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  1. #41
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    Cool. It would still be a 5% chance to miss at level, like my 40 AC.
    Feel free to work out a formula of how that makes sense, but my AC procs ALOT more than 5% its more like 20ish% the devs changed AC to make a wider range of ACs useful...did you miss the change?


    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    Never said it doesn't fit its theme. But we are playing DDO here, not PnP. It is no flavor PrC. It needs to be worth something. It needs to have something worthy. Read this thread. You will notice that it does not do it. It has useless cores, useless AC bonus, THOUSANDS of -ASF enhancements, THOUSANDS of shields bonus, a capstone that lasts 30 seconds for a measly 10% damage.

    A LOT of work, yes.
    I never said it didn't need work (actually I specifically said it did) I'm just saying I love the FEEL of the EK Tree and I don't want it to lose that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    Honestly, you really don't get it, do you? This was the whole point of the enhancement pass.
    Huh....to make Arcane Archer makes TWF better?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    But let's not whine too much. I can get my WSM and 15 HP
    Again, how its affects your Savant is irrelevant.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  2. #42
    Community Member dlsidhe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    My PM Wiz18/Rogue2 has 68 AC and I could easily make 80 if I wasn't still wearing Lvl 12 armor and other equipment (the rogue levels do little to increase my AC so I doubt being a single Class Wiz would change anything).
    Just for experimentation, I built a pure 20 first life wizard using EK - I was able to get a sustainable AC around 79 in mithral full plate and a Fanion with PRR around 40. I focused on casting, so my melee wasn't that great (though better than expected - the arcane strike and tempest are a pleasant boost), but it felt akin to playing as an evoker FvS - cast a DOT and turtle up. I went heavy into PM for the self-healing and the constitution buff from lich form (ended up with around 550HP - no con tomes or vitality/false life items). I wouldn't call it "ready for EE" - better gear would help with that - but it was really, really fun.
    Last edited by dlsidhe; 10-12-2013 at 02:57 PM. Reason: OCD about spelling/grammar
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  3. #43
    Community Member Wizza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    Feel free to work out a formula of how that makes sense, but my AC procs ALOT more than 5% its more like 20ish% the devs changed AC to make a wider range of ACs useful...did you miss the change?
    Yup. 80 AC = 20% chance miss. Okay.


    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    I never said it didn't need work (actually I specifically said it did) I'm just saying I love the FEEL of the EK Tree and I don't want it to lose that.
    And we all care about the feel...AFTER having checked its usefulness.


    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    Huh....to make Arcane Archer makes TWF better?
    Nop but to give small niche benefits to the character in its whole. Kinda like WSM and Toughness do for Sorcerers but could have been better (and worse). Again, not really complaining, just pointing out that EK should have more PRR/Dodge/AC/DR in its lower tiers that first benefits EK and then could benefit the Sorcerer as whole class.

    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    Again, how its affects your Savant is irrelevant.
    It is. And it is to me. Feel free to ignore me if you don't like how I talk about my char/class when it gets a second PrC.
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    Reroll.

  4. #44
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    It is. And it is to me. Feel free to ignore me if you don't like how I talk about my char/class when it gets a second PrC.
    This thread is about EK not Savants...thus according to you that is off-topic (see your thread about AoTS when I mentioned dragon Disciple)

    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    Yup. 80 AC = 20% chance miss. Okay.
    Ok seriously until you give me an actual formula that proves this I'm going off my experience.

