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  1. #101
    The Hatchery sirgog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyr View Post
    Optional XP should not have ANY TIE to base xp of a quest. Optionals can be either long or short regardless of the quest length itself. For example, Von3 has some very 'short' optionals which are on the path. They are worth a decent amount (unlike say half the optionals in tangleroot) entirely due to the base xp of the quest which really should be irrelevant when considering optional value.

    You hit on the basic right idea in post (long optionals off the beaten path worth more and tough optionals worth more while short easy on the main path optionals worth less), but then mucked the whole thing up by tying it to base xp which would then muck those values up based upon the quests length/difficulty.
    The more I think about this the more it makes sense.

    Although some quests have big XP optionals (A New Invasion comes to mind), the current system does not take into account that some optionals scale much more (or less) with difficulty level than the quest as a whole does.

    As an example, heroic elite VON3 is much harder than heroic hard VON3, but the "Kill Chacter Luridae" optional is almost exactly the same difficulty on the two settings. Or for an example that is the other way around, Epic Normal Gianthold Tor is of a pretty comparable difficulty to Epic Hard, but the dragon optionals are considerably more difficult on EH than EN.

    For this reason, I think heroic elite VON3's completion XP could be quite a bit more than heroic hard (perhaps 40% more), but Chacter Luridae should offer only 5% more at most, while the Tor dragons could do with quite significant XP increases on EE, EH and HE.


    A proper pass of XP would likely consist of two Devs and/or GMs - one of whom has multiple TRed toons of their own, the other with no capped 36 pointers - spending 15 minutes discussing each quest and assigning it an XP value on the assumption that Siegebreaker is perfectly balanced. That's perhaps 16 total workdays (8 days each). Then put it all live, watch for a week, hotfix anything that you got badly wrong (e.g. if you gave Hold for Reinforcements a base XP of 44000 you'd want to patch that down to something more sensible like 18000), then review it again in three months.
    I don't have a zerging problem.

    I'm zerging. That's YOUR problem.

  2. #102
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    Why only 4 quests getting nerf? And out of this 4, only 2 are in reality are run by most people to get quick exp, Vol and Tangleroot run.


    Please look into this quests:

    From lvl 1-20 on heroic:

    Kobold's New Ringleader
    Bloody Crypt
    The Missing party (pt 2 of Delera chain)
    Shadow Crypt
    Jungle of Khyber (VoN 3)
    Maraud the Mines
    Wiz-King (Chamber of Raium)
    Monastery of the Scorpion
    Litany of the Dead (no bosses)

  3. #103
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    To developers: in addition to post above i give you two links where there is list of most efficient exp/min quests (and least efficient).

    list by Carpone

    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...Leveling-Guide


    list by MrCow, this is probably best list you can find on forums with solid data

    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...rnate-(Arcane)

  4. #104
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    I like the proposed changes as they have been described so far. If the changes incentivize me to run quests that I normally wouldn't, it will make the whole leveling process more enjoyable.

    If you are looking for other quests to beef up, xp-wise, browsing Mr. Cow's old diary of a melee TR threads are obviously a nice, fairly accurate way to look up xp/minute in the quests.

    One thing I hope to see, is some of the older f2p stuff getting beefed up as well. It looks like the first round of xp boosts is for quests from packs. I know there isn't as much incentive to boost the xp in f2p stuff, but there are some enjoyable f2p quests that I just don't touch anymore because of how inefficient they are, and I would like an excuse to run them again.

  5. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by sirgog View Post
    Try seeing if there is a correlation between the following:

    1) Quest Favor

    and

    2) (Normal XP - 500) / Quest Level
    Well, if favor and xp are tied together in a formula, it's beyond my ability to figure it out. Consider the F2P level 12s, in order of least xp to most xp (base amount on Normal):

    XP (Favor) Quest
    3669 (6) Diplomatic Impunity
    3879 (5) Framework
    4299 (7) Invaders!
    4636 (6) Eyes of Stone
    5699 (7) A Relic of a Sovereign Past

  6. #106
    Community Member psykopeta's Avatar
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    great! nerf quests that everybody runs(at least once) every life!

    and boost quests that no matter what you do! will keep sucking!! so spread players among a wider variety of quests, cool

    or maybe not, i really don't care, but what i know is: boost means 5% extra, nerf means 50% less, accepting any bets?
    psykopeta - hoarding pl, for the sake of hoarding, the day i become ubercompletionist will be because there isn't anything to delay it more - thelanis, where the gimps claim to be pros and noobs claim to be pros, no newbies allowed(unless they claim to be pros), we have enough drama w/o them. PS i'm not a pro, maybe if i reincarnate in RL...

  7. #107
    The Hatchery MRMechMan's Avatar
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    Cool My feedback on quest XP

    You want my feedback? Here it is, 30-40 lives worth of zerging. I own every pack, mostly from TP that was earned while TRing, and have played nearly every quest in almost every way possible, usually going for max xp/min. Solo elite bravery up to cap, in channel groups, guild group, pugs, with a backpack full of soulstones, as an arcane, divine, melee, you name it.

    It's something that has always bothered me about this game, and it's something I care a lot about as well.

    The main problem is that developers have no idea how long people take to complete different quests. The quests that are bad have ALWAYS been bad. In fact, an XP pass has been needed for YEARS and I think most players have just given up on one. Having some kind of formula to create the base xp of a quest based on length (which is often WAY wrong) and level is just-and I apologize for being blunt-stupid. You made the quest, you can't play through it to decide how much XP it should give? Cmon!

    XP/MIN is the ONLY thing that matters for a sizeable portion of players. Quest decor, loot, flavor, favor and everything else is secondary. When you are grinding out multiple lives, you go where the fast XP is. Smart zergers take EVERYTHING into account when it comes to xp/min-do I have to run to the quest?, can I box it?, is there a fail condition?, is it soloable?, can I pug it without ripping out my hair?, Do I get monster manual XP out of it? Can I shave off a minute here, a few seconds here, etc, etc...

    I find it especially ironic that this new list of quests-to-be-nerfed has a level 14 (meaning TR2s run it at 16 mostly) and 2 level 19 quests. The 16 to 20, and particularly the 18 to 20 grind is pretty awful.

    There is a lot more level 17-20 content, but much of it is very, very low XP per minute due to several things:

    -HP bloat. Level 18-19 quests have hundreds of thousands of hp that you have to chew through, making them slow.
    -Need to pug/inability to solo. Up to level 15-16, this game is very solo friendly on elite. After vale, not so much. This isn't a good or bad thing-pugging should be encouraged, but it does add to the time spent at these levels. Whether soloing and taking longer to kill stuff or waiting for groups to fill-if they do.
    -Low base XP. Some of these quests are not just long, with high hp mobs...in addition, their base XP is just LOW compared to other content
    -Eveningstar. Even with keys, hall of heroes etc, it's tough finding a group for these.

    More content doesn't matter to TRing players if it is terrible xp minute. I think one way the devs justify giving new quests terrible XP is that they are in addition to the old quests, and that it's OK that they just give 500xp/min or something similarly awful. That's not the right logic. If something isn't viable, people won't do it.
    If given a choice, people will go where the xp is: they simply will not run the bad xp content on a regular basis. When you look down at your xp log and you are getting way LESS xp/min at level 18-19 compared to level 3-4 and yet need 10x as MUCH xp, that is when people a) drink an XP pot b) play less c) ignore the packs with bad xp d) quit the game...does more people doing a) really justify the negative effects of b), c) and d)?

    Finally, I know that has a developer, you are innately concerned about the MONEY side of things. I get that. You want people to buy XP pots, XP tomes, slayer boosts and the like. If there was no grind and it was easy to TR, there is less incentive to buy those (basically) store items. This is not the right way to look at it. Hardcore TRs will ALWAYS buy a tome, once you have tasted tome XP there is no going back to before. Similarly, I don't think it would effect XP pot sales that much.
    Certainly having a healthier TR and pug scene is a bigger benefit than less people TRing and pugging but chugging an extra pot or two. Don't be afraid to change the status quo.
    Also, the faster players "run the lap" of the lives, the more they buy hearts of wood-and the more they stay motivated to keep playing. There is the risk of them getting their lives done faster, but there is less burnout...and that is something that should be top priority for turbine. BURNOUT=LOSS OF PROFITS
    Also, there are many people out there that WOULD TR (aka buy hearts of wood and XP pots), but have heard that the grind of levels 17-19 are too much. Keep that it mind.

