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  1. #1
    Community Member burningwind's Avatar
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    Default double strike vs crticial multiplier

    so.. 10% doublestrike vs +1 critical multiplier.. which one would benefit more to a twf build?

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    Community Member Barhai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by burningwind View Post
    so.. 10% doublestrike vs +1 critical multiplier.. which one would benefit more to a twf build?
    Damage per round = average weapon damage x attack multiplier x critical multiplier + weapon procs x attack multiplier
    (simplified)
    attack multiplier is 1.8 with gtwf, double strike adds to it directly (since it doesn't procs on offhand).
    Critical multiplier is 1.1 (unarmed, not in earth stance) to 2.0 (drow kopesh, kensei, overwhelming crit, LD destiny)

    So if you use rapier/scimitar and are kensei then it's (without overwhelm...)
    av x 1.9x1.4+procs x1.9 vs av x 1.8 x 1.8 +procs x1.8
    or 0.1 x procs vs 0.58 x av --> +1 crit wins all the time

    other extreme case: unarmed not kensei
    av x 1.9x1.1+procs x1.9 vs av x 1.8 x 1.2 +procs x1.8
    0.1 prcs vs 0.07 av -->unless your base damage is huge then 10% double strike wins.

    So if you are in neither case we would need to know exact weapon used and other crit modifiers...
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by burningwind View Post
    so.. 10% doublestrike vs +1 critical multiplier.. which one would benefit more to a twf build?
    Every +1 to crit mult adds a (crit rate)% chance to do 100% extra base damage, or in other words, adds (crit rate)% to your base DPS. Assuming you have the appropriate IC feat, if you use a base 20/X weapon, then its 10% vs 10%, though Crit also affects offhand attacks and Doublestrike does not, so Crit still wins.

    If you use a 19-20/X or more, then crit mult wins by a lot, especially as base damage >> affix effects.

    This assumes, of course, you actually care about weapon damage and not purely affix effects (ie, you have dual Life Stealing and you care more about neg level procs than base damage)
    Last edited by droid327; 10-08-2013 at 12:37 PM.

  4. #4
    Community Member burningwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barhai View Post
    Damage per round = average weapon damage x attack multiplier x critical multiplier + weapon procs x attack multiplier
    (simplified)
    attack multiplier is 1.8 with gtwf, double strike adds to it directly (since it doesn't procs on offhand).
    Critical multiplier is 1.1 (unarmed, not in earth stance) to 2.0 (drow kopesh, kensei, overwhelming crit, LD destiny)

    So if you use rapier/scimitar and are kensei then it's (without overwhelm...)
    av x 1.9x1.4+procs x1.9 vs av x 1.8 x 1.8 +procs x1.8
    or 0.1 x procs vs 0.58 x av --> +1 crit wins all the time

    other extreme case: unarmed not kensei
    av x 1.9x1.1+procs x1.9 vs av x 1.8 x 1.2 +procs x1.8
    0.1 prcs vs 0.07 av -->unless your base damage is huge then 10% double strike wins.

    So if you are in neither case we would need to know exact weapon used and other crit modifiers...
    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    Every +1 to crit mult adds a (crit rate)% chance to do 100% extra base damage, or in other words, adds (crit rate)% to your base DPS. Assuming you have the appropriate IC feat, if you use a base 20/X weapon, then its 10% vs 10%, though Crit also affects offhand attacks and Doublestrike does not, so Crit still wins.

    If you use a 19-20/X or more, then crit mult wins by a lot, especially as base damage >> affix effects.

    This assumes, of course, you actually care about weapon damage and not purely affix effects (ie, you have dual Life Stealing and you care more about neg level procs than base damage)
    cool, thx the build is twf monk soul, which will be using dual oathblade. which is 2[1d10] + 6 15-20 X2

  5. #5
    Community Member Cetus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by burningwind View Post
    so.. 10% doublestrike vs +1 critical multiplier.. which one would benefit more to a twf build?
    You mean +1 crit multiplier on 19/20 - I'm assuming you're comparing master wind vs master earth.

    Depends on the fortification of your target for the most part, higher fort favors doublestrike - but generally I think they're more or less balanced - its the other stuff like prr, con, etc. that influences my decision to go with one or the other.
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  6. #6
    Community Member burningwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cetus View Post
    You mean +1 crit multiplier on 19/20 - I'm assuming you're comparing master wind vs master earth.

    Depends on the fortification of your target for the most part, higher fort favors doublestrike - but generally I think they're more or less balanced - its the other stuff like prr, con, etc. that influences my decision to go with one or the other.
    cool many thx =)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cetus View Post
    You mean +1 crit multiplier on 19/20 - I'm assuming you're comparing master wind vs master earth.

