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  1. #261
    Community Member fco-karatekid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Is there already a term out for when people just make up stuff and try to pass it off as fact?
    Politician

  2. #262
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Yeap and is there a term for when people on both sides are doing it, but only the side the accuser is biased against is accused of it.

    Lack of maintaining integrity of the entity that pays their bills loses more customers in the long run then offloading some exploiters as an example and deterrent in the future.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  3. #263
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archangel_666 View Post
    Just a minor point, (I'm not disagreeing with you btw), but it's worth mentioning that even "The disgruntled hanger on-ers who still play but refuse to spend due to lack of focus on the game itself" are worth trying to keep. They reduce the whole Server Ghost Town syndrome. Even if they don't throw up an LFM they still help because if a player is running through the Houses to a quest and passes a hundred other players the game feels more alive than if they made the same journey and passed two players.
    It depends. Do those people PUG and are they positive toward newcomers, or do they seclude themselves in their own groups and never play outside their own guilds / channels. If its the latter, they already contribute to the ghost town syndrome.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  4. #264
    Community Member kinggartk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brigadoom View Post
    As a byproduct of these activities, Turbine (and Turbine alone) can view the actual impact on the game measured in a deviation from the current subscriber trend. For the uninformed, this is called “data”.
    Point of Order!!! That is actually called information. Data is useless until it is turned into information.

  5. #265
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallout_Zero View Post
    Just silently mass banning does little. They did some banning in Mabar, people barely remember it or just vaguely heard about it.
    Silent bannings are absolutely worthless. Perma-ban 10 guys on every server (find the 10 worst offenders or randomly pick from the 500 people who exploited) and ANNOUNCE you have perma-banned some people...

    That will keep 95% of the server from exploiting next time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  6. #266
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Lack of maintaining integrity of the entity that pays their bills loses more customers in the long run then offloading some exploiters as an example and deterrent in the future.
    You know, you are not incorrect, but you are wrong in application, you see, that only works for a growing game or a game that is on it's starting block, so 3 years ago, when it first went F2P, and was on the up and up, I would have agreed with you, at that time. setting examples would be the right thing to do, they had the clout and volume to ban with impunity.

    Wake up, it's been 4 years since DDO has seen any real growth, it's an older game, with glaring exploits (like the ED using at Heroic levels) and many game breaking and quest stopping bugs and issues. If they were going to send a message about exploiting their game, it should also involve anyone that used ED in heroic content, after all, a rule breaker is a rule breaker.

    How about a reality check, they can't at this point really go banning everyone for using any exploit, as they would have what? a handful of casuals left, if that, they may as well close their doors, and to say one exploit is worse then another, is also wrong, either you are or are not breaking the EULA contract.

    If you are going to ban exploiters, then ban them all, otherwise, you have already compromised yourself.

    Welcome to reality dude, it's not black and white, it's not cut and dried.

  7. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Putting the cart before the horse. Many people no longer spend because of the atmosphere of lack of caring about bugs and exploits that has been cultivated. More players would spend if they showed initiative to the contrary, and back up the integrity of the product with fixes and enforcement of the rules.

    DDO lost a player, but not a paying customer. People who are happy with the game don't exploit. The disgruntled hanger oners who still play but refuse to spend due to lack of focus on the game itself are more likely to take part in exploits. The big spenders just buy what they want.

    They have to fix themselves first? Part of fixing themselves is offloading exploiters.
    I don't think it is a matter of being disgruntled or happy, or paying or not. It is simply a matter of human nature. The exploit meant a chance to get something for free, but against the rules. Getting it FOR FREE is the important thing here. That's the motivation for doing it, but they should have seen that it was against the rules or - morally speaking again - agsinst the "spirit of the game". So, I fully agree that there has to be some kind of punishment for using the exploit.

    In theory.

