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  1. #381
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallout_Zero View Post
    What? The exploit was reported. Not only that just see the AH.
    The gist of the problem is Turbine didn't take action for days by which the exploit spread like wild fire.
    That was my point. I think an incentive system could work in theory to help slow down large exploits like this one, but that would require Turbine to actually act quickly when they get reports.
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  2. #382
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    If people are going to fully support p2w, then they should buy what they want from Turbine rather than exploiting to get it for free. Fully supporting p2w, then fully supporting exploitation to get things free, is a direct contradiction in logic.
    Not really...........hey I can bypass and get stuff by paying money instead of playing the game!!!! WHOOT!!!!! Damn now because of some exploit I can now save some $ and do it for Free!!!! Yay!!!!!

    Hmmm well even though I did take advantage I can still use my arguements for P2W as it *helps* pay for the game!!!!

  3. #383
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    There is a fundamental difference between what goes on in a simulation, and what actually happens in real life. There are lasting consequences to real life behaviors. The consequences of behavior in a video game can be erased with the flip of a switch. One concerns me FAR more than the other.

    Compelling and very well said. Did someone jack your account, or have my meds finally kicked in?

  4. #384
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    I've yet to see any compelling argument that anyone ever has been harmed by exploiters or DDO store shoppers in this game except perhaps the PvPers? (cue laughter). "Because it doesn't jibe with the way I like to play" isn't a reasonable definition of 'harm.'
    Conflict of interest. Turbine sells grind circumvention. People able to dupe items they would have to grind for no longer need to pay for grind circumvention. Turbine loses money. This is about as compelling as it gets froma business standpoint.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  5. #385
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    Not really...........hey I can bypass and get stuff by paying money instead of playing the game!!!! WHOOT!!!!! Damn now because of some exploit I can now save some $ and do it for Free!!!! Yay!!!!!

    Hmmm well even though I did take advantage I can still use my arguements for P2W as it *helps* pay for the game!!!!
    That is a direct conflict of interest for Turbine. In your example youre breaking the rules to get something they sell, grind circumvention, free of charge. Actions speak louder than words. If peopel truly supported p2w, they would buy grind circumvention instead of exploiting to get it free.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  6. #386
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    That was my point. I think an incentive system could work in theory to help slow down large exploits like this one, but that would require Turbine to actually act quickly when they get reports.

    Well that's what we've all been saying for years though, isn't it? 99% of this stuff is caught in Lamma or is a flare up of a previous issue (now it sounds like herpes), and if the game manufacturer, who caused the problem, isn't going to freak out over it, I'm not going to.


    I don't care if other players' virtual bank accounts and virtual bags keep getting virtually fatter, I will still keep playing the way I like to play it. Oh there was a renown thing? OK. A bag thing? OK. A CC wand thing? Whatever. A perching thing? Weird. A broken rewards thing? OK. New, better loot? Hmm. X isn't/is worth twice/half what it used to be? Fascinating. The drop rate is down/up? Amazing.

  7. #387
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    That is a direct conflict of interest for Turbine. In your example youre breaking the rules to get something they sell, grind circumvention, free of charge. Actions speak louder than words. If peopel truly supported p2w, they would buy grind circumvention instead of exploiting to get it free.
    You missed my point, they support P2W to get what they want, they then exploit to get what they want. Some might preach about helping the game via pay to win but I bet they will still jump at the opportunity to get free stuffz even if it hurts turbines bottom line.

    FYI chai I wasn't talking about *myself* I neither use TP to circumnavigate content, nor did I dupe stuff. I use TP to *get* content. Maybe xp pots is the most P2W thing I have ever used. I was just trying to tell it from maybe *someone* else's perspective.

    Meh this duping thing in some way hurt me, I didn't use it, and some of the stuff I might of traded away for more TP is now useless lol, oh well might mean some of my toons will get to use some stuff that I wouldn't of used, instead was saving to sell, and I usually sell stuff for a lot less TP than everyone else is asking for in market forums. Heck I might even be able to afford these stuff now with plat, if there is going to be such a glut, unless they are going after all the alt f2p accounts loaded to the gills with stuff that can fit in bags as well as banning accounts. Meh, maybe its a good thing if they see how this kind of thing might hurt their bottom line in a dramatic shortterm way? So they will actually care to do something faster in the future now?
    Last edited by NaturalHazard; 10-10-2013 at 03:04 PM.

