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  1. #301
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    And the problem is that people only look at the lost revenue from banned cheaters in making that assessment, rather than also considering how much revenue is lost by players leaving due to the effects of cheating not being taken seriously.
    3ish people versus thousands. I know math never solved any problem, but this seems kinda obvious.

  2. #302
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    Quote Originally Posted by sebastianosmith View Post
    You are free to choose. At a personal level, morals may be supplemented by ethics. The true impact of your actions must be measured against how such actions will affect other players regardless of punishment. If you've no qualms about utilizing an exploit provided you are soloing or no fellow party members object, I should think you would be ethically justified in doing so.

    I will not attempt to open debate as to what rule set should be followed to quantify objections to using exploits by other party members. That is another can of worms entirely.
    It may be my bad english, but you seem to be one of the few people who gets what I mean - I want do play in a way, where I will not damage other people much , simply because I like to think about myself as a decent human being (ofc that in normal situation, I preffer myself over others but I am willing to sacrifice little comfort for great benefit of someone who is in need).
    My topic is about: If I did and helped hurt the economics by that, I would feel bad. But at this point, the exploit is so well known and it seems that not beeing punished, that by doing it I would not hurt anyone and by not doing it, I only did hurt myself.

  3. #303
    Hero JOTMON's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    No one is failing to comprehand that - its part of the agreement we signed when we made our accounts - the same agreement the exploiters violated.
    Technically we didnt sign anything.
    it was more of a scroll down on a wall of text ... blah blah blah...whatever... just here to play a game....(most have never read at all.. let alone in its entirety)
    click "Accept" to continue to the game.


    ...Just saying...

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    You continued playing after all that happened to you? Thats why Turbine gets away with it.
    Turbine has a good product despite the poor customer service..

    If this game wasnt so addicting....
    Last edited by JOTMON; 10-10-2013 at 10:03 AM.
    Jotmon - Let's not forget why we play these games - to have fun - ~
    Guild: Degenerate Matter - 200 (Former Guilds: ChaosKnights, Big Damn Heroes, Shadowfiends, Order of the Drow, Unusual Suspects, Raided R)
    Argo-Jotmon(Completionist - before the Otto's/XP pots easymode), Jotmonheals(Clr17/Rog2/Mnk1-Epic Completionist), Whatthetruck.. and many many more alts..

    Update 24: Champions... "whew, it's ok, it's only a red name" .. sad day when trash spawn Champions and their one-shot ignore fort attacks instill more party fear than the Red named bosses.

  4. #304
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JOTMON View Post
    Technically we didnt sign anything.
    it was more of a scroll down on a wall of text ... blah blah blah...whatever... just here to play a game....(most have never read at all.. let alone in its entirety)
    click "Accept" to continue to the game.


    ...Just saying...
    Doesn't matter if you read it or not. You are still held responsible and you can't use "wall of text" as an excuse for anything.

  5. #305
    Community Member Snapdragoon's Avatar
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    bright side, plat didn't decrease in value XD

    the only people this effected negatively were people that already had lots of wealth, so I don't care. a lot of new or poor players able to get access to decent gear? sweet, good for them.

    as for the ASAH. . .I don't use it or keep track of it so I could care less if it burns, if people do loose real money that sucks though.


    what I witnessed personally was:
    1) the largest amount of players on the server in some time
    2) raids getting run by everyone, noob and vet, that had been deemed useless and too much of a grind.

    safeguards are still in place to prevent easy acquisition of gear (ee favor or heroic comms for dragon armor, if they already have these then they already ran the content anyway. shards and the like in shroud and LoB)


    I know quite a few dupers, and *the moment* turbine made an announcement saying stop doing this they quit.

  6. #306
    Hero JOTMON's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    Doesn't matter if you read it or not. You are still held responsible and you can't use "wall of text" as an excuse for anything.
    It is still meaingless.

    It doesnt matter what you agreed to when you agreed to it.

    Turbine changes the rules as they like whenever they want, it is their game.

    They dont have to justify anything to the player base or be held accountable for their choices, they can punish anyone for whatever they want with no reason required.
    Jotmon - Let's not forget why we play these games - to have fun - ~
    Guild: Degenerate Matter - 200 (Former Guilds: ChaosKnights, Big Damn Heroes, Shadowfiends, Order of the Drow, Unusual Suspects, Raided R)
    Argo-Jotmon(Completionist - before the Otto's/XP pots easymode), Jotmonheals(Clr17/Rog2/Mnk1-Epic Completionist), Whatthetruck.. and many many more alts..

    Update 24: Champions... "whew, it's ok, it's only a red name" .. sad day when trash spawn Champions and their one-shot ignore fort attacks instill more party fear than the Red named bosses.

  7. #307
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    3ish people versus thousands. I know math never solved any problem, but this seems kinda obvious.
    Cant just claim the "thousands" are on your side simply because they arent here speaking for themselves.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  8. #308
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    3ish people versus thousands. I know math never solved any problem, but this seems kinda obvious.
    You're just making up nonsense. Not much point in even discussing this further.

