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  1. #141
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    One tactic exploiters use to protect themselves is spread the bug get a lot of people using it, so its very risky for turbine to take action lol now the original exploiters have a large crowd to hide in...
    That's such a cynical way of looking at it.

    I like to think that some of those damn, dirty exploiters wanted everyone to have free stuff.

    It's impossible for me to see into the minds of such vile creatures though, so I'm merely guessing.
    Last edited by FlaviusMaximus; 10-08-2013 at 11:36 PM.

  2. #142
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    Default yeah, noob...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    LOL, noob.

    Allow me to humor you a moment, at 4 years old, your Daughter only understand that she does not like being punished and is powerless in the situation, thus she does not write on the walls. That exchange changes when she turns 18 and has a full time job, and the rent she is paying is what you depend on to make the mortgage payments, her life is full of options, and it is at that time if she opts to write on the walls, you are the one that needs to ask yourself if watching her walk out the door is worth fussing about crayon marks on the walls.

    Sure, you can stick to your guns, but at the risk of losing the house.

    Welcome to the real world, it's not as simple stupid as people try to pass it off to be.
    Noob huh, i have older kids too, and guess what, they have morals and they respect me enough so they wouldnt write on my walls. Not that your 18 yr olds writing on their parents walls makes any sense in the first place, who does that?

    Heres the problem you have, you dont understand responsibility. I dont run the risk of losing my house because i keep a job, many times ive kept jobs I HATED so i could raise my kids well and have a home.

    Yes, the real world does have a lot of simple stupid people (maybe some even think its acceptable to graffiti their own parents houses when they are adults).

    Yep, i stick to my gun, when parents dont they create permachildren like many we have in this game, simple and stupid.

  3. #143
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    Even worse I saw a guy in the harbor GIVING away devil scales FOR FREE! That guy deserves a lifetime ban from all MMOs. I mean giving it away? Stuff I had to grind Shroud dozens of times to get?

    Oh the humanity!
    where is the guy giving away true globes and draconic soul gems? If you find him please point me in the right direction!!!! .

  4. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01000010 View Post
    Joebob after an intense arguement with his xwife grabs a kitchen knife and stabs her 37 times.

    The kitchen knife wasnt designed for stabbing but alas it was sharp and effective.

    Who should be punished? Joebob the psycho or the chinese chef who designed the knives(and made them sharp thereby allowing them to be used in an unintended way).

    Morality is just so complex.

    Gimme a break.

    It seems to be for you. In addition to the inappropriate nature of your analogy it is also just plain false. You see, it wouldn't be an exploit to use a knife to cut. That is what it was intended to do. In fact, exploits relating to morality will fail completely for a reason already mentioned. A better analogy if you want something at least half right(far, far better than yours) would be finding a way out of a law through a technicality...Something that big business in the US clearly has no problem with. Note, if they have no problem doing it, it would be immoral of them to judge others for doing it, on a mildly ironic note.

  5. #145
    Community Member Deathdefy's Avatar
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    I did an Ethics course a long time ago during my first year of university. There were only 2 ethical theories I remember since they were the only 2 that I somewhat accepted as logical.

    Firstly:
    "Is it against the rules?" is not the question if we're looking purely from a moral perspective. Gandhi's whole shebang was to intentionally disobey unfair laws and peacefully cop the consequences.



    Utilitarianism:
    Assuming you're not amongst the first to dupe, given the existing mass of dupers, it's disingenuous to attribute almost any macro negative consequences about devaluing the economy or hurting innocents under utilitarianism since you couldn't change that.

    But, you get high personal utility.

    I think it's perfectly ethical for non-early-exploiters to dupe (under utilitarianism).

    Utilitarianism also subscribes to the idea that the greater and more widespread someone's public humiliation (assuming it's even mildly enjoyable to watch for some reason) the more ethical it is to broadcast said humiliation, so it's not really the best moral arbiter.



    Kantism:
    My undoubtledly academically scoffable summary of Kantism is that it boils down to the question of:
    "Would the system collapse if everybody did the [action in question]?"

    Somewhat. The Shard Exchange would in many ways. As would some challenges, raids and token farms.
    So I'd say duping is immoral under Kantism.


