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  1. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by samthedagger View Post

    Packs to Reduce (these packs are run and farmed into oblivion because they are quick and easy, even with the new XP ransack)
    Tangleroot Gorge (this entire chain can be completed on one set of ship buffs with 20-30 minutes to spare; and the challenge does not scale well; reduce the level of these quests to 3-5 and tone down the XP a bit)
    Delara's Tomb (part 2 and part 4 particularly; part 1 and part 3 need a small boost and part 2 and part 4 need a reduction)
    The Vault of Night (this pack is great for only one thing: XP; increase the loot drop rate in the raid and reduce the XP in most of the quests, particularly VoN3; leave the raid alone because it takes a long time to run and lots of coordination which should be rewarded)
    Personally even touching these packs from a PR standpoint would be a virtual MMO suicide attempt. Two of them are some of the most popular chains in the game. VON and Delera's can be quite difficult the first couple of times for a new player. Tangleroot can be difficult for a new player has the difficulty goes from 5ish and scales all he way to 9 on elite. The average group of new players doing this at lvl 6-7 could easily have a hard time in the last couple if they are under level. VON3 is many people's most favorite quest in the game. You don't take a '67 Shelby Mustang GT500 and replace its 428 with a 1.6L Honda Civic 4 cylinder.

    Yes all of these are a breeze once you learn the tricks and are familiar with them. But that goes for every quest in the game. IE: In the Flesh at level on elite made me struggle the first couple of times, but now after learning it I have yet to fail on elite at level. Does that now make it easy? For the vast majority, no.
    Last edited by Drwaz99; 10-10-2013 at 10:10 AM.

  2. #222

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    oh please... quests like Von3 and Delaras 2 and 4 DO give WAY too much XP. anyone who says any different is kidding themselves.

    that being said, I'm very glad they didnt nerf them in this initial group of changes. Its good to see how the increases (And decreases) effect playstyles first before making Major changes.
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  3. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cetus View Post
    Very interesting, longer quests should have always given more XP
    Not necessarily. Quest XP should be based on the difficulty of the quest, not the length. Most of the time, these correspond with each other, but not always. In cases where they do not, quest length should not be the determining factor for XP.

    But then, every single quest in the game tells me the Devs do not, nor ever have known how to assign XP to a quest.

  4. #224
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    One of the new mechanics added could be a great way to shore up XP issues.

    Sagas. You use the saga concept and add an EXP reward option to certain chains.

    How about after you finish the 4 WW quests for the first time, in addition to the named items, you now have can get 4K XP. A new player will have use from some of the named items and will probably take them, but most Vets either pawn the item or take guild renown anyway, so why not give them a legitimate reward? (Yes, I know that the WW quests give decent experience, it just an example.)

    For every one run of the final RR quest, you have about 20 runs of Monastery. Would that change if you had a 25K xp bonus option for the first time you complete it? Many chain rewards like Dragon-touched armors have been vastly outgrown and are not sufficient to keep folks interested.

    On a 3rd life character, how often are you excited by the chain end rewards of the House P chain, house D chain, Tangleroot or Catacombs? Add an experience reward option to them, it should be extremely easy to program.

    Stormraiser

  5. #225
    The Hatchery samthedagger's Avatar
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    Well the choice that would probably keep the most people happy is by simply increasing the XP in XP-poor quests and leaving the others alone. But as others have already pointed out that's basically just adding more "easy button" to DDO. There needs to be a little balance on both sides of the scale.

    And for what it's worth, Delara's, VoN, and Tangleroot were all pretty easy the very first time I ran them. That's right. I didn't know the quests and succeeded on most at elite the very first time. And this was back before VIP elite unlock and I still got a group with elite unlockers because I like a challenge. I think the only one that ever gave me any difficulty was VoN2, simply because of the beholders. After that I learned my lesson and approached them cautiously so that by the time I hit the beholders in VoN3 I was prepared for them. In fact, I would dare say the vast majority of quests I have run in DDO have never been done on normal or hard because I always looked for groups able to unlock elite and dropped group when an elite unlocker wasn't around and started looking for another group because I like the challenge. Back in those days lots of folks would solo normal and hard then put up an lfm for elite. I hit the LFMs looking to run elite. Of course not everyone is like me. But my point is that it is completely do-able for a newbie.

    Re: Sorrowdusk vs. Catacombs
    Sorrowdusk is mitigated by the fact that there are lots of easily grabbed rares and explorers along the way. And some of the quests actually grant very good xp/min; it's not on the order of Delara's or VoN xp/min, but then again nothing is. Catacombs doesn't have that benefit when you're climbing stairs and hopping down back and forth. Sorrowdusk is a lot like Tangleroot, only the XP isn't quite as fast because all Tangleroot dungeons start at the same place with the quest-giver right outside. But the two quest-givers are still relatively close to the quests. If you know 'em, you can run almost all of the quests at level 8 on elite solo on one set of ship buffs. I imagine you could even do it on a first-lifer build like WF sorc or monk. Sorrowdusk also grants about twice as much favor as Catacombs and about 20% more favor than Tangleroot Gorge.

