now with 35% asf floating around the EK tree.

    to go even further as the tree is now a 16 sorc/2 ranger/ 2 fighter split would free up a lot of feat for two weapon fighting and add more defensive options.

    feats would be freed up to force of personality, power attack, two weapon fighting, improved two weapon fighting, maximize, empower, extend, two weapon defense, improved critical, greater two weapon fighting, mental toughness( to make up for some of the sp lost during the splash). So at level 20 not only would you be wearing an armor capable of pushing into the 70-80 ac range but under tensers bab (26 heavy armor at 20 or 34 at epic bab at level 28), 10 prr from ranger tree, 10 from EK, 10 from a blue prr gem(16 if you can afford) and 5 from two defense you manage an easy 61 PRR at 20 netting you a 30%+ physical damage reduction. With best in slot at 28 utilizing ED prr and epic prr feat that's pushing you into the 75+ range.

    Health should be around 650 at 28 with no tomes and average gear and around 710 ish with no tomes and good gear ( all your excpetional con etc) and 760+ with tomes. Be higher on a wizard with PM help but they would be 50-75 spell power behind a sorcerer.

    There are a lot of good splashes that could open up for EK for two weapon fighting and two handed fighting. A barb splash for instance can gain you much more prr, health, temp hp and some reliable melee CC. A few tweaks along side making the capstone stronger for a pure and EK looks like it will bring some really fun builds.
    Last edited by Exiledtyrant; 10-13-2013 at 05:29 AM.

  19. #79
    Community Member Wizza's Avatar
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    Really, this just won't work for Sorcerers.

    This is no good. Wizards can make it work with their gajillion feats. Sorcerers won't.

    You either go full ****** melee or full ****** caster on a Sorcerer. There is no way in the heavens that you are able to do both with EK.

    1 PA
    3 Cleave
    6 Great Cleave
    9 IC
    12 Extend
    15 THF
    18 ITHF
    21 GTHF
    24 Stunning Blow
    27 OC

    You'd still have to fit: Maximize, Empower, whatever else that doesn't come to mind right now. Just no. You can't even fit Epic Toughness which this class may need if going for melee.

    However, going full ****** melee will result in a melee that doesn't even come close to the dps of a Paladin nor a Bard. The tree doesn't offer anything beside a couple of clickies.

    It has no offensive things, no damage boosting enhancement. They gave us Critical damage and accuracy, seriously? Replace these two, suggestions below.
    It has no defensive things besides 10 PRR, no DR, no dodge, no perma blur or anything.
    Too many -ASF bonus.

    It is not thought out.


    What this tree needs to change:

    - Mage armor and shield fused into a T1 multi-selector. Mage armor would give 2/4/6% dodge instead of the AC bonus
    - Replace the now free T2 slot (the first in the row) with a new enhancement:

    Eldritch Knight Accuracy: Your EK gains +3/6/10 to hit with Two Handed Weapons

    - Replace Arcane Barrier with a new enhancement:

    Eldritch Knight Damage (Eldritch Knight Accuracy as pre-req): Your EK gains +2/4/6 damage with Two Handed Weapons

    - Shield Training: Proficiency with Tower Shields and -15% ASF from shields
    - Fuse Doublestrike with Martial Training and move it to T4, instead of Shield Bash: +1/2/5 Doublestrike with all Martial Weapons
    - Instead of Martial Training, put in Force Blade:

    On hit: 1d4/1d6/1d8 Force damage.

    - Critical accuracy and Critical damage gone. Two new enhancements:

    Eldritch Knight Strike [Cooldown: 10 seconds; SP to activate: 10]: Melee Force Attack: You strike with 1/2/3[W]. On a Natural 20/19/18, you deal 100 Force damage and make the enemy prone (not helpless thou) for 1 second.

    Eldritch Knight Training [Requires EK Strike]: When your EK Strike hit, it grants you a 1d4 Force damage on hit that lasts 20 seconds.

    - Replace Eldritch Shield with a new enhancement:

    Force Guard: When you are hit in melee in combat, you deal 1d4/1d8/1d12 Force Damage to the attacker.