    In practice, I see a lot of problems: I am most concerned that Turbine just messes things up and mistakenly punishes the innocent. That this may happen is not at all far-fetched given that Turbine is notorious for doing things "wrong". If they are unable to fix bugs quickly and throroughly, why would they be able to sort out the "wrongdoers" any better? If I find out that my gardener doesn't properly mow my lawn, would I trust him weeding out my rose garden? I don't think so.
    There may also be legal implications concerning the validity of the EULA outside the USA. I really don't want to see a lawsuit about that, because it will hurt the game a lot more in the public (gamer) opinion.

    At the moment, I think Turbine is in a position where no decision is or can be the "right" one. It's lose/lose for Turbine whatever they do, sadly. And that means lose/lose for anyone who likes playing the game, exploiter or non-exploiter.

    I don't believe for a moment that exploiters don't like the game. They may be greedy or lazy or lacking conscience or lacking foresight. But I suppose someone who doesn't like to play the game wouldn't exploit, but instead go and play a different game.

    Where does that leave everyone? Definitely worse off than 2 weeks ago.
    Noone is interested in this game going downhill. The problem ist a lack of trust. A lack of trust in Turbine to fix bugs and act accordingly in crisis situations (and not just this one). A lack of trust in players not to exploit without the threat of disciplanary action looming above them.

    So this leaves the appeal to everyone to act responsible and find a way to trust each other again. Without trust, the game is doomed, so the focus should lie in finding a way to rebuild trust.

  8. #268
    Community Member Sarzor's Avatar
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    I love seeing the moral high ground people are taking on the forum. There have been several people I know for a fact used the bug, who on the forum are claiming they never touched it.

    Alternately, as Bimbelbo pointed out, many people are self-justifying saying they didn't use the bug out of moral superiority, but in fact it's all because they were afraid of being caught, or didn't know about it.

    I place the blame for this squarely on Turbine because:
    1) No announcement saying to not do it even though they knew about it.
    2) Should have taken the game down immediately pending a fix. It's obvious it didn't take long to fix as we saw one was done by Tuesday.
    3) Shoddy coding. Shoddy QA/QC. We've been complaining about bugs for so long on this game. There is game-breaking lag, which is effectively a bug working against the player. Bugs which help players, no matter how minor are fixed quickly, whereas serious bugs which hurt players linger around for years.
    4) Turbine likely made a small fortune off of augment bags, astral shards, etc. They likely lost money on selling certain augments, etc, but I suspect they made out well this weekend. I think everyone knew the ASAH was going to bite someone in the rear, but I suspect they didn't think it would be themselves.
    5) Kinda tying into the rest of the points, they've cultured a playerbase which is upset with the company, and are surprised people want to take it out on them? A player in one of my channels deliberately made a number of items they knew would hurt Turbine's pocketbook the most, for no reason other than pure spite. I've played a number of other games, where the playerbase took pride in the game, in no small part because the developers did, and were happy to talk with the players and fix whatever was broken, even if it was to the company's advantage. Turbine has cultivated a culture of "us vs. them" instead of a culture of "hey, let's work together to make DDO awesome."

  9. #269
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    It depends. Do those people PUG and are they positive toward newcomers, or do they seclude themselves in their own groups and never play outside their own guilds / channels. If its the latter, they already contribute to the ghost town syndrome.
    Oh they PUG alright. Already seen a spike in raids and PUGs going on where people are just giving away the mats, because they have enough, in fact, if not for the ShardAH problem (which really, I never liked the idea of the Shard AH), this would have been great for the game, as it gave a lot of players an abundance of mats so they could be far more charitable to everyone else, as opposed to vets and people just getting into the scene needing to compete against each other for every scrap of junk.

    Not to mention that it seems to have move people to go back and do some of the older raids because they have means to make doing them worth the time and not so much a greed fest anymore. I saw a PUG LOB up for the like the first time in over a month yesterday.

    So yah, it's looking to be great for the games community overall.

  10. #270
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Also how many people are in the mode of "not another dime until they fix these issues" mode, who might spend more money if some initiative was shown to protect the integrity of the game in the first place.
    You and Thrudh makes 2.

