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  1. #41
    2016 DDO Players Council Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rest View Post
    In-game bans do not affect forum posting privileges and vice versa.
    i thought so. than the next question would be, where are the banned ranting? people are ready to have popcorn

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobrien316 View Post
    I certainly wouldn't be upset if the cheaters also lost stuff they gained through legitimate questing.

    It wouldn't be unreasonable, in my opinion, if anyone who cheats loses their entire inventory, all of their characters lose all XP (including past lives and ED's), and they have to start the game all over again.

    If you think that's unfair, then just don't cheat. Not cheating is really, really easy.
    Have you heard the term "draconian punishment"? No, it's nothing to do with dragons, it's named after a guy called Draco (in Ancient Greece) who thought he'd cut down on crime by imposing the death penalty for everything.
    Death penalty for murder!
    Death penalty for assault!
    Death penalty for pickpocketing!
    Death penalty for lying to the court!
    Death penalty for jaywalking!

    If you think that's unfair, then just don't break the laws. Not breaking the laws is really, really easy.

    It didn't work so well, because some side effects of draconian punishment are 1) people start hiding their crimes a lot more rather than confessing and accepting the punishment, and 2) people start committing worse crimes because there's no extra penalty for worse crimes compared to minor ones.

  3. #43
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circon View Post
    Have you heard the term "draconian punishment"? No, it's nothing to do with dragons, it's named after a guy called Draco (in Ancient Greece) who thought he'd cut down on crime by imposing the death penalty for everything.
    Death penalty for murder!
    Death penalty for assault!
    Death penalty for pickpocketing!
    Death penalty for lying to the court!
    Death penalty for jaywalking!

    If you think that's unfair, then just don't break the laws. Not breaking the laws is really, really easy.

    It didn't work so well, because some side effects of draconian punishment are 1) people start hiding their crimes a lot more rather than confessing and accepting the punishment, and 2) people start committing worse crimes because there's no extra penalty for worse crimes compared to minor ones.
    “it is much safer to be feared than loved because ...love is preserved by the link of obligation which, owing to the baseness of men, is broken at every opportunity for their advantage; but fear preserves you by a dread of punishment which never fails.”

    Draco just didn't inspire enough fear.

  4. #44
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circon View Post
    Have you heard the term "draconian punishment"? No, it's nothing to do with dragons, it's named after a guy called Draco (in Ancient Greece) who thought he'd cut down on crime by imposing the death penalty for everything.
    Death penalty for murder!
    Death penalty for assault!
    Death penalty for pickpocketing!
    Death penalty for lying to the court!
    Death penalty for jaywalking!

    If you think that's unfair, then just don't break the laws. Not breaking the laws is really, really easy.

    It didn't work so well, because some side effects of draconian punishment are 1) people start hiding their crimes a lot more rather than confessing and accepting the punishment, and 2) people start committing worse crimes because there's no extra penalty for worse crimes compared to minor ones.
    To defend Dracon, his was the first attempt to make everybody equal before the law.
    Dystopia = utopia achieved

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    “it is much safer to be feared than loved because ...love is preserved by the link of obligation which, owing to the baseness of men, is broken at every opportunity for their advantage; but fear preserves you by a dread of punishment which never fails.”

    Draco just didn't inspire enough fear.
    I see your point, but I'd like to put forth a slightly different viewpoint: I think Draco inspired fear in the wrong places. People would have a lot of fear of breaking the law (and getting caught, obviously), but after they'd broken it once, there was not enough fear of breaking it again.

    As the proverb goes: "Might as well be hung for a sheep as (for) a lamb."

    Also, the analysis you're quoting is a short and pithy version, so I'll take the opportunity to expand on it as I ramble at length. Once you have decided to be feared rather than loved, it is of great importance that you ensure to consistently and predictably maintain that fear. While being feared may be safer than being loved, being feared is also harder to maintain. For that same baseness of man you mention, ensures that men will swiftly forget their dread, thinking that they can do better than the last villain they saw, and they will soon seek to disobey if they perceive an opportunity. Therefore, if a wise prince desires to be feared, it is not enough for him merely to punish: he should also punish frequently, that his subjects remember and remain in fear, and he should punish publicly, that his subjects see his willingness to punish.

