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  1. #161
    Community Member Satyriasys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    I call BS!

    You talk about Epic quests, yet of the 20 quests you listed (4 decreased, 16 increased) only 5 or 6 (Spies in the House?) even have an Epic button, and none are exclusively Epic. If your point is really to address Epic quest XP as your opening statement claims, why are you predominantly focusing on Heroic dungeons?
    It's in the op..

    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleFooz View Post
    This is only a first-phase list. We are considering other dungeons we’re looking at for a post-U20 second phase XP increase.
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  2. #162
    Community Member Saravis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tammyaline View Post
    Think of all the people who worked on their completionists ... the ones that had to put the FULL amount of time in. I'm not talking about the ones that had tomes of learning, xp stones, or bravery bonuses ... I'm talking about the ones that came before and had zero advantage with exception of maybe paying a decent amount of money in XP pots and too much time on their hands.
    I feel for those people, but they have to accept that's just how things work. Its no different from purchasing technology. It'll always go down in price after you purchase it. There will always be a better model released after you purchase it. You can raise an uproar about it or just accept that that is just how things work.

  3. #163
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satyriasys View Post
    It's in the op..
    Nothing in that "first phase" segment indicates the 2nd+ phases will be any more epic focused than phase 1. I don't like the approach of "we've been looking at Epic xp, so here's the list of mostly Heroic quests we're altering." Now granted, the (upward) adjustments listed are a good thing, but the fishy Epic chatter to introduce Heroic modifications has my "uh-oh" senses tingling...
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  4. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Some clarifications:

    We are likely to reduce the total amount of XP needed for 2nd and 3rd life characters to reach level 20.
    Good news; I sense the hesitation to promise. Please make this change substantial and not just window dressing - don't go half way on it. I am confident you'll make good money on your newest best seller, HoW.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    We didn't focus a great deal on how much each quest is being run. The focus was on the XP earned and completion times for those who did play these quests.
    It's too bad you couldn't take a more 'big picture' approach. This approach, to me, means it might be easy to miss the forest for the trees. I think MrMech's breakdown earlier in this thread is a good starting point, along with many other constructive comments.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    It's fine and great for you guys to keep up with the suggestions! Thank you.
    Thank you for acknowledgment and reading. Please continue to keep us ahead in the loop.
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  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    I call BS!

    You talk about Epic quests, yet of the 20 quests you listed (4 decreased, 16 increased) only 5 or 6 (Spies in the House?) even have an Epic button...


    I speculate *yet*...

  6. #166
    Community Member dlsidhe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Nothing in that "first phase" segment indicates the 2nd+ phases will be any more epic focused than phase 1. I don't like the approach of "we've been looking at Epic xp, so here's the list of mostly Heroic quests we're altering." Now granted, the (upward) adjustments listed are a good thing, but the fishy Epic chatter to introduce Heroic modifications has my "uh-oh" senses tingling...
    The way I read it was "We're adjusting Epic XP by changing how the quest length factors into the total XP granted, as we discovered that calculation never worked the way we intended. Thus, longer Epic quests will now grant more XP, and shorter Epic quests will now grant less. In addition we are tweaking the following Heroic quests' XP for various reasons concerning difficulty, etc. This is the first round of Heroic tweaking; a second round is imminent."

    ETA: From the OP, with key phrases highlighted

    We took a hard look at DDO’s epic dungeons – why were some dungeons giving out less XP than we want, and others more? We’ve discovered an unintended constant in the XP formula that prevented longer quest XP from scaling up as much as desired over shorter quest XP. We removed this constant, and scaled up the quest length multiplier. So starting with Update 20, longer epic quests will be worth more XP and shorter quests will be worth less. For comparison, this is more in line with how heroic quests have always scaled their XP between shorter and longer quests.