    I think I end up on the side of it being mildly unethical, probably due to personally subscribing to something close to kantism since it takes into account the wider consequences.
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  6. #146
    Community Member Gauthaag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodchuckslayer View Post
    It seems to be for you. In addition to the inappropriate nature of your analogy it is also just plain false. You see, it wouldn't be an exploit to use a knife to cut. That is what it was intended to do. In fact, exploits relating to morality will fail completely for a reason already mentioned. A better analogy if you want something at least half right(far, far better than yours) would be finding a way out of a law through a technicality...Something that big business in the US clearly has no problem with. Note, if they have no problem doing it, it would be immoral of them to judge others for doing it, on a mildly ironic note.
    its even more complex

    imagine someone have left gun on street. then psycho comes and shoot his victim.

    whos guilty ?
    psycho cause it was him who shoots? very likely
    the man who left dangerous weapon on steet? negligently but yeah, owning such tool bring some responsibility
    police, who doesnot responded to warning theres gun lying in time? yes, theyre paid for it
    people shouting in public: "hey folks, isaw something lying on street! maybe its gun! it can be used for killing people! ...now what?

  7. #147
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathdefy View Post
    Kantism:
    My undoubtledly academically scoffable summary of Kantism is that it boils down to the question of:
    "Would the system collapse if everybody did the [action in question]?"

    Somewhat. The Shard Exchange would in many ways. As would some challenges, raids and token farms.

    How do you conclude the Shard Exchange collapses? That makes no sense. The value of certain collectibles would go down. Is that inherently a bad thing? Generally consumers enjoy it when the costs of goods and services go down.

    No, it's just more of the same ego propping. "My precious digital loot I was hoarding got devalued because someone else sold it for less!" "Some noob is wearing/crafting gear he didn't EARN!" "Instead of getting some sucker to pay 500 shards for my loot, he was able to pay 50 shards for someone else's!"

    I doubt the folks who did much buying on the ASAH were farming those quests much, or they wouldn't have had any desire to buy the items from those quests.

  8. #148
    Community Member Gauthaag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    How do you conclude the Shard Exchange collapses? That makes no sense. The value of certain collectibles would go down. Is that inherently a bad thing? Generally consumers enjoy it when the costs of goods and services go down.

    No, it's just more of the same ego propping. "My precious digital loot I was hoarding got devalued because someone else sold it for less!" "Some noob is wearing/crafting gear he didn't EARN!" "Instead of getting some sucker to pay 500 shards for my loot, he was able to pay 50 shards for someone else's!"

    I doubt the folks who did much buying on the ASAH were farming those quests much, or they wouldn't have had any desire to buy the items from those quests.
    u cant say, sometimes its just pure hopelesness to use asah for obtaining something u cant get from endless farming. some things has really bad drop rates.
    i maybe would like to buy Kronzeks Cruelty (everyone must love the mechanic of rare drop from rare spawn ), as from couple years of farming i got only one while i got several sets of epic ingredients

  9. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    Even worse I saw a guy in the harbor GIVING away devil scales FOR FREE! That guy deserves a lifetime ban from all MMOs. I mean giving it away? Stuff I had to grind Shroud dozens of times to get?

    Oh the humanity!
    Whether LDS/FRDS were given for free or for 999.999*10^999 shards a piece wasn't my point. Putting stacks of 150 flawless scales up for sale at the (AS)AH, especially for 100 AS, is screaming at Turbine's face "Hey Tubine! Look at me! We've found this lovely exploit which empowers me to obtain ridiculous amounts of flawless scales without actually having to run quests! We found it, we spread it around, and we are really fond of using it". Hence, it is asking for a ban.

    If Turbine is partially to blame is irrelevant since in Turbine's case the crime bears the penance (like all this is doing any good to DDO). Exploiters were well aware of what they were doing and knew the risks. Banning them from the game isn't capital punishment; it's just a game. Though, I have to admit, it's interesting seeing how some people believe they can actually convince their fellow players that having droves of rampant cheaters messing around is for DDO's own good.

  10. #150
    Community Member Gauthaag's Avatar
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    I dont think its good for ddo, nor saying duping alone was good n right thing. But I personnaly have feeling lot of people are making that stand cause this affair is big slap into turbine face and feels like they had to get some for all those years of nonclear communications, stealth nerfing, making their precious loots obsolete and driving this game to pay2win model.

    I started posting on this forums as big fanboi, defending turbine as being part of game dev team (not turbines ofc) i know whats about develop stuff, but thru years i turned into bit bitter one poster, cause as being part of dev team myself i know whats about to stuff.

    this game simply shifted from fair one to "Nevermind the players are cheating, Dungeon Master lies"

  11. #151
    Community Member Gauthaag's Avatar
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    sorry for mistakes, but if it takes couple minutes and editing tool wont open, i wont bother

  12. #152
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    LOL, noob.

