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  1. #21
    Community Member Wizza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exiledtyrant View Post
    I think the tree is was very fun to play around with. I would like to see the core merged a bit though. I don't think we need 4 cores that all do the same thing. Just make it a multi use core for whatever element you want to use.

    Going to bug report that shield SLA doesn't work and that during your copy paste you must have skipped over the sorc reqs. All the ASF and armor profs are wizard only as well as Tensers toggle and arcane barrier. I really hope that was just an oversight.
    Already bugged reported.

    Honestly, I can't see how you are having fun with it. There are exactly 2 clickies in this tree: Tempest and Strike. Rest is ONE toggle and Tensers.

    It's not very fun. There is a lot missing:

    1) Cha/int to dmg-to hit
    2) Mage armor should give DR and not AC
    3) Capstone should either last 120 seconds or be just made permanent. Consider upping the damage to 15 or even 20% if you decide to go for 120 seconds. Force SP needs to be 20 or 25 also.
    4) The garbage cores should either be all active at once (which I suggested and I'd love to see) or re-worked completely from scratch.
    5) All these shields things and no THF bonuses (they gave us 2 cleave attacks and yet they force us to take shields?)
    6) Eldritch shield useless (forcing to take a shield AND giving useless temporary HP. The apotheosys of the useless enhancement)
    7) Eldritch tempest should cost less SP
    8) Arcane Barrier shouldn't be a pre-req for Tenser. Noone is going to take this.
    9) Eldritch Tempest should give enemy a Helpless status for 1 second, no save, making it for an awesome combo Tempest-Strike/Cleave/Great Cleave/Whatever
    10) The garbage cores should either be all active at once (which I suggested and I'd love to see) or re-worked completely from scratch
    11) The garbage cores should either be all active at once (which I suggested and I'd love to see) or re-worked completely from scratch.
    12) The garbage cores should either be all active at once (which I suggested and I'd love to see) or re-worked completely from scratch.
    13) They could add a free THF line in the cores (IN ADDITION TO CHANGING THE SPELLSWORDS). It will be hard to fit the whole THF line + IC + Cleave + GC + everything else on a Sorc/Wiz with their **** BAB. OR, as sephiroth suggested in another thread:

    I'd say that there should be a line of enhancements going up from, say, tier 2 to tier 4, multi-selector, costing 2 AP each, wherein you select TWF, THF or S&B and are granted TWF/THF/Shield Mastery at the first tier, ITWF/ITHF/ISM at the second, and GTWF/GTHF/Improved Shield Bash at the third. The TWF line would require the same Dex requirements that the feats do (15/15/17), ditto for the THF line regarding Str
    When I'll see about half of these changes done, I will consider this a good tree. Otherwise, weak.
    Last edited by Wizza; 10-12-2013 at 09:56 AM.
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  2. #22
    Community Member Deathdefy's Avatar
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    Can you take the wand stuff out of Archmage and replace it with a secondary SLA line now please?
    Wizards don't need two enhancement trees with non-stacking identical bonuses to do with wands.

    Re: Eldritch Knight -
    I honestly just don't know enough about requirements for melee builds in aspects like PRR and AC and Shields and One-Hander damage output and the like. I like the direction though. I'd be tempted to splash for the armour and shield benefits even on a non-melee-ever caster.
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  3. #23
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    Do these shield bonuses work with Orbs in offhand instead?


    Quote Originally Posted by Deathdefy View Post
    Can you take the wand stuff out of Archmage and replace it with a secondary SLA line now please?
    Wizards don't need two enhancement trees with non-stacking identical bonuses to do with wands.
    Or can you just remove wand enhancements completely until you can make them cast from char level?

  4. #24
    Community Member HatsuharuZ's Avatar
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    I think that the wand/scroll mastery was for sorcerers, fellow forumites.

    Also, temp HP isn't useless if it procs every 6 seconds.

  5. #25
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    Already bugged reported.

    Honestly, I can't see how you are having fun with it. There are exactly 2 clickies in this tree: Tempest and Strike. Rest is ONE toggle and Tensers.

