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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulfurnace View Post
    1) More accurately, it's from level 10-14. Anything below that will die from two cleaves. (3-4 if it has red named.)
    Cleave/Great cleave/Supreme Cleave has nowhere near the AoE range of Primal Scream. When ANY build regardless of Str (think caster classes, archers, xbow arties etc) can cleave for 30d20 dmg over an area roughly the same size as a fireball blast radius, then that's a valid comparison.
    Quote Originally Posted by Soulfurnace View Post
    2) That's a caster. They do that from 1-18, then use FoD/Wail for 19-20.
    That's some casters. I prefer to play mine as CC with dots and a splash of buffstick, and fod/wail only works on limited numbers of trash within an AoE, not rednames, anything that uses deathward, anything that makes the save, etc.

    So tell me, if you think DDO's unbalanced, why should any class/build whatsoever legitimately be able to do BOTH the things in your points without taking any penalty. I'd love to see some examples of builds that can either do this as a class feature on a first life, or that don't involve the player trying to work their way round the ED system that's designed to kick in at 20.

  2. #102
    Founder & Hero Uska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stretchicus View Post
    Also, given equal skill someone who runs clusters of mobs from shrine to shrine and spams primal scream in heroic content renders at least everything >14 pretty much moot.

    "Well done" whoever figured out the exploit/trick/whatever you want to call it, but I'm not fond of putting time into thinking about a levellable character build for my TRs when I'll just end up pugging with people who run like this. Usually I run heroic content with a full party, because soloing is for offline gaming.

    Regardless, it's all a moot point until we get a definite statement from a dev/GM one way or another, but given how things are playing out with the current 'sploit, I'd rather err on the side of caution.

    Its not like anyone should need primal spam to have fun/complete quests anyway
    They have flat out stated that its NOT WAI and it will be fixed sadly they dont go further and stronger with that.

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  3. #103
    Founder & Hero Uska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoasterHops View Post
    Do you plan on typing anything before you drop group? So the people know why you dropped group, or so they might know why you dropped.
    I am going to say before we start not to do it and if they do then its off I go

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  4. #104
    Community Member TheLegendOfAra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stretchicus View Post
    Cleave/Great cleave/Supreme Cleave has nowhere near the AoE range of Primal Scream. When ANY build regardless of Str (think caster classes, archers, xbow arties etc) can cleave for 30d20 dmg over an area roughly the same size as a fireball blast radius, then that's a valid comparison.

    That's some casters. I prefer to play mine as CC with dots and a splash of buffstick, and fod/wail only works on limited numbers of trash within an AoE, not rednames, anything that uses deathward, anything that makes the save, etc.

    So tell me, if you think DDO's unbalanced, why should any class/build whatsoever legitimately be able to do BOTH the things in your points without taking any penalty. I'd love to see some examples of builds that can either do this as a class feature on a first life, or that don't involve the player trying to work their way round the ED system that's designed to kick in at 20.
    You're missing the entire point here.

    Cleave, Great Cleave, Supreme Cleave may not do 30d20 damage of a large area, this is very true. They are nowhere near as strong as primal scream.

    However, they're still OP compared to the low level content that Primal Scream would be considered "OP" in.

    In other words, I can run any quest at level on elite up to level 7-8 ish and gather mobs till red alert and Primal Scream and kill everything at once, or I can do the same thing and use Cleave, Great cleave and it will take me 3 seconds longer to kill all the mobs, and move on.

    That's what you, and everyone else is *****ing about in these threads. 3-5 seconds per encounter.

    Yes, clearly those of us using the bug are horrible people and are all going to rot in Khyber for our sins.
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  5. #105
    Community Member Soulfurnace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stretchicus View Post
    Cleave/Great cleave/Supreme Cleave has nowhere near the AoE range of Primal Scream. When ANY build regardless of Str (think caster classes, archers, xbow arties etc) can cleave for 30d20 dmg over an area roughly the same size as a fireball blast radius, then that's a valid comparison.
    Casters have no need, they're much more powerful.
    Regardless, primal scream is overkill. I'm doing just as I said - cleaving*2 and moving onto the next mob because everything is dead.
    That's some casters. I prefer to play mine as CC with dots and a splash of buffstick, and fod/wail only works on limited numbers of trash within an AoE, not rednames, anything that uses deathward, anything that makes the save, etc.
    So.. Your caster requires a group. Bah, no fun in that.