  6. #226
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    Something that is a little troubling is that Devs don't look at how often quests are run? Why not? Aside from sales figures of packs, wouldn't quest running be such a key indicator of something being right?

    I've probably ran the 3BC quests twice? Maybe 3 times? It is a shame, the quests are pretty cool, the area is nice, but the run there is SO far, and the experience is so low.

    There is something wrong when quests are not being run at all.


    Something else I like is the "extreme optionals" like the mother dragon from Mired, the undead beholder from ITF, the drow barrier optional. All of those should grant more experience or a better reward.

  7. #227
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by samthedagger View Post

    Re: Sorrowdusk vs. Catacombs
    Sorrowdusk is mitigated by the fact that there are lots of easily grabbed rares and explorers along the way. And some of the quests actually grant very good xp/min; it's not on the order of Delara's or VoN xp/min, but then again nothing is. Catacombs doesn't have that benefit when you're climbing stairs and hopping down back and forth. Sorrowdusk is a lot like Tangleroot, only the XP isn't quite as fast because all Tangleroot dungeons start at the same place with the quest-giver right outside. But the two quest-givers are still relatively close to the quests. If you know 'em, you can run almost all of the quests at level 8 on elite solo on one set of ship buffs. I imagine you could even do it on a first-lifer build like WF sorc or monk. Sorrowdusk also grants about twice as much favor as Catacombs and about 20% more favor than Tangleroot Gorge.
    Catabombs has the benefit of being in town (clicky pendent of time)

    the first quest a lvl 6 in Sorrowdusk has lower XP than the first quest in Catacombs a lvl 3. to me that's weak sause.

    the quests an the quest giver are a good distance apart and one could do most of the quests solo on one set of buffs but not the full chain like in catacombs and there reason is you spend just about the same amount of time outside the quests as you do inside.

    sure you might run into a rare or pick up a couple explorers but it does make up for the poor XP to begin with.

    you should be getting more XP for higher level quests at least for the majority of quests.

    honestly Sorrowdusks biggest draw to me where the farmable quests Captives of the Cult &The Libram of the Six which with the repeat penalty revamp have lost their luster.

  8. #228
    Community Member Drakestor's Avatar
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    I agree that 3BC quests are cool, and I really would run them every life of every character if they were not the levels they currently are. Meaning by the time I get to the appropriate character level to run 3BC, there is absolutely no reason to, my xp bar is full up, on to something else.

    Move 3BC to level 14-15, and I guarantee these would see a huge uptick in usage. Huge.

    Current level 16 quests give more than enough xp, they don't need to go there, or any higher, since majority of TR's bank character level 18 anyway.

    Just a thought.... and I like the 3BC quests too..... just a waste of time really....

  9. #229
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FalseFlag View Post
    Not necessarily. Quest XP should be based on the difficulty of the quest, not the length. Most of the time, these correspond with each other, but not always. In cases where they do not, quest length should not be the determining factor for XP.

    But then, every single quest in the game tells me the Devs do not, nor ever have known how to assign XP to a quest.
    if a quest is longer enough to force you to spend more time inside even if it is an easy quest it should give more XP.

    I don't enjoying spending 20 minutes in a quest to get the same reward as a quest that takes 5 minutes but is more difficult.

    if you gave the DDO community a timed quest that took 50 minutes to completion and was cake gave 50,000xp and a quest that took 5 minutes was difficult and gave 12,000 xp where do you thing they would rather go?

  10. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormraiser View Post
    Something else I like is the "extreme optionals" like the mother dragon from Mired, the undead beholder from ITF, the drow barrier optional. All of those should grant more experience or a better reward.
    I completely agree with this.

    Mired with Kobolds got the Mother optional XP correct (80%), but the total amount of XP from the quest itself is pitiful (1420/2476/2584/2692).

    In the Flesh has okay XP but could probably enjoy a slight increase for the length of the quest and how hard the end fight is on Elite. Howver the Dead Pykzyl optional needs to be boosted from 15% to at least 30%, although I'd like to see it in the 60% to 80% range.

    Blown to Bits is getting an XP increase, so we'll find out if its a minor 500xp or a more reasonable doubling/tripling/quadrupling increase. Whatever the base increase is, the Bomber optional XP definitely should be 80%.

    Into the Deep could probably use a bit of an XP increase because of its length. With that said, the optional Demon End Boss definitely be boosted an 80%.

    Litany of the Dead will probably get its base XP nerfed; although as hard as the Sigils are to get (still), the base XP shouldn't be touched. If the base XP is untouched, the four bosses need their optional XP boosted to 50% with the other optionals untouched at 10%. If the base XP is nerfed, the four bosses need the XP boosted to the 80% and the other optionals increased only if its a heavy nerf.

    Partycrashers is having its base XP increased, but Inkrakos could probably use an increase from 50% to the 60%-80% range. I think the other optionals are fine.

    I'm sure I'm missing some other tough optional bosses that need an XP boost. But those are the obvious ones that need an XP boost.