  11. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    How about a reality check, they can't at this point really go banning everyone for using any exploit, as they would have what? a handful of casuals left, if that, they may as well close their doors, and to say one exploit is worse then another, is also wrong, either you are or are not breaking the EULA contract.

    If you are going to ban exploiters, then ban them all, otherwise, you have already compromised yourself.

    Welcome to reality dude, it's not black and white, it's not cut and dried.
    I think you are contradicting yourself. As you said, the world is not black and white. I agree.
    And that leaves a lot of question marks about when someone is or is not breaking the EULA. First, a contract can only be broken if it is valid in the first place.
    Next comes the question of interpretation. Does the EULA cover the specific case and can it be a summarized under breaking the EULA?
    There's room for argumentation apparently, or we wouldn't be seeing hundreds of posts in different threads.

    I'm an attorney, by the way. I am stating everything as general questions, because though I have my own opionion about the legal situation, I am not going to share it here.

  12. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarzor View Post
    I love seeing the moral high ground people are taking on the forum. There have been several people I know for a fact used the bug, who on the forum are claiming they never touched it.

    Alternately, as Bimbelbo pointed out, many people are self-justifying saying they didn't use the bug out of moral superiority, but in fact it's all because they were afraid of being caught, or didn't know about it.

    I place the blame for this squarely on Turbine because:
    1) No announcement saying to not do it even though they knew about it.
    2) Should have taken the game down immediately pending a fix. It's obvious it didn't take long to fix as we saw one was done by Tuesday.
    3) Shoddy coding. Shoddy QA/QC. We've been complaining about bugs for so long on this game. There is game-breaking lag, which is effectively a bug working against the player. Bugs which help players, no matter how minor are fixed quickly, whereas serious bugs which hurt players linger around for years.
    4) Turbine likely made a small fortune off of augment bags, astral shards, etc. They likely lost money on selling certain augments, etc, but I suspect they made out well this weekend. I think everyone knew the ASAH was going to bite someone in the rear, but I suspect they didn't think it would be themselves.
    5) Kinda tying into the rest of the points, they've cultured a playerbase which is upset with the company, and are surprised people want to take it out on them? A player in one of my channels deliberately made a number of items they knew would hurt Turbine's pocketbook the most, for no reason other than pure spite. I've played a number of other games, where the playerbase took pride in the game, in no small part because the developers did, and were happy to talk with the players and fix whatever was broken, even if it was to the company's advantage. Turbine has cultivated a culture of "us vs. them" instead of a culture of "hey, let's work together to make DDO awesome."
    1: it's duping, that is about as black and white as it gets when trying to work out if something is an exploit or not in any MMO. it's about as black and white as using wallhacks in an online FPS is.

    2: not sure either way on this, partly because DDO is non-competitive which makes even blatant exploits like duping less of an issue than it would in a PvP MMO. as it was i lost 2 hours on a rare evening of getting a friend to play DDO to the hot fix, sucky timing but we still managed to have fun either side of the hot fix. it's a lose lose situation when the few mess up the game for the many.

    3: yes and no, it is shoddy coding but even given more resources to doing things right exploits still rear their ugly head from time to time.

    4: AS especially, really hate to think that might have been a contributing factor to turbines response, but then i try my best not to wear a tin foil hat

    5: yes to all of this, and if the punishment is a 5 day ban without the items being stripped then it's going to be even worse next time. we've all seen the "exploit early and exploit often" mentality banged about these forums, if turbine want to change that than for things like this they have to make it very clear it's not worth milking an exploit. that is the easy bit. rebuilding that community with the players is the hard bit but i have seen some progress on that front. there has for example been more forum interaction in the past few months

    here's hoping this is a lightning rod for change for the better
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  13. #273
    Community Member Capricorpus's Avatar
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    Happily, it isn't much of a problem on Cannith.