    It's not very fun. There is a lot missing:

    1) Cha/int to dmg-to hit
    3) Capstone should either last 120 seconds or be just made permanent. Consider upping the damage to 15 or even 20% if you decide to go for 120 seconds. Force SP needs to be 20 or 25 also.
    5) All these shields things and no THF bonuses (they gave us 2 cleave attacks and yet they force us to take shields?)
    7) Eldritch shield useless (forcing to take a shield AND giving useless temporary HP. The apotheosys of the useless enhancement)
    8) Eldritch tempest should cost less SP
    9) Arcane Barrier shouldn't be a pre-req for Tenser. Noone is going to take this.
    10) Eldritch Tempest should give enemy a Helpless status for 1 second, no save, making it for an awesome combo Tempest-Strike/Cleave/Great Cleave/Whatever
    Agree with all of this especially #1

    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    2) Mage armor should give DR and not AC
    Why its Mage ARMOR...armor gives PRR and AC. What they should do is merge this and improved shield with the armor and shild proficiences as multi-selectors...armor prof/asf reduction or improved mage armor and shield prof/asf reduction or Improved shield spell. Should also allow Wizard Orbs to qualify as "shields" for any related feats...maybe also multi-selectors...would be more thematic imo to have a 15% chance for your wizard "Force Shield" to flare up dealing force damage to your attacker. (as an to the improved shield bash again devs this tree should make HEAVY use of multi-selectors)

    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    14) They could add a free THF line in the cores (IN ADDITION TO CHANGING THE SPELLSWORDS). It will be hard to fit the whole THF line + IC + Cleave + GC + everything else on a Sorc/Wiz with their **** BAB. OR, as sephiroth suggested in another thread:
    I'd say a multi-slector that allows the choice of the THF Line, The TWF Line or the S&B Line but to be honest I'd rather see a special EK line that focuses on 1-Handed Weapons and Wizard Orbs iconically EKs use 1 single 1-handed weapon and a spell in the off-hand so the wizard orb fits better...maybe a multi-selector for all 4.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    6) I can't remember right now how many SP Tenser's toggle use but it should be free if it isn't. The whole point of a battlemage is to melee AND cast at the same time. Either make Tenser free to toggle or give it a passive bonus where you can cast spells but they cost a bit more (10% more sp)
    Tensers was changed a while ago you can cast spell just fine in it now just minor penalties to DC

    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    11) The garbage cores should either be all active at once (which I suggested and I'd love to see) or re-worked completely from scratch
    I don't think they need to be redone from scratch nor do I think they should work all at once...they should work as is but only take up one core slot. When you click the toggle in your hot bar it brings up a prompt similar to resist energy allowing your to choose which element you want at the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathdefy View Post
    Can you take the wand stuff out of Archmage and replace it with a secondary SLA line now please?
    Wizards don't need two enhancement trees with non-stacking identical bonuses to do with wands.
    Agreed Wand/Scroll Mastery makes sense in Archmage but noit here I'd say drop it to make room for something more EK-like

    One idea could be to allow us to take feats as if we were a fighter of equal level (normally their granted bonus feats in the form of fighter feats)
    Last edited by Failedlegend; 10-12-2013 at 10:16 AM.
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  6. #26
    Community Member Wizza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    Why its Mage ARMOR...armor gives PRR and AC. What they should do is merge this and improved shield with the armor and shild proficiences as multi-selectors...armor prof/asf reduction or improved mage armor and shield prof/asf reduction or Improved shield spell. Should also allow Wizard Orbs to qualify as "shields" for any related feats...maybe also multi-selectors...would be more thematic imo to have a 15% chance for your wizard "Force Shield" to flare up dealing force damage to your attacker.
    Would work.

    Anything would work as long as they stop giving useless AC bonuses.


    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    Tensers was changed a while ago you can cast spell just fine in it now just minor penalties to DC
    Edited it out already. Was thinking about Barbs rage for some reasons


    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    I don't think they need to be redone from scratch nor do I think they should work all at once...they should work as is but only take up one core slot. When you click the toggle in your hot bar it brings up a prompt similar to resist energy allowing your to choose which element you want at the time.
    Which is basically redoing them from scratch. Turning four different cores into a multi-selector one will means that the other 3 will need to be something else completely different = re-working from scratch.

    Honestly, I wouldn't mind a four different 4d4 damage.

    Also, one of the cores could be an Improved Force Guard effect: Deals 0d2 +1 per character level Force damage when you are successfully attacked in melee. Would fit. Would be thematic. Damage wouldn't be too bad (1d2 + 28 at cap making it a 28-30 damage when hit).
    Last edited by Wizza; 10-12-2013 at 10:11 AM.
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  7. #27
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    I like having wand mastery in this tree.
    At least I won't have to waste points on wand heightening.