  11. #231
    Community Member lyrecono's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Impaqt View Post
    oh please... quests like Von3 and Delaras 2 and 4 DO give WAY too much XP. anyone who says any different is kidding themselves.

    that being said, I'm very glad they didnt nerf them in this initial group of changes. Its good to see how the increases (And decreases) effect playstyles first before making Major changes.
    no, the amount of exp they give is exactly what all the other old end game packs lacked. (IQ1&2, Shavarath, houce c etc) dragging things out like that isn't fun.

    if you nerf the von pack exp, people would stop buying it (there is only 1 item worth farming for these days). Assuming there enough people left to buy packs.
    It would make farming ED's even more boring.

    try running 20+ third lifes, you'll learn to appreciate /respect the von3 exp.

  12. #232
    Community Member dlsidhe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Impaqt View Post
    oh please... quests like Von3 and Delaras 2 and 4 DO give WAY too much XP. anyone who says any different is kidding themselves.

    that being said, I'm very glad they didnt nerf them in this initial group of changes. Its good to see how the increases (And decreases) effect playstyles first before making Major changes.
    VoN3 doesn't give too much XP for the time it was released - multiple traps, multiple beholders, puzzles, several named drow, and a fairly tough end-fight if there's no caster or the melee didn't bring anarchic weapons. What's happened is that most of the playerbase knows the quest so well that running it is no longer a challenge - and new players learn after one or two runs how to run it with minimal effort. What it needs is a kick in the pants revamp. Imagine running in and learning that Veil had made her entire tribe into vampires, necessitating silver weaponry to bypass DR. Replace the last named beholder with a doomsphere. Remove the ability to pull the last bosses one at a time - make them part of the wave of enemies at the end so there's no chance to regroup.

    The Delera's chain needs to be rebalanced - have it give the same amount of total XP, but more evenly distributed so there's less inclination to window farm part 2. Or, seriously, make it part of a Saga - Dead Predators, Mirra's Sleepless Nights, Delera's Tomb Chain, ...the Dead Shall Rise, etc.
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  13. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Some clarifications:

    We are likely to reduce the total amount of XP needed for 2nd and 3rd life characters to reach level 20.

    We didn't focus a great deal on how much each quest is being run. The focus was on the XP earned and completion times for those who did play these quests.

    XP and Favor have long been tied together. The XP formula also brings in factors such as quest length, quest level, quest difficulty, and some constants. There's a few other minor factors as well. In the cases where we are changing some of the XP, we now have the ability to override some of these factors and more directly set the XP values.

    It is not our thinking that these changes cover all issues. It's fine and great for you guys to keep up with the suggestions! Thank you.
    After having given some xp tomes, increased xp bonus range of pots, given some lottery daily xp, given 10% xp to VIP, reset the ransack farming counter, you are about to decrease the xp needed to cap. I dont catch it. Pushing to farm a bit on a single quest to level? Will xp mean nothing soon? Giving time to level is part of the enjoyment for some players.

    On another hand, if players get easily more xp, do you think they'll need many different packs to level? I am VIP and like to play once every single quest when levelling. If i dont need access to most packs to level and estimate i have too much xp, should i go back to f2p (10% less xp per quest only!) Is that good for business?

    I do agree on re-scaling xp in some quests though.

    For me, xp system is currently fine, improve it with caution, my thought.

    TC

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    we are likely to reduce the xp for tr'ing while at the same time
    we are reducing the xp earn't in the main quests run.this is not really
    reducing the xp for tr'ing.

    all im saying with the above is please be careful with what is being
    reduced.

    your friend sil

  15. #235
    Community Member Ashlayna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aons View Post
    After having given some xp tomes, increased xp bonus range of pots, given some lottery daily xp, given 10% xp to VIP, reset the ransack farming counter, you are about to decrease the xp needed to cap. I dont catch it. Pushing to farm a bit on a single quest to level? Will xp mean nothing soon? Giving time to level is part of the enjoyment for some players.

    On another hand, if players get easily more xp, do you think they'll need many different packs to level? I am VIP and like to play once every single quest when levelling. If i dont need access to most packs to level and estimate i have too much xp, should i go back to f2p (10% less xp per quest only!) Is that good for business?

    I do agree on re-scaling xp in some quests though.

    For me, xp system is currently fine, improve it with caution, my thought.

    TC
    I was running my 1st TR arti with some of my guildies that were on their third lives, and on average, I was 3 ranks ahead of them, despite starting to run with them 1 level down. I am currently 2.5 levels ahead of them. XP for TR is steep on the third life, for sure. My FvS is on her third life now, and with the quests I have completed this life, I was lvl 10 last life, and I'm only level 8, and some change. I don't much care, but the xp curve is much steeper for a third life than it is for a first or second lifer. I'm not sure what happens after the third life, but I have 3 more lives that I want to run, at least, before I do my final build on that character. I'm not going to lobby for reducing the xp needed to get to 20, but I won't say no to it if they do it.

  16. #236
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    I would *LOVE* to see a balance in Threnal and Sorrowdusk to level-bind the quests a bit closer. I also wouldn't mind seeing the initial TR and STK quests boosted up to level-bind them a bit more. At some point, Threnal was "end game" and so maybe having 8s and 10s mixed around was ok. Now though, it's a royal pain ... and Sorrowdusk going from 6-10 is a bit wide.

