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  1. #361
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TBot1234 View Post

    I don't recall my Ethics professor covering the truism that ignoring a problem is usual the upright, proper, and moral thing to do. What philosopher espoused this view again? (expecting good replies here, gang).

    It's called hedonism. Your professor may not have covered it in class, but it better than even money the majority of your classmates (especially if you are talking about college) subscribed to that philosophy.

  2. #362
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    If they are junk, why are people duplicating them?
    Ease mostly, and because they did not enjoy grinding for them, really, it was fun to get something, there would be zero motive to game the system to get it. So it stands to reason that people duped either because 1) They wanted to save themselves a grind they did not enjoy, or 2) they had visions of becoming rich by their ill-begotten efforts.

    The people in group 2 got really shafted.. LOL.

  3. #363
    Community Member Robai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    It is just a few collectibles. ...
    Those "just a few collectables" are:
    - thousands of Shards/Seals/Scrolls (including SoS/RoSS shards/seals)
    - thousands of Commendations (including Heroic Commendations, bye bye FoT/Citw)
    - thousands of Dragon Scales (all colors, including flawless versions, bye bye VoN)
    - thousands of each of Shroud matts (bye bye Shroud)
    - thousands of rare Collectables
    - thousands of relics from GH (epic and non epic)
    - thousands of Mabar matts (= all your toons gets a free +5 tome if you had new matts, and just everything from Mabar for all your toons, without ever running it again)
    - thousands of Risia matts (including Icy burst kits)
    - thousands of Gold Festival Coins/Cookies/etc
    - thousands of house C crafting matts (= free +150 craft lvls for all your toons per just 1 day, on all your accounts, all servers)
    - thousands of Augments (including DDO store items like Jeweler's Tool Kits, Deathblock, etc., I've never seen Deathblock augment in AH for like 3 months)
    - thousands of Challenge Matts (bye bye groups for challenges)
    - thousands of Abbot/StormReaver seals
    - thousands of Elemental Essences/Cells from LoB raid (it was already dead, but now it's deadly dead)
    - etc (my mind just blew up)
    Last edited by TheRobai; 10-10-2013 at 02:14 PM.

  4. #364
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    Do you really call valuable bag items as junk and don't see the harm economywise and how this would have affected people running content?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Let me cue you in. They ARE junk, pointless baubles, and more worthless time sinks ... The reality is, Wealth is all a matter of what's valuable to you
    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    Let me clue in. What you find valuable or not is not how its seen in the game.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Its also a direct contradiction. If they are junk, why are people duplicating them? They arent junk, thats why. Anything stackable that fit into one of the bags was dupe-able. Youre not only incorrect in justification of exploiting as an absolute, youre also incorrect on the degree which it was done.
    Well, what I take from Ungood's comments is that the value of the pixels from this exploit is that they are just images to take up your time while you relax playing a game. In the game, sure, some players place high value on these object - but some don't. Part of the value is the DM's decision on how often you have to play to get a certain combinations of pixels. I read Ungood saying that you don't need these items to enjoy the game and if you are more about your 'wealth' v. your 'enjoyment' - that is, being able to lord it over your fellow players, then perhaps you migth consider re-thinking why you play an online game.
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  5. #365
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Ease mostly, and because they did not enjoy grinding for them, really, it was fun to get something, there would be zero motive to game the system to get it. So it stands to reason that people duped either because 1) They wanted to save themselves a grind they did not enjoy, or 2) they had visions of becoming rich by their ill-begotten efforts.

    The people in group 2 got really shafted.. LOL.
    1.) Turbine charges for grind circumvention - so its a direct conflict of interest to let it slide. That should be reason enough for them to step in and enforce their own rules.

    2.) The people who created mule accounts to store dragon scales and motes so they could store more stacks of coms on their mains are hardly getting shafted if getting rich in game was their goal.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  6. #366
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRobai View Post

    I have farmed rare collectable for years, farmed shroud matts for years, farmed von a lot, farmed craft essences a lot, etc...

    And all that hard work was nullified by this exploit.

    I don't understand this perspective. Games exist for entertainment and diversion: for fun. You receive virtual pixel rewards as a by-product of that fun. Your virtual pixel rewards have no RL value and can be eliminated, devalued (in game), made obsolete, or made relevant simply from updates.


    EG - How valuable is a bloodstone now? Turbine essentially made this the equivalent of a random drop in the last couple of updates. Do you regret playing sands content now? Should Turbine punish itself for nullifying all your 'hard work?'