    Anyways getting back on topic I've gone through the whole thread and a few other threads talking about EK and here's the suggestions that I think can help make it both a better tree and more single-class friendly

    1. Cha or Int to attack/damage (multi-selector)
    2. Merge the Armor Prof+ASF Reduction (add heavy prof) with the improved Mage armor...select one of the two
    3. sames as above for the shield prof+ASF and improved shield spell
    4. Merge the spellsword core enhancements into a single core at either Lvl 3 or 6 sorc/wiz
    5. Use the empty 3 core to grant the TWF, THF or S&B Line (SM, ISM, ISB) multi-selectors (due to BAB issues in gaining these feats)
    6. As a 4th option to #5 idea, add a line that focuses on 1-Handed Weapons + Wizards Orbs unique to EKs its incredibly fitting to the PrC and suits the force mage feel as well.
    7. Change any time the tree says 0 to 1...possibility of doing 0 damage with your ability on a failed save is dumb.
    8. Lower the cooldowns for the various abilities especially the capstone
    9. Add the ability for your Wiz/Fighter considered a Fighter for Feat pre-reqs.
    11. Change Eldritch shield to a passive effect that works like a "Force Guard" effect
    12. Move Tenser Toggle to Tier 4 than add "Improved Tenser's" to tier 5 removing or reducing the various penalties and increasing some of the benefits.
    13. Drop elemental shield Wizards and Sorcs both have resist energy +6 resist is pointless
    14. With the extra room made from merging/dropping alot of the enhancements fit in some swiftblade abilities namely the auto-blur and the permanent/non-dispelable haste (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327)
    15. Allow the various force attacks be affected by spellpower
    16. Allow spellpower to effect weapon effects as a Tier 5 ability (replacing 3% double strike)
    Last edited by Failedlegend; 10-12-2013 at 03:35 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  5. #45
    Community Member burningwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    My PM Wiz18/Rogue2 has 68 AC and I could easily make 80 if I wasn't still wearing Lvl 12 armor and other equipment (the rogue levels do little to increase my AC so I doubt being a single Class Wiz would change anything).
    hmm how do you get 68 ac on a pm???

    ok as you were saying you are weraing levle 12 armor, so i give you max 12 armor bonus from armor. (doubt you be mad to wear heavy/medium armor)

    your dex shouldn't be too high..and usually cap by your armor, lets say 26dex so 8 bonus ac from dex mod

    ok..your ac list here

    base 10
    armor 12
    dex 8
    shield 4 (assuming you using shield spell)
    natural 8 (assuming you have best gear)
    deflection 8 (assuming you have best gear)
    inight 4 (assuming you have best gear)
    size 1(assuming you are halfling)
    total: 55.. please explain how you acquire the extra 13 armor. no shield in game can give you 13 extra armor..unless you are using end game tower shield..

    p.s. sure you could get ac from ed, though i doubt many wiz have enough dc to spend their fate point else where... also with this full load of tank gear do you still have decent casting ability? rather doubtful..

  6. #46
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Anyone else feel like this was designed by the same people that brought out protection? Some ok idea's but the overall whole a useless mash up of ideas and concepts that don't work in ddo because of the all or nothing design principle that is used for hp, ac, saves, and dc's? I've been looking at this tree and while there is some stuff that might be nice for a tiny splash into the tree for, someone spending the majority of their points in this tree seems like a newb trap on how to make a gimp.

  7. #47
    Community Member Wizza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Anyone else feel like this was designed by the same people that brought out protection? Some ok idea's but the overall whole a useless mash up of ideas and concepts that don't work in ddo because of the all or nothing design principle that is used for hp, ac, saves, and dc's? I've been looking at this tree and while there is some stuff that might be nice for a tiny splash into the tree for, someone spending the majority of their points in this tree seems like a newb trap on how to make a gimp.
    Haven't really checked Protection but it sure as hell this looks like rushed and not considered much.

    When you think that they didn't even know which PrC we would get even after Shadowfell, this teory looks just right.

    It needs serious work and I'd like a Dev to chime in like..now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rys View Post
    Severlin and Severlin Online. PLAY FOR FREE* NOW!

    *maybe
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    Reroll.