    I also would LOVE seeing Threnal boosted to about 15. That would fill a huge gap and people would run it like mad then.
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  17. #237
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    I would *LOVE* to see a balance in Threnal and Sorrowdusk to level-bind the quests a bit closer. I also wouldn't mind seeing the initial TR and STK quests boosted up to level-bind them a bit more. At some point, Threnal was "end game" and so maybe having 8s and 10s mixed around was ok. Now though, it's a royal pain ... and Sorrowdusk going from 6-10 is a bit wide.

    I also would LOVE seeing Threnal boosted to about 15. That would fill a huge gap and people would run it like mad then.
    Getting back on my Soapbox having campaigned for Level Changes for years now!

    STK
    ---

    Move Cloven Jaw Scourge: Kobold's Blockade and The Sacred Helm to Lvl 4.

    Tangleroot
    ----------

    Move First Strike and The Hobgoblins Captives to Lvl 4
    Reduce The Way to Yarkuch and Yarkuch's Last Stand to Lvl 6.

    Sorrowdusk
    -----------

    Move 1st two parts of Grey Moon to Lvl 7 - All of Grey Moon is Now Lvl 7!

    Move Captives of the Cult and Libram of the Six to Lvl 9
    Reduce Quenching the Flames & Church of the Fury to Lvl 9

    All of Cult of the Six is Now Lvl 9!

    Threnal
    -------

    Aaaaaargh - They're all over the Place!

    Move entire chain to Lvl 10! - May require upgrading early quests {P.S. Please STOP trying to break our Weapons! - Cold Iron of Everbright is NOT a Common combination!}

    Red Fens
    --------

    Move Into the Deep to Lvl 10

    Vault of Night
    --------------

    Move Tharaak Arena and the Prisoner to Lvl 9
    Move Jungle/Gateway to Khyber and Haywire Foundry to Lvl 10

    Sands of Menechtarun
    ---------------------

    Move Chamber of Rahmat to Lvl 11
    Move Offering of Blood to Lvl 12!


    Orchard of the Macabre
    ----------------------

    Move all four Flagging Quests to Lvl 15!
    Move Litany to Lvl 16
    Move Abbot to Lvl 18

    Vale of Twilight
    --------------

    For Goodness Sake get on with it and Epic Shroud already!

  18. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRMechMan View Post
    You want my feedback? Here it is, 30-40 lives worth of zerging. I own every pack, mostly from TP that was earned while TRing, and have played nearly every quest in almost every way possible, usually going for max xp/min. Solo elite bravery up to cap, in channel groups, guild group, pugs, with a backpack full of soulstones, as an arcane, divine, melee, you name it.

    It's something that has always bothered me about this game, and it's something I care a lot about as well.

    The main problem is that developers have no idea how long people take to complete different quests. The quests that are bad have ALWAYS been bad. In fact, an XP pass has been needed for YEARS and I think most players have just given up on one. Having some kind of formula to create the base xp of a quest based on length (which is often WAY wrong) and level is just-and I apologize for being blunt-stupid. You made the quest, you can't play through it to decide how much XP it should give? Cmon!

    XP/MIN is the ONLY thing that matters for a sizeable portion of players. Quest decor, loot, flavor, favor and everything else is secondary. When you are grinding out multiple lives, you go where the fast XP is. Smart zergers take EVERYTHING into account when it comes to xp/min-do I have to run to the quest?, can I box it?, is there a fail condition?, is it soloable?, can I pug it without ripping out my hair?, Do I get monster manual XP out of it? Can I shave off a minute here, a few seconds here, etc, etc...

    I find it especially ironic that this new list of quests-to-be-nerfed has a level 14 (meaning TR2s run it at 16 mostly) and 2 level 19 quests. The 16 to 20, and particularly the 18 to 20 grind is pretty awful.

    There is a lot more level 17-20 content, but much of it is very, very low XP per minute due to several things:

    -HP bloat. Level 18-19 quests have hundreds of thousands of hp that you have to chew through, making them slow.
    -Need to pug/inability to solo. Up to level 15-16, this game is very solo friendly on elite. After vale, not so much. This isn't a good or bad thing-pugging should be encouraged, but it does add to the time spent at these levels. Whether soloing and taking longer to kill stuff or waiting for groups to fill-if they do.
    -Low base XP. Some of these quests are not just long, with high hp mobs...in addition, their base XP is just LOW compared to other content
    -Eveningstar. Even with keys, hall of heroes etc, it's tough finding a group for these.

    More content doesn't matter to TRing players if it is terrible xp minute. I think one way the devs justify giving new quests terrible XP is that they are in addition to the old quests, and that it's OK that they just give 500xp/min or something similarly awful. That's not the right logic. If something isn't viable, people won't do it.
    If given a choice, people will go where the xp is: they simply will not run the bad xp content on a regular basis. When you look down at your xp log and you are getting way LESS xp/min at level 18-19 compared to level 3-4 and yet need 10x as MUCH xp, that is when people a) drink an XP pot b) play less c) ignore the packs with bad xp d) quit the game...does more people doing a) really justify the negative effects of b), c) and d)?