    Here's a not-so-quick breakdown of all the heroic quests.

    Level1s:
    KORTHOS Overall it's not bad, everything is quick and it is part of the TRing ritual and good favor so I do it.
    Quests skipped?
    Misery's Peak (The run out there, the ton of levers and running around, waiting for dialogues, etc....it's just not worth it. Which is a shame, because it's a very cool quest)
    Suggestions?
    As with almost any timed quest, Cannith Crystal could use a bump. Every other lvl1 quest here is zerged in 1 minute, 2 minutes tops.

    Level2s:
    HARBOR/MARKETPLACE Harbor is fine, just stop moving everything around
    Quests skipped?
    Arachnophobia (173 base xp, NO BRAVERY possible...I end up doing it for favor, maybe)
    Suggestions?
    It's fine, I do every quest at this level.

    Level3s:
    CATACOMBS It's fine, bravery really helped this chain. The last lvl4 one should give more-it's fast, and easy, but 120base on elite is a joke.
    CERULEAN HILLS Both are fine.
    SACRED HELM/REDFANG/SIGNET All are fine.

    Quests skipped?
    Kobold Assault (Takes 5-10x longer than most other quests in the harbor, only 1528 base xp. If the spawns didn't slow down dramatically during the last 30-50 kills this would be a bit better but as of right now, it's terrible.
    Suggestions
    Boost Kobold Assault (double it and/or fix it), make the STK part1 level 4 (or 5), and raise the level of the first 2 parts of tangleroot, as well. Overall, level3s are fine.

    Level4s:
    SHARN Is fine. All are pretty quick. Stand your ground could use a boost (again, timed quest=bad xp/min for competent players)
    DEPTHS CHAIN Also fine, all are 1-2min
    IRESTONE Fine, especially with group.
    FRESHEN THE AIR Fine, and fun, I love this quest.
    WATERWORKS All parts are good.
    PROOF IS IN THE POISON It's OK. Tougher than any quest up to this point but decent XP overall.
    Quests Skipped?
    Occasionally Rest for the Restless, but only due to the lever, not the XP (maybe boost it to encourage pugging)
    Suggestions
    None, xp/min is fine here, no real stinkers.

    Level5s
    3BC I skip all of it almost every life. It's just not good xp, no way around it. BOOST IT. It has a giant and awesome explorer area and I've met many people that don't own this pack...cause it's terribad xp.
    NECRO1 I do all of these, all are good. Burning could use a slight boost...it gives LESS than the other 3 despite it being the one that needs multiple players or hireling/pet positioning...not sure how that happened in the first place (and has been that way for half a decade or so...)
    CARNIVAL All are fine. A bit longer than most quests up to this point but snitch/small prob/partycrashers are all 5-10min quests, tops. Bigtop could use a bit of love.
    STK Make parts 1 and 2 level5 as well, overall the XP is fine, particularly for the 3min part3...which gives more than the 6-8min part1 and 5-6min part2...weird...
    ARCHER PT/CHAMBER/LAIR All fine, all 1-2min quests
    Quests Skipped?
    Like I said, all of 3BC. Not even worth thinking about.
    Suggestions
    Just the 3BC thing...most quests here are fine.

    Level6s
    CAGED TROLLS/HERETICS/FORGOTTENCAVERNS/RUINED HALLS All fine. Particularly ruined halls.
    REDWILLOWS/BOUNTY/DEAD PREDS/MIRRAS Also all fine, all 2-3min
    DEVILS ASSAULT I bet you have the data on how many people run it at level6 heroic normal, right? I bet that amount of data is a very small amount because no one runs it, cause it's terrible xp/min. No bravery, 1900xp base, and it takes a LONG time to run...(hint: we don't needs 3minutes to shrine...)
    SORROWDUSK Again, push up the level of the first few, similar to STK and tangleroot.
    BLOODY CRYPT Fine, really nice xp in good group.
    GLADEWATCH/CHRONO/VALAKS Boost them all. Gladewatch has a fail condition, takes a long time, and only has ~1800 base xp. Meh... Chrono has good base xp, but people don't run it on heroic STILL, because most other quests at this level take under 5minutes to run. Valaks has lots of traps, levers and lots of mobs to kill that you can't zerg past easily. Only 1800 base xp.
    Quests skipped?
    Chrono, Valaks, Gladewatch.
    Suggestions
    At least boost gladewatch.

    Level7s
    TANGLEROOT Make the chain level 5 to 7. Forcing people to go there to run the first 2 at level 5 is silly. Overall, it's fine. Nerfing the run to zulkash? I'm absolutely ok with that, it takes 1 minute or less, and no mobs need to be killed...cut 20-30% of the base xp away and then boost the one with the prisoners by 50%.
    DELERAS The chain is fine. Make part1 level 7 to better match the rest of the chain.
    SENTINALS It's fine. BOB is fine...doesn't really need a boost compared to a lot of other quests...
    THE PIT Great quests. People either love it or hate it, the XP is fine. If people avoid it, it's not because of bad XP.
    TEARS/GWYLANS/GRAVEROBBER All are solid.
    TAMING THE FLAMES Needs a bit of a boost...or at least changing how you need to run across the map 3 times to talk to the npc/kill bosses/get keys, etc. Streamline it, having to talk to an npc in 1 corner of the map to unlock the boss, and after killing the boss having to run BACK to the npc is tedious and unfun.
    Quests Skipped?
    None
    Suggestions
    Just change tangleroot levels and boost taming the flames.

    Level8s
    KORROMAR Not bad. The ops are small but add up, it's worth running once.
    XORIAN Great quest, somewhat tough, and needs group usually, but good xp rewards.
    STORMCLEAVE/STROMVAULDS Both fun and good xp.
    VON1/2 Both are fine. Von1 a bit low-waves spawn slowly-but not terrible
    NECRO2 Ranges from OK to great. Change the flagging so that you don't need to redo all 4 quests every time you do shadow crypt.
    FAITHFUL DEPARTED Longish quest comparatively, fail condition, 2,266 base xp??! So with bravery it's worth like what...4-5 shadow crypt or von3 ops? And you wonder why no one does it?
    THRENAL Some quests are actually pretty decent xp. It's just the 15minute one that gives almost nothing and has a fail condition that makes people avoid it. That one could do with a MASSIVE boost...~5x it's base xp would make it ~1k/min...and thus MEDIOCRE xp. Developers have never understood how quickly the best players mow through content.
    Quests Skipped?
    Threnal, faithful departed.
    Suggestions?
    Boost threnal (parts that need it)

    Level9s
    RED FENS All are fine. Boost the demon op in into the deep...it's genuinely challenging at level, even solo.
    SHADOW CRYPT Nerfing it would just cause anger. Obviously it's very good xp/min, but I think the solution is to buff other quests. Although, a nerf here would cause some TRs to shift their quest lists which wouldn't be a terrible thing.
    VON3/4 Both are fine. Von3 in particular is also very good xp but same thing as SC applies.
    KEEPERS SANCTUARY/CHURCH AND THE CULT Boosting keepers wouldn't be a bad idea but it's not terrible.
    Quests skipped?
    None
    Suggestions?
    It's probably tempting to nerf VON3/shadow crypt. Don't...level 10 quests being terrible makes up for it.

    Level10s
    SORROWDUSK The chain as a whole is fine. But the 6/6/7/7/8/8/9/9/10/10 setup has to go. Also, condense the area a bit, when you spend more time running to the quest (and back) then in the actual quest, something is wrong.
    HiPS Could use a boost, it's kinda tough and has low base xp.
    VON5/6 Part5 is fine. Part6 is...also fine, but I'd think forming a raid group and slaying a red dragon in an extraplanar vault deserves more.
    TEMPESTS SPINE It's fine. Quite solo/duoable and decent xp
    ATRAXIAS Both are OK. Quite quick if you know where to go.
    RESTLESS ISLES They're alright xp/min quests, but you gotta go through the isles to get there....also, the beholder op is bugged last I checked.
    SANDS TOMB UNO It's fine, 1min quest with invis.

