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Thread: Sex

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    Default Sex

    I just wanted to request, in the reincarnation thread, that we be able to change the sex of a character at the character creation screen during a TR or IR. Then, as a 'might as well', I asked that the devs also amend the label for the male/female option from Gender to Sex.

    This generated a branching topic, so I am creating a new thread to continue the discussion without further derailing the original.

    Sex
    • Physical
    • Biological
    • Male/Female


    Gender
    • Roles/attitudes
    • Psychological
    • Masculine/Feminine
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    I just wanted to request, in the reincarnation thread, that we be able to change the sex of a character at the character creation screen during a TR or IR. Then, as a 'might as well', I asked that the devs also amend the label for the male/female option from Gender to Sex.

    This generated a branching topic, so I am creating a new thread to continue the discussion without further derailing the original.

    Sex
    • Physical
    • Biological
    • Male/Female


    Gender
    • Roles/attitudes
    • Psychological
    • Masculine/Feminine
    this should be good. get ready for the wave of middle aged 50 something white conservative men who spent the the decades after the civil rights movement in a basement playing war games that make up a good portion of ddos player base to chime in a chastise u for being a "feminazi" and trying to explain the concept of gender roles. i learned a long time ago that ddo is not a place for PC discussions.. its best to just play the game,lol

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    As I pointed out in the other thread, Ceci n'est pas une pipe. Discussing the biology and psychology of digital 3D models is as meaningless as trying to argue a certain phallicly shaped rock is somehow inherently male...

    The only correct way to phrase it would be "representation of secondary sex characteristics".

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    Quote Originally Posted by gripshift22 View Post
    this should be good. get ready for the wave of middle aged 50 something white conservative men who spent the the decades after the civil rights movement in a basement playing war games that make up a good portion of ddos player base to chime in a chastise u for being a "feminazi" and trying to explain the concept of gender roles. i learned a long time ago that ddo is not a place for PC discussions.. its best to just play the game,lol
    Good luck with that, I find the fantasy / sci fi fan base to be decades ahead of their time on equality issues and such. Star Trek in and of itself pushed the envelope. The way old school D&D rulebooks are printed, where they use female pronouns ~half the time when explaining rule examples is another solid highlight.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Good luck with that, I find the fantasy / sci fi fan base to be decades ahead of their time on equality issues and such. Star Trek in and of itself pushed the envelope. The way old school D&D rulebooks are printed, where they use female pronouns ~half the time when explaining rule examples is another solid highlight.
    just speaking to my experiences here on the forums. i seen many posts like this go south... real quick. just speaking from what iv seen here.

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    Community Member AsburyParker's Avatar
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    From Turbine’s perspective, I doubt that there is sufficient motivation to change the selectable option in character creation from gender to sex. Specifically, I don’t think that such a change would attract a substantial number of new players; neither do I think that not making the change would lose Turbine a substantial number of current players. The only possible motivation that I see for Trubine is to show that they are a particularly enlightened company. Without some notice able impact on player attraction/retention, I don’t expect the change to be done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    I just wanted to request, in the reincarnation thread, that we be able to change the sex of a character at the character creation screen during a TR or IR.
    Man, this has been requested for as long as I can remember. While I don't recall the specific thread, a Dev chimed in about this once and basically informed us that gender is so fundamentally intrinsic to character data, as in it's split along male/female lines from character creation onward, that to implement such a request would require an almost complete redesign of the database. Sadly, I don't think this is likely to happen.
    The newest computer can merely compound, at speed, the oldest problem in the relations between human beings, and in the end the communicator will be confronted with the old problem, of what to say and how to say it. - Edward R. Murrow (1964)

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    Community Member Ryiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    Then, as a 'might as well', I asked that the devs also amend the label for the male/female option from Gender to Sex.
    You're always going to offend someone if they try hard enough to find something to take offense at. No point trying to make every little thing "politically correct".
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    Community Member Saravis's Avatar
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    There's something I'm curious about in the actual concept of reincarnation is it possible to reincarnate into a different sex? In all the stories that I can think of, the sex is always the same; male to male and female to female.

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    There was that blind seer bloke / lady from Greek mythology whose name I can never remember, who lived as both a man and a woman.

    I think the big problem would be names. It'd be clumsy to allow you to change your sex without letting you change your name, and not letting you change your name is a considered position.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    English is a living language and as such it evolves.

    More relevant to the topic at hand, the correct term based on your cite is Gender. We're not choosing our characters' biological anatomy, we're choosing their gender appearance.
    We are choosing whether our characters are male or female; we are choosing attributes of their physical appearance, including their sex.

    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    At the risk of getting into a derail....the LCD is the only thing that DOES get to define/change the definition of words

    Language is only defined by how its most commonly used. Which is distinct from technical language, which is a 'dialect' of language used specifically in academic circles. In the 'dialect' of human behavior studies, "sex" and "gender" have discrete and different meanings. In common vernacular, aka whats 'spoken' in the forums, they're synonymous in most contexts.

    Just like you wouldnt cite computer science's definition of a "string" and say "Well actually, shoes aren't bound together with a set of non-numeric characters, so it should actually correctly be called shoe TWINE..."


    And yeah, since our avatars are merely representations of biologic organisms and not biologic organisms themselves (Ceci n'est pas une pipe), they have no actual genitalia nor chromosomes to define their biological sex - so gender would be the more appropriate word, using the technical definitions, though there's an assumption of gender normality.
    Reputable dictionaries should uphold a standard to indicate correct spelling, pronunciation, and usage. Once they cave in to people too lazy to learn even their native tongue properly, what is the point in publishing?

    Since shoelaces have been around longer than computers, and comp sci's version of string has a logical derivation from its predecessor, I declare Scarecrow on this point.