    Finally, I know that has a developer, you are innately concerned about the MONEY side of things. I get that. You want people to buy XP pots, XP tomes, slayer boosts and the like. If there was no grind and it was easy to TR, there is less incentive to buy those (basically) store items. This is not the right way to look at it. Hardcore TRs will ALWAYS buy a tome, once you have tasted tome XP there is no going back to before. Similarly, I don't think it would effect XP pot sales that much.
    Certainly having a healthier TR and pug scene is a bigger benefit than less people TRing and pugging but chugging an extra pot or two. Don't be afraid to change the status quo.
    Also, the faster players "run the lap" of the lives, the more they buy hearts of wood-and the more they stay motivated to keep playing. There is the risk of them getting their lives done faster, but there is less burnout...and that is something that should be top priority for turbine. BURNOUT=LOSS OF PROFITS
    Also, there are many people out there that WOULD TR (aka buy hearts of wood and XP pots), but have heard that the grind of levels 17-19 are too much. Keep that it mind.

    Here's a not-so-quick breakdown of all the heroic quests.

    Level1s:
    KORTHOS Overall it's not bad, everything is quick and it is part of the TRing ritual and good favor so I do it.
    Quests skipped?
    Misery's Peak (The run out there, the ton of levers and running around, waiting for dialogues, etc....it's just not worth it. Which is a shame, because it's a very cool quest)
    Suggestions?
    As with almost any timed quest, Cannith Crystal could use a bump. Every other lvl1 quest here is zerged in 1 minute, 2 minutes tops.

    Level2s:
    HARBOR/MARKETPLACE Harbor is fine, just stop moving everything around
    Quests skipped?
    Arachnophobia (173 base xp, NO BRAVERY possible...I end up doing it for favor, maybe)
    Suggestions?
    It's fine, I do every quest at this level.

    Level3s:
    CATACOMBS It's fine, bravery really helped this chain. The last lvl4 one should give more-it's fast, and easy, but 120base on elite is a joke.
    CERULEAN HILLS Both are fine.
    SACRED HELM/REDFANG/SIGNET All are fine.

    Quests skipped?
    Kobold Assault (Takes 5-10x longer than most other quests in the harbor, only 1528 base xp. If the spawns didn't slow down dramatically during the last 30-50 kills this would be a bit better but as of right now, it's terrible.
    Suggestions
    Boost Kobold Assault (double it and/or fix it), make the STK part1 level 4 (or 5), and raise the level of the first 2 parts of tangleroot, as well. Overall, level3s are fine.

    Level4s:
    SHARN Is fine. All are pretty quick. Stand your ground could use a boost (again, timed quest=bad xp/min for competent players)
    DEPTHS CHAIN Also fine, all are 1-2min
    IRESTONE Fine, especially with group.
    FRESHEN THE AIR Fine, and fun, I love this quest.
    WATERWORKS All parts are good.
    PROOF IS IN THE POISON It's OK. Tougher than any quest up to this point but decent XP overall.
    Quests Skipped?
    Occasionally Rest for the Restless, but only due to the lever, not the XP (maybe boost it to encourage pugging)
    Suggestions
    None, xp/min is fine here, no real stinkers.

    Level5s
    3BC I skip all of it almost every life. It's just not good xp, no way around it. BOOST IT. It has a giant and awesome explorer area and I've met many people that don't own this pack...cause it's terribad xp.
    NECRO1 I do all of these, all are good. Burning could use a slight boost...it gives LESS than the other 3 despite it being the one that needs multiple players or hireling/pet positioning...not sure how that happened in the first place (and has been that way for half a decade or so...)
    CARNIVAL All are fine. A bit longer than most quests up to this point but snitch/small prob/partycrashers are all 5-10min quests, tops. Bigtop could use a bit of love.
    STK Make parts 1 and 2 level5 as well, overall the XP is fine, particularly for the 3min part3...which gives more than the 6-8min part1 and 5-6min part2...weird...
    ARCHER PT/CHAMBER/LAIR All fine, all 1-2min quests
    Quests Skipped?
    Like I said, all of 3BC. Not even worth thinking about.
    Suggestions
    Just the 3BC thing...most quests here are fine.

    Level6s
    CAGED TROLLS/HERETICS/FORGOTTENCAVERNS/RUINED HALLS All fine. Particularly ruined halls.
    REDWILLOWS/BOUNTY/DEAD PREDS/MIRRAS Also all fine, all 2-3min
    DEVILS ASSAULT I bet you have the data on how many people run it at level6 heroic normal, right? I bet that amount of data is a very small amount because no one runs it, cause it's terrible xp/min. No bravery, 1900xp base, and it takes a LONG time to run...(hint: we don't needs 3minutes to shrine...)
    SORROWDUSK Again, push up the level of the first few, similar to STK and tangleroot.
    BLOODY CRYPT Fine, really nice xp in good group.
    GLADEWATCH/CHRONO/VALAKS Boost them all. Gladewatch has a fail condition, takes a long time, and only has ~1800 base xp. Meh... Chrono has good base xp, but people don't run it on heroic STILL, because most other quests at this level take under 5minutes to run. Valaks has lots of traps, levers and lots of mobs to kill that you can't zerg past easily. Only 1800 base xp.
    Quests skipped?
    Chrono, Valaks, Gladewatch.
    Suggestions
    At least boost gladewatch.