    IMO Turbine is getting this last part wrong. Rings of cheaters will hear "I was punished with XX days ban and loss of YY item" from each other. But when Turbine remains closemouthed about specific punishments, people outside those rings of cheaters won't see much of people getting punished, and they'll think "Maybe I can get away with a little cheating, because it doesn't seem like it's punished much." Even if Turbine doesn't make it specific who got banned and for what, I'd still advise them to post something like:
    Found a duper today with 10 000 of each color of flawless dragon scale. Deleted all his scales, also deleted his greensteel, and all his Epic Gianthold loot.
    Of course... that's assuming Turbine sticks to the "fear" route.

    They could try to go the "love" route, where they encourage cooperation with the players, rather than both sides trying to squeeze as much as possible out of the other one... nah. :-P

  6. #46
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    i thought so. than the next question would be, where are the banned ranting? people are ready to have popcorn
    They probably just don't know yet to what extent they should be outraged...
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow - btw, do you have change for 10 million population?

  7. #47
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    I'm just happy to hear that there are actually going to be consequences for the Exploiters.

    Hopefully Turbine does a thorough job and strips them of everything they duped, bought with the plat and shards they made from dupping, and hands out significant bans for the worst of the dupers.

  8. #48
    Community Member SilkofDrasnia's Avatar
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    I was reading through this thread and saw this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    It will be Turbine that kills DDO, not any other game.
    and I couldn't help but think there are many that are addicted to DDO but are not really happy with the game anymore and they would like to move on but lack the oomph or motivation to find another game and so keep playing, kind of like how some hate their jobs but are unable to quit and find one they do enjoy and are therefore stuck in a rut, until something drastic happens that is.

    So I can't help but wonder if Teh_Troll is a prophet?
    Last edited by SilkofDrasnia; 10-11-2013 at 08:21 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    Insulting the development team is not allowed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jendrak
    Somebody should definitely explain to Turbine that when they roll up a new GM that INT is not dump stat.

  9. #49
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkofDrasnia View Post
    So I can't help but wonder if Teh_Troll is a prophet?
    Teh Troll is wise. All hail Teh Troll.

  10. #50
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkofDrasnia View Post
    So I can't help but wonder if Teh_Troll is a prophet?
    Only for prophit
    Dystopia = utopia achieved

  11. #51
    Community Member mobrien316's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circon View Post
    Have you heard the term "draconian punishment"? No, it's nothing to do with dragons, it's named after a guy called Draco (in Ancient Greece) who thought he'd cut down on crime by imposing the death penalty for everything.
    Death penalty for murder!
    Death penalty for assault!
    Death penalty for pickpocketing!
    Death penalty for lying to the court!
    Death penalty for jaywalking!

    If you think that's unfair, then just don't break the laws. Not breaking the laws is really, really easy.

    It didn't work so well, because some side effects of draconian punishment are 1) people start hiding their crimes a lot more rather than confessing and accepting the punishment, and 2) people start committing worse crimes because there's no extra penalty for worse crimes compared to minor ones.
    Yeah, murder is on a par with cheating in an online game...

    If cheaters knew that they were going to lose everything and have to start all over again, that might discourage the cheating. Even if did not, the cheaters would still lose their gear and their XP and have to start all over again. Unless you consider people who start a new character at level one with no gear to be undergoing some sort of terrible punishment, I don't see how you support your analogy.

    Nobody cheats by accident. Nobody "accidentally" duped stacks of scales or anything else. Every person who cheats makes a conscious decision to cheat. If you cheat in an online game and the penalty when you're caught is that you lose your gear in an online game, I hardly think that's a "Draconian" punishment.
    All on Thelanis: Archenpaul Sixblade, Archernicus Thornwood, Gregorovic Redcloak, Hermanius Brightblade, Jaklomeo Evermug, Jonathraxius Kane, and Praetoreus Silvershield.

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    Cogito ergo summopere periculosus.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circon View Post
    I see your point, but I'd like to put forth a slightly different viewpoint: I think Draco inspired fear in the wrong places. People would have a lot of fear of breaking the law (and getting caught, obviously), but after they'd broken it once, there was not enough fear of breaking it again.