  8. #388
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    Compelling and very well said. Did someone jack your account, or have my meds finally kicked in?
    It's the meds.

    You talking your meds make me even think I sound sane.

    They must be Ghostbane meds...

  9. #389
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    It's the meds.

    You talking your meds make me even think I sound sane.

    They must be Ghostbane meds...


    seems like every random term will produce some sort of picture on google

  10. #390
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    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    That was my point. I think an incentive system could work in theory to help slow down large exploits like this one, but that would require Turbine to actually act quickly when they get reports.
    You missed the point. It was reported and Turbine didn't do anything. And it just got worse daily. Frankly I was really surprised it went on so long, it tells me Turbine didn't find this serious.

  11. #391
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallout_Zero View Post
    You missed the point. It was reported and Turbine didn't do anything. And it just got worse daily. Frankly I was really surprised it went on so long, it tells me Turbine didn't find this serious.
    Remembering what went on in the past im not surprised at all.

    History often does repeat itself.

  12. #392
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Turbine charges for grind circumvention. People just gained huge amounts of grind circumvention free of charge but they had to break Turbines rules to do so. There is a direct conflict of interest when the "value" is measured in money.
    I agree. But that wasn't the gist of the discussion I quoted - I read the complaint of that thread of the conversation to be about the effect of the exploit on the in-game economy, not on the violation of Turbine rules and consequences. It appears to me, that players who did not benefit from the exploit want other players punished for ruining the economy and the value of their holdings, not because they violated Turbine's rules.

    There certainly is conflict here, and this is where the micro transaction model has issues - not the least of which is the near impossibility of a server rollback, as you have mentioned.



    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Those of you who were in full support of all these p2w antics over the years even as the degree was ramped up are kcking yourselves here, as that full unbridled support is in direct contradiction of any banter along the lines of Turbine needing to shore up their own ends befor ethey can blame others.
    Not sure what you are getting at here but I am certainly not, and have not been, in that camp. Perhaps this was being directed at some other posters? A bit more context would help.
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  13. #393
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    You missed my point, they support P2W to get what they want, they then exploit to get what they want. Some might preach about helping the game via pay to win but I bet they will still jump at the opportunity to get free stuffz even if it hurts turbines bottom line.
    I didnt miss the point at all. I just made my own as well. They supported p2w claiming Turbine needs the money to keep the game running, and then turn around and screw Turbine out of money by exploiting to get for free what they would otherwise have to pay for - grind circumvention.

    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    Meh this duping thing in some way hurt me, I didn't use it, and some of the stuff I might of traded away for more TP is now useless lol, oh well might mean some of my toons will get to use some stuff that I wouldn't of used, instead was saving to sell, and I usually sell stuff for a lot less TP than everyone else is asking for in market forums. Heck I might even be able to afford these stuff now with plat, if there is going to be such a glut, unless they are going after all the alt f2p accounts loaded to the gills with stuff that can fit in bags as well as banning accounts. Meh, maybe its a good thing if they see how this kind of thing might hurt their bottom line in a dramatic shortterm way? So they will actually care to do something faster in the future now?
    For me its not about whether or not it personally affects me. Its about disallowing justification of breaking the rules based on low impact, knowing that will merely turn into the same type of actions being committed with a higher impact and the same blanket justification used. Each time Turbine fails to act on this kind of stuff, its a conflict to their own interest in profiting from selling grind circumvention.
    Last edited by Chai; 10-10-2013 at 03:47 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  14. #394
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hafeal View Post
    I agree. But that wasn't the gist of the discussion I quoted - I read the complaint of that thread of the conversation to be about the effect of the exploit on the in-game economy, not on the violation of Turbine rules and consequences. It appears to me, that players who did not benefit from the exploit want other players punished for ruining the economy and the value of their holdings, not because they violated Turbine's rules.