  8. #28
    Community Member Saravis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    to be honest I'd rather see a special EK line that focuses on 1-Handed Weapons and Wizard Orbs iconically EKs use 1 single 1-handed weapon and a spell in the off-hand so the wizard orb fits better...maybe a multi-selector for all 4.
    I'd like to see that too. Thf and twf rule the melee styles, so it would be nice to have an alternative. It would also be great for not having to worry about feats on a feat starved class. However, if they do have an orb based style, we'd need to have more orbs for it to be viable, there aren't any orbs lower than lvl 12.

    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    Agreed Wand/Scroll Mastery makes sense in Archmage but noit here I'd say drop it to make room for something more EK-like
    Please don't, fleshy sorcs need scroll mastery and this is the place they decided to put it.
    Last edited by Saravis; 10-12-2013 at 10:25 AM.

  9. #29
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    Would work.

    Anything would work as long as they stop giving useless AC bonuses.
    I beg to differ that AC is useless you just can't have a 100% miss rate anymore and having an "ok" AC actually helps now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    Edited it out already. Was thinking about Barbs rage for some reasons
    Lol :P


    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    Which is basically redoing them from scratch. Turning four different cores into a multi-selector one will means that the other 3 will need to be something else completely different = re-working from scratch.
    To be fair their not redoing the spellsword ability their making new ones..so technically not "redoing from scratch"...more of a "reorganizing"


    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    Also, one of the cores could be an Improved Force Guard effect: Deals 0d2 +1 per character level Force damage when you are successfully attacked in melee. Would fit. Would be thematic. Damage wouldn't be too bad (1d2 + 28 at cap making it a 28-30 damage when hit).
    I'm assuming you mean 1D2 because 0D2 means no dice :P but yeah Force guard effect would be cool.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post
    I like having wand mastery in this tree.
    At least I won't have to waste points on wand heightening.
    Well it's nice that you like it but it doesn't really make any sense for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saravis View Post
    I'd like to see that too. Thf and twf rule the melee styles, so it would be nice to have an alternative. It would also be great for not having to worry about feats on a feat starved class. However, if they do have an orb based style, we'd need to have more orbs for it to be viable, there aren't any orbs lower than lvl 12.
    Stick them in random loot table so we can craft stuff on them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saravis View Post
    Please don't, fleshy sorcs need scroll mastery and this is the place they decided to put it.
    Put Wand/Scroll Mastery in the savant lines...its doesn't really make sense for EK
    Last edited by Failedlegend; 10-12-2013 at 10:58 AM.
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    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  10. #30
    Community Member Saravis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    Put Wand/Scroll Mastery in the savant lines...its doesn't really make sense for EK
    Only if they can fit it in all four, otherwise it won't be accessible for some Savants.

  11. #31
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    Default Ok, Eldritch Knight, so now what

    My first thought on this was - what on earth does my sorcerer need it for? I would have preferred something that could help a sorcerer do something else than get stuck with one or 2 element casting.
    I would really be interested to understand what the idea is here - What kind of character would one be making as a pure Sorc/Wiz going for the Eldritch Knight? If you take 40 in this tree, then I can imagine a Wizard going mostly for buffs and some CC or have the PM companion as support. For the sorcerer, would he be taking the short range SLA he gets? Apart from that, where is the synergy (there has to be some, right?)

    But ok, we now have a tree for melee divines (war priest), so why not a melee arcane caster tree. So lets have a look what I would expect from that.

    First - a sorcerer/wizard won't have strenth to hit hard by himself, and if we want it to keep the feeling of an arcane, I would say it shouldn't suddenly become one (although to do battle he should have decent strenth, and not dump it to 8-10), otherwise this tree would become more of a splash tree for melees/divines maybe. Could actually work well with those Paladin/Sorc or battle mage PMs?

    When I see Mage armor and the shield SLA, it fits the theme. But these SLA's are pretty useless (at base - equipping a very basic +2-+4 armor item/robe already gives you the same in low lvls, so why bother?). If this should make any sense it should scale far more to give you a decent lvl of protection (I like the idea proposed above that you could get a choice between the SLA and alacrity+armor proficiency) without going into armor. That way it could also work with monks or rogues (or bards??) to dip into this tree.