  8. #48
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    @Burningwind: Your Dex assumption is low (32 is a better low end assumption), you don't have tensers or combat expertise either

    So

    base 10
    armor 12
    dex 10
    shield 4 (assuming you using shield spell)
    natural 8 (assuming you have best gear)
    deflection 8 (assuming you have best gear)
    inight 4 (assuming you have best gear)
    size 1(assuming you are halfling)
    total: 62

    +10% from CE = approx 68

    Thats not even including a shield
    Last edited by Failedlegend; 10-12-2013 at 04:14 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  9. #49
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    approx 70

    Thats not even including a shield
    Random ee trash mob rolls a 2: hit

  10. #50
    Community Member Dawnsfire's Avatar
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    Default Interesting tree

    I can see how this tree benefits a sorc or wiz that splashes into a melee class. I can also see how it could help a mainly sorc or wiz with a melee splash (2-4 lvls). What I cannot see is how a pure sorc or wiz could use this as a primary tree and not be totally gimp. Perhaps it is a failure of imagination on my part

    I agree with most here that at the very least cha/int to hit/damage needs to be added somewhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Torc View Post
    I’m only nerfing you now so I can buff you later.

  11. #51
    Community Member dlsidhe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dawnsfire View Post
    I can see how this tree benefits a sorc or wiz that splashes into a melee class. I can also see how it could help a mainly sorc or wiz with a melee splash (2-4 lvls). What I cannot see is how a pure sorc or wiz could use this as a primary tree and not be totally gimp. Perhaps it is a failure of imagination on my part

    I agree with most here that at the very least cha/int to hit/damage needs to be added somewhere.
    I disagree, because it would go directly to OP at that point; even artificers can't have both at the same time due to the restrictions on weapon enchantments. I'm fully expecting a bunch of PDK EKs to use the CHA to hit/damage with swords, but they'll be feat-starved for combat, and will still need 13 str to qualify for PA.

    On the other hand, with any race, if you focus on buffs and no-save spells (which, by chance, tend to be force spells or DOTs, both of which favor the build), then you can have minimal INT/CHA, go full strength, and whip around a two handed weapon, or go sword-n-board to be a DOT tank.

    I'm withholding judgement, though, until the tree is fixed for sorcs - when several enhancements in the sorc version require wizard levels, I can't judge. On a PM/EK, it has nice symbiosis with the whole self-healing death aura/lich form PRR. I'm thinking that there's something that can be done with an EK/ES sorc, but there's no way to tell until that tree works.
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  12. #52
    Community Member burningwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    @Burningwind: Your Dex assumption is low (32 is a better low end assumption), you don't have tensers or combat expertise either

    So

    base 10
    armor 12
    dex 10
    shield 4 (assuming you using shield spell)
    natural 8 (assuming you have best gear)
    deflection 8 (assuming you have best gear)
    inight 4 (assuming you have best gear)
    size 1(assuming you are halfling)
    total: 62

    +10% from CE = approx 68

    Thats not even including a shield
    do you find level 12 armor with 12 ac and max 8 dex? if he/she is not wearing armor then the max armor bonus is around 9. unless choosen the epic mage armor feat. combat expertise increase the spell cool down by three times.. am not sure how many wizard would use that...

    p.s. do you take ce on a wizard? really? tanking wizard? serious with all these ac gear, plus health gear, plus dodge gear.. how many slot do you have left for your spell power, spell dc and spell lore?

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saravis View Post
    int/cha damage AND hit mod is a must.
    Monchers have to diviate their stats, this should be the exact same case for Eldritch Knight. You either chose to have higher melee capability or spell prowess, not both.

    I am a fan of Eldritch Knights, looks like I'll finally lvl a magic user however I'm dubious on the practicality of an Eldritch Knight though. Sure might be fun lvling but at endgame when people want high DC and effective CC then I seriously wonder bout the usefulness of a mage warrior type.