    There certainly is conflict here, and this is where the micro transaction model has issues - not the least of which is the near impossibility of a server rollback, as you have mentioned.
    Im not on any crusade for moral virtue. I completely understand that in game economies bounce back and life goes on. At some point if exploitation is not curtailed the degree of it does ramp up and it does begin to affect everyone. Server rollbacks and such are a perfect example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hafeal View Post
    Not sure what you are getting at here but I am certainly not, and have not been, in that camp. Perhaps this was being directed at some other posters? A bit more context would help.
    The post was directed at those who strongly disagreed with me over the years on p2w discussions, claiming Turbine needs the money to fund their game, now trying to justify exploitation which literally gained players free grind circumvention - something they supported Turbine selling because they need the money. They know who they are.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  15. #395
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    I didnt miss the point at all. I just made my own as well. They supported p2w claiming Turbine needs the money to keep the game running, and then turn around and screw Turbine out of money by exploiting to get for free what they would otherwise have to pay for - grind circumvention.

    FYI chai I wasn't talking about *myself* I neither use TP to circumnavigate content, nor did I dupe stuff. I use TP to *get* content. Maybe xp pots is the most P2W thing I have ever used. I was just trying to tell it from maybe *someone* else's perspective.



    For me its not about whether or not it personally affects me. Its about disallowing justification of breaking the rules based on low impact, knowing that will merely turn into the same type of actions being committed with a higher impact and the same blanket justification used. Each time Turbine fails to act on this kind of stuff, its a conflict to their own interest in profiting from selling grind circumvention.
    Yeah well those who support P2W to bypass content saying its good for the game cause it gives the developer $ yet then turn around and leap at the chance to get free stuff instead of you know paying the developer......there's a word for those kinds of people it starts with H.

    Well the ball is again in turbines court, it is their game after all. But I think they look at $ from this game more on a short term basis than long term, it might of took them a bit longer to see how this could hurt their bottom line in the short term, I bet there was a few sales on shards as people made a rush to get shards to buy stuff for cheap while it still was available. But in the long run they might likely miss out on more bigger sales down the line.

  16. #396
    Community Member HernandoCortez's Avatar
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    This thread is epic.

    I think I know why servers have less and less PUGs...



    Let's play DDO, shall we?
    EXTREME PREJUDICE™ - by Turbine.

    GHOSTBANE™ - by Turbine.

  17. #397
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HernandoCortez View Post
    This thread is epic.

    I think I know why servers have less and less PUGs...



    Let's play DDO, shall we?
    Moar fun to troll people on here than in game I guess.

  18. #398
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    Quote Originally Posted by HernandoCortez View Post
    Let's play DDO, shall we?
    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    Moar fun to troll people on here than in game I guess.
    Can't play at work ...
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  19. #399
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hafeal View Post
    Can't play at work ...
    Yes, and can't play and do other stuff at the same time as well, well I can't really, not stuff thats going to pull me a away from the screen from time to time, though I could pike at entrance then run to end chest..........

  20. #400
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    Let me clue in. What you find valuable or not is not how its seen in the game. Keep spewing nonsense I'm in it for LOLs now.
    *sigh* all ******** aside, all **** said and done, really, if all you got from this game was baubles in a bag, you have my sympathies not my strife.

    At this point, the discussion just got depressing to me to see people acting like this over digital junk and things they will never own.

    Amidst this angst ridden forum discussion, I went to make an Alchemical Maul for a Dreaming Dark beater, I was rather amused that the mats for that raid and those items were not readily duped, or even duped at all from what I could find, a friend of mine handed me what I needed, not much, I just needed a power cell and he gave me 2 of them out of his hard earned stack of 9, no charge, no fuss, it is friendships like that, that keep people here, our fellow players, our friends, the people we play the game with, they are worth more then plat, more then gold, and more then the loot from a chest.

    Sorry, but reading that people feel that plat in the bank is all that is worthwhile to them is depressing to me, and I think now is the time for me to remove myself from this discussion, feel free to vent about whatever you think you lost and how much you got hurt by this when in reality nothing was taken from you, nothing was stolen from you, and you are still free to play the game as you like.

    Whatever.

    Going to go play a bit, and try to forget I ever got involved in this nonsense.

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