    Level7s
    TANGLEROOT Make the chain level 5 to 7. Forcing people to go there to run the first 2 at level 5 is silly. Overall, it's fine. Nerfing the run to zulkash? I'm absolutely ok with that, it takes 1 minute or less, and no mobs need to be killed...cut 20-30% of the base xp away and then boost the one with the prisoners by 50%.
    DELERAS The chain is fine. Make part1 level 7 to better match the rest of the chain.
    SENTINALS It's fine. BOB is fine...doesn't really need a boost compared to a lot of other quests...
    THE PIT Great quests. People either love it or hate it, the XP is fine. If people avoid it, it's not because of bad XP.
    TEARS/GWYLANS/GRAVEROBBER All are solid.
    TAMING THE FLAMES Needs a bit of a boost...or at least changing how you need to run across the map 3 times to talk to the npc/kill bosses/get keys, etc. Streamline it, having to talk to an npc in 1 corner of the map to unlock the boss, and after killing the boss having to run BACK to the npc is tedious and unfun.
    Quests Skipped?
    None
    Suggestions
    Just change tangleroot levels and boost taming the flames.

    Level8s
    KORROMAR Not bad. The ops are small but add up, it's worth running once.
    XORIAN Great quest, somewhat tough, and needs group usually, but good xp rewards.
    STORMCLEAVE/STROMVAULDS Both fun and good xp.
    VON1/2 Both are fine. Von1 a bit low-waves spawn slowly-but not terrible
    NECRO2 Ranges from OK to great. Change the flagging so that you don't need to redo all 4 quests every time you do shadow crypt.
    FAITHFUL DEPARTED Longish quest comparatively, fail condition, 2,266 base xp??! So with bravery it's worth like what...4-5 shadow crypt or von3 ops? And you wonder why no one does it?
    THRENAL Some quests are actually pretty decent xp. It's just the 15minute one that gives almost nothing and has a fail condition that makes people avoid it. That one could do with a MASSIVE boost...~5x it's base xp would make it ~1k/min...and thus MEDIOCRE xp. Developers have never understood how quickly the best players mow through content.
    Quests Skipped?
    Threnal, faithful departed.
    Suggestions?
    Boost threnal (parts that need it)

    Level9s
    RED FENS All are fine. Boost the demon op in into the deep...it's genuinely challenging at level, even solo.
    SHADOW CRYPT Nerfing it would just cause anger. Obviously it's very good xp/min, but I think the solution is to buff other quests. Although, a nerf here would cause some TRs to shift their quest lists which wouldn't be a terrible thing.
    VON3/4 Both are fine. Von3 in particular is also very good xp but same thing as SC applies.
    KEEPERS SANCTUARY/CHURCH AND THE CULT Boosting keepers wouldn't be a bad idea but it's not terrible.
    Quests skipped?
    None
    Suggestions?
    It's probably tempting to nerf VON3/shadow crypt. Don't...level 10 quests being terrible makes up for it.

    Level10s
    SORROWDUSK The chain as a whole is fine. But the 6/6/7/7/8/8/9/9/10/10 setup has to go. Also, condense the area a bit, when you spend more time running to the quest (and back) then in the actual quest, something is wrong.
    HiPS Could use a boost, it's kinda tough and has low base xp.
    VON5/6 Part5 is fine. Part6 is...also fine, but I'd think forming a raid group and slaying a red dragon in an extraplanar vault deserves more.
    TEMPESTS SPINE It's fine. Quite solo/duoable and decent xp
    ATRAXIAS Both are OK. Quite quick if you know where to go.
    RESTLESS ISLES They're alright xp/min quests, but you gotta go through the isles to get there....also, the beholder op is bugged last I checked.
    SANDS TOMB UNO It's fine, 1min quest with invis.

    Quests skippped?
    Restless isles, HiPS. Sometimes Sorrowdusk. Level 9 is just better on the whole than level 10 so it's easier to bank xp (as it is from levels 8 to 20 anyway)
    Suggestions?
    Boost restless isles, maybe HiPS. Change sorrowdusk to something more bravery friendly-and change the location of the quest turn-in dudes to save us time and prevent boredom.

    Level11s
    OOB/CARAVAN/MARAUD/SANDS TOMB DOS/PURGE/RAID VULK All fine. Pretty nice xp. Caravan is about the only timed quest that is any good-other timed quests should be reevaluated based on that.
    DEAD SHALL RISE/BEYOND THE GRAVE beyond the grave could use a bit, even with 4 people running to use the pyres it's only OK. Solo, it's pretty awful.
    NECRO3 All are fine.
    WHISPERDOOM/DREAMS/ENEMY WITHIN All 3 are fine.
    MADE TO ORDER Awesome quest, tough traps+enemies, and a base xp of...about 1/2 of other quests around this level. No named loot, the only saving grace is that there are dwarves and those give monster manual xp. Boost it anyway.
    Quests Skipped?
    Made to order if no trapper/not evasionist
    Suggestions?
    Overall, a very nice level for XP quests.