    Really I wish Turbine will start creating some new completed classes. Like Warlock, Warlords, Elemental Archers or just a real Archer dedicated class, Blackguard. Sure some can be viewed as a PrE tree only but I would like to see an expansion on the classes like Warlock and Warlord at a minimum which I'm sure there can be a a lot of classes that can be added.

  14. #54
    Community Member burningwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by saco View Post
    Monchers have to diviate their stats, this should be the exact same case for Eldritch Knight. You either chose to have higher melee capability or spell prowess, not both.

    I am a fan of Eldritch Knights, looks like I'll finally lvl a magic user however I'm dubious on the practicality of an Eldritch Knight though. Sure might be fun lvling but at endgame when people want high DC and effective CC then I seriously wonder bout the usefulness of a mage warrior type.

    Really I wish Turbine will start creating some new completed classes. Like Warlock, Warlords, Elemental Archers or just a real Archer dedicated class, Blackguard. Sure some can be viewed as a PrE tree only but I would like to see an expansion on the classes like Warlock and Warlord at a minimum which I'm sure there can be a a lot of classes that can be added.
    yea and why do you even bother with wizard? if you don't focus all on your prime stats and spend most of your feat on casting ability. none of your cc will work.. without cc and instant kill you are way inferior to a bard.


    Quote Originally Posted by dlsidhe View Post
    I disagree, because it would go directly to OP at that point; even artificers can't have both at the same time due to the restrictions on weapon enchantments. I'm fully expecting a bunch of PDK EKs to use the CHA to hit/damage with swords, but they'll be feat-starved for combat, and will still need 13 str to qualify for PA.

    On the other hand, with any race, if you focus on buffs and no-save spells (which, by chance, tend to be force spells or DOTs, both of which favor the build), then you can have minimal INT/CHA, go full strength, and whip around a two handed weapon, or go sword-n-board to be a DOT tank.

    I'm withholding judgement, though, until the tree is fixed for sorcs - when several enhancements in the sorc version require wizard levels, I can't judge. On a PM/EK, it has nice symbiosis with the whole self-healing death aura/lich form PRR. I'm thinking that there's something that can be done with an EK/ES sorc, but there's no way to tell until that tree works.
    arty do trap, arty do long range damage. arty self heal.. arty have a pet dog for free(and can use equipment)

    wizard without dc is useless.. you are better off with a bard if your don't have dc. at least their song will land most of the time even without much of charsima

    p.s. if you can make thie pre do as much damage as arty do, then am fine with two stats. though i doubt you can do even 1/3 of the damage with current situation.
    Last edited by burningwind; 10-12-2013 at 04:57 PM.

  15. #55
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by burningwind View Post
    yea and why do you even bother with wizard? if you don't focus all on your prime stats and spend most of your feat on casting ability. none of your cc will work.. without cc and instant kill you are way inferior to a bard.




    arty do trap, arty do long range damage. arty self heal.. arty have a pet dog for free(and can use equipment)

    wizard without dc is useless.. you are better off with a bard if your don't have dc. at least their song will land most of the time even without much of charsima

    p.s. if you can make thie pre do as much damage as arty do, then am fine with two stats. though i doubt you can do even 1/3 of the damage with current situation.
    You forgot arti's use the same stat for damage, reflex saves, dc's, skill points, spellcraft, repair, and spell points.

  16. #56
    Community Member Saravis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by saco View Post
    Monchers have to diviate their stats, this should be the exact same case for Eldritch Knight. You either chose to have higher melee capability or spell prowess, not both.
    I disagree, there is plenty that a feat starved, low bab, charisma based melee Sorc would have to sacrifice to be decent at melee.

    Besides its not as if stats to damage/hit other than strength is unusual anymore. Dex to damage/hit in Elf, Dex to damage/hit in Ninja Spy, Char to damage/hit in PDK, Int to damage in Arti to name what I can think of off the top of my head.