    The next issue we’ve been working on is the ability to change the base XP reward of a live dungeon without side effects. Only recently have we been able to change base XP without altering the amount of favor that players have already earned. We’ve also crossed the hurdle of being able to do it without breaking the formulas for increasing XP with higher difficulties, or with playing in Epic mode. This issue is what had prevented us from being able to address certain dungeons that were worth too little XP, as well as too much XP in a few cases. But now we’ve solved all these problems, and the first batch of dungeon base XP changes will be released in Update 20.
    Last edited by dlsidhe; 10-09-2013 at 03:40 PM.
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  7. #167
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tammyaline View Post
    After thinking about this, with all the complaining I have been hearing about unfair advantages lately and using exploits to advantage some players, maybe this isn't a good thing.

    Think of all the people who worked on their completionists ... the ones that had to put the FULL amount of time in. I'm not talking about the ones that had tomes of learning, xp stones, or bravery bonuses ... I'm talking about the ones that came before and had zero advantage with exception of maybe paying a decent amount of money in XP pots and too much time on their hands.

    I'm surprised there isn't a bit of flack about this as that's a ton of time and money to them. Not that I have one lol .... but still!
    Who cares about those who had to walk both ways up hill in the snow.

    Gimmeh my lowered XP!

  8. #168
    Community Member Spoonwelder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirgog View Post




    Inferno is quicker than Fleshmakers in my experience.

    Generally Inferno takes me 13-14 min solo, 10-12 min leading a PUG, and 5 min leading a channel group with at least two other people that know it well. One minute more for Elite (increased Cinderspawn beatdown time as they do not disrupt until under 1000hp), and one minute more if scrolls are needed for lighting/extinguishing.

    Fleshmakers generally takes 12-15 min leading a PUG as most PUGs are deadweight against the golems, plus there are ALWAYS deaths on the elite traps. Channel groups take ~8 min, and they still tend to have issues with the air elemental switches taking multiple tries to get (unless someone charms ALL the air elementals).

    Of course, as a puzzle quest, Inferno takes a long time if you need to figure it out, similar to Crucible or Sane Asylum. Puzzle quests are extremely difficult to set XP for.
    I guess I should caveat Inferno - I rarely run it with more than one other person - if I plan to run it I put up the LFM (if I feel like pugging) and then buff and hit the Orchard - if someone has joined me by then great - if not I solo. I can't be bothered to wait for a full group of people who don't know the quest well enough to split (hell I don't know anything but the one path after 4 years of playing). So most often its a duo - I could see that it could be much faster in a knowledgeable group but my litmus was 'moderately competent'. 20min is averaging in non-UMD melee types - on an arcane yeah 15min would be a fair benchmark.

    Fleshmakers - this one I will regularly PUG or join PUGS - any form of caster makes the Golems trivial - otherwise an AGA and a cleaver cleans up fine. For the traps where I may not always build for UMD I usually build for reflex saves, add a prot elements pot/spell and I get through the electrical traps fine (blade traps are easily timed)- with a group its one maybe two tries at the runes to get the end fight. First elite run maybe 7min - farms 5-6.....this to me is a quest you can do at run speed.

    As for the person who has trouble with GOP - in a group of 6 (much easier to fill than Inferno and deadweight is less of an issue than in Inferno as well) with 2-3 capable of decent ranged damage (spells or arrows) most times the ice breaks before you hit the floor and even have to swing at the beholder. Soloing/Duoing on melees is much harder.....hirelings are nigh useless in that one and yes in that case dealing with his rays actually becomes an issue. But my biggest issue in there isn't ever the beholder - on elite - oneshot polar rays from the Ice Reavers - that will kill me well before the beholder as there are 3-4 of them and you are usually ignoring them trying to take down the beholder fast. By the time you get to that point you are usually out of spell absorb charges (mantle) or would be shortly if you don't take out the beholder super fast which then makes the reavers redundant.

    And though I like to play fast(ish) I am by no means a min-maxer super zerger laugh at the content type - elite quests normally(beyond level 10) usually cause me some trouble in some way shape or form. But these three Orchard quests, once you know them, are very simple and though they have different spots creating difficulties they are all readily doable very fast with a 'moderately competent' group.
    gotta to kick at the darkness til it bleeds daylight - B. Cockburn
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  9. #169
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    How about instead of lower any quests XP, you just let them be?