    Rule 1) If it saves, you're doing it wrong. Get more int/cha.
    Rule 2) If it doesn't work due to deathward, resort to direct damage - that thing that lets you zerg from 1-18 faster than a twister.
    Rule 3) Have DoT's for red named - though direct damage will kill faster below epics. (Dreaming Dark on elite is an exception.)
    Rule 4) If anything makes the save, you're doing it wrong.
    So tell me, if you think DDO's unbalanced, why should any class/build whatsoever legitimately be able to do BOTH the things in your points without taking any penalty. I'd love to see some examples of builds that can either do this as a class feature on a first life, or that don't involve the player trying to work their way round the ED system that's designed to kick in at 20.
    I do think DDO is unbalanced. The solution is nerfing casters and keeping destinies.

    Wanna solo 1-20 as a first life and be completely OP? Go a human cleric. BB spam, instakills on IQ. (Or BB if sp is an issue.)
    Wanna solo 1-20 as a first life melee? Hah, have fun. Have fun in IQ you will.
    Wanna solo 1-20 as a first life palemaster? Sure, direct damage until finger, then just finger. Simplicity.

    All twists do is allow a melee to close the gap between casters. Casters are much, much, MUCH more powerful - without twists.
    Casters with twists versus melee with twists? Melee can do some stuff.
    Caster without twists versus melee without twists? Melee can go pike, or step in just before completion. It doesn't really have a use.

  6. #106

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulfurnace View Post
    Caster without twists versus melee without twists? Melee can go pike, or step in just before completion. It doesn't really have a use.
    This is absolutely true. With arcane, you just run through heroic content and you dont need any twists. From lvl 5 (wizzard) or lvl 6 (sorcerer) no melee is able to compare with your maximized fireball. And later is the gap just bigger.

  7. #107
    Community Member Chaoscheerio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulfurnace View Post
    All twists do is allow a melee to close the gap between casters. Casters are much, much, MUCH more powerful - without twists.
    Casters with twists versus melee with twists? Melee can do some stuff.
    Caster without twists versus melee without twists? Melee can go pike, or step in just before completion. It doesn't really have a use.
    I kind of disagree here... I run melee toons mostly and I can't count the amount of times I've saved casters with a well timed stun or trip. Plenty of casters seem to run into trouble when they realize their insane damage actually gets aggro. A well built melee works just fine when it comes to DPS. Heck I used to 3 man EEs with a pure barb and a pure monk on my clonk life. That barb saved my butt many times.

    It boils down to player skill plain and simple. I largely don't have an issue with twists because using them requires you to actually have spent some time learning the game. I more have an issue with shiradi sorcs being the easy button for DPS.

    I also think Uska has the wrong attitude but right solution. He doesn't like it and is entitled to his feelings about it so refuses to run with people who use the twists. That's how I respond to people doing things I don't like ingame and I think it's totally the right way to go about it. Play how you want to.
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  8. #108
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaoscheerio View Post
    I kind of disagree here... I run melee toons mostly and I can't count the amount of times I've saved casters with a well timed stun or trip. Plenty of casters seem to run into trouble when they realize their insane damage actually gets aggro. A well built melee works just fine when it comes to DPS. Heck I used to 3 man EEs with a pure barb and a pure monk on my clonk life. That barb saved my butt many times.

    It boils down to player skill plain and simple. I largely don't have an issue with twists because using them requires you to actually have spent some time learning the game. I more have an issue with shiradi sorcs being the easy button for DPS.

    I also think Uska has the wrong attitude but right solution. He doesn't like it and is entitled to his feelings about it so refuses to run with people who use the twists. That's how I respond to people doing things I don't like ingame and I think it's totally the right way to go about it. Play how you want to.
    Sorry No I will still got to the forums to cry about it thank you very much!!!! STOP TELLING ME WHAT TO DO!!!!!

  9. #109
    Community Member Grynberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uska View Post
    Cheating is cheating and twisters should banned right along side the dupers.
    I think you should realize by now where Turbine draws the line between cheating and being clever and it has nothing to do with what is OP - if it hits their wallet, it's going to get fixed.

    For example monk instant recall has been here since the beginning of the game and pretty much everyone's using that. Same goes for twists, druids breaking down every boss-fight (well that did get fixed eventually) and some other things best left alone for now.

    So until Turbine actually acknowledges that this is a bug and bans will be enforced, people will not care of you venting here. We all know that Turbine will not do that.

    Just remember that we're all humans and whenever there is even a mild competition going on, you can expect people to find shortcuts, ways to beat the system, be clever etc.