    As the proverb goes: "Might as well be hung for a sheep as (for) a lamb."

    Also, the analysis you're quoting is a short and pithy version, so I'll take the opportunity to expand on it as I ramble at length. Once you have decided to be feared rather than loved, it is of great importance that you ensure to consistently and predictably maintain that fear. While being feared may be safer than being loved, being feared is also harder to maintain. For that same baseness of man you mention, ensures that men will swiftly forget their dread, thinking that they can do better than the last villain they saw, and they will soon seek to disobey if they perceive an opportunity. Therefore, if a wise prince desires to be feared, it is not enough for him merely to punish: he should also punish frequently, that his subjects remember and remain in fear, and he should punish publicly, that his subjects see his willingness to punish.

    IMO Turbine is getting this last part wrong. Rings of cheaters will hear "I was punished with XX days ban and loss of YY item" from each other. But when Turbine remains closemouthed about specific punishments, people outside those rings of cheaters won't see much of people getting punished, and they'll think "Maybe I can get away with a little cheating, because it doesn't seem like it's punished much." Even if Turbine doesn't make it specific who got banned and for what, I'd still advise them to post something like:

    Of course... that's assuming Turbine sticks to the "fear" route.

    They could try to go the "love" route, where they encourage cooperation with the players, rather than both sides trying to squeeze as much as possible out of the other one... nah. :-P
    None of that will work here because "subjects" can't simply leave for another game. The banning and fear BS used to work back in the days of EQ and perhaps when DDO was young, but nowdays there's lots more better quality services out there. What's the old saw? "You aren't cutting me off, baby - you just lost your place in line."


    Besides that, who cares if a bunch of whaa-whaas on the forums get to cluck to each other and shake their fingers disapprovingly? What consequence is there? Most people never play with each other - they have a set group and that it, or pug it, in which case they take who they can. Multiply that by the various servers and your idea of community shaming falls apart like tissue paper in a Jacuzzi. There's simply nothing any player, or even a group of players, can do that would seriously interfere with another player's gaming experience.


    What Turbine needs to do is stop sucking in the thousand ways pointed out to them (repeatedly) on these and other forums, and do a better job at their game as they have in the past (the Taken series with Yalthoon was one of the best). And quit doing screwed-up BS like making stuff suddenly "unique" and BTC, etc.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkofDrasnia View Post
    I was reading through this thread and saw this:



    and I couldn't help but think there are many that are addicted to DDO but are not really happy with the game anymore and they would like to move on but lack the oomph or motivation to find another game and so keep playing, kind of like how some hate their jobs but are unable to quit and find one they do enjoy and are therefore stuck in a rut, until something drastic happens that is.

    So I can't help but wonder if Teh_Troll is a prophet?
    It's called a lack of options. Show me another D&D(ish) MMO that's ripe with customization and nothing like NWO, and I'll go have a look-see. Until then, this is my last, best & only option.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow - btw, do you have change for 10 million population?

  14. #54
    Community Member Ashlayna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    It's called a lack of options. Show me another D&D(ish) MMO that's ripe with customization and nothing like NWO, and I'll go have a look-see. Until then, this is my last, best & only option.
    I found myself completely underwhelmed by NW.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobrien316 View Post
    Yeah, murder is on a par with cheating in an online game...
    That's not what I said, and congratulations on entirely missing my point.

    Quote Originally Posted by mobrien316 View Post
    If cheaters knew that they were going to lose everything and have to start all over again, that might discourage the cheating.
    Yeah, and if liars knew they were going to be executed, that might discourage the lying.

    Quote Originally Posted by mobrien316 View Post
    Even if did not, the cheaters would still lose their gear and their XP and have to start all over again. Unless you consider people who start a new character at level one with no gear to be undergoing some sort of terrible punishment, I don't see how you support your analogy.
    What worse punishment can you imagine Turbine handing out after they've blanked a player's account? (Banning is practically equivalent to your proposed blanking of accounts, since both result in having to start all over again.) I don't see much left.

    I can easily imagine worse player actions than duping.