    Level12s
    LORDSMARCH F2P CHAIN No changes needed.
    WIZKING/DQ1/DQ2 Also fine. DQ2 being boosted would be fine...it's very hard to solo at level, and getting a group to do it is difficult as well. The loot is not enough reason for most people TRing to do it...xp is needed, as well.
    CHAINS OF FLAME A 50% boost would convince people to run it more. It's the longest quest at this level and has a 5-6minute run to get there.
    INVADERS/RELIC Both good xp.
    TITAN PRERAID/RAID I must admit I have never done these. That fact alone means it is probably not enough xp to justify running it at level. Actually, I don't think I've seen more than about 5 lfms for this raid, EVER, at any level.
    CURSED CRYPT It's fine.
    Quests skipped
    Titan, sometimes Chains/DQ1/DQ2, sometimes cursed crypt.
    Suggestions?
    Raids should give GREAT xp, not average xp an certainly not mediocre xp.

    Level13s
    GIANTHOLD WALKUPS All are fine, most are in the 3-5 minute range and solid xp
    LORDSMARCH P2P CHAIN All are fine. Undermine is fine as is, but I won't say no to a boost (although others need it far more)
    MIRED IN KOBS It's fine. Can certainly be done in less than 4 minutes solo, on elite. The Mama dragon optional should give far more xp than it does though as it takes a long time.
    Quests skipped
    None.
    Suggestions?
    Just boost the mama dragon op. Other than that, everything is good xp.

    Level14s
    Necro4 All 4 quests are good XP. VOL>GHOSTS>FLESHMAKER>INFERNO, generally. But all 4 are fine. Nerf vol? I understand... Even at -80% perma-ransack it's better XP than most content, which is a sign that the XP is too high. But only nerf it by 10-20% at most. Don't kill it off. People respond to incentives and ~-10-20% would be balancing.
    CABAL/POP/MADSTONE/CRUCIBLE All fine.
    TOR/REAVERS At level duo or trio reavers is good fun. +50% raid xp bonus, cmon!
    Quests skipped
    Often reavers fate, sometimes crucible. Occasionally inferno.
    Suggestions?
    Again, raids should give GREAT xp, not average xp an certainly not mediocre xp.

    Level15s
    ACID WIT/DELIRIUM HP bloat starts to rear its ugly head here...beholder boss with 46k...not fun, just boring...it barely fights back!
    SHAR/ESCAPE PLAN/SHADOW OF A DOUBT All struck me as quite low. Maybe a small boost.
    HARBINGER CHAIN Missing is good, fear factory is OK, sinister storage is mediocre, in the flesh is good (but difficult!)
    Quests skipped
    Probably won't bother with the eveningstar ones, even with a key.
    Suggestions?
    At level in the flesh is awesome, but quite hard...should have awesome xp to match as it's the end of a chain as well.

    Level16s
    VALE All are fine. The base xp of these quests on elite (10,036, 7,659, 8,020, 9,099, 7,299) should be THE golden standard for medium/longish quests at levels 16-19. The fact that far LONGER, HIGHER LEVEL and more DIFFICULT quests are routinely giving ~1/2 the base xp of these quests-or less-is silly.
    EVENINGSTAR FLAGGING Lords of dust, SOTO, spinner and beyond the rift are all fine. SOTO is fine, it's very fast and not too difficult with now nerfed endfight . Elminster talks too much.
    WHELOON Nothing struck me as great xp. Compared to vale it was more difficult as well (but maybe just becuse it was solo elite bravery and my first time ). Don't be afraid to make new content as good xp as old content! I DID like these quests, they just didn't give great xp sadly.
    Quests skipped
    Always will do vale and eveningstar flagging, might skip wheloon.
    Suggestions?
    Boost wheloon!

    Level17s
    RR Monestary and ETK are both great xp and great fun. Prey could use a BIT of a boost and Stealer of Souls could to-cause right now NO ONE runs it and flagging for it is a pain.
    REIGN OF MADNESS Sane Asylum is great, Lord of Stone is OK (but a boost is fine), Acute Delirium is tough and could use a bump, Lord of Eyes as well.
    ABBOT/SHROUD Again, a raid, at level, is really hard to pull off....and you can't really farm it (and if they do, you win turbine, so encourage this!)...so a base like...15k-20k would be reasonable...not 10k for shroud or 7k or whatever the hell abbot gives.
    DRUIDS DEEP CHAIN 3,366, 2,429, 3,086, 5,233 Just mediocre across the board, and HP bloat definitely starting to add to quest completion time. +50% to each would be reasonable considering the amount of XP needed at these levels...
    Quests skipped
    Abbot, probably druids, acute delirium, lord of eyes, stealer of souls, prey.
    Suggestions?
    Both raids need to give massive rewards for being ran at level.