    Not everything has to be "some pain for some gain".

    Almost no one ever in the history of this game has mentioned a quest having to high of an XP amount.

    And since your on a system change kick, please consider this:

    You wrecked the randomization of loot. You may not believe it but I have not met anyone in game who prefers the new system. From guild to channel to pugs. Nobody. A few tweaks could have made it better but you went full on "Building a China shop in the middle of the running with the bulls route". Please do not repeat this with XP. I tell my nephews and I was told growing up that if I break it, I buy it. If you continue the trend you have started with the loot, your going to break the game (more so than now) and your going to eventually pay for it with your jobs (as in much, much sooner than it could be).

  10. #170
    Community Member Phaeton_Seraph's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Some clarifications:

    We are likely to reduce the total amount of XP needed for 2nd and 3rd life characters to reach level 20.

    We didn't focus a great deal on how much each quest is being run. The focus was on the XP earned and completion times for those who did play these quests.

    XP and Favor have long been tied together. The XP formula also brings in factors such as quest length, quest level, quest difficulty, and some constants. There's a few other minor factors as well. In the cases where we are changing some of the XP, we now have the ability to override some of these factors and more directly set the XP values.

    It is not our thinking that these changes cover all issues. It's fine and great for you guys to keep up with the suggestions! Thank you.
    Well then, you should consider how much (or rather little) certain quests are being run. Chains like those in the Reaver's Refuge get so little play that it's near impossible to get a party to run it these days.

    Then again, it could just be the rewards that need seeing to.

  11. #171
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buffyanne View Post
    A couple things I would like to see -

    The current end game raid, FoT starts with its story way back in the Waterworks. It is very cool that something so small as Venn's bloody message eventually leads up to the top raid in the game. All of the Motu content leads up to the final confrontation with Lolth and it feels very satisfying to defeat her in a widely used end game raid. Right now THE major storyline in Eberron, the devil invasion, is basically left unconcluded because people never run Amarath. There are 5 raids associated with this! (chronoscope,abbott, vod, shroud and ToD) yet no emphasis is placed on getting to see the ToD conclusion. I would like to see a Devils saga that includes the all vale quests, the shroud, vod, all the ToD flagging quests and ToD. (I leave out abbott because it's broken quite a bit of the time and chronoscope isn't condusive to be played on heroic levels) Completing this saga should yield a lot of xp, like 500K on all elite. This way by doing the L17+ heroic end game, you more or less finish the eberron storyline and you have the xp needed to finish your 3rd life TR and move onto epic levels.
    5 Vale flaggers Elite that's a cake walk
    4 Elite Amarth Quests that are rarely run heroic
    Elite Shroud
    Elite Vod (anyone still run this?)
    Elite TOD

    yeah I don't see my self completing that saga on any heroic life ever.

    I like Gainthold saga because it contains only GH quests and it does not include Reavers Fate <have not run this raid once this year its just not worth the effort to form a group when better XP is elsewhere.

    I will welcome any and all sagas that come but, what your suggesting is a Saturday night raid train (plus flagging) for a saga.

    500K XP better be the reward

  12. #172
    Community Member tammyaline's Avatar
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    Another way to bring some attention to certain chains again would be to add bonuses to the XP. This week Reaver quests ... Next the sands.... etc

    Might be tough to manage for turbine ... I don't know enough about that to say but could help a bit and bring back some of the fun quests that are just left out.

  13. #173
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaeton_Seraph View Post
    Well then, you should consider how much (or rather little) certain quests are being run. Chains like those in the Reaver's Refuge get so little play that it's near impossible to get a party to run it these days.

    Then again, it could just be the rewards that need seeing to.
    Reavers Refuge is generally where I cap my legend lives if I don't cap in Vale. its damn good XP...

    getting them completed on Elite can be a bit of a pain depending on your build.

  14. #174

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    ...We are likely to reduce the total amount of XP needed for 2nd and 3rd life characters to reach level 20....
    Please do. This is the greatest source of fear for the general population of DDO players.

