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  1. #121

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallout_Zero View Post
    Exploits happened before and spreads every hour it is not addressed. Turbine hasn't learnt from past mistakes and relies in hindsight after the fact, again? A simple global warning would have stopped most attempts at least to people who value their accounts.

    Customers are at fault but so is the vendor.
    Bollo cks, users were clearly warned in the TOS agreements. It was plainly clear this was an exploit and should not be done.

    Those people who decided to use it should not complain when they are caught and punished for it.

    Blaming Turbine for having a bug is just an excuse for your own poor judgement.

    I also notice that most of the accounts suggesting Turbine shouldnt ban anyone have only recently started posting (of course could be confirmation bias).

  2. #122
    Community Member ThePrincipal's Avatar
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    I'm positive Turbine appreciates and will implement the well researched directive of the OP.

  3. #123
    Community Member Singular's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirgog View Post
    Thought it was worth telling Turbine how EVE Online handles exploits, as they do it exceptionally well and Turbine could learn from this.


    First, they have a standing bounty. "Tell us a new exploit, we will give you one month free game time" (which in DDO would translate to 1000 TP or one month's VIP).

    Secondly, when an exploit is deemed worthy of attention, they make a public announcement (similar to a launcher announcement) to the following effect:

    "Notice of Exploit - There is an exploit involving bags and item duplication. This is a final warning that players using this exploit will receive a permanent account ban". Note there is not exact details on how to replicate the exploit, although there may be enough hints to help someone figure it out.

    Thirdly, they enforce that warning. Exploit after the announcement, and you are banhammered. Those that exploited before the announcement are taken on a case-by-case basis - receiving anything from a warning up to a permaban depending upon a GM's best judgement.

    Finally, they then investigate trades related to the exploit made by accounts that used the exploit (both before and after the announcement) and revert them.



    It is amazing how much more effective this is than the apparent Turbine policy of "Ignore it and hope it goes away." That policy didn't work for the 2007 mana pot duplication, it didn't work for red/blue flagging, it didn't work for trading bound ingredients, and it certainly did not work for the great 2013 duping spree.
    Well said - excellent advice. Openness is clearly the best way to handle exploits. Keeping everything hidden is sketchy, silly, and immature.

  4. #124
    Community Member zDragonz's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=sirgog;5125202]Thought it was worth telling Turbine how EVE Online handles exploits, as they do it exceptionally well and Turbine could learn from this.


    First, they have a standing bounty. "Tell us a new exploit, we will give you one month free game time" (which in DDO would translate to 1000 TP or one month's VIP). [/QUOTE

    This is key: If anyone ever wants to let you in on an exploit they assume they trust you. But you must NOT do it also. But you must be a Detective instead and listen in on it and then report it.
    I doubt there is that many folks out there that want to turn in their friends! This is a ploy to catch those that did it anyway, and the few who decided to become police on their own friends will be found out anyway. This is not real world.

    Just my two cents.
    Last edited by zDragonz; 10-08-2013 at 08:31 PM. Reason: I borked this up, but you get the idea.

  5. #125

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    Sirgog: do you actually think that they have the manpower to execute a policy like what you have suggested? The feeling I get is that DDO is run on a skeleton crew, at best. Likely they have pulled in the community team and the treasure chest "Tinklemeister" to help them review accounts in this most recent event.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheOnly_LightInDark View Post
    Bollo cks, users were clearly warned in the TOS agreements. It was plainly clear this was an exploit and should not be done.

    Those people who decided to use it should not complain when they are caught and punished for it.

    Blaming Turbine for having a bug is just an excuse for your own poor judgement.

    I also notice that most of the accounts suggesting Turbine shouldnt ban anyone have only recently started posting (of course could be confirmation bias).
    Notice I said fault is not entirely on Turbine. Something was broken and Turbine decided not to do anything about it until now.

    Also a lot of people who played longer than you have didn't like the forum account changes.

  7. #127
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    The longer I look at it, the more I'm convinced Turbine needs to permaban each and every one of the dupers who tried to sell the duped items. It's not like we're asking for the government to send the task collectors to the cheaters' homes, or have them fired from their jobs, or their civil rights withdrawn. It's just a game, so it's just a ban from a game - a ban to players who knowingly and willingly chose to risk a ban. Seriously, what is there to argue about this?

  8. #128
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fredericko View Post
    The longer I look at it, the more I'm convinced Turbine needs to permaban each and every one of the dupers who tried to sell the duped items. It's not like we're asking for the government to send the task collectors to the cheaters' homes, or have them fired from their jobs, or their civil rights withdrawn. It's just a game, so it's just a ban from a game - a ban to players who knowingly and willingly chose to risk a ban. Seriously, what is there to argue about this?
    LOL. I don't think you realize how viral the bug was, but think about what you are asking, you are asking Turbine to alienate their paying customers, for a mistake that Turbine themselves made.