    Then - normally on my melees I don't bother too much with guard effects (they have been getting more powerfull at low lvls after U19 though), but for the Eldritch Knight, they make a lot of sense/feel right for it - I would think you should be able to choose what elements/type (say give 2 guards to match your savant trees/negative energy for PM/preferred school?). Off course then they should get better with more tree investment/lvls, and be influenced by your spell power so to get some synergy with being an arcane caster in the first place.

    What else? How would this EK go about his tactics? Use CC spells instead (the wiz line taking grease/web etc could work for that, as could illusion). But for that we would need a way to boost the DC of them, and possibly add some as SLAs too, especially on sorcerers.

    And I think hit points / healing or self healing are missing from the tree too. Maybe a choice of Repair/CW/IW, or some way to boost these or boost our heal amp/repair amp.

    All in All, I think its nice to see what the tree is going to become, and it does have some interesting ideas in it. But I think it needs a lot of work to be a viable option for any arcane caster, or even for an arcane dps or arcane tank.

    - EDIT: yes I do think wand/scroll mastery fits in here. After all, if you are going to be a melee arcane, you would defenitely need to have access to wand healing. And as is mentioned above, its better to add it here, than to add it in all 4 savant lines. So instead, just take it out of the other wiz tree (could that work? Not sure all wiz would like to get a bit of this tree really - maybe if the Mage armor SLA was any good, or if it offered some self healing it would ...)?

    EDIT 2 - I do think it needs a way to get TWF/THF/S&B or the Sword&Orb as proposed too.
    Last edited by Nascoe; 10-12-2013 at 12:25 PM.

  12. #32
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saravis View Post
    Only if they can fit it in all four, otherwise it won't be accessible for some Savants.
    Move the 1st SLA to Tier 2 and have Wand Mastery be tier one (not linked to the SLAs) this works for each savant
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  13. #33
    Community Member Saravis's Avatar
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    Are the spellsword toggles subject to spellpower?
    In my view they should change the spellswords to be force damage, have it to be subject to spellpower and adjust the core enhancements as necessary. It would make more sense to go along with the force sp in the cores.

  14. #34
    Community Member Cyr's Avatar
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    Looks pretty horrible overall honestly. The shield and mage armor SLA with added defensive bonuses might make the tree okay to do a minor dip into though as well as the tier 3 core. There is just not enough dps in the tree to even come close to investing heavily in it, particularly on a mostly pure arcane build.
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  15. #35
    Community Member Wizza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    I beg to differ that AC is useless you just can't have a 100% miss rate anymore and having an "ok" AC actually helps now.
    A pure sorc will have like..40 AC. It's not "ok". It's nothing. A splash? Not sure. Maybe a 60-70? Not relevant. You could argue "but it's 1% miss chance! Better than nothing!". Just no. I'd rather have some offensive stuff here than a mease 10% AC bonus or a dodge bonus. Now that would be cool.

    Mage armor SLA: Grants you 2/4/6% dodge when you have the spell on you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saravis View Post
    Are the spellsword toggles subject to spellpower?
    In my view they should change the spellswords to be force damage, have it to be subject to spellpower and adjust the core enhancements as necessary. It would make more sense to go along with the force sp in the cores.
    No they are not. I like the Force damage subjected to Spellpower thou.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyr View Post
    Looks pretty horrible overall honestly. The shield and mage armor SLA with added defensive bonuses might make the tree okay to do a minor dip into though as well as the tier 3 core. There is just not enough dps in the tree to even come close to investing heavily in it, particularly on a mostly pure arcane build.
    Pretty much. The only two abilities that I'd save from this tree are Eldritch Tempest (Prone for 1 second should be Helpless for one second to make it synergize with every other Cleave-like ability) and Eldritch Strike.

    Rest is meh.

    And not just in this tree itself. My savant will gain 15 HP and WSM (that should have been in the savants tree from the start) and that's it. Savants can't even afford the PRR from the Shield spell because it would require you to spend 3/3 in Mage Armor SLA + 1 Toughness to advance next level + 3/3 Shield SLA = 7 AP + 1 Core = 8 AP just to get 10 PRR.

    It's bad.
    Last edited by Wizza; 10-12-2013 at 01:10 PM.
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  16. #36
    Community Member djl's Avatar
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    I stayed a Sorc, hoping against hope that the "new tree" they promised would provide benefits that made Sorcs comparable to Wizards. But they didn't.

    Looks like I need to bite the bullet and TR into a Wizard. I just don't have the motivation. I mean, what's the point? So I'd eventually get back to 28, then what?