    Quests skippped?
    Restless isles, HiPS. Sometimes Sorrowdusk. Level 9 is just better on the whole than level 10 so it's easier to bank xp (as it is from levels 8 to 20 anyway)
    Suggestions?
    Boost restless isles, maybe HiPS. Change sorrowdusk to something more bravery friendly-and change the location of the quest turn-in dudes to save us time and prevent boredom.

    Level11s
    OOB/CARAVAN/MARAUD/SANDS TOMB DOS/PURGE/RAID VULK All fine. Pretty nice xp. Caravan is about the only timed quest that is any good-other timed quests should be reevaluated based on that.
    DEAD SHALL RISE/BEYOND THE GRAVE beyond the grave could use a bit, even with 4 people running to use the pyres it's only OK. Solo, it's pretty awful.
    NECRO3 All are fine.
    WHISPERDOOM/DREAMS/ENEMY WITHIN All 3 are fine.
    MADE TO ORDER Awesome quest, tough traps+enemies, and a base xp of...about 1/2 of other quests around this level. No named loot, the only saving grace is that there are dwarves and those give monster manual xp. Boost it anyway.
    Quests Skipped?
    Made to order if no trapper/not evasionist
    Suggestions?
    Overall, a very nice level for XP quests.

    Level12s
    LORDSMARCH F2P CHAIN No changes needed.
    WIZKING/DQ1/DQ2 Also fine. DQ2 being boosted would be fine...it's very hard to solo at level, and getting a group to do it is difficult as well. The loot is not enough reason for most people TRing to do it...xp is needed, as well.
    CHAINS OF FLAME A 50% boost would convince people to run it more. It's the longest quest at this level and has a 5-6minute run to get there.
    INVADERS/RELIC Both good xp.
    TITAN PRERAID/RAID I must admit I have never done these. That fact alone means it is probably not enough xp to justify running it at level. Actually, I don't think I've seen more than about 5 lfms for this raid, EVER, at any level.
    CURSED CRYPT It's fine.
    Quests skipped
    Titan, sometimes Chains/DQ1/DQ2, sometimes cursed crypt.
    Suggestions?
    Raids should give GREAT xp, not average xp an certainly not mediocre xp.

    Level13s
    GIANTHOLD WALKUPS All are fine, most are in the 3-5 minute range and solid xp
    LORDSMARCH P2P CHAIN All are fine. Undermine is fine as is, but I won't say no to a boost (although others need it far more)
    MIRED IN KOBS It's fine. Can certainly be done in less than 4 minutes solo, on elite. The Mama dragon optional should give far more xp than it does though as it takes a long time.
    Quests skipped
    None.
    Suggestions?
    Just boost the mama dragon op. Other than that, everything is good xp.

    Level14s
    Necro4 All 4 quests are good XP. VOL>GHOSTS>FLESHMAKER>INFERNO, generally. But all 4 are fine. Nerf vol? I understand... Even at -80% perma-ransack it's better XP than most content, which is a sign that the XP is too high. But only nerf it by 10-20% at most. Don't kill it off. People respond to incentives and ~-10-20% would be balancing.
    CABAL/POP/MADSTONE/CRUCIBLE All fine.
    TOR/REAVERS At level duo or trio reavers is good fun. +50% raid xp bonus, cmon!
    Quests skipped
    Often reavers fate, sometimes crucible. Occasionally inferno.
    Suggestions?
    Again, raids should give GREAT xp, not average xp an certainly not mediocre xp.

    Level15s
    ACID WIT/DELIRIUM HP bloat starts to rear its ugly head here...beholder boss with 46k...not fun, just boring...it barely fights back!
    SHAR/ESCAPE PLAN/SHADOW OF A DOUBT All struck me as quite low. Maybe a small boost.
    HARBINGER CHAIN Missing is good, fear factory is OK, sinister storage is mediocre, in the flesh is good (but difficult!)
    Quests skipped
    Probably won't bother with the eveningstar ones, even with a key.
    Suggestions?
    At level in the flesh is awesome, but quite hard...should have awesome xp to match as it's the end of a chain as well.

    Level16s
    VALE All are fine. The base xp of these quests on elite (10,036, 7,659, 8,020, 9,099, 7,299) should be THE golden standard for medium/longish quests at levels 16-19. The fact that far LONGER, HIGHER LEVEL and more DIFFICULT quests are routinely giving ~1/2 the base xp of these quests-or less-is silly.
    EVENINGSTAR FLAGGING Lords of dust, SOTO, spinner and beyond the rift are all fine. SOTO is fine, it's very fast and not too difficult with now nerfed endfight . Elminster talks too much.
    WHELOON Nothing struck me as great xp. Compared to vale it was more difficult as well (but maybe just becuse it was solo elite bravery and my first time ). Don't be afraid to make new content as good xp as old content! I DID like these quests, they just didn't give great xp sadly.
    Quests skipped
    Always will do vale and eveningstar flagging, might skip wheloon.
    Suggestions?
    Boost wheloon!

    Level17s
    RR Monestary and ETK are both great xp and great fun. Prey could use a BIT of a boost and Stealer of Souls could to-cause right now NO ONE runs it and flagging for it is a pain.
    REIGN OF MADNESS Sane Asylum is great, Lord of Stone is OK (but a boost is fine), Acute Delirium is tough and could use a bump, Lord of Eyes as well.
    ABBOT/SHROUD Again, a raid, at level, is really hard to pull off....and you can't really farm it (and if they do, you win turbine, so encourage this!)...so a base like...15k-20k would be reasonable...not 10k for shroud or 7k or whatever the hell abbot gives.
    DRUIDS DEEP CHAIN 3,366, 2,429, 3,086, 5,233 Just mediocre across the board, and HP bloat definitely starting to add to quest completion time. +50% to each would be reasonable considering the amount of XP needed at these levels...
    Quests skipped
    Abbot, probably druids, acute delirium, lord of eyes, stealer of souls, prey.
    Suggestions?
    Both raids need to give massive rewards for being ran at level.

    Level18s
    IQ1 4,102, 4,102, 4,102, 4,450 4,450 Not terrible, but not great. Some are quick but none give repeatable XP. This is basically bottom of the barrel XP for the most part. It's also pretty clear based on those numbers that some kind of forumula is in use-which I find to be laughably facepalmrific.
    HOX/VOD Would it be repetitive if I said that raids need to give better xp at heroic levels? Yes, it would be, but it bears repeating.
    HIGH ROAD 3,483, 5,416, 4,798, 3,193, 6,093 How do those 5 numbers compare to vale? (*cough*, lower) Are these quests more difficult? (yes) Is much more xp needed at level 18 compared to 16? (yes) Do they take as long, or longer? (yes, generally).
    DEMONS DEN This quest is so, so cool on elite. It's awesome. Really tough solo, and in a group of less than 3 people quite tough too...even full pug it's tough. It takes time, it's stressful, and a hell of a lot of fun. Base XP on elite? 4.6k.
    Quests skipped
    Ideally, all of it. Good TRs cap in vale, or at worst, off of monestary/ETK. When the ideal path is avoiding a quest, that quest has something wrong with it.
    Suggestions?
    Both raids need to give massive rewards for being ran at level. Other quests need to move the XP bar more than 1/15th of a rank for doing an elite bravery run. Getting 7-8k for an elite quest when you need 100k+ for a rank...it sucks, no other way to put it. Demons den gets avoided...double it's XP and people might step up to the plate.

    Level19s
    AMRATH Awesome quests, tough enemies, often less than great rewards. Sins is good-can pound out a 5min elite solo if you know your stuff. New invasion and Genesis are OK. Bastion needs a boost. The two side silverflame quests need boosts-happy to see those on the list!
    IQ2 DOES NOT NEED A NERF! Reclaiming memories is AVERAGE XP-less than vale and less than RR. The monkey quest is GOOD xp but nothing amazing. ARE YOU REALLY NERFING LEVEL 19 quest XP???? We need 500k+ at this level, changing the base XP of these quests from 4.5k to 3.5k is quite faceslappy It doesn't matter if you added stormhorns/eveningstar/cannith quests when they are miserable XP, too...
    STORMHORNS Painful hp bloat. Not particularly difficult, just take time. Some of them are in the (sadly familiar) range of ~3.5-4.5k base xp. I'm not sure who decided that was fair, or balanced. The glacier ones are all right.
    THE RIDDLE/MURDER BY NIGHT Both ~4k base XP iirc. HP bloat in full effect here.
    CANNITH Glad to see some of these on the list. Fighting non-neg levelable warforged with several thousand XP takes a long time if solo, and even in a good group these quests are fairly difficult.
    MA and LOB need to give INSANE XP at level for heroic characters. If you organize and complete an elite MA or LOB *AT LEVEL* that is amazing, and probably spent a few hours doing it. A full level 19 rank is hardly too much to ask for IMO. That would be 100k or so xp...so make these each ~20-25k base xp. Hell, make 'em 30k...People might actually run the content you make...gasp!