    I'm sure things can be pretty frustrating on some of the other servers right now, though.
    Cannith: Capricorpus (triple all heroic/iconic/epic past lives, no stones) / Capiorcorpus / Capicorpus / Capricopus / Iconless the Hero

  14. #274
    Community Member Robai's Avatar
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    Dragonscales? Meh.

    Heroic comms/Shards/Seals/Scrolls/+150 Craft lvls per 1 day for free/Challenge Matts/Rare Collectables/Augments/Abbot seals/etc.
    I.e. almost everything you had lost its value.

  15. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Putting the cart before the horse. Many people no longer spend because of the atmosphere of lack of caring about bugs and exploits that has been cultivated. More players would spend if they showed initiative to the contrary, and back up the integrity of the product with fixes and enforcement of the rules.

    DDO lost a player, but not a paying customer. People who are happy with the game don't exploit. The disgruntled hanger oners who still play but refuse to spend due to lack of focus on the game itself are more likely to take part in exploits. The big spenders just buy what they want.

    They have to fix themselves first? Part of fixing themselves is offloading exploiters. All that happens when they are handed token 7 day bans and they come back to the game with all their ill gotten gains intact is exploit again. The "penalty" is an easy price to pay for circumventing the many many more hours farming all the stuff they took minutes to dupe, and 7 days of not playing to get.
    People who don't spend money, won't spend money regardless. Bugs, lack of end game content, hamster wheel grinding etc. Exploits is a reason, but not the sole reason people don't spend money. And people who does spend money, tomes, Otto boxes etc, will continue to do so. The other thread there was this women who mention she and her husband spent over a thousand during their play here. DDO relies on those types of customers, vs F2P who are goodie-two-shoes but won't spend a dime. Can't apply same principles of mass ban like Blizzard's WOW.

    And the ones who needs to lesson are the exploiters. Perma-ban? Lesson learnt, they move on to other things. DDO is the one who got hurt. Mabar they banned, and guess what, far more people took part in this exploit.

    They have to fix themselves with changing their policy first. Like I said, they could have nipped this in the bud before it got crazy. But guess what they didn't. They need to fix themselves first, simple as that. In the ideal world things are black and white. In the real world, its infinite shades of grey. Should people who discovered the exploit in the last hour be perma-banned as the people who are day 1 exploiters? People who knowingly got duped items from their buddies be perma-ban? Technically they are accomplishes and are guilty. People who didn't exploit, but told other people who to exploit.

    If Turbine just remove the NPC when they first heard about it, problem stopped right their and then. Broken policy. Turbine doesn't fix themselves, this will happen again. They game is barely hanging on as it is, and losing paying customers is the last thing they can afford when they are partly to blame.

  16. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uska View Post
    If they dont do something then they dont get another dime from me not a threat but if they allow such outrageous dirtbag cheating then I want no part was already extremely annoyed by the ED cheating and thought about leaving then but you got to draw a line somewhere. Sadly my sub lasts until Aug anyways but I find myself playing less and less now anyways due to the cheating in groups anymore and I really dont enjoy soloing most of the time its easy but boring.

    I dont know if the blatant cheating is enough to tick anyone else off as much as me but I am so mad I could spit.
    But why are you so angry?

    Nothing was taken from you.

    If anything, you had opportunity to get normally expensive things much cheaper.

    Are you mad you missed that opportunity?

    Maybe you weren't around, but when plat became the "standard" currency, everything somehow raised in price by 10 times.

    Oh, and then another time due to Turbine allowing a very easy plat farm in the Crystal Cove.

    Are you mad because they got caught, so now you can't do it?

    Are you mad because you perceive them as "winning more" now?

    You know you can't win or lose at this game and it isn't a race, right?

    And you know that there is still plenty of treasure out there for you as well, right? It's not a limited supply.

    I am curious, are you more or less mad about this than say war, the economy, disease, or famine?

    Take your time, I know it's a tough question....