    Depends on the fortification of your target for the most part, higher fort favors doublestrike - but generally I think they're more or less balanced - its the other stuff like prr, con, etc. that influences my decision to go with one or the other.


    DPS wise, 10% doublestrike > +1 crit multiplier (19,20) every time (except maybe in FotW)

    10% doublestrike gives you a 10% chance of doubling your damage, while +1 crit multiplier on 19/20 gives you a 10% chance of doing at most 50% more damage.

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    Default AA is correct

    Quote Originally Posted by ArcaneArcher52689 View Post
    DPS wise, 10% doublestrike > +1 crit multiplier (19,20) every time (except maybe in FotW)

    10% doublestrike gives you a 10% chance of doubling your damage, while +1 crit multiplier on 19/20 gives you a 10% chance of doing at most 50% more damage.
    This is correct.

    Ill break it down further. Lets say its a monk splash build already getting x4 crit multiplier, making it x5 multiplier is not a huge increase, in the best case scenario of x2 becoming x3 it still isn't even close to an extra attacks dps increase, heres why.

    An extra attack can do the following:

    1. It can crit.
    2. It can proc extra damage or cc effects based on weapon special abilities.
    3. It can proc extra chances with many special moves like stunning blow/fistat the very least 5% greater chance of success, but often far better).
    4. It can proc offhand attacks with twf.

    There are some special moves that cant doublestrike, but most can. There are a few individual builds id go with crit multiplier, but very few.

  9. #9
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    double strike procs with off hand now? I thought it only works with mainhand, so it's effectively ~5% damage increase for every 10% on twf build.

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    Default well

    AFAIK offhand doublestrike is still bugged(given by rare enhancements and wind stance 4 i think), but havent tested it recently.

    However on a twf build the increase is not 5% from 10% doublestrike, its 10%, brcause the offhand attacks can proc on it. for certain build the increase is greater than 10% dpswise, but not gonna go into all that.

    4 attacks with one strike is not an unusual occurrence on a twf doublestrike build.

  11. #11
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    It's been quite a while since I've tested it, but from what I recall doublestrike only procs from the mainhand weapon and doesn't trigger an offhand proc, so 10% doublestrike on a TWF amounts to closer to a 5% DPS gain.

    I guess what I really need to do is go test it now, since different people are reporting different things.

  12. #12
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01000010 View Post
    However on a twf build the increase is not 5% from 10% doublestrike, its 10%, brcause the offhand attacks can proc on it..
    OK. Did some testing.

    Out of 200 well spaced out single click attacks on the training dummy, 23 were triple hits (in greater wind stance, 7.5% chance doublestrike, full twf line, 10% more offhand procs from shintao). The rest were mostly double hits with a few single hits sprinkled in. None were quadruple hits.

    The fact that there were no quadruple hits means that extra strike from doublestrike doesn't proc an offhand attack, since everytime there was a doublestrike, there would have been around an 80% chance that it would have proc'd a 4th attack.

    I was interested to see that, at least in this relatively small sample size, a monk in wind stance got close to a 7.5% increase in total attacks. 0100, you had mentioned that monks might be getting doubstrike procs from offhand attacks in grandmaster wind stance. It is possible that monks are getting doublstrike procs from offhand attacks in greater wind stance too, but it would require more testing to really know.
    Last edited by FlaviusMaximus; 10-09-2013 at 01:56 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    OK. Did some testing.

    Out of 200 well spaced out single click attacks on the training dummy, 23 were triple hits (in greater wind stance, 7.5% chance doublestrike, full twf line, 10% more offhand procs from shintao). The rest were mostly double hits with a few single hits sprinkled in. None were quadruple hits.

    The fact that there were no quadruple hits means that extra strike from doublestrike doesn't proc an offhand attack, since everytime there was a doublestrike, there would have been around an 80% chance that it would have proc'd a 4th attack.

    I was interested to see that, at least in this relatively small sample size, a monk in wind stance got close to a 7.5% increase in total attacks. 0100, you had mentioned that monks might be getting doubstrike procs from offhand attacks in grandmaster wind stance. It is possible that monks are getting doublstrike procs from offhand attacks in greater wind stance too, but it would require more testing to really know.
    Question: we're you using wraps or other weapons?

    because off-hand doublestrike definitely USED to work. I remember seeing the 4x hit touch of death's on my monk.

    EDIT:

    Actually, crunching the numbers, you're stats are actually in favor of offhand doublestrike.