    That's all...for now.

    Till we meet again, developers.

    -Mech

  8. #108
    Community Member lyrecono's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    We are still planning some changes to the XP Curves, including consideration for 2nd and 3rd lives.

    To clarify, most of these decisions have been based on making focused changes to known trouble areas, such as targeting some particular character levels and content, and are based on actual XP earned by players and quest completion times.
    Dealing with 3rd life exp requirements first would be the most logical, for more responce to your post look at the bottom of my post.

    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    Yeah I agree with everyone else who says the problem isn't with Vol, the problem is with the other 3 Necro IV quests, which are either extremely convoluted, to the point you just run it formulaically rather than actually playing it (Inferno), or contain a near-impossible mechanic to solo (Fleshmaker, at the end), or an inordinately tough boss fight (Ghosts, which is the least offensive of the three).

    If your data is showing Vol is getting run way more than the other three, that's why. People like to grind through Heroic mostly solo.

    Overall its a net positive, I think. Just be careful when you're interpreting your "real player" data - correlation is not causation, don't just assume that because a quest stands out as giving lots of XP to lots of players, that its because its XP is not properly proportional.
    It's easy to see why people ransack Temple of Vol first, it's doable by everyone, after this the newer peeps/first life new check out, seeing less runs of the other 3?
    from newbie friends that have left the game: GoP endfight too hard, Fleshmakers Air ellies too hard.
    I personaly like them(more then necro 3's rats quest) but there is so little exp at high level for a 3+tr, i have no other choice but to step into necro 4.

    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    Personal experience: Except by inferno, I take 3 or 4 times longer to complete the other quests at level on elite. There is also the factor that I hate Necro 4 quests and only run them once for favor.

    I can see how Ghost may be easily zerged with the right party, but that final fight is brutal if you have a bit of bad luck (one or two disintegrates failed and the fight drops into chaos quickly). Vol is quick if you split up, but I never saw an elite completion at the six minute mark.

    And I am really surprised to not see Hold for Reinforcements or Keeper's Sanctuary on that first pass.
    Agreed, i like keepers sanctuary but the exp is stupid, far too low

    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    /signed. Get more people raiding earlier. Make Chronoscope THE killer XP for level 8 characters. VoN5 is good, but VoN6 needs love. Tempest Spine could use a boost. Twilight Forge is good XP, but Titan needs a huge boost (and maybe some gear rework, but that's a separate topic).

    Nice idea, too.

    Heh...how much Coyle hate would we see if Hold For Reinforcements had XP/minute equal to a good VoN3 zerg?
    Still very little runs, threnal chain 3 has little exp. this week i had to restart coyle twice because a polar ray weilding ice render one shotted him by spawning right on top of him

    On the topic of titan i can be very clear: clean up the map/wildernes area, yes some of the vets know it by hart but getting a group toghether for it is a pain

    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Regarding nerfing vol

    We should never have asked the dev's to adjust things, we all know it will be nerfed to the ground and it won't be the only one. I started taking at the very least a break from the game today, because of frustration from the lack of endgame and the added annoyance features that you can pay to get around with xp pots etc they've been adding in. Seeing what they think needs to be adjusted makes me sick. Yes some of the things that they buffed needed it but the ones they're nerfing. Well I can't say what I really think of Turbine on this forum with that.
    Don't wory, many have taken a break over the years, few come back though
    He is right turbine, more bufs, less nerfs, also: see bottom of post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan_Milic View Post
    I always do dreams e/h/n, but at that lvl there are a lot of quests and tr people can also farm elite von3 or crpyt with this new xp ransack.

    In snitch for rusty optional you get 600-700 xp, you get 800 for iron fire bomber in blown to bits which is very hard one optional(both on elite), this just shows turbines way of understanding the game.
    The bomber is a fun optional, but the reward is pathetic, the set item is soon outdated and the exp is garbage, the exp on rusty is far too low too

    Quote Originally Posted by sirgog View Post
    Twilight Forge and VON5 aren't actually overly good XP, they are close to the median XP/minute for the level range.

    VON5 takes significant time due to all the running around. There is so much ground to cover - it's similar to Gianthold Tor plus dragons in that regard. All that for a base XP of 12500 (not much more than VON3) with minor optionals and only Onslaught (1875 XP), Vandal (1250), Persistence (1250) and Ingenious Debilitation (1875) bonuses likely. Additional OOB farming is better XP/minute; VON5 is done because people like to see big numbers.

    The time VON5 is extraordinarily good on a TR is when you join a red carpet group that's been in 35 minutes already, spend 6 minutes inside VON5, and get all the XP except for a trivial 10000 XP penalty for late entry.

    Here's the sorts of figures I'd be thinking. Remember you usually get 300-360% of base XP for a first run Elite with a maximum streak (typical PUG bonuses are 100% base, 10% persistance, 15% onslaught, 10% vandal, 80% elite, 20% bravery, 50% bravery streak, 50% XP tome = 335%; all of which is then multiplied by 1.05 for Voice, or 1.09 for Voice and 4% shrine, or 1.39 for Voice, shrine and 30% pot):


    Chronoscope: Base XP 12000 (elite), optionals totalling 150% of base
    Tempest's Spine: Base XP 10000 (elite), 'clear mountaintop' optional 100% of base.
    VON5: Base XP 16000 (elite), optionals boosted
    VON6: Base XP 10000 (elite). Yes that's exceptional XP/min, but some of this is to make up for VON5 being poor beyond a first bravery run.
    Twilight Forge: Base XP 20000 (elite).
    Titan Awakes: Base 10000
    DQ2: This is fine as-is; it's ADQ1 that is mediocre.
    Reaver's Fate: Base 15000 (this is a 15-17 minute run after all)
    Abbot: Base 12000/18000/30000 (n/h/e). Reflects that heroic elite with sub-20s is fiendishly difficult.
    Shroud: As Abbot. Takes longer but is much easier.
    VOD: As Abbot and Shroud. Shorter but takes a while to get to.
    HOX: Same as VOD, same reasons.
    TOD: 15k/25k/40k (50% base XP for Suulomades)
    LOB: 20k/30k/45k (higher than TOD to reflect increased time wasted getting there). 150% base XP for 'Mark 3 times' optional to reflect that since bugfixes a while back, this optional is legitimately difficult.
    MA: Same as TOD. Easier than TOD and shorter, but takes longer to get to.



    It's particularly grating that EN LOB gives more XP than HN LOB, despite HN being considerably more difficult. LOB hits harder on heroic normal, has more HP, and the trash are considerably more dangerous, and the Quori cast spells with higher DCs on heroic normal.
    Raids need a boost, tough running it at level is usualy not worth the exp, you need to find 11 other people at the same level willing and capable to run it, remember that the increased the difficulty of many of these raids about 2 years ago?
    They claimed it was done for the complaining people, to stop their whining that the game was to easy, i still hold the oppinion that it was done to boost the sales of the(by then) upcomming U14 expansion and it's ED system.
    The incentive used to be the gear, that boat has left around U14 too
    Just upping the Exp of those raids might not do it, increasing the drop rate of named items and ingredients might just be the incentive.
    No newbie is going to farm one of these old raids, by the time he gets it he might have out leveled it.

    Quote Originally Posted by oradafu View Post
    Come on. People can't be falling for this line about XP being tied to Favor so it cannot be adjusted.