    As a Triple Completionist perspective, you will never ever hear me say that you made it too easy for those following my path,
    instead you will hear me say, the more, the merrier, welcome to the party.

  15. #175
    Hero nibel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dlsidhe View Post
    Question: How would this affect characters currently in the midst of a TR?
    If it works like the first XP requirements, when they dropped level 1 and 2 by 10k XP, you basically will get free ranks based on your actual XP earned.

    Basically, they are not killing what you farmed. Just moving the goalpost closer to you.
    Main: Amossa d'Cannith, Sarlona, casually trying Completionist [<o>]

    Almost-never-played-alts: Arquera - Chapolin - Fabber - Herweg - Mecanico - Tenma

    I want DDO to be a better game. Those are my personal suggestions on: Ammunition, Archmage, Combat Stances, Deities, Dispel Magic, Epic Destiny Map, Fast Healing, Favor, Favored Enemy, Half-elf Enhancements, Monk Stances, Past Life, Potency, Potions, Ranger Spells, Summons, Tiered Loot.

  16. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverleafeon View Post
    Please do. This is the greatest source of fear for the general population of DDO players.

    As a Triple Completionist perspective, you will never ever hear me say that you made it too easy for those following my path,
    instead you will hear me say, the more, the merrier, welcome to the party.
    thats very cool of you cudos my friend.

    your friend sil

  17. #177

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Who cares about those who had to walk both ways up hill in the snow.

    Gimmeh my lowered XP!
    The Troll has spoken; all hail The Troll...

  18. #178
    Hero nibel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drwaz99 View Post
    Almost no one ever in the history of this game has mentioned a quest having to high of an XP amount.
    You need to meet more people.
    Main: Amossa d'Cannith, Sarlona, casually trying Completionist [<o>]

    Almost-never-played-alts: Arquera - Chapolin - Fabber - Herweg - Mecanico - Tenma

    I want DDO to be a better game. Those are my personal suggestions on: Ammunition, Archmage, Combat Stances, Deities, Dispel Magic, Epic Destiny Map, Fast Healing, Favor, Favored Enemy, Half-elf Enhancements, Monk Stances, Past Life, Potency, Potions, Ranger Spells, Summons, Tiered Loot.

  19. #179
    Community Member lyrecono's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    I call BS!

    You talk about Epic quests, yet of the 20 quests you listed (4 decreased, 16 increased) only 5 or 6 (Spies in the House?) even have an Epic button, and none are exclusively Epic. If your point is really to address Epic quest XP as your opening statement claims, why are you predominantly focusing on Heroic dungeons?
    hmmmm, he does have a point here, is this a typo or is there something else going on here?
    Could we get a clarification on this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Drwaz99 View Post
    How about instead of lower any quests XP, you just let them be?

    Not everything has to be "some pain for some gain".

    Almost no one ever in the history of this game has mentioned a quest having to high of an XP amount.

    And since your on a system change kick, please consider this:

    You wrecked the randomization of loot. You may not believe it but I have not met anyone in game who prefers the new system. From guild to channel to pugs. Nobody. A few tweaks could have made it better but you went full on "Building a China shop in the middle of the running with the bulls route". Please do not repeat this with XP. I tell my nephews and I was told growing up that if I break it, I buy it. If you continue the trend you have started with the loot, your going to break the game (more so than now) and your going to eventually pay for it with your jobs (as in much, much sooner than it could be).
    Another good point, i hear nothing but negative responses on my server on the new loot system and the named loot in the latest 2 packs (that you guys called an expansion)
    The place is deserted, lfm is a wasteland, even shrouds aren't filling anymore, let alone Citw/FoT. all i hear around me is people taking a break, starting another game (Path of Exile? seems popular).
    If it wasn't for that stupid daily dice these people wouldn't even have bothered to log on.
    The track record doesn't help your case either, we keep up coming with good idea's but somehow they get implemented twisted and bugged if at all, as a whole, people lose trust in you.
    You give us a test server, we feedback all the problems, it doesn't even get addressed, why bother asking our opinion? Why ask us to put in time to do your testing if you don't use the info?
    Why come up with game affecting changes and not first fix stuff that's broken? Why not (positively) change the things we have asked for the last couple of years? or at least give us some proper feedback on it?
    (P.S. not Wayfinder)



    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Some clarifications:

    We are likely to reduce the total amount of XP needed for 2nd and 3rd life characters to reach level 20.