    Although I admit it is a refreshing change to see Chai complaining about regular, old fashioned cheating rather than Turbine enabled 'pay to cheat' cheating.

  7. #367
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hafeal View Post
    Well, what I take from Ungood's comments is that the value of the pixels from this exploit is that they are just images to take up your time while you relax playing a game. In the game, sure, some players place high value on these object - but some don't. Part of the value is the DM's decision on how often you have to play to get a certain combinations of pixels. I read Ungood saying that you don't need these items to enjoy the game and if you are more about your 'wealth' v. your 'enjoyment' - that is, being able to lord it over your fellow players, then perhaps you migth consider re-thinking why you play an online game.

    Well said.

  8. #368
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    I agree with the suggestion to give massive incentives to those reporting exploits like this. It accomplishes more than it would initially seem to. Exploits spread by word of mouth. A friend tells a friend and so on. If there were a 5000 TP bounty on an exploit of this size, would you risk telling someone about it only to have them collect and possibly turn your name over for a bonus? Not only do you reward those who are honest, but you make it a lot less likely that the exploit will spread quickly.

    For this to work, you would need someone over at Turbine that would act quickly on it. This one spiraled out of control because of slow response time and all the incentives in the world won't increase response time if it's not taken seriously when reported.
    Kaarloe - Degenerate Matter - Argonnessen

  9. #369
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    people . .. this is old hat already. The bans are flowing like wine (according to some "other" sites). The guilty are getting punished.

    We have Epic TR details released, this is a much more trolleric topic. I declare this one dead.

  10. #370
    Community Member TBot1234's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    It's called hedonism. Your professor may not have covered it in class, but it better than even money the majority of your classmates (especially if you are talking about college) subscribed to that philosophy.

    Awesome!

    Now I'm off to think about how hedonism compares and contrasts with Kant's Categorical Imperative and Mill's Harm Principle.

    Thanks.
    "So maybe it's about time we all get a reality check and realize that if you raid, run epics, and have capped toons and worry about ED's TR's and all that jazz, you are a small part of the population of this game, a very small part in fact." -- Ungood

  11. #371
    Community Member Furbitor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uska View Post
    Actually myself I will quit if they don't fix this
    Promise? Naw you got to be lying thru your teeth Uska. You gonna quit if you cant git your way. you gonna shut down DDO cause you don't get what you want. LOL!!!!!!

    your folly is amazing.. its like you gonna crush your car because it got a flat. HAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHA!!

    mebbe you really are evil, Uska!!


    funny funny.....

  12. #372
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Ease mostly, and because they did not enjoy grinding for them, really, it was fun to get something, there would be zero motive to game the system to get it. So it stands to reason that people duped either because 1) They wanted to save themselves a grind they did not enjoy, or 2) they had visions of becoming rich by their ill-begotten efforts.

    The people in group 2 got really shafted.. LOL.

    You forgot group 3 (which is also the same group who complains the most about 'pay to win'): "I earned my "INSERT HERE" the hard way! Everyone else should have to do it too!"

  13. #373
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hafeal View Post
    Well, what I take from Ungood's comments is that the value of the pixels from this exploit is that they are just images to take up your time while you relax playing a game. In the game, sure, some players place high value on these object - but some don't. Part of the value is the DM's decision on how often you have to play to get a certain combinations of pixels. I read Ungood saying that you don't need these items to enjoy the game and if you are more about your 'wealth' v. your 'enjoyment' - that is, being able to lord it over your fellow players, then perhaps you migth consider re-thinking why you play an online game.
    Turbine charges for grind circumvention. People just gained huge amounts of grind circumvention free of charge but they had to break Turbines rules to do so. There is a direct conflict of interest when the "value" is measured in money.

    Those of you who were in full support of all these p2w antics over the years even as the degree was ramped up are kcking yourselves here, as that full unbridled support is in direct contradiction of any banter along the lines of Turbine needing to shore up their own ends befor ethey can blame others.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  14. #374
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Furbitor View Post
    Promise? Naw you got to be lying thru your teeth Uska. You gonna quit if you cant git your way. you gonna shut down DDO cause you don't get what you want. LOL!!!!!!

    Wait, are you saying all those rage-quits over "FILL IN THE BLANK" were essentially meaningless to Turbine? I find that hard to believe.