    Church of the Fury is 12 Favir and has heroic base XP of 1161/2038/2140/2242
    Desert Caravan is 15 Favor and has heroic base XP of 1615/2980/3123/3268
    Reclamation is 15 Favor and has heroic base XP of 1788/3140/3300/3459
    Wrath of Flame is 18 Favor and has heroic base XP of 1345/2321/2401/2480
    Shadow Crypt is 21 Favor and has heroic base XP of 5568/9820/10360/10900
    Lord of Dust is 21 Favor and has heroic base XP of 2940/5100/5300/5500
    Detour is 24 Favor and has a heroic base XP of 2920/5050/5233/5416
    Let Sleeping Dust Lies is 24 Favor and has heroic base XP of 3900/6766/7033/7299
    VOD is 27 Favor and has heroic base XP of 8200/8500/8800

    The numbers are all over the place. I just randomly picked some quests. I invite others to just randomly pick some quests for yourselves to see if I'm not making things up. This whole XP is linked to Favor looks like hogwash to me.
    I personaly think this forula is a sham. I have two theories:

    1, They made it look like they picked these quest after doing a simple query:
    What quest are most often repeated?
    Instead of looking why we do those instead of the other might result in a healthier sollution.

    2, just like the ghostbane/random loot roll debacle of U19, some people that left the game still bothered to fill in a questionnaire, one of their reasons might have been, I can't find groups for quests other then XYZ.


    Possible causes and sollutions:
    There is too little exp at lv 19-20 and the exp requirement of those levels is insanely high (in comparison: getting from 20 to 21 on kings forrest/ underdark/drow city S/E/R alone is very easy)
    Solution, lower the exp requirements for those levels. raise the exp of some of these quests. Don't nerf! you can't affort more angry/leaving players. P.S. the heroic evening star quest are a joke exp wise and even those with keys prefer not to run them, FIX THOSE!

    Puging at those levels becomes harder, most TR's at that level party with guild and Channel members, many exlude newer toons/players to avoid drama/10& exp loss. They lack game exp/build/consumebles etc. (atleast on my server), i try to pug as much as i can but little vets have the patience anymore.
    Many newer players need! vets to learn from.
    Add 10% exp to all quests and removing the no death bonus would look like a nice option, though many would mis the incentive of the achievement, including me.

    Lack of people to play with.
    Sollution: work on the quality of life of the game, work on the in game GM traing (i have met many good ones and a few bad apples), having GM's do community work like event's and such might help repair the bond/trust between turbine and it's player base. Work out the game bugs or atleast acknowledge them, repair the ingame bug report.
    Communicate with your community, yes it has trolls, every community has those, listen to your playerbase: we have complained about the loot, the exp and much more, work with us. Please, the game is becomming a ghost town.
    Last edited by lyrecono; 10-09-2013 at 05:21 AM. Reason: typo's

  9. #109
    The Hatchery sirgog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRMechMan View Post
    You want my feedback? Here it is, 30-40 lives worth of zerging. I own every pack, mostly from TP that was earned while TRing, and have played nearly every quest in almost every way possible, usually going for max xp/min. Solo elite bravery up to cap, in channel groups, guild group, pugs, with a backpack full of soulstones, as an arcane, divine, melee, you name it.

    It's something that has always bothered me about this game, and it's something I care a lot about as well.

    The main problem is that developers have no idea how long people take to complete different quests. The quests that are bad have ALWAYS been bad. In fact, an XP pass has been needed for YEARS and I think most players have just given up on one. Having some kind of formula to create the base xp of a quest based on length (which is often WAY wrong) and level is just-and I apologize for being blunt-stupid. You made the quest, you can't play through it to decide how much XP it should give? Cmon!

    XP/MIN is the ONLY thing that matters for a sizeable portion of players. Quest decor, loot, flavor, favor and everything else is secondary. When you are grinding out multiple lives, you go where the fast XP is. Smart zergers take EVERYTHING into account when it comes to xp/min-do I have to run to the quest?, can I box it?, is there a fail condition?, is it soloable?, can I pug it without ripping out my hair?, Do I get monster manual XP out of it? Can I shave off a minute here, a few seconds here, etc, etc...

    I find it especially ironic that this new list of quests-to-be-nerfed has a level 14 (meaning TR2s run it at 16 mostly) and 2 level 19 quests. The 16 to 20, and particularly the 18 to 20 grind is pretty awful.

    There is a lot more level 17-20 content, but much of it is very, very low XP per minute due to several things:

    -HP bloat. Level 18-19 quests have hundreds of thousands of hp that you have to chew through, making them slow.
    -Need to pug/inability to solo. Up to level 15-16, this game is very solo friendly on elite. After vale, not so much. This isn't a good or bad thing-pugging should be encouraged, but it does add to the time spent at these levels. Whether soloing and taking longer to kill stuff or waiting for groups to fill-if they do.
    -Low base XP. Some of these quests are not just long, with high hp mobs...in addition, their base XP is just LOW compared to other content
    -Eveningstar. Even with keys, hall of heroes etc, it's tough finding a group for these.

    More content doesn't matter to TRing players if it is terrible xp minute. I think one way the devs justify giving new quests terrible XP is that they are in addition to the old quests, and that it's OK that they just give 500xp/min or something similarly awful. That's not the right logic. If something isn't viable, people won't do it.
    If given a choice, people will go where the xp is: they simply will not run the bad xp content on a regular basis. When you look down at your xp log and you are getting way LESS xp/min at level 18-19 compared to level 3-4 and yet need 10x as MUCH xp, that is when people a) drink an XP pot b) play less c) ignore the packs with bad xp d) quit the game...does more people doing a) really justify the negative effects of b), c) and d)?

    Finally, I know that has a developer, you are innately concerned about the MONEY side of things. I get that. You want people to buy XP pots, XP tomes, slayer boosts and the like. If there was no grind and it was easy to TR, there is less incentive to buy those (basically) store items. This is not the right way to look at it. Hardcore TRs will ALWAYS buy a tome, once you have tasted tome XP there is no going back to before. Similarly, I don't think it would effect XP pot sales that much.
    Certainly having a healthier TR and pug scene is a bigger benefit than less people TRing and pugging but chugging an extra pot or two. Don't be afraid to change the status quo.
    Also, the faster players "run the lap" of the lives, the more they buy hearts of wood-and the more they stay motivated to keep playing. There is the risk of them getting their lives done faster, but there is less burnout...and that is something that should be top priority for turbine. BURNOUT=LOSS OF PROFITS
    Also, there are many people out there that WOULD TR (aka buy hearts of wood and XP pots), but have heard that the grind of levels 17-19 are too much. Keep that it mind.

    Here's a not-so-quick breakdown of all the heroic quests.

    Level1s:
    KORTHOS Overall it's not bad, everything is quick and it is part of the TRing ritual and good favor so I do it.
    Quests skipped?
    Misery's Peak (The run out there, the ton of levers and running around, waiting for dialogues, etc....it's just not worth it. Which is a shame, because it's a very cool quest)
    Suggestions?
    As with almost any timed quest, Cannith Crystal could use a bump. Every other lvl1 quest here is zerged in 1 minute, 2 minutes tops.

    Level2s:
    HARBOR/MARKETPLACE Harbor is fine, just stop moving everything around
    Quests skipped?
    Arachnophobia (173 base xp, NO BRAVERY possible...I end up doing it for favor, maybe)
    Suggestions?
    It's fine, I do every quest at this level.

    Level3s:
    CATACOMBS It's fine, bravery really helped this chain. The last lvl4 one should give more-it's fast, and easy, but 120base on elite is a joke.
    CERULEAN HILLS Both are fine.
    SACRED HELM/REDFANG/SIGNET All are fine.

    Quests skipped?
    Kobold Assault (Takes 5-10x longer than most other quests in the harbor, only 1528 base xp. If the spawns didn't slow down dramatically during the last 30-50 kills this would be a bit better but as of right now, it's terrible.
    Suggestions
    Boost Kobold Assault (double it and/or fix it), make the STK part1 level 4 (or 5), and raise the level of the first 2 parts of tangleroot, as well. Overall, level3s are fine.

    Level4s:
    SHARN Is fine. All are pretty quick. Stand your ground could use a boost (again, timed quest=bad xp/min for competent players)
    DEPTHS CHAIN Also fine, all are 1-2min
    IRESTONE Fine, especially with group.
    FRESHEN THE AIR Fine, and fun, I love this quest.
    WATERWORKS All parts are good.
    PROOF IS IN THE POISON It's OK. Tougher than any quest up to this point but decent XP overall.
    Quests Skipped?
    Occasionally Rest for the Restless, but only due to the lever, not the XP (maybe boost it to encourage pugging)
    Suggestions
    None, xp/min is fine here, no real stinkers.