    We didn't focus a great deal on how much each quest is being run. The focus was on the XP earned and completion times for those who did play these quests.

    XP and Favor have long been tied together. The XP formula also brings in factors such as quest length, quest level, quest difficulty, and some constants. There's a few other minor factors as well. In the cases where we are changing some of the XP, we now have the ability to override some of these factors and more directly set the XP values.

    It is not our thinking that these changes cover all issues. It's fine and great for you guys to keep up with the suggestions! Thank you.
    We are likely....
    likely...
    likely as in soon?

    The focus was on the XP earned and completion times for those who did play these quests.
    Hmmmm...
    Ofc those are going to have more exp earned, they are run often because the exp/min is ok-ish, after you have ran the good ones.
    after all these runs we became better at it, we ran it faster and faster, just to get that last level over with. It's just too much exp needed!
    How often do you think we'd be able to run those with the current exp repeat penalty we have?
    most people i spoke in game about this topic don't even believe you anymore and expect a 100k reduction for third life tr's at best and not at lv 17-20 but spread around all 19 levels.
    why haven't the exp reductions been posted before this one? it would have helped a lot with restoring of the trust of your (paying) player base instead of creating a lot of unrest.
    Now the damage is done (we basically assume these changes will happen) when will you start fixing it and more importantly, how?

    I remember your way of combating lag was nerfing a class into the ground, to the point where rangers were excluded from raids and ridiculed in parties.

    I remember when someone added nightmare to the loot tables without checking the impact, without testing a pair of rapiers, the "fix" was nerfing the effect.
    I agree the effect was to powerful to proc on a critt but instead of changing so that the Terror great sword would at least kept working as it always had, you took another (mediocre) tool out of the hands of struggling melee's.

    I can keep going on about all the actions you took that has sent so many good community members packing.
    I Play this game for fun and to escape the harsh real world, where i have seen to many good people depart before their time but lately art seems to imitate life.
    The "who" tab in my social panel is emptier then i would care to admit

    i don't expect a reaction from Dev's but could you bother to take something positive from this and do something with it?

    on another note: i heard PoE has great character customization options, how's the costs for this game? a monthly fee or f2p?
    Last edited by lyrecono; 10-09-2013 at 05:23 PM. Reason: typo fixed

  20. #180
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=lyrecono;5127734


    Another good point, i hear nothing but negative responses on my server on the new loot system and the named loot in the latest 2 packs (that you guys called an expansion)
    The place is deserted, lfm is a wasteland, even shrouds aren't filling anymore, let alone Citw/FoT. all i hear around me is people taking a break, starting another game (Path of Exile? seems popular).
    If it wasn't for that stupid daily dice these people wouldn't even have bothered to log on.
    The track record doesn't help your case either, we keep up coming with good idea's but somehow they get implemented twisted and bugged if at all, as a whole, people lose trust in you.
    You give us a test server, we feedback all the problems, it doesn't even get addressed, why bother asking our opinion? Why ask us to put in time to do your testing if you don't use the info?
    Why come up with game affecting changes and not first fix stuff that's broken? Why not (positively) change the things we have asked for the last couple of years? or at least give us some proper feedback on it?
    (P.S. not Wayfinder)[/QUOTE]

    all good questions, but they will go unanswered. i get that we, as players, don't have the insight like the devs do about the inner workings of codes and business strategies. we may not realize it, but too much of a good thing is potentially bad for DDO. too much of a bad thing is dangerous for Turbine. i know some of them do play DDO, but i don't think they have the proper insight either with what the players want and need. somewhere in the middle is a big problem area for them.

    Lammania is a preview server BTW.

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