    With no offhand double strike, you'd expect
    ~15 triple hits
    ~185 normal hits

    with off hand double strike, it's 2*(.075)*(.925)*200= 27.75 - 10%(off hand doesn't hit, so it appears as a double hit)=25 triple strikes

    and realistically, you'd only have a .5% chance of seeing quadruple strike to begin with, so you'd only expect 1 quadruple strike in 200 hits.
    Last edited by ArcaneArcher52689; 10-09-2013 at 09:18 AM.

  14. #14
    Community Member Cetus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArcaneArcher52689 View Post
    DPS wise, 10% doublestrike > +1 crit multiplier (19,20) every time (except maybe in FotW)

    10% doublestrike gives you a 10% chance of doubling your damage, while +1 crit multiplier on 19/20 gives you a 10% chance of doing at most 50% more damage.
    It probably is, but not by much - in fact I think they're pretty close to each other - you can doublestrike an extra 10% of the time, and 5% of those times is a miss. Furthermore, doublestrike would proc on your main hand weapon, versus the multiplier which applies to both if you are a twf. Additionally still, people who switch to bows interchangeably will obviously favor the earth stance mid combat - instead of hopping in and out of stance each time. Its just an overall better stance as far as dps is concerned imo.

    To say it differently, Its an extra 2 hits every 20 swings, which may or may not be a crit, and may or may not be a miss; whereas the extra multiplier is also landing on 2 hits every 20 swings, but cannot miss and always adds a few hundred points of damage (depending on your weapon, adrenaline, etc) to both melee and ranged attacks.
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  15. #15
    Founder Dorian's Avatar
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    Does doublestrike work on cleaves and special attacks? (my guess is no... but not sure)

    I'm spamming cleave/great-cleave/momentum-swing/lay-waste and other special attacks constantly. My gut feeling is that a higher critical multiplier is better for this type of play style.
    Dorian

  16. #16
    Community Member cdr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorian View Post
    Does doublestrike work on cleaves and special attacks? (my guess is no... but not sure)

    I'm spamming cleave/great-cleave/momentum-swing/lay-waste and other special attacks constantly. My gut feeling is that a higher critical multiplier is better for this type of play style.
    Doublestrike absolutely does not work on cleave/great cleave/supreme cleave - I tested it thoroughly around u17. I'm pretty sure not on momentum swing/lay waste either, but never rigorously tested those.

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    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArcaneArcher52689 View Post
    Question: we're you using wraps or other weapons?

    because off-hand doublestrike definitely USED to work. I remember seeing the 4x hit touch of death's on my monk.

    EDIT:

    Actually, crunching the numbers, you're stats are actually in favor of offhand doublestrike.

    With no offhand double strike, you'd expect
    ~15 triple hits
    ~185 normal hits

    with off hand double strike, it's 2*(.075)*(.925)*200= 27.75 - 10%(off hand doesn't hit, so it appears as a double hit)=25 triple strikes

    and realistically, you'd only have a .5% chance of seeing quadruple strike to begin with, so you'd only expect 1 quadruple strike in 200 hits.
    Used handwraps.

    Yes, the numbers slightly favor that offhand attacks are proc'ing doublestrike, but the sample size is low. Doublestrike cannot produce an offhand attack, however, because if it did there would be plenty of quad strikes. I hope those two statements aren't confusing. I think I said before that doublestrike cannot proc an offhand attack, and it would be easy to read that as doublestrike cannot proc off of an offhand attack, which is a different thing.

    A larger sample size plus testing more to see if a quadruple strike ever occurred would help steer this toward a more definite conclusion. I would encourage anyone who is curious to do more testing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    Used handwraps.

    Yes, the numbers slightly favor that offhand attacks are proc'ing doublestrike, but the sample size is low. Doublestrike cannot produce an offhand attack, however, because if it did there would be plenty of quad strikes. I hope those two statements aren't confusing. I think I said before that doublestrike cannot proc an offhand attack, and it would be easy to read that as doublestrike cannot proc off of an offhand attack, which is a different thing.

    A larger sample size plus testing more to see if a quadruple strike ever occurred would help steer this toward a more definite conclusion. I would encourage anyone who is curious to do more testing.
    Whoops, did read that wrong, sorry.

  19. #19
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    there was another thread on double strikes around a few weeks ago

    said something to the effect that on TWF offhand double strike can only trigger on the same swing as a main hand double strike


    in my experience using TWF deathnips on a 2 rogue 10 monk 8 fighter build

    force damage ritual on main hand deathnip none on offhand deathnip

    never observed a pair of hits consecutively without the force damage indicating to me that offhand double strike either does not work or does not work right

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