    Level5s
    3BC I skip all of it almost every life. It's just not good xp, no way around it. BOOST IT. It has a giant and awesome explorer area and I've met many people that don't own this pack...cause it's terribad xp.
    NECRO1 I do all of these, all are good. Burning could use a slight boost...it gives LESS than the other 3 despite it being the one that needs multiple players or hireling/pet positioning...not sure how that happened in the first place (and has been that way for half a decade or so...)
    CARNIVAL All are fine. A bit longer than most quests up to this point but snitch/small prob/partycrashers are all 5-10min quests, tops. Bigtop could use a bit of love.
    STK Make parts 1 and 2 level5 as well, overall the XP is fine, particularly for the 3min part3...which gives more than the 6-8min part1 and 5-6min part2...weird...
    ARCHER PT/CHAMBER/LAIR All fine, all 1-2min quests
    Quests Skipped?
    Like I said, all of 3BC. Not even worth thinking about.
    Suggestions
    Just the 3BC thing...most quests here are fine.

    Level6s
    CAGED TROLLS/HERETICS/FORGOTTENCAVERNS/RUINED HALLS All fine. Particularly ruined halls.
    REDWILLOWS/BOUNTY/DEAD PREDS/MIRRAS Also all fine, all 2-3min
    DEVILS ASSAULT I bet you have the data on how many people run it at level6 heroic normal, right? I bet that amount of data is a very small amount because no one runs it, cause it's terrible xp/min. No bravery, 1900xp base, and it takes a LONG time to run...(hint: we don't needs 3minutes to shrine...)
    SORROWDUSK Again, push up the level of the first few, similar to STK and tangleroot.
    BLOODY CRYPT Fine, really nice xp in good group.
    GLADEWATCH/CHRONO/VALAKS Boost them all. Gladewatch has a fail condition, takes a long time, and only has ~1800 base xp. Meh... Chrono has good base xp, but people don't run it on heroic STILL, because most other quests at this level take under 5minutes to run. Valaks has lots of traps, levers and lots of mobs to kill that you can't zerg past easily. Only 1800 base xp.
    Quests skipped?
    Chrono, Valaks, Gladewatch.
    Suggestions
    At least boost gladewatch.

    Level7s
    TANGLEROOT Make the chain level 5 to 7. Forcing people to go there to run the first 2 at level 5 is silly. Overall, it's fine. Nerfing the run to zulkash? I'm absolutely ok with that, it takes 1 minute or less, and no mobs need to be killed...cut 20-30% of the base xp away and then boost the one with the prisoners by 50%.
    DELERAS The chain is fine. Make part1 level 7 to better match the rest of the chain.
    SENTINALS It's fine. BOB is fine...doesn't really need a boost compared to a lot of other quests...
    THE PIT Great quests. People either love it or hate it, the XP is fine. If people avoid it, it's not because of bad XP.
    TEARS/GWYLANS/GRAVEROBBER All are solid.
    TAMING THE FLAMES Needs a bit of a boost...or at least changing how you need to run across the map 3 times to talk to the npc/kill bosses/get keys, etc. Streamline it, having to talk to an npc in 1 corner of the map to unlock the boss, and after killing the boss having to run BACK to the npc is tedious and unfun.
    Quests Skipped?
    None
    Suggestions
    Just change tangleroot levels and boost taming the flames.

    Level8s
    KORROMAR Not bad. The ops are small but add up, it's worth running once.
    XORIAN Great quest, somewhat tough, and needs group usually, but good xp rewards.
    STORMCLEAVE/STROMVAULDS Both fun and good xp.
    VON1/2 Both are fine. Von1 a bit low-waves spawn slowly-but not terrible
    NECRO2 Ranges from OK to great. Change the flagging so that you don't need to redo all 4 quests every time you do shadow crypt.
    FAITHFUL DEPARTED Longish quest comparatively, fail condition, 2,266 base xp??! So with bravery it's worth like what...4-5 shadow crypt or von3 ops? And you wonder why no one does it?
    THRENAL Some quests are actually pretty decent xp. It's just the 15minute one that gives almost nothing and has a fail condition that makes people avoid it. That one could do with a MASSIVE boost...~5x it's base xp would make it ~1k/min...and thus MEDIOCRE xp. Developers have never understood how quickly the best players mow through content.
    Quests Skipped?
    Threnal, faithful departed.
    Suggestions?
    Boost threnal (parts that need it)

    Level9s
    RED FENS All are fine. Boost the demon op in into the deep...it's genuinely challenging at level, even solo.
    SHADOW CRYPT Nerfing it would just cause anger. Obviously it's very good xp/min, but I think the solution is to buff other quests. Although, a nerf here would cause some TRs to shift their quest lists which wouldn't be a terrible thing.
    VON3/4 Both are fine. Von3 in particular is also very good xp but same thing as SC applies.
    KEEPERS SANCTUARY/CHURCH AND THE CULT Boosting keepers wouldn't be a bad idea but it's not terrible.
    Quests skipped?
    None
    Suggestions?
    It's probably tempting to nerf VON3/shadow crypt. Don't...level 10 quests being terrible makes up for it.

    Level10s
    SORROWDUSK The chain as a whole is fine. But the 6/6/7/7/8/8/9/9/10/10 setup has to go. Also, condense the area a bit, when you spend more time running to the quest (and back) then in the actual quest, something is wrong.
    HiPS Could use a boost, it's kinda tough and has low base xp.
    VON5/6 Part5 is fine. Part6 is...also fine, but I'd think forming a raid group and slaying a red dragon in an extraplanar vault deserves more.
    TEMPESTS SPINE It's fine. Quite solo/duoable and decent xp
    ATRAXIAS Both are OK. Quite quick if you know where to go.
    RESTLESS ISLES They're alright xp/min quests, but you gotta go through the isles to get there....also, the beholder op is bugged last I checked.
    SANDS TOMB UNO It's fine, 1min quest with invis.

    Quests skippped?
    Restless isles, HiPS. Sometimes Sorrowdusk. Level 9 is just better on the whole than level 10 so it's easier to bank xp (as it is from levels 8 to 20 anyway)
    Suggestions?
    Boost restless isles, maybe HiPS. Change sorrowdusk to something more bravery friendly-and change the location of the quest turn-in dudes to save us time and prevent boredom.

    Level11s
    OOB/CARAVAN/MARAUD/SANDS TOMB DOS/PURGE/RAID VULK All fine. Pretty nice xp. Caravan is about the only timed quest that is any good-other timed quests should be reevaluated based on that.
    DEAD SHALL RISE/BEYOND THE GRAVE beyond the grave could use a bit, even with 4 people running to use the pyres it's only OK. Solo, it's pretty awful.
    NECRO3 All are fine.
    WHISPERDOOM/DREAMS/ENEMY WITHIN All 3 are fine.
    MADE TO ORDER Awesome quest, tough traps+enemies, and a base xp of...about 1/2 of other quests around this level. No named loot, the only saving grace is that there are dwarves and those give monster manual xp. Boost it anyway.
    Quests Skipped?
    Made to order if no trapper/not evasionist
    Suggestions?
    Overall, a very nice level for XP quests.

    Level12s
    LORDSMARCH F2P CHAIN No changes needed.
    WIZKING/DQ1/DQ2 Also fine. DQ2 being boosted would be fine...it's very hard to solo at level, and getting a group to do it is difficult as well. The loot is not enough reason for most people TRing to do it...xp is needed, as well.
    CHAINS OF FLAME A 50% boost would convince people to run it more. It's the longest quest at this level and has a 5-6minute run to get there.
    INVADERS/RELIC Both good xp.
    TITAN PRERAID/RAID I must admit I have never done these. That fact alone means it is probably not enough xp to justify running it at level. Actually, I don't think I've seen more than about 5 lfms for this raid, EVER, at any level.
    CURSED CRYPT It's fine.
    Quests skipped
    Titan, sometimes Chains/DQ1/DQ2, sometimes cursed crypt.
    Suggestions?
    Raids should give GREAT xp, not average xp an certainly not mediocre xp.

    Level13s
    GIANTHOLD WALKUPS All are fine, most are in the 3-5 minute range and solid xp
    LORDSMARCH P2P CHAIN All are fine. Undermine is fine as is, but I won't say no to a boost (although others need it far more)
    MIRED IN KOBS It's fine. Can certainly be done in less than 4 minutes solo, on elite. The Mama dragon optional should give far more xp than it does though as it takes a long time.
    Quests skipped
    None.
    Suggestions?
    Just boost the mama dragon op. Other than that, everything is good xp.