    My dolls are images of biological organisms, and the human(oid) ones are clearly of either male or female sex. It is how they were formed. Their gender is determined by the person playing them, and the roles they serve. (Pas d'importe, je ne fume pas). The sex of an organism is determined by genetic code; the sex of a character is determined by computer code. Sex can be a factor in gender, but that does not make gender synonymous with sex.

    Quote Originally Posted by BOgre View Post
    So, do you have a problem with the term Gender Reassignment? The surgery wouldn't be called Sex Reassignment, would it? Pretty sure the T in LGBT still stands for Trans-Gender...
    Sex reassignment would be inaccurate, because the physical form is being changed to come into alignment with the gender, not the other way around. Transsexuals are a subset of transgenders, and are included in the 'T'.

    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    No, identity is the better word for both wf and fleshies. You're choosing your character's gender identity, not its anatomy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Satyriasys View Post
    Pretty sure it's the other way around. I can rp my character with whatever identity I want but on character creation I choose the physical look (anatomy) of my toon.
    ^^ This.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dagolar View Post
    Rather, they're choosing to look that way.
    This is a world of magic, where you have cursed belts of gender-exploration.
    Transgenders might be about in more than just the usual manner- and if you were once once sex, and you chose to be another [or remain another after being forced into it], does it not become a matter of gender?

    Gender is best described as a person's sense of identity over both their anatomical and non-anatomical natures.
    So long as you remain in one form, regardless of other circumstances, it can always be considered a matter of Gender, regardless of if Sex is or is not more apt in the context.
    World of magic? Sure. Cursed belts of gender-exploration? Don't exist in DDO. What do they do, anyway? Make someone 'switch teams'?

    A person's sense of identity? That's what I have been saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    We never see a character's anatomy (it's a family friendly game), only the look. A man who identifies as a woman, and dresses/presents herself as a woman in real life, would choose a female avatar if she wanted the avatar to represent her identify.
    From what I have read in chat, most guys play female characters because they prefer watching a girl's bum to watching a guy's.

    Quote Originally Posted by Satyriasys View Post
    We are getting WAY off topic but given your definition of gender it does not contradict what I wrote. Regardless of the physical look of my character my gender can thus be whatever I decide it should be at any given time. The discussion began with someones suggestion of renaming gender to sex. If I am "choosing" to look that way via magic then sex is no longer the appropriate terminology for such an instance.
    My point is regardless of whether they use the word sex or gender depending on the individuals identity or motivating factor in making their decision the terms could either be correct or incorrect depending on the situation. It is therefore a pointless change as no word is going to adequately describe both situations.



    Pretty sure my female drow has cleavage, but whatever.. magic right?
    Thus far, magic has nothing to do with whether a character is male or female; this is an option decided in the character creation screen of a new character, and it cannot be changed in game (unlike hair color or style).
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    As I pointed out in the other thread, Ceci n'est pas une pipe. Discussing the biology and psychology of digital 3D models is as meaningless as trying to argue a certain phallicly shaped rock is somehow inherently male...

    The only correct way to phrase it would be "representation of secondary sex characteristics".
    Welcome to the light.

    So glad you didn't say, 'representation of secondary gender characteristics'.
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    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clatterfist View Post
    There was that blind seer bloke / lady from Greek mythology whose name I can never remember, who lived as both a man and a woman.

    I think the big problem would be names. It'd be clumsy to allow you to change your sex without letting you change your name, and not letting you change your name is a considered position.
    DDO store sells name changes, so they might allow it if they could.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AsburyParker View Post
    From Turbine’s perspective, I doubt that there is sufficient motivation to change the selectable option in character creation from gender to sex. Specifically, I don’t think that such a change would attract a substantial number of new players; neither do I think that not making the change would lose Turbine a substantial number of current players. The only possible motivation that I see for Trubine is to show that they are a particularly enlightened company. Without some notice able impact on player attraction/retention, I don’t expect the change to be done.
    Perhaps it will be enough that sex is half the size of gender, so will decrease the code by 3 characters times every place it exists.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryiah View Post
    You're always going to offend someone if they try hard enough to find something to take offense at. No point trying to make every little thing "politically correct".
    This is about grammatical correctness, not political correctness.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clatterfist View Post
    There was that blind seer bloke / lady from Greek mythology whose name I can never remember, who lived as both a man and a woman.
    Interesting

    Quote Originally Posted by Clatterfist View Post
    I think the big problem would be names. It'd be clumsy to allow you to change your sex without letting you change your name, and not letting you change your name is a considered position.
    I agree, I've raised that issue myself. If you start adding additional mechanics to the reincarnation process, Turbine is going to look into raising it's costs. Sex is purely cosmetic. If you want to be able to change it, request some sex change token to be added to the store.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saravis View Post
    There's something I'm curious about in the actual concept of reincarnation is it possible to reincarnate into a different sex? In all the stories that I can think of, the sex is always the same; male to male and female to female.
    Allow me to refer you to Cloud Atlas.
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    Coming soon to the DDO store!


    The Girdle of Femininity/Masculinity

    Such a girdle looks like an ordinary leather belt, but when worn immediately switches the wearer's sex to the opposite gender, then loses all power.
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    In the Lore sense: If this was put in, then WF would have to remain "gender" as their sexual identity has nothing to do with their physical body.

    In the Functional Sense: It's like discussing what "gender" or "sex" a statue is, as they are just digital models, and possess neither sexuality or gender identity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Satyriasys View Post
    Coming soon to the DDO store!


    The Girdle of Femininity/Masculinity

    Such a girdle looks like an ordinary leather belt, but when worn immediately switches the wearer's sex to the opposite gender, then loses all power.
    This could be a fun 'cursed' chest drop that doesn't reveal its true nature until equipped. lol
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