    Level18s
    IQ1 4,102, 4,102, 4,102, 4,450 4,450 Not terrible, but not great. Some are quick but none give repeatable XP. This is basically bottom of the barrel XP for the most part. It's also pretty clear based on those numbers that some kind of forumula is in use-which I find to be laughably facepalmrific.
    HOX/VOD Would it be repetitive if I said that raids need to give better xp at heroic levels? Yes, it would be, but it bears repeating.
    HIGH ROAD 3,483, 5,416, 4,798, 3,193, 6,093 How do those 5 numbers compare to vale? (*cough*, lower) Are these quests more difficult? (yes) Is much more xp needed at level 18 compared to 16? (yes) Do they take as long, or longer? (yes, generally).
    DEMONS DEN This quest is so, so cool on elite. It's awesome. Really tough solo, and in a group of less than 3 people quite tough too...even full pug it's tough. It takes time, it's stressful, and a hell of a lot of fun. Base XP on elite? 4.6k.
    Quests skipped
    Ideally, all of it. Good TRs cap in vale, or at worst, off of monestary/ETK. When the ideal path is avoiding a quest, that quest has something wrong with it.
    Suggestions?
    Both raids need to give massive rewards for being ran at level. Other quests need to move the XP bar more than 1/15th of a rank for doing an elite bravery run. Getting 7-8k for an elite quest when you need 100k+ for a rank...it sucks, no other way to put it. Demons den gets avoided...double it's XP and people might step up to the plate.

    Level19s
    AMRATH Awesome quests, tough enemies, often less than great rewards. Sins is good-can pound out a 5min elite solo if you know your stuff. New invasion and Genesis are OK. Bastion needs a boost. The two side silverflame quests need boosts-happy to see those on the list!
    IQ2 DOES NOT NEED A NERF! Reclaiming memories is AVERAGE XP-less than vale and less than RR. The monkey quest is GOOD xp but nothing amazing. ARE YOU REALLY NERFING LEVEL 19 quest XP???? We need 500k+ at this level, changing the base XP of these quests from 4.5k to 3.5k is quite faceslappy It doesn't matter if you added stormhorns/eveningstar/cannith quests when they are miserable XP, too...
    STORMHORNS Painful hp bloat. Not particularly difficult, just take time. Some of them are in the (sadly familiar) range of ~3.5-4.5k base xp. I'm not sure who decided that was fair, or balanced. The glacier ones are all right.
    THE RIDDLE/MURDER BY NIGHT Both ~4k base XP iirc. HP bloat in full effect here.
    CANNITH Glad to see some of these on the list. Fighting non-neg levelable warforged with several thousand XP takes a long time if solo, and even in a good group these quests are fairly difficult.
    MA and LOB need to give INSANE XP at level for heroic characters. If you organize and complete an elite MA or LOB *AT LEVEL* that is amazing, and probably spent a few hours doing it. A full level 19 rank is hardly too much to ask for IMO. That would be 100k or so xp...so make these each ~20-25k base xp. Hell, make 'em 30k...People might actually run the content you make...gasp!

    That's all...for now.

    Till we meet again, developers.

    -Mech

    I agreed with most of this, but cannot believe you glazed over the level 15 quests as acceptable. Level 9 quests give 6-9k base xp with good optional xp... then this gradually declines with both quests available and xp/quest and probably xp/min until you hit vale. the xp at 10 is not as good as 9. The xp at 11 is not as good as 10. The xp at 12 is good, but only because of wiz king (lordsmarch is awful, though the quests are fun so I run them anyway). 13 is worse yet, and again, lordsmarch is awful xp. 14 is okay because gianthold quests give nice xp; I personally skip necro IV except for vol because they are more trouble than they are worth unless you can find a TR PUG. I run Vol, not because it's exceptional XP but because it's one of only a handful of quests at level that I run... frankly I still use wiz king here to get through level. 15 is awful... just awful. There are only a handful of quests and every one of them SUCKS for XP. Something I learned better last life is I don't really have to hold 18 to run these crappy quests ad nauseum because vale gives such good XP I can skip ahead and run vale to 20 (skipping all 17, 18, and 19 level quests that also give sucky XP compared to epic).

    Someone should look at the correlation of xp/level, which is horribly broken as illustrated above and viewable here. Also look at the # of quests / level and total base xp/level. Maybe when I have more time I'll construct a list of base xp by level and xp required by level and a ratio for easy comparison. I know without looking that you'll find that level 15 quests leave you stranded on an island compared to all others.

    And yes, of course hold for reinforcements needs a huge boost.
    Last edited by Inoukchuk; 10-15-2013 at 02:47 PM.

  19. #239

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    It occurs to me that the "length" of quest the xp formula uses may not be time at all, but physical distance you have to run. What other explanation for Hold for Reinforcements?

    This idle thought crashes and burns on closer scrutiny: Kobold Assault and Swiped Signet have essentially the same base xp, and so do Gladewatch Outpost and Dead Girl's Spellbook.

    But I can't figure out for the life of me how Hold For Reinforcements has the base XP it has if it's based in any way on a formula.

  20. #240
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    It occurs to me that the "length" of quest the xp formula uses may not be time at all, but physical distance you have to run. What other explanation for Hold for Reinforcements?

    This idle thought crashes and burns on closer scrutiny: Kobold Assault and Swiped Signet have essentially the same base xp, and so do Gladewatch Outpost and Dead Girl's Spellbook.

    But I can't figure out for the life of me how Hold For Reinforcements has the base XP it has if it's based in any way on a formula.
    that would make DA the same xp as Hold for Reinforcements, but DA base xp is almost 3.5x that. both are the same quest concept except 1 is for NPC protection.

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