    Allow me to humor you a moment, at 4 years old, your Daughter only understand that she does not like being punished and is powerless in the situation, thus she does not write on the walls. That exchange changes when she turns 18 and has a full time job, and the rent she is paying is what you depend on to make the mortgage payments, her life is full of options, and it is at that time if she opts to write on the walls, you are the one that needs to ask yourself if watching her walk out the door is worth fussing about crayon marks on the walls.

    Sure, you can stick to your guns, but at the risk of losing the house.

    Welcome to the real world, it's not as simple stupid as people try to pass it off to be.
    The sheer level of justification after the fact is cute. You think the people who took advantage are the big spenders? Probability of that approaches 0%. The wallet elite simply buy what they want. You also must realize that many users have been refraining from paying into the system until Turbine starts doing things the right way. Offloading folks who refuse to adhere to the digital agreement they signed is a good first step in making the game environment a better situation for those who adhere to the agreement they signed.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  13. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    That's such a cynical way of looking at it.

    I like to think that some of those damn, dirty exploiters wanted everyone to have free stuff.

    It's impossible for me to see into the minds of such vile creatures though, so I'm merely guessing.
    well in my case I spread it cus i love sharing the fun but thats me

  14. #154
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    Default read a bit past that quote

    Quote Originally Posted by woodchuckslayer View Post
    It seems to be for you. In addition to the inappropriate nature of your analogy it is also just plain false. You see, it wouldn't be an exploit to use a knife to cut. That is what it was intended to do. In fact, exploits relating to morality will fail completely for a reason already mentioned. A better analogy if you want something at least half right(far, far better than yours) would be finding a way out of a law through a technicality...Something that big business in the US clearly has no problem with. Note, if they have no problem doing it, it would be immoral of them to judge others for doing it, on a mildly ironic note.
    At least one person understood the analogy perfectly, i imagine many did. I used the extreme example for a reason, and it was in response to a prior point someone attempted to make.

    The analogy was simple and accurate.

  15. #155
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Turbine wont increase the damage by banning those who took part. They will decrease it dramatically for this, and future exploits, by setting an example. They currently increase the damage by saying / doing nothing for longer periods of time.
    This. They don't even need to perma-ban hundreds of people... Just perma-ban 10 people on each server, and ANNOUNCE it. Give the names, and say "These people were perma-banned because they cheated. "

    That won't stop the hard-core cheaters, but it will stop a ton of people because they won't want to risk a perma-ban.
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  16. #156
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The sheer level of justification after the fact is cute. You think the people who took advantage are the big spenders? Probability of that approaches 0%.
    You know, I would take these kinds of ramblings far more seriously if not for the fact that last week you were accusing everyone of being pay2cheat players.

  17. #157
    Community Member Ashlayna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gauthaag View Post
    I dont think its good for ddo, nor saying duping alone was good n right thing. But I personnaly have feeling lot of people are making that stand cause this affair is big slap into turbine face and feels like they had to get some for all those years of nonclear communications, stealth nerfing, making their precious loots obsolete and driving this game to pay2win model.

    I started posting on this forums as big fanboi, defending turbine as being part of game dev team (not turbines ofc) i know whats about develop stuff, but thru years i turned into bit bitter one poster, cause as being part of dev team myself i know whats about to stuff.

    this game simply shifted from fair one to "Nevermind the players are cheating, Dungeon Master lies"
    ...er, sarcasm? They're mad about P2W, so they post a bunch of exploited loot on the ASAH, thusly forcing people that don't have the shards to buy points from Turbine to buy shards to get the items? Are you sure these are people you want in the game anyway?

  18. #158
    Community Member fco-karatekid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    ...Give the names...
    I didn't care up till this^ point. This is bad business - you don't hold up former, current, nor future customers for ridicule.

    Well, I would make an exception in your case; but other customers see that and will identify with the banned dufus, regardless of what that dufus did.

  19. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Its not convoluted by any of the above. Its easy enough to lock down the time rapid increase of quantity occurred, then look at all other activities that could have caused that and rule them out.



    The original event and its repetition is literally what they are looking for, and since they know what that is, the forensics here is easy.



    Nope, Im convinced policy is why people continue to take advantage, due to the high quantity and sheer level of conjecture and rules lawyering on the forums by players that its OK as well as the deafening silence by Turbine. Then folks try to convince the rest of us that the process of finding them out is highly convoluted when Turbine finally does act in an emergency fashion, which is not only highly suspect, but is untrue.