  17. #277
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    You know, you are not incorrect, but you are wrong in application, you see, that only works for a growing game or a game that is on it's starting block, so 3 years ago, when it first went F2P, and was on the up and up, I would have agreed with you, at that time. setting examples would be the right thing to do, they had the clout and volume to ban with impunity.

    Wake up, it's been 4 years since DDO has seen any real growth, it's an older game, with glaring exploits (like the ED using at Heroic levels) and many game breaking and quest stopping bugs and issues. If they were going to send a message about exploiting their game, it should also involve anyone that used ED in heroic content, after all, a rule breaker is a rule breaker.

    How about a reality check, they can't at this point really go banning everyone for using any exploit, as they would have what? a handful of casuals left, if that, they may as well close their doors, and to say one exploit is worse then another, is also wrong, either you are or are not breaking the EULA contract.

    If you are going to ban exploiters, then ban them all, otherwise, you have already compromised yourself.

    Welcome to reality dude, it's not black and white, it's not cut and dried.
    This is the attitude of exploiters. They have really nothing to fear because its been a long time since Turbine put their foot down about something. If Turbine continues to not properly punish exploiters, the gaming community becomes more and more unhealthy. They come here to justify their actions, but than turn around complaining about how the game is. They continue to create problems but want these problems fixed. Turbine needs to quickly fix these bugs before they become well known and they need to take action against exploiters as needed. If these 2 things were accomplished in a timely manner I know me and others are more willing to stick with DDO and pay to play. More people are willing to come and play a game and stay with a game if exploiting is not tolerated.

  18. #278
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    You know, you are not incorrect, but you are wrong in application, you see, that only works for a growing game or a game that is on it's starting block, so 3 years ago, when it first went F2P, and was on the up and up, I would have agreed with you, at that time. setting examples would be the right thing to do, they had the clout and volume to ban with impunity.

    Wake up, it's been 4 years since DDO has seen any real growth, it's an older game, with glaring exploits (like the ED using at Heroic levels) and many game breaking and quest stopping bugs and issues. If they were going to send a message about exploiting their game, it should also involve anyone that used ED in heroic content, after all, a rule breaker is a rule breaker.

    How about a reality check, they can't at this point really go banning everyone for using any exploit, as they would have what? a handful of casuals left, if that, they may as well close their doors, and to say one exploit is worse then another, is also wrong, either you are or are not breaking the EULA contract.

    If you are going to ban exploiters, then ban them all, otherwise, you have already compromised yourself.

    Welcome to reality dude, it's not black and white, it's not cut and dried.
    Now who is passing their made up opinion off as fact here - something you pointed out in others, but are doing yourself. Only a handful of casuals left? LOL.

    I have been the one waging the argument of degree and not of absolutes for the entire time ive been on these forums. I even use the phrase "its not an argument of absolutes but an argument of degree" quite often. You think youre pointing out to me that its not all black and white, and then in the same post saying only a few casuals would be left if they banned the exploiters?

    The reality you think youve welcomed me to, is that they make more money by offloading the exploiters. If they do not they are basically holding the door open for anyone who wishes to exploit, and in doing so, demonstrate players do not need to pay to acquire, when they can dupe to acquire for free. All these paying customers you think they are keeping, begin exploiting too, because its been clearly demonstrated there is little to no penalty for doing so. This is not only what will happen in the future, it is what has been happening for years now, and why this situation exists in the first place.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  19. #279
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    More people are willing to come and play a game and stay with a game if exploiting is not tolerated.
    And your data to back this claim comes from where?

    Last night was a ghost-town. Not sure if people on time-out had anything to do with it or not. No intelligent person wants to play on an empty server (this is not a slight at Wayfinder, i swear).

    Besides, I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints, the sinners are much more fun.

  20. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by DunkleNymphe View Post
    I think you are contradicting yourself. As you said, the world is not black and white. I agree.
    And that leaves a lot of question marks about when someone is or is not breaking the EULA. First, a contract can only be broken if it is valid in the first place.
    Next comes the question of interpretation. Does the EULA cover the specific case and can it be a summarized under breaking the EULA?
    There's room for argumentation apparently, or we wouldn't be seeing hundreds of posts in different threads.