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  10. #110
    Community Member Grynberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stretchicus View Post
    Cleave/Great cleave/Supreme Cleave has nowhere near the AoE range of Primal Scream. When ANY build regardless of Str (think caster classes, archers, xbow arties etc) can cleave for 30d20 dmg over an area roughly the same size as a fireball blast radius, then that's a valid comparison..
    Well. I have a level 8 toon at the moment and I'm using Maelstrom. My average damage per hit is roughly 60 plus some elementals 1d6+2d6+1d4+1d4+1 = 16,5 avg

    Cleave deals ~67+16 and Great cleave deals ~75+16. Total of 174 AOE damage under a second (not counting criticals). In case of a barb splash I'd deal another 75+16 damage to a total of 265 (primal is 320 average). You can use primal scream only 5x/rest and cleaves are a MUCH more consistent source of dps.

    You can trust me when I say that from level 7+, primal scream is only a minor buff that gives you an extra 3 strength (doesnt stack with rage pots and they already provide 2).

    Btw. We are talking about TR-s using twists here which is my main point. TR-s do not gain _that_ much from epic destinies. They are a nice addition but you already kick butt in every possible angle anyway.
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  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLegendOfAra View Post
    You're missing the entire point here.
    In other words, I can run any quest at level on elite up to level 7-8 ish and gather mobs till red alert and Primal Scream and kill everything at once, or I can do the same thing and use Cleave, Great cleave and it will take me 3 seconds longer to kill all the mobs, and move on.
    You can't do that in level 8-14 quests? Does your cleave chain do up to 600 points of damage in one tick AND buff your str/con by 5?
    Using an EPIC DESTINY before you get to EPIC levels is not WAI by definition, no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Soulfurnace
    So.. Your caster requires a group. Bah, no fun in that.
    What's wrong with grouping in an MMO?

    Quote Originally Posted by Soulfurnace
    Rule 1) If it saves, you're doing it wrong. Get more int/cha.
    Rule 2) If it doesn't work due to deathward, resort to direct damage - that thing that lets you zerg from 1-18 faster than a twister.
    Rule 3) Have DoT's for red named - though direct damage will kill faster below epics. (Dreaming Dark on elite is an exception.)
    Rule 4) If anything makes the save, you're doing it wrong.
    Oh, my bad, I forgot after playing since 2009 I should be so jaded that exploits are the only way I can have fun any more. I don't need and didn't ask for char building tips, I prefer to be sat at the back CC'ing mobs, making life easier for the rest of the party, knocking locked stuff before the 2 rogue splash melees can pick it, that sort of thing.

    Sue me, I'm lazy, you can have your fun counting numbers on the quest sheet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soulfurnace
    Casters have no need, they're much more powerful.
    Regardless, primal scream is overkill. I'm doing just as I said - cleaving*2 and moving onto the next mob because everything is dead.
    So you argue that casters are too powerful, but you still kill everything in two hits?

    I'm done here, thanks for the reminder about why I cba with forums though

  12. #112
    Founder & Hero Uska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grynberg View Post
    I think you should realize by now where Turbine draws the line between cheating and being clever and it has nothing to do with what is OP - if it hits their wallet, it's going to get fixed.

    For example monk instant recall has been here since the beginning of the game and pretty much everyone's using that. Same goes for twists, druids breaking down every boss-fight (well that did get fixed eventually) and some other things best left alone for now.

    So until Turbine actually acknowledges that this is a bug and bans will be enforced, people will not care of you venting here. We all know that Turbine will not do that.

    Just remember that we're all humans and whenever there is even a mild competition going on, you can expect people to find shortcuts, ways to beat the system, be clever etc.

    Think D&D and Pun-Pun.

    I almost excusively play monks and I never instant recall wrong is wrong period. and they have said its a bug.

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  13. #113
    Community Member Soulfurnace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaoscheerio View Post
    I kind of disagree here... I run melee toons mostly and I can't count the amount of times I've saved casters with a well timed stun or trip. Plenty of casters seem to run into trouble when they realize their insane damage actually gets aggro. A well built melee works just fine when it comes to DPS. Heck I used to 3 man EEs with a pure barb and a pure monk on my clonk life. That barb saved my butt many times.

    It boils down to player skill plain and simple. I largely don't have an issue with twists because using them requires you to actually have spent some time learning the game. I more have an issue with shiradi sorcs being the easy button for DPS.