    If Turbine takes your advice and blanks a player's account for duping, they will have very little punishment left to punish people who do worse-than-duping, and as the history of Draco demonstrates, this will encourage dupers to move on to worse things like hacking into other people's accounts and stealing their stuff, crash-griefing the Mabar event, etc, because it's not like Turbine can do anything worse to them.

  16. #56
    Community Member thisgamesull's Avatar
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    What I believe Tolero is saying is all the duped Items will be taken from their inventory,and if it was scales and other ingredients to make weapons/armor then those will also be gone,(I.E. You upgraded a pinion with items (YOU) duped). Then Say good bye to your pinion.
    For those that Bought or traded for duped items I believe will not be too upset with what they have in their inventories

    Is this a fair approach? yes it most certainly is. why should turbine have to spend their time fixing something that you purposely broke?

    And for the record I am Guilty of being Greedy.


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  17. #57
    2016 DDO Players Council Stoner81's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiliconScout View Post
    What if I have hundreds or thousands of crafting essences legitimately? Is that player at risk of having it taken away because it "might" have come from a dupe exploit? I seriously doubt it but in a vacuum of information you have to expect there to be rampant speculation.
    Now this I would like to know about...

    I have been stockpiling essences simply because I am trying to increase my crafting levels and it's now at a point where recipes require a lot of mats to make stuff, so I stockpile and then pop a crafting elixir to get more XP per shard that I make.

    Please Turbine could we get something for the legitimate players among us?

    Stoner81.

    PS - Pretty please with sugar on top

  18. #58
    Community Member Forzah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Removing duped items seems pretty obvious. If they remove anything other than duped items, they might as well just perma-ban, because that player's not coming back anyway, I'd guess.
    People have invested much time in their toons and started to love them. Typically, they will prefer keeping their toon over losing ingredients. I predict most of them stay and they will think twice the next time there is an opportunity for exploiting.

    Moreover, letting them keep all the items they had before is a bad idea. It sends out the signal that you might as well exploit, because it can only make you as good or better off after a ban. If you actually lose stuff over exploiting, not many people are willing to take the risk of getting caught. This creates an incentive structure that deters cheating.

  19. #59
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    “it is much safer to be feared than loved because ...love is preserved by the link of obligation which, owing to the baseness of men, is broken at every opportunity for their advantage; but fear preserves you by a dread of punishment which never fails.”

    Draco just didn't inspire enough fear.
    Its probably better to be respected than feared.........we hate what we fear. Or respected and maybe feared a little?

    That draco guy.........sheeze i would know im already a dead man so I could go from being 100% innocence of any crime, and pretty unlikely in my life time to commit one, to stabbing that mofo 1 billion times. And I would not feel one shred of guilt for doing it, before I jumped out his window to my death, or slit my own throat after.
    Last edited by NaturalHazard; 10-12-2013 at 05:32 AM.

  20. #60
    Community Member mobrien316's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circon View Post
    That's not what I said, and congratulations on entirely missing my point.

    Yeah, and if liars knew they were going to be executed, that might discourage the lying.

    What worse punishment can you imagine Turbine handing out after they've blanked a player's account? (Banning is practically equivalent to your proposed blanking of accounts, since both result in having to start all over again.) I don't see much left.

    I can easily imagine worse player actions than duping.

    If Turbine takes your advice and blanks a player's account for duping, they will have very little punishment left to punish people who do worse-than-duping, and as the history of Draco demonstrates, this will encourage dupers to move on to worse things like hacking into other people's accounts and stealing their stuff, crash-griefing the Mabar event, etc, because it's not like Turbine can do anything worse to them.
    Your attempted point was ridiculous. Comparing murder to online cheating? Okay, that's an appropriate analogy.

    Cheating is cheating. If you dupe items, and the punishment is to lose all your items and XP, that's appropriate. If you do "something worse than cheating", then ban that player altogether.

    How many items did you dupe?
    All on Thelanis: Archenpaul Sixblade, Archernicus Thornwood, Gregorovic Redcloak, Hermanius Brightblade, Jaklomeo Evermug, Jonathraxius Kane, and Praetoreus Silvershield.

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