    Lack of willingness to communicate what they have and do not have, what the priorities are, what is WAI and what is not etc....do not translate directly to lack of competence. It translates to poor policy toward communicating with users. Combing their own data which they have back end access of will not be a daunting task at all. The only folks who will even have a hint as to what end this is happening are those who receive vacation notices due to taking part in something they agreed electronically not to do.
    Actually you don't know how they implemented items unless you've decompiled their code, or seen it prior to compilation. You also don't know the level, nor depth of their logging. You can infer, in some cases, they logical delete things (because some things they can bring back), and in others, they physically delete them (in many cases they cannot). No software system ever built keeps perfect records. There are choices made, corners cut, and frankly way to much data generated to keep a perfect history of life eternal unless you're the NSA. Building software that creates a vast and easily accessible historical record is not the least bit interesting to most feature developers, because it does nothing more than extend their project and is rarely supported by management unless they're talked into it. It only appeals to analytics junkies, and there are few of us in existence (who obviously aren't working for the government). The idea you know their code unless you cop to seeing it, because you've industry experience, is laughable. I've seen my competitors products internals in my industry, with way more resources than gaming companies would ever hope to have, and they're as different from mine and each other's software as a bird is from a snake. Just because something nominally provides the same features, doesn't mean anything with regards to the to underlying design premises and the code that sprung from those.

    I don't care what people think morally of the situation, so the point you're trying to make on user behavior after the fact isn't even the least bit interesting to me. People take advantage. Congrats, you've provided zero additional insight into something any half awake observer could see in an untold number of markets. Welcome to the real world, one where a portion of any system's users will always do whatever a system allows, regardless of the system. If a developer thinks some nominal agreement stops them, they should quit now and go serve burgers. The same applies if a developer doesn't care about how users are abusing your system. I build and design secure systems, and the idea I would ever trust someone on the other end to follow a policy is ludicrous beyond belief, and would get people laughed out of a shop.

    Your only option as a company who delivers softwares systems to customers is to back up your usage policy with actual secure code. You somehow doubt this? I suppose you think banks shouldn't bother locking their vaults, or even build a vault, I mean, so long as they comminucate to their customers not to steal and they will be punished. Cause obviously they are smarter than all their customers, PhDs in behavioral science to boot, and perfect implementors of punishment. Maybe you have a point, I mean, it wasn't like anyone tried to steal when we used to promptly hang cattle thieves, oh wait. Why don't we take the same general approach for secure comms? We'll just put faith in our swift and certain justice system.

    If their back end isn't so daunting how come their code is ****? How come this problem, a problem they already got burned by extensively, burned them again? You know why it burned them again, because their software development cycle is ****. Any process auditing firm worth paying would tell you that flat out. Doesn't matter what their QA policy is, if you get burned twice by the same major issue, and didn't have a test to catch it before go live, you're incompetent. The software development cycle is owned by developers, and if they're too weak to know how to implement a solid one, they're too weak to be trusted. Maybe their buggy as hell code is just a false flag operation and they've really got really well designed data structures and verbose logging that would put the romance languages to shame. Maybe the moon is made of cheese.

    How come their hotfix isn't really a fix at all, and now either it's broke elsewhere or it's still an issue? The launcher itself essentially says "we're broken, please don't try this" on the front page (granted their launcher code is bugged so I don't even see it because the scrollbar positions itself on a message halfway down everytime I start it). They've had two updates since the problem surface, now three, and where was this fix on the first two? You think they held it back because they wanted to create a honey trap for all the exploiters? Ingenious Turbine, and also 100% false.

    You're quite possibly the biggest software developer apologist I've ever read. Go read thedaily***. You think somehow mgmt is holding everyone down, and if only they'd get their act together the little developers could let their lights and talents shine. Pure apologencia. I don't care why other people are mad, I don't even care about the people who did dupe, or who didn't. I don't care about their behavior, their excuses, their feelings, or their justifications. I ain't got time for that, nor interest. People gonna do, what people gonna do, to the extent you let them. What I do care about is the mechanics of software development, and that's it. Call it a long held professional interest in forcing good practices on the software world I interact with and I'm more than happy to push/prod/force developers/companies into other lines of work because they build steaming piles of ****. I'm simply pointing out Turbine has a pitiful excuse for a software development cycle, policies be damned. That's a fact, and my professional diagnosis.

  20. #160
    Community Member Gauthaag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashlayna View Post
    ...er, sarcasm? They're mad about P2W, so they post a bunch of exploited loot on the ASAH, thusly forcing people that don't have the shards to buy points from Turbine to buy shards to get the items? Are you sure these are people you want in the game anyway?
    nope, but im sure T. should change their policy towards players

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