  17. #37
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    A pure sorc will have like..40 AC. It's not "ok". It's nothing. A splash? Not sure. Maybe a 60-70? Not relevant. You could argue "but it's 1% miss chance! Better than nothing!". Just no. I'd rather have some offensive stuff here than a mease 10% AC bonus or a dodge bonus. Now that would be cool.
    My PM Wiz18/Rogue2 has 68 AC and I could easily make 80 if I wasn't still wearing Lvl 12 armor and other equipment (the rogue levels do little to increase my AC so I doubt being a single Class Wiz would change anything).


    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    Pretty much. The only two abilities that I'd save from this tree are Eldritch Tempest (Prone for 1 second should be Helpless for one second to make it synergize with every other Cleave-like ability) and Eldritch Strike.

    Rest is meh.
    It does need alot of work but overall its fits its theme quite well it doesn't need to be completely deleted and re-made though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    And not just in this tree itself. My savant will gain 15 HP and WSM (that should have been in the savants tree from the start) and that's it. Savants can't even afford the PRR from the Shield spell because it would require you to spend 3/3 in Mage Armor SLA + 1 Toughness to advance next level + 3/3 Shield SLA = 7 AP + 1 Core = 8 AP just to get 10 PRR.
    Honestly Wizza what your non-Battle Mage thinks of EK is fairly irrelevant. Thats like getting upset that AA doesn't help a tempest be better at TWFing.

    Quote Originally Posted by djl View Post
    I stayed a Sorc, hoping against hope that the "new tree" they promised would provide benefits that made Sorcs comparable to Wizards. But they didn't.

    Looks like I need to bite the bullet and TR into a Wizard. I just don't have the motivation. I mean, what's the point? So I'd eventually get back to 28, then what?
    Funny I'm planning to TR my Battle Wiz into a Battle Sorc (not related to EK though...I'm not even sure if I'll use EK beyond a few APs if it doesn't change)
    Last edited by Failedlegend; 10-12-2013 at 01:35 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  18. #38
    Community Member Wizza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    My PM Wiz18/Rogue2 has 68 AC and I could easily make 80 if I wasn't still wearing Lvl 12 armor and other equipment (the rogue levels do little to increase my AC so I doubt being a single Class Wiz would change anything).
    Cool. It would still be a 5% chance to miss at level, like my 40 AC.

    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    It does need alot of work but overall its fits its theme quite well it doesn't need to be completely deleted and re-made though.
    Never said it doesn't fit its theme. But we are playing DDO here, not PnP. It is no flavor PrC. It needs to be worth something. It needs to have something worthy. Read this thread. You will notice that it does not do it. It has useless cores, useless AC bonus, THOUSANDS of -ASF enhancements, THOUSANDS of shields bonus, a capstone that lasts 30 seconds for a measly 10% damage.

    A LOT of work, yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    Honestly Wizza what your non-Battle Mage thinks of EK is fairly irrelevant. Thats like getting upset that AA doesn't help a tempest be better at TWFing.
    Honestly, you really don't get it, do you? This was the whole point of the enhancement pass.

    But let's not whine too much. I can get my WSM and 15 HP
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  19. #39
    Community Member Wizza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    It does need alot of work but overall its fits its theme quite well it doesn't need to be completely deleted and re-made though.

    Funny I'm planning to TR my Battle Wiz into a Battle Sorc (not related to EK though...I'm not even sure if I'll use EK beyond a few APs if it doesn't change)
    Why do you argue that it sucks then?

    Thematic? Sure. Worth something? Hell no.
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    Default Yes, it seems to work nicely as a splash with burst DPS

    After playing around with it for a bit on my bladeforged paladin/sorc, I must say I can actually see how it can work quite nicely.

    The Mage armor / shield SLAs still needs to scale more to give some advantage. But as my Bladeforged has the greatsword, shield can be a bit of a help. And the bursts of damage fit in nicely with the slay evil burst damage etc. I added the air savant line in a bit and went for nice shock damage. I had been preparing this character to go shiradi later, so force spell power was just the thing.

    Off course going BF solves the self healing nicely with its repair/reconstruct SLAs, it also gives you fortification which helps a lot for a melee. And the paladin suddenly makes even more sense.

    I only played it for about half an hour in slayer areas to get some feel for it, but I think it could work to make a solid build out of it.

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