    I'm an attorney, by the way. I am stating everything as general questions, because though I have my own opionion about the legal situation, I am not going to share it here.
    You are forgetting this is a game where they make all the rules and can change them however they like on the fly.

    VIP used to mean everything included, then they rewrote the terms and added (except expansions).
    This change retoractively screwed every long time paying VIP who now has to purchase every expansion over and above their monthly long term contribution to the game.
    Turbine makes the rules... Dont like it.. too bad.. quit... Turbine doesn't care.. they are working to their agenda not ours..

    The other thing most people dont seem comprehend is that Turbine can ban anyone anytime for anything .. whenever they want, no reason required.
    There is no time limit to how far back they can go to find something to ban someone for.
    They could stumble across some old logs from 5 years ago that show someone had some long running exploit and ban them and anyone assoicated with them.

    They can ban you because they don't like your forum post.
    They dont have to justify or explain or defend anything, they can just make it happen .. bye bye.. you are gone...



    As to the exploits.. who cares...at the end of the day its just a game.

    wah.. economy is detroyed.. BS ecomomies rise and fall like the ocean tides.
    wah.. my stuff isnt worth as much anymore.. so what.. you had more stuff than you needed or looted stuff for greed trade instead of giving to someone who couuld use it?
    wah.. exploiters are selling stuff on the AH and devaluing stuff... Stuff that was over priced anyway.. so what...
    wah.. exploiters have broken the game.. how? . did you stop running quests, did you stop playing for fun? ... No.. game carries on.
    wah.. exploiters got more stuff than I do.. So what, doesnt stop me from running quests to earn my stuff.
    wah.. exploiters are selling stuff on the AS auction house... so what AS auction house is a Turbine mafia cashgrab.. 30% cut is criminal... Dont need AS to play the game.

    DDO is the exploiter,
    didnt get me back my GS weapon that became a throwing item in Abbott. .. bug reported.. no response.
    didnt get me back my ingredient bag with the shared bank lag bug.. bug reported.. no response
    didnt get back my missing mail when the servers went down for a week. got some BS about the mail not being a storage medium. stuff is still gone..
    currently have missing WOP weapons missing on my artificer after the retroactive loot update.. they are just gone... no response to bug report.
    didnt get my 40th end rewards on my main in CITW and FOT due to the FU on completions calculations.. said it was fixed.. still didnt get my rewards got garbage list..
    20th end rewards for CITW and FOT i ran on alts no longer hae +5 tome option .. only seeing +3 to +4 upgrade Skill tomes.. WT#$%... took Tales of Valor..
    didn't fix items that were broken without costing me something (epic crafted broken items), and yet retoractivly changed things that gave unintentional bonusses.
    Screwed my hard erned items into nerfdom.. Ornamental Daggers for instance.. Farmed those til my eyes bled and then the destroyer of loot dev screwed them...

    IF DDO actually gave an effort to keep me balanced to where I should be and fixed the issues as I came accross them and didnt screw with my precious earned loot I would probably care more about unintended advantages that people come across.
    Last edited by JOTMON; 10-10-2013 at 09:50 AM.
    Jotmon - Let's not forget why we play these games - to have fun - ~
    Guild: Degenerate Matter - 200 (Former Guilds: ChaosKnights, Big Damn Heroes, Shadowfiends, Order of the Drow, Unusual Suspects, Raided R)
    Argo-Jotmon(Completionist - before the Otto's/XP pots easymode), Jotmonheals(Clr17/Rog2/Mnk1-Epic Completionist), Whatthetruck.. and many many more alts..

    Update 24: Champions... "whew, it's ok, it's only a red name" .. sad day when trash spawn Champions and their one-shot ignore fort attacks instill more party fear than the Red named bosses.

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