    Level14s
    Necro4 All 4 quests are good XP. VOL>GHOSTS>FLESHMAKER>INFERNO, generally. But all 4 are fine. Nerf vol? I understand... Even at -80% perma-ransack it's better XP than most content, which is a sign that the XP is too high. But only nerf it by 10-20% at most. Don't kill it off. People respond to incentives and ~-10-20% would be balancing.
    CABAL/POP/MADSTONE/CRUCIBLE All fine.
    TOR/REAVERS At level duo or trio reavers is good fun. +50% raid xp bonus, cmon!
    Quests skipped
    Often reavers fate, sometimes crucible. Occasionally inferno.
    Suggestions?
    Again, raids should give GREAT xp, not average xp an certainly not mediocre xp.

    Level15s
    ACID WIT/DELIRIUM HP bloat starts to rear its ugly head here...beholder boss with 46k...not fun, just boring...it barely fights back!
    SHAR/ESCAPE PLAN/SHADOW OF A DOUBT All struck me as quite low. Maybe a small boost.
    HARBINGER CHAIN Missing is good, fear factory is OK, sinister storage is mediocre, in the flesh is good (but difficult!)
    Quests skipped
    Probably won't bother with the eveningstar ones, even with a key.
    Suggestions?
    At level in the flesh is awesome, but quite hard...should have awesome xp to match as it's the end of a chain as well.

    Level16s
    VALE All are fine. The base xp of these quests on elite (10,036, 7,659, 8,020, 9,099, 7,299) should be THE golden standard for medium/longish quests at levels 16-19. The fact that far LONGER, HIGHER LEVEL and more DIFFICULT quests are routinely giving ~1/2 the base xp of these quests-or less-is silly.
    EVENINGSTAR FLAGGING Lords of dust, SOTO, spinner and beyond the rift are all fine. SOTO is fine, it's very fast and not too difficult with now nerfed endfight . Elminster talks too much.
    WHELOON Nothing struck me as great xp. Compared to vale it was more difficult as well (but maybe just becuse it was solo elite bravery and my first time ). Don't be afraid to make new content as good xp as old content! I DID like these quests, they just didn't give great xp sadly.
    Quests skipped
    Always will do vale and eveningstar flagging, might skip wheloon.
    Suggestions?
    Boost wheloon!

    Level17s
    RR Monestary and ETK are both great xp and great fun. Prey could use a BIT of a boost and Stealer of Souls could to-cause right now NO ONE runs it and flagging for it is a pain.
    REIGN OF MADNESS Sane Asylum is great, Lord of Stone is OK (but a boost is fine), Acute Delirium is tough and could use a bump, Lord of Eyes as well.
    ABBOT/SHROUD Again, a raid, at level, is really hard to pull off....and you can't really farm it (and if they do, you win turbine, so encourage this!)...so a base like...15k-20k would be reasonable...not 10k for shroud or 7k or whatever the hell abbot gives.
    DRUIDS DEEP CHAIN 3,366, 2,429, 3,086, 5,233 Just mediocre across the board, and HP bloat definitely starting to add to quest completion time. +50% to each would be reasonable considering the amount of XP needed at these levels...
    Quests skipped
    Abbot, probably druids, acute delirium, lord of eyes, stealer of souls, prey.
    Suggestions?
    Both raids need to give massive rewards for being ran at level.

    Level18s
    IQ1 4,102, 4,102, 4,102, 4,450 4,450 Not terrible, but not great. Some are quick but none give repeatable XP. This is basically bottom of the barrel XP for the most part. It's also pretty clear based on those numbers that some kind of forumula is in use-which I find to be laughably facepalmrific.
    HOX/VOD Would it be repetitive if I said that raids need to give better xp at heroic levels? Yes, it would be, but it bears repeating.
    HIGH ROAD 3,483, 5,416, 4,798, 3,193, 6,093 How do those 5 numbers compare to vale? (*cough*, lower) Are these quests more difficult? (yes) Is much more xp needed at level 18 compared to 16? (yes) Do they take as long, or longer? (yes, generally).
    DEMONS DEN This quest is so, so cool on elite. It's awesome. Really tough solo, and in a group of less than 3 people quite tough too...even full pug it's tough. It takes time, it's stressful, and a hell of a lot of fun. Base XP on elite? 4.6k.
    Quests skipped
    Ideally, all of it. Good TRs cap in vale, or at worst, off of monestary/ETK. When the ideal path is avoiding a quest, that quest has something wrong with it.
    Suggestions?
    Both raids need to give massive rewards for being ran at level. Other quests need to move the XP bar more than 1/15th of a rank for doing an elite bravery run. Getting 7-8k for an elite quest when you need 100k+ for a rank...it sucks, no other way to put it. Demons den gets avoided...double it's XP and people might step up to the plate.

    Level19s
    AMRATH Awesome quests, tough enemies, often less than great rewards. Sins is good-can pound out a 5min elite solo if you know your stuff. New invasion and Genesis are OK. Bastion needs a boost. The two side silverflame quests need boosts-happy to see those on the list!
    IQ2 DOES NOT NEED A NERF! Reclaiming memories is AVERAGE XP-less than vale and less than RR. The monkey quest is GOOD xp but nothing amazing. ARE YOU REALLY NERFING LEVEL 19 quest XP???? We need 500k+ at this level, changing the base XP of these quests from 4.5k to 3.5k is quite faceslappy It doesn't matter if you added stormhorns/eveningstar/cannith quests when they are miserable XP, too...
    STORMHORNS Painful hp bloat. Not particularly difficult, just take time. Some of them are in the (sadly familiar) range of ~3.5-4.5k base xp. I'm not sure who decided that was fair, or balanced. The glacier ones are all right.
    THE RIDDLE/MURDER BY NIGHT Both ~4k base XP iirc. HP bloat in full effect here.
    CANNITH Glad to see some of these on the list. Fighting non-neg levelable warforged with several thousand XP takes a long time if solo, and even in a good group these quests are fairly difficult.
    MA and LOB need to give INSANE XP at level for heroic characters. If you organize and complete an elite MA or LOB *AT LEVEL* that is amazing, and probably spent a few hours doing it. A full level 19 rank is hardly too much to ask for IMO. That would be 100k or so xp...so make these each ~20-25k base xp. Hell, make 'em 30k...People might actually run the content you make...gasp!

    That's all...for now.

    Till we meet again, developers.

    -Mech

    Agree with almost all of this.

    However, Proof is in the Poison definitely needs a boost. It is legitimately hard at level, long, tricky to navigate and involves a lot of covering ground. I have never got 500/min from a run of it (only ever PUGged it, but tend to do it a bit for something different).

    HP bloat is a significant issue and once it kicks in (base level 17 and higher quests mainly but also some more recently made level 13-16 ones) elite needs more XP to even consider running it twice.
    I don't have a zerging problem.

    I'm zerging. That's YOUR problem.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRMechMan View Post
    <awesome stuff>

    -Mech
    Very well write up of the xp issues.
    It's definitely an N-word.

  11. #111
    Community Member ThreeEyedBob's Avatar
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    Devs, please pay attention to SirGog's and MRMechMan's posts! They hit they nail solidly with their posts!

    Please please please buff the xp on the low-xp packs. You will have increased sales and less burnout this way.

    There is a lot of psychology involved in people spending money on this game. People feeling the burnout or jaded about the slow levels will tighten their spending. Happy players will not :-)

    I am very happy that you are finaly looking at the xp curves and xp rewards for quests. I just hope that you will not stealth nerf and destroy the xp on some of the popular quests and in general lower the overall xp income. That is my great fear about this and will be a certain killer for my joy of DDO.
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  12. #112
    Community Member Deathdefy's Avatar
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    MrMechman -

    1) great write-up.

    2) I can teach you a thing!

    You don't need to redo the shadow tombs every time to reflag for Shadow Crypt.

    1) Finish Shadow Crypt, hand in the quest.

    2) Abandon one of the (Completed) Shadow Tombs.

    3) Re-take the quest you just abandoned.

    4) Complete and hand in the flagging quest you abandoned. (I choose Knight on Elite for casters and Norm for non-casters.)