  9. #309
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Now who is passing their made up opinion off as fact here - something you pointed out in others, but are doing yourself. Only a handful of casuals left? LOL.

    I have been the one waging the argument of degree and not of absolutes for the entire time ive been on these forums. I even use the phrase "its not an argument of absolutes but an argument of degree" quite often. You think youre pointing out to me that its not all black and white, and then in the same post saying only a few casuals would be left if they banned the exploiters?
    LOL, and where do you think the high end items that were made come from? Honest, EULA fearing players? or people with time to sink into this game to get the base mats and the know how to use them.

    The reality you think youve welcomed me to, is that they make more money by offloading the exploiters. If they do not they are basically holding the door open for anyone who wishes to exploit, and in doing so, demonstrate players do not need to pay to acquire, when they can dupe to acquire for free. All these paying customers you think they are keeping, begin exploiting too, because its been clearly demonstrated there is little to no penalty for doing so. This is not only what will happen in the future, it is what has been happening for years now, and why this situation exists in the first place.
    Dude, they have no fixed the ED bug, and it's been over a month, they have the door wide open at this point. If they wanted to make an example of expecting honest game play, they need to fix their game first.

  10. #310
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JOTMON View Post
    It is still meaingless.

    It doesnt matter what you agreed to when you agreed to it.

    Turbine changes the rules as they like whenever they want, it is their game.

    They dont have to justify anything to the player base or be held accountable for their choices, they can punish anyone for whatever they want with no reason required.
    You agreed that they get to change the rules whenever they want AND that you would not exploit.. Every single thing you typed there is somethign you agreed to, as did everyone else who plays.

    That does not make it meaningless however. It does matter what you agreed to and when you agreed to it. It even literally states in that agreement that the one course of action you have should you choose to disagree, is to quit playing. Since people violated that agreement, time for them to move along.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  11. #311
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    LOL, and where do you think the high end items that were made come from? Honest, EULA fearing players? or people with time to sink into this game to get the base mats and the know how to use them.
    One does not exclude the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Dude, they have no fixed the ED bug, and it's been over a month, they have the door wide open at this point. If they wanted to make an example of expecting honest game play, they need to fix their game first.
    Its been quite longer than a month. Its been more than a year on that one. The door being wide open is what is in question. This does not make it OK for folks to take advantage however. Fixing their game in part means offloading the exploiters, as well as closing the door on specific exploits. Only then can an environment exist where people wont exploit. If this doesnt happen, when the next exploit comes along, and it will, those same folks will do it all over again - how do I know this? Its been happening for years now.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  12. #312
    Hero JOTMON's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    You agreed that they get to change the rules whenever they want AND that you would not exploit.. Every single thing you typed there is somethign you agreed to, as did everyone else who plays.

    That does not make it meaningless however. It does matter what you agreed to and when you agreed to it.

    When I bougth the box pack of the shelf and signed up as a VIP my agreement gave me access to everything including any and all future content will be included as a VIP.
    Then they changed it and added "(excluding expansions)".

    I didnt agree to the change and yet I still had to buy the expansion if I wanted to continue to play new content..
    This wasn't grandfathered to my original agreement.

    so it doesnt matter when or what you agreed to.
    The only thing that matters is what they decide the rules are today... tomorrow, who knows..
    Jotmon - Let's not forget why we play these games - to have fun - ~
    Guild: Degenerate Matter - 200 (Former Guilds: ChaosKnights, Big Damn Heroes, Shadowfiends, Order of the Drow, Unusual Suspects, Raided R)
    Argo-Jotmon(Completionist - before the Otto's/XP pots easymode), Jotmonheals(Clr17/Rog2/Mnk1-Epic Completionist), Whatthetruck.. and many many more alts..

    Update 24: Champions... "whew, it's ok, it's only a red name" .. sad day when trash spawn Champions and their one-shot ignore fort attacks instill more party fear than the Red named bosses.

  13. #313
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Cant just claim the "thousands" are on your side simply because they arent here speaking for themselves.
    Yes I can. Haven't you learned by now that I can claim just about anything no matter how outrageous?

    Yes, I also invented the question-mark.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    You're just making up nonsense. Not much point in even discussing this further.
    I don't make up nonsense, I make up facts. I should get a career in politics.
    Last edited by Teh_Troll; 10-10-2013 at 10:30 AM.

  14. #314
    Community Member DeKalbSun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by viktorserak View Post
    Nope. I havent cheated because:

    1. I havent seen any point in cheating - I believed, based on previous experience with other games, that when duping occurs, server rollback follows.
    2. I generally see cheating in multiplayer and not among close friends a bad taste (my monday tabletops are fun :-) ). Mainly because it hurts those that dont cheat. So, and from your tone I belive you will not like my response and possibly not believe it (which I dont care about), I havent cheated out of human decency.

    But this post is about simple thing - I am NOT taking moral highgroud here. what I am doing here:

    I am asking if I interpreted morals based by the ingame culture of DDO wrongly here.