    I also think Uska has the wrong attitude but right solution. He doesn't like it and is entitled to his feelings about it so refuses to run with people who use the twists. That's how I respond to people doing things I don't like ingame and I think it's totally the right way to go about it. Play how you want to.
    ...If a caster has agro, I demand it do more dps.

    From what I've seen, most pug casters aren't that good. Some are. The ones that are won't need my help, unless they roll a 1... maybe two 1's in a row.

    The bad ones.. who cares? I'll have more dps done and more kills by the end of the quest than them anyway, making twists redundant. (In short, good casters - melees need twists to be not-so-far-behind. Bad casters - need a backpack space.)

  14. #114
    Founder & Hero Uska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stretchicus View Post
    You can't do that in level 8-14 quests? Does your cleave chain do up to 600 points of damage in one tick AND buff your str/con by 5?


    What's wrong with grouping in an MMO?



    Oh, my bad, I forgot after playing since 2009 I should be so jaded that exploits are the only way I can have fun any more. I don't need and didn't ask for char building tips, I prefer to be sat at the back CC'ing mobs, making life easier for the rest of the party, knocking locked stuff before the 2 rogue splash melees can pick it, that sort of thing.

    Sue me, I'm lazy, you can have your fun counting numbers on the quest sheet.


    So you argue that casters are too powerful, but you still kill everything in two hits?

    I'm done here, thanks for the reminder about why I cba with forums though


    exactly why play a mmo if you dont want to group sadly for me to many groups have one or more cheaters now.

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  15. #115
    Community Member Soulfurnace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stretchicus View Post
    What's wrong with grouping in an MMO?
    Note the word "requires". I almost always pug. I just don't want to rely on that group.


    Oh, my bad, I forgot after playing since 2009 I should be so jaded that exploits are the only way I can have fun any more. I don't need and didn't ask for char building tips, I prefer to be sat at the back CC'ing mobs, making life easier for the rest of the party, knocking locked stuff before the 2 rogue splash melees can pick it, that sort of thing.

    Sue me, I'm lazy, you can have your fun counting numbers on the quest sheet.
    Don't need exploits for DC, nor do I use them. For the nth+2 time, I don't use them - though I support them.
    Don't mention spells failing if you don't want tips. Heroics are meh, nothing should be failing on a legend life.

    CCing is great and all, but being reliant upon the party to mop up.. not for me, thanks. (Dead mobs are also easy! :P)

    So you argue that casters are too powerful, but you still kill everything in two hits?
    Yes. I can two hit everything until level 11-12 (depending on content). After that, it takes more and more hits. By IQ, I'm looking at 30 if it's stunned. (Doing ~100 per hit.) [sarcasm] Casters.. One second. 40 sp. Nerf the meleeeeesss!!!! [/sarcasm]

  16. #116
    Community Member Grynberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uska View Post
    I almost excusively play monks and I never instant recall wrong is wrong period. and they have said its a bug.
    Monks were introduced to the game on June 3, 2008. It's been 5 years.

    EDIT: As you can see Turbine has no intention of fixing these bugs. Especially since they are not gamebreaking but just a mild convenience.
    Last edited by Grynberg; 10-10-2013 at 05:00 AM.
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  17. #117
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uska View Post
    I almost excusively play monks and I never instant recall wrong is wrong period. and they have said its a bug.
    Congrats you're a paladin, you will be disappointed by people your entire life and almost universally despised by others. Your dedication to the rules at all costs will leave you friendless and alone in your old age and ranting on internet forums about people breaking the rules. Get off your lawn.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uska View Post
    I would rather get a 99% penalty then to have the cheating scum bag not die.
    You are the minority.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uska View Post
    No if it was WAI I would quit then to the only people defending this are the ones who want to use it and its not a positive effect its cheaiting and irrates the hell out of me I would some compairisons to other things but I dont want to be banned yet. This is as bad as the duping
    I never used it, and I am defending it.

    Would you still think it was cheating if Turbine decides it is ok and WAI afterall?

    You would really quit over it? After years of play?

    Overreact much?

  20. #120
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    While I am not a fan of cheating, but this is rubbish.

    Do you want to cast the first stone and say that you have never told a little white lie, never cheated on a homework assignment, cheated on a diet, or done anything wrong in your life?

    I’ll come back tomorrow and you can lecture me about how I “cheated” on my diet and how I have no morals because of it.

    P.S. If Turbine wants to permaban all the sploiters, by all means do. I am not condoning it at all, but I am sick of seeing all the sin less people posting how people are immoral when they should look in the mirror themselves.
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