  15. #375
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    You forgot group 3 (which is also the same group who complains the most about 'pay to win'): "I earned my "INSERT HERE" the hard way! Everyone else should have to do it too!"
    If people are going to fully support p2w, then they should buy what they want from Turbine rather than exploiting to get it for free. Fully supporting p2w, then fully supporting exploitation to get things free, is a direct contradiction in logic.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  16. #376
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLegendOfAra View Post
    The greatest irony of the internet, and especially game forums(these forums in particular) is that there are hundreds of people claiming the moral high ground, touting their holier-than-thou attitudes and shoving the "I am better than you because I didn't use an exploit for blahblahblah..."(you see this is any exploit situation) down others throats.

    If they really had the moral high ground, and were better than me in any way, they wouldn't be on these forums, screaming for banhammers, and raging at exploiters. They would simply do the right thing, and move on. We're all messed up people, it's just to what degree and in what variety. Am I any worse than anyone else because I use an exploit for my own gain when it does not have any impact what-so-ever on anyone else, when you come to the forums and berate me for doing so because you're the better person who has morals?

    TL;DR

    We're all bad people and we should all feel bad, but we don't.

    /hyperbole
    The Sky is falling, the sky is falling! It's the end of the game, and we're all doooo0o0o0o0o0o0oomed!
    People who are preaching "moral" and screaming for ban hammer every 5 minutes on here are doing so for one reason - they need to convince themselves they are better than you and they need that because: 1) they didn't use this exploit ('cause they didn't know how to or were smart enough to figure out how bad it was for economy) but they use every other exploit there was in ddo, including cove, bags trading and the ongoing ed twists. 2) They are some of those "traders" that think of themselves as "very rich" and now their "wealth" (acquired in fierce competition over the limited resources in a dying game) is undermined by the exploited goods. If they were really better than you, they wouldn't have the need to say it loud every forum post.

  17. #377
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    So do I blame the lock maker or the door maker for not holding up to the hydraulic ram the thief used to break in? Because, by your logic the actions and intent of the thief isn't an issue.
    Quote Originally Posted by Forzah View Post
    So, secretly grabbing money from the bank in Monopoly isn't cheating? Or peeking at other peoples hands while playing cards? I don't want to play games with you then...
    Can you control or limit the actions of either thief in these situations? No?

    Well, in both examples, if this were to occur in a video game, they WOULD be able to control their actions and limit what the thieves can do. Because – unlike REAL life – the rules that govern video games are narrow, and well defined within the code.

    Turbine owns the video game, they make the rules, they set the boundaries, they control 100% of the content. They can allow or disallow anything so long as the client and servers are not modified by an external source (e.g. hacked).

    I’m fairly big on the “Thou Shalt Not…” stuff. But the entity that made DDO does not have their image painted on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel (unless Cordovan has a gray beard, long gray hair, and floats around on a cloud nekked). The people at Turbine own and control it 100%. Any and all responsibility for what has happened lies with them, and not the “cheaters.”

    There is a fundamental difference between what goes on in a simulation, and what actually happens in real life. There are lasting consequences to real life behaviors. The consequences of behavior in a video game can be erased with the flip of a switch. One concerns me FAR more than the other.

  18. #378
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    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    I agree with the suggestion to give massive incentives to those reporting exploits like this. It accomplishes more than it would initially seem to. Exploits spread by word of mouth. A friend tells a friend and so on. If there were a 5000 TP bounty on an exploit of this size, would you risk telling someone about it only to have them collect and possibly turn your name over for a bonus? Not only do you reward those who are honest, but you make it a lot less likely that the exploit will spread quickly.

    For this to work, you would need someone over at Turbine that would act quickly on it. This one spiraled out of control because of slow response time and all the incentives in the world won't increase response time if it's not taken seriously when reported.
    What? The exploit was reported. Not only that just see the AH.
    The gist of the problem is Turbine didn't take action for days by which the exploit spread like wild fire.

  19. #379
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TBot1234 View Post
    Awesome!

    Now I'm off to think about how hedonism compares and contrasts with Kant's Categorical Imperative and Mill's Harm Principle.

    Thanks.


    Is it the consequences of actions that make them right or wrong, or the motives of the person who carries out the action?


    I've yet to see any compelling argument that anyone ever has been harmed by exploiters or DDO store shoppers in this game except perhaps the PvPers? (cue laughter). "Because it doesn't jibe with the way I like to play" isn't a reasonable definition of 'harm.'

  20. #380
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fallout_zero View Post
    what? The exploit was reported. Not only that just see the ah.
    The gist of the problem is turbine didn't take action for weeks by which the exploit spread like wild fire.
    ftfy.

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