    I simply believed that duping is THE worst "crime" in MMOs in generall and its not only against the rules, but its actually moraly wrong as well (as it destabilizes the game and one cannot escape it, unlike the ED bug). Yet I dont see any punishement layed on anybody, neither I heard about any and all dupers I personally know of are enjoying their fortune.
    Those are dupers across all servers except for Wayfinder (I dont know anyone on Wayfinder becaouse.... well, it wayfinder), so its not issue of: Devs havent got to that server yet. By that, i can only assume that Turbine is either extremely slow or doesnt care. If they dont really care, then it is okay - in which case, if it is normal and many ppl are doing it, I am not gonna hurt anyone by doing so as well (as my personal action wont matter, if 20% of the server is duping, it is pretty much pointless not to duplicate because I dont want to negatively affect someone who is negatively affected already) and I will, ofc, want to do it as well next time.

    To put it in two sentences:

    I thought it would be unfair and wrong (and pointless) to cheat. Since I dont see any actions taken against anybody who did, I now think it was unfair and wrong (and pointless) not to cheat, because i wrongly assumed that morals in this game are set differently then they really are.

    I am not dissapointed by that (well, maybe a little), I just want to be clear howshould I behave next time.

    and about morals:

    Morals are definitely based on other people behavior. Moral integrity and moral upholding comes, of course, from every individual.

    And paladins are garbage, of course.


    So you are posting here to ask permission from the forums to cheat? You need us to tell you how to behave? How does you not
    cheating negatively affect anyone but you? If you feel its moraly wrong to cheat, which duping is, then why do you feel
    its okay just because a bunch of others do it? I personaly don't care if you cheat. If you feel okay with compromising your
    own morals, which you stated goes against duping, then go ahead. You don't need to come here and ask our permission.
    Mangas Geronimo (Paladin) Grocery Baggs (Ranger) Naiche Geronimo (Cleric)

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  15. #315
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    I'm really disappointed this isn't about the Egg Hunt in the Marketplace. I got all excited thinking it was back, but no, this is just another stupid thread about an exploit.

  16. #316
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JOTMON View Post
    When I bougth the box pack of the shelf and signed up as a VIP my agreement gave me access to everything including any and all future content will be included as a VIP.
    Then they changed it and added "(excluding expansions)".

    I didnt agree to the change and yet I still had to buy the expansion if I wanted to continue to play new content..
    This wasn't grandfathered to my original agreement.

    so it doesnt matter when or what you agreed to.
    The only thing that matters is what they decide the rules are today... tomorrow, who knows..
    Yeap, and you agreed that gameplay experience may change at any time, with or without warning, thus giving them license to alter the agreement, and pray they do not alter it any further.

    WHen I brought this up over a year ago with the selling of the first expansion, many of the people who are now saying Turbine needs to fix themselves first were in full support of having to pay for the expansion, most using "other MMOs do it" as justification. 9I also note many of those folks will be the first to point out that DDO is not "other MMOs when Im the one making the comparison).
    Last edited by Chai; 10-10-2013 at 10:33 AM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  17. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallout_Zero View Post
    Putting the horse ahead of the cart does squat if the cart's wheels are broken. Fix the cart first.

    Well, the horse would still pull the cart. Just not that smoothly and far before it drops dead from exhaustion.
    So the real question is: How valuable is the horse?

  18. #318
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DunkleNymphe View Post
    Well, the horse would still pull the cart. Just not that smoothly and far before it drops dead from exhaustion.
    So the real question is: How valuable is the horse?
    Since the horse is the customer in this analogy, the most important person in the equation.

    The horse could also be the company itself, and in that case, important especially for those who work there, as its the entity that puts food on their tables.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  19. #319
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    One does not exclude the other.
    Be that as it may, it does exclude non-paying customers.

    Its been quite longer than a month. Its been more than a year on that one. The door being wide open is what is in question. This does not make it OK for folks to take advantage however.
    Sure it does. The only problem here was how it cut into the Shard Exchange, otherwise, this is a non-issue, like all the other bugs.

    It's been better for the game overall as well, your outrage over this makes me think your paying your mortgage bu selling in game items for real cash and that is why you worry about your precious economy. I wonder, you seem awfully informed about gold selling too... and mention a great deal of out rage that Turbines sells their own stuff, is there something about your investment in this game you want to share?

  20. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeKalbSun View Post
    So you are posting here to ask permission from the forums to cheat? You need us to tell you how to behave? How does you not
    cheating negatively affect anyone but you? If you feel its moraly wrong to cheat, which duping is, then why do you feel
    its okay just because a bunch of others do it? I personaly don't care if you cheat. If you feel okay with compromising your
    own morals, which you stated goes against duping, then go ahead. You don't need to come here and ask our permission.
    I could be wrong, but I think he is clear on the morality of the issue, and is just trying to determine if it is ethical or not in DDO.

    The answer will come with the bans. Wrist slap = ethical, Permaban = not ethical.

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