    - Replace the now gone Doublestrike with:

    Eldritch Knight Specialization [Requires Force Guard]: You gain a +1 Competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier with every Two Handed Weapon.

    - Replace Still Spell with a new enhancement:

    Heavy Armor Proficiency



    Now, everything laid out:


    T1:

    - Mage armor and shield fused into a T1 multi-selector. Mage armor would give 2/4/6% dodge instead of the AC bonus
    - Toughness
    - Item Defense
    - Battlemage


    T2:

    - Eldritch Knight Accuracy: Your EK gains +3/6/10 to hit with Two Handed Weapons
    - Shield Training: Proficiency with Tower Shields and -15% ASF from shields
    - Light Armor Proficiency: Prof in Light armor and -15% ASF from Light Armor
    - Force Blade: On hit: 1d4/1d6/1d8 Force damage.
    - Wand and Scroll Mastery, 1 AP each: 25/50/75% effectiveness


    T3:

    - Eldritch Knight Damage [Requires Eldritch Knight Accuracy]: Your EK gains +2/4/6 damage with Two Handed Weapons
    - Elemental Resistance: +2/4/6 Acid, Cold, Elec, Fire, Sonic resistance
    - Eldritch Knight Strike [Cooldown: 10 seconds; SP to activate: 10]: Melee Force Attack: You strike with 1/2/3[W]. On a Natural 20/19/18, you deal 100 Force damage and make the enemy prone (not helpless thou) for 1 second.
    - +1 STR/DEX/CHA


    T4:

    - Martial Training: +1/2/5% Doublestrike with all Martial Weapons
    - Medium Armor Proficiency: same as Light one, -15% ASF with Medium Armors
    - Eldritch Knight Training [Requires EK Strike]: When your EK Strike hit, it grants you a 1d4 Force damage on hit that lasts 10 seconds.
    - +1 STR/DEX/CHA


    T5:

    - Tenser's Trasformation [Requires Eldritch Knight Damage]: Toggle of the spell.
    - Heavy Armor Proficiency: same as Light one, -15% ASF with Heavy Armors
    - Force Guard: When you are hit in melee in combat, you deal 1d4/1d8/1d12 Force Damage to the attacker.
    - Eldritch Knight Specialization [Requires Force Guard]: You gain a +1 Competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier with every Two Handed Weapon.
    - Eldritch Tempest: 50 sp to activate. Perform a spinning melee attack, dealing weapon damage +2W to all nearby enemies and knocking them prone for one second. If any foes are struck by Eldritch Tempest, your weapon also releases an explosion of magical force, dealing 1d6 Force damage per character level to all nearby enemies. Affected by Spell power.



    In red, every single new enhancements and the fusion/changes to the enhancements that we have now.


    Core:

    - Eldritch Tempest. This core and the following ones will grant you +1 damage.
    - Multi Selector: Spellsword Frost/Shock/Flame/Acid. +1 damage, +10 Force SP
    - Knight Dodge:On hit: Up to once every 2 seconds, you gain +1% dodge for 6 seconds. This effect can stack up to 10 times. +1 damage, +10 Force SP
    - Action boost: You gain a Knightly +8 bonus to STR for 60 seconds. Passive: +1 damage, +10 Force SP.
    - Eldritch Blade: Permanent +10% damage, +25 Spell power. Passive +1 damage, +10 Force SP
    Last edited by Wizza; 10-13-2013 at 05:59 AM.
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  20. #80
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    all you need to do is splash fighter and the feats are covered. you shouldn't be focusing on dc casting or tactical feats as a hybrid to begin with. As I already stated if you really had to have a melee tactical you can get knockout smash from barb which also offers a lot of prr and ac and temp hp at little cost.

    any fighter splash or human can have a damage action boost at 1-4 ap.

    it is only slightly harder for a sorc to budget the feats in but they get higher damage potential as a trade off. All they really need to do is boost the cores and the capstone for pures and it should be a solid tree.

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