  17. #57
    Community Member dlsidhe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by burningwind View Post
    arty do trap, arty do long range damage. arty self heal.. arty have a pet dog for free(and can use equipment)

    wizard without dc is useless.. you are better off with a bard if your don't have dc. at least their song will land most of the time even without much of charsima

    p.s. if you can make thie pre do as much damage as arty do, then am fine with two stats. though i doubt you can do even 1/3 of the damage with current situation.
    I'll see what I can cobble together.
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  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saravis View Post
    I disagree, there is plenty that a feat starved, low bab, charisma based melee Sorc would have to sacrifice to be decent at melee.

    Besides its not as if stats to damage/hit other than strength is unusual anymore. Dex to damage/hit in Elf, Dex to damage/hit in Ninja Spy, Char to damage/hit in PDK, Int to damage in Arti to name what I can think of off the top of my head.
    Dex to dmg/hit for elves is a heavy AP sacrifice and only works with certain weapons, true the only range weapon is a longbow but you have a choice between only a select amt of melee weapons and really bow dmg is far behind melee it isn't even funny and really find that it a complete waste of AP points.

    Ninja Spy only works with a select amt of weapons.

    PDK is only a select amt of weapons.

    The same argument can be made of why Dwarves don't have their Con adjustment applied to their To Hit along with their dmg.

    And we're forgetting that a Wiz and Sorc have at their disposal all the spells and CC already. Arti spells have a very limited spell selection that is nowhere near the prowess of a Sorc or Wiz selection. Having stats that affect both their spell arsenal and their melee prowess is just OP. A choice should be made of either martial focus or arcane focus, not both. Anything that augments their DC for instant kills and melee is just too much.

  19. #59
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    I think this tree might lead to some new builds.

    For example, fighter8/monk6/wiz2 for the first couple of tiers of EK with a couple of level 1 buffs, with 4 levels to spare, probably best used for more fig or monk. I can imagine many other melee builds splashing /2-3 wiz for the first couple of tiers goodness, and the anti-magicmissile SLA.

    Now, a sorcerer using this tree, I have a hard time imagining that. Caster sorcs will probably grab a couple of points for force, defs and scroll mastery, but other than that, I just don't see it.

    On its current form, it's hard to think of any serious builds going deep to the tree, even TUCAW style builds are probably better off with something else. Some nice bonuses for the first 10-15 points, beyond that, nobody will bother.

  20. #60
    Community Member burningwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by saco View Post
    Dex to dmg/hit for elves is a heavy AP sacrifice and only works with certain weapons, true the only range weapon is a longbow but you have a choice between only a select amt of melee weapons and really bow dmg is far behind melee it isn't even funny and really find that it a complete waste of AP points.

    Ninja Spy only works with a select amt of weapons.

    PDK is only a select amt of weapons.

    The same argument can be made of why Dwarves don't have their Con adjustment applied to their To Hit along with their dmg.

    And we're forgetting that a Wiz and Sorc have at their disposal all the spells and CC already. Arti spells have a very limited spell selection that is nowhere near the prowess of a Sorc or Wiz selection. Having stats that affect both their spell arsenal and their melee prowess is just OP. A choice should be made of either martial focus or arcane focus, not both. Anything that augments their DC for instant kills and melee is just too much.
    tell me would you play this prestige if they don't grant you ability of int/cha to hit and damage? wouldn't you rather play a bard instead? they get all the buff they want and they can cc nicely with songs~~~ why would you play a melee prestige on a arcane caster class that does poor damage, low health, low save and almost no defense at all? and most importantly no self healing..

    try to make some sense will you? when they choose this prestige they are trading their ability of casting ability to melee ability, they will need melee feat and will not be able to afford all the casting feat such as spell focus, spell penetration, metamagic which normally required to casting well. and by taking this tree they are replacing most of their casting equipment into melee/defensive equipment.

    p.s. int to hit/damage will actually benefit this game by a great amount, it will benefit everyone.. i don't see why anyone should go against it. without this it is just not viable for them to go melee.

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