    5) Talk to 'The Herald'. Say 'Repeat the Shadow Crypt'. In brackets it even says: 'This will only reset the quest 'The Shadow Crypt' and not the rest of the series'.

    It's WAI to not have to re-do them; just no one knows about it!
    Khyber: Aggrim (Completionist!)
    All of my builds are grossly out of date. Just roll a human or drow mechanic / assassin rogue thing.
    Blind insta-kills floating eye balls.

  13. #113
    Community Member lyrecono's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirgog View Post
    Agree with almost all of this.

    However, Proof is in the Poison definitely needs a boost. It is legitimately hard at level, long, tricky to navigate and involves a lot of covering ground. I have never got 500/min from a run of it (only ever PUGged it, but tend to do it a bit for something different).

    HP bloat is a significant issue and once it kicks in (base level 17 and higher quests mainly but also some more recently made level 13-16 ones) elite needs more XP to even consider running it twice.

    Many of my tr buddies refuse to pug proof is in the poison, it's simply easier to solo it.
    I still pug it, always bring exta consumebles for them, i might have goten soft over the years...

    The HP bloat is very anoying in that lv range, no wonder people switched to DC casting years ago, and left the game at U14 when drow CR was too much of them. For a caster it's usualy mana conserving to insta kill the mob then to heal the melee's. EGiant hold saves were high but with propper gear and team work (a small group) people at least got the job done.
    It is just very anoying as a vet to hack away all those hp, even with sos/greensteel etc, when Terror was there atleast the melee's could have some fun, after the nerf this weapon became trash.

    This was btw a perfect example of turbine mettling and screwing it up, adding nightmare to the loot tables without considering the impact was an epic dissaster in its own right but the way turbine responded to this should be a lesson to all turbine dev's and their producer:

    You do not implement something without double checking the impact on the game and it's community, you do not repair it by a blanket nerf
    and make sure you don't hurt your own sales by invalidating adventure packs, E.G; nerfing gear and inflating hp drives newer people toward packs with better rewards for their money, whether they be exp/loot/story fun.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRMechMan View Post
    You want my feedback? Here it is
    ....
    Till we meet again, developers.

    -Mech
    Definitely read what MRMechMan has posted and act accordingly if you want this to work out well.

    Infact, just ask MRMechMan, Sirgog and maybe a few more players to jointly write you a complete draft of exact xp values for all heroic quests on all difficulties and implement that. Its likely to be many times more reasonable than anything you come up with on your own

    Oh, and dont ask me, I dont have that kind of knowledge.
    Last edited by mikarddo; 10-09-2013 at 06:20 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathdefy View Post
    MrMechman -

    1) great write-up.

    2) I can teach you a thing!

    You don't need to redo the shadow tombs every time to reflag for Shadow Crypt.

    1) Finish Shadow Crypt, hand in the quest.

    2) Abandon one of the (Completed) Shadow Tombs.

    3) Re-take the quest you just abandoned.

    4) Complete and hand in the flagging quest you abandoned. (I choose Knight on Elite for casters and Norm for non-casters.)

    5) Talk to 'The Herald'. Say 'Repeat the Shadow Crypt'. In brackets it even says: 'This will only reset the quest 'The Shadow Crypt' and not the rest of the series'.

    It's WAI to not have to re-do them; just no one knows about it!
    I thought I added that to the wiki page last year but looks like I only added it for necro1. Which is weird, because I clearly remember adding it to both, but the page history shows that memory to be false.

  16. #116
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyr View Post
    Optional XP should not have ANY TIE to base xp of a quest. Optionals can be either long or short regardless of the quest length itself. For example, Von3 has some very 'short' optionals which are on the path. They are worth a decent amount (unlike say half the optionals in tangleroot) entirely due to the base xp of the quest which really should be irrelevant when considering optional value.

    You hit on the basic right idea in post (long optionals off the beaten path worth more and tough optionals worth more while short easy on the main path optionals worth less), but then mucked the whole thing up by tying it to base xp which would then muck those values up based upon the quests length/difficulty.
    I agree... each dungeon and optional is very unique. They should be stored in a database as a static value and adjusted as needed. I can't imagine ANY formula that would work well with the mass variety of quests we have in this game.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  17. #117
    Community Member Ivan_Milic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathdefy View Post
    MrMechman -

    1) great write-up.

    2) I can teach you a thing!

    You don't need to redo the shadow tombs every time to reflag for Shadow Crypt.

    1) Finish Shadow Crypt, hand in the quest.

    2) Abandon one of the (Completed) Shadow Tombs.

    3) Re-take the quest you just abandoned.

    4) Complete and hand in the flagging quest you abandoned. (I choose Knight on Elite for casters and Norm for non-casters.)

    5) Talk to 'The Herald'. Say 'Repeat the Shadow Crypt'. In brackets it even says: 'This will only reset the quest 'The Shadow Crypt' and not the rest of the series'.

    It's WAI to not have to re-do them; just no one knows about it!
    So you just redo one quest and you are flagged again?

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    We are still planning some changes to the XP Curves, including consideration for 2nd and 3rd lives.

    To clarify, most of these decisions have been based on making focused changes to known trouble areas, such as targeting some particular character levels and content, and are based on actual XP earned by players and quest completion times.
    Tomb of the Tormented is there?

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    /signed. Get more people raiding earlier. Make Chronoscope THE killer XP for level 8 characters. VoN5 is good, but VoN6 needs love. Tempest Spine could use a boost. Twilight Forge is good XP, but Titan needs a huge boost (and maybe some gear rework, but that's a separate topic).
    Would love this.

    Heh...how much Coyle hate would we see if Hold For Reinforcements had XP/minute equal to a good VoN3 zerg?
    Well, Coyle is somewhat fixed now. He's easier to manage. That said, the issue I still have with most of Threnal is like my problem w/ Catacombs ... too much running, etc. Even if you could do the quest fast, even if it is only a few fights ... it is still a bunch of moving from A to B and back and forth.

    The suck thing about Coyle is that you're time-bound regardless. You can't finish that one faster.
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathdefy View Post
    Firstly, I appreciate we really need to see the specific xp value changed to before our comments can be taken with much weight.

    That will not stop me.


    Vol - I'm in the group that hate it. I run it multiples times only if there are 2 competent casters (self included) in a group. I hate soloing it due to the end fight, and with the new ransack xp mechanic and faster drops for repetitions on the same day, it's less group farmable anyway. I'd leave it, but if it's apparently a big problem, then go for it I suppose.

    Mining - Fair enough I suppose. Even on elite things are usually fine and it's quite fast. Should anything at 18-20 really be nerfed though?

    Reclaiming Memories - Fair enough too I suppose from a quest v other quests of level perspective. It's not the easiest quest in the world though. Again, it's 18-20; if you universally added 3k to every base quest in that range's xp I'd think it was a better decision.

    The Deadly Package - Why?! It's like what... 3k once off? Unless you have accidentally mistyped 'The Stronghold Key' or 'The Way to Zulkash'. In those cases, I'd say my posession of an invis clickie earned me that free xp for a minute of running.



    Yes. Hooray these all could certainly use the boost. I have some issues with:

    -Lord of Stone
    -Partycrashers
    -Bargain of Blood
    -The Tide Turns
    -Storm the Beaches

    But, on reflection, for first time players these do need a big increase as they present a decent challenge or are very long. And frankly, that's who I think xp should revolve around.

    I was going to explain how these quests could be done very quickly, but balancing xp against experienced players instead of new players (or even taking experienced players into consideration at all) sounds like a poor and disappointing model for customer retention.

    So what if experienced players get back to cap faster? That makes us happier, and new players will be happier not actively frustrated if given a just reward for their efforts.

    To my mind, desperately calling for a buff are at least:

    -Hold for Reinforcements
    -Gladewatch Outpost Defence


    I think most people don't realize that all the quests targeted for "nerf" are exceptionally easy even if you aren't experienced. Wraps of light solo'd Vol on hard for me, having never run it, nor looked it up, in under 10 minutes. And i'm definitely a "casual" player (no raids, almost exclusively solo, rarely bother with elite after lvl 10).

    As for the quests being buffed, I definitely agree with a lot of those. They are pitiful xp if you don't know what your doing. Also, as much as I love that Deneith chain, I never run it because I can rerun the entire delera's chain in the same amount of time, with less hassle and more xp.

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