  9. #129
    Community Member Ashlayna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Furbitor View Post
    Yes , yes quite right. We all agreed, when we login.. etc. Nice lawyer-ing. However, since 2006 this game has had a few changes.

    Tell me mr lawyer.... sigh, I covered this **** years ago in bugs vs. exploits.... Tell me, with every update hotfix patch.. ANY change made to the Scripts and verisons of this game, Are you, mr. lawyer, Know extensively before you play? I mean c'mon, are you a pre-cog, lying in a pool and springing to your forehead the vision of the next exploited bug?

    Of course not. Your not an oracle. I am not either.

    with every version released and downloaded by gamers is potential for bugs to appear. So my super question for you, is when do you "know" its a bug and not a new feature of the game? Or a change in gameplay that is WAI?

    The answer is you don't until someone brave enough to ask speaks up and risks getting banned, does confirmation from a dev turns a feature into a bug.

    Just realize both of us are losers, and this won't change.
    So wait, what you're saying is "Yes, everyone knows that being able to dupe items is a bug, but it can't be an exploit because it's in game"? You see, I'm not a loser. I knew about the "dupe bug" and didn't participate in it. I knew, w/out anyone having to tell me that this is not WAI, and that participating in it would indeed be an exploit. I didn't need Turbine to tell me that, I engaged my brain. It's not too much of a stretch to expect that anyone that can read well enough to play an MMO should be able to realize that duping items isn't WAI, and shouldn't be done, just because it can be done. Nobody should have to be standing over every player's shoulder telling them "No Johnny, this isn't working as intended and you shouldn't do it". However, every post I read like this one tells me that others feel as if they should be able to do whatever they want, exploit or no, if the game allows it, even if they know it's broken. Newsflash; that's not the way it works. The people that posted duped items to the ASAH knew exactly what they were doing. They knew it was wrong, but figured "exploit early and often". Now they should suffer the consequences. You disagree, I get it, you think it's perfectly acceptable to exploit the game because the bug got in. We're never going to agree, because I know better. It's not lawyering to state that doing so is violating the ToS, nor is it lawyering to point out that we all agreed to not do it when we created our accounts. It's simply the truth.

  10. #130
    Community Member Ashlayna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    LOL. I don't think you realize how viral the bug was, but think about what you are asking, you are asking Turbine to alienate their paying customers, for a mistake that Turbine themselves made.
    I'm a paying customer that didn't participate in the exploit, they won't be alienating me by sending a strong message to the exploiters, they'll be sending the message that they are indeed going to enforce their own rules, and that doesn't alienate me in the least.

  11. #131
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    If youre bright enough(doesn't take a genius) to perform an exploit over and over again, you are also bright enough to know youre exploiting, even if you lack the moral compass to know its wrong you know exploiting is against the rules and should expect repercussions when caught.

    Even my 4 yr old knows better than to do many things that are not allowed despite being fun/rewarding, like drawing on her walls with crayons, I think she learned that at 2 yrs old. Cant the players in this game attempt to be as responsible as a 2 yr old at least? Cause and effect, grow up. Take it like a man (an adult).

  12. #132
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01000010 View Post
    Take it like a man (an adult).
    LOL.. Take what exactly?

  13. #133
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    the repercussions of your actions.

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    LOL. I don't think you realize how viral the bug was, but think about what you are asking, you are asking Turbine to alienate their paying customers, for a mistake that Turbine themselves made.
    I am asking Turbine to ban players who consciously and well aware of the possible outcome chose to abuse an exploit to take an unfair advantage over other players by selling duplicated items. Note I said "selling". But to answer your post, yes, I am well aware of the long-running mantra of "exploit early, exploit often" some of the most seasoned players from Sarlona told me a while ago. I may be sad to see some of them go, but frankly, whoever got involved in selling flawless dragon scales one shard apiece was asking for a ban.

  15. #135
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01000010 View Post
    the repercussions of your actions.
    LOL, noob.

    Allow me to humor you a moment, at 4 years old, your Daughter only understand that she does not like being punished and is powerless in the situation, thus she does not write on the walls. That exchange changes when she turns 18 and has a full time job, and the rent she is paying is what you depend on to make the mortgage payments, her life is full of options, and it is at that time if she opts to write on the walls, you are the one that needs to ask yourself if watching her walk out the door is worth fussing about crayon marks on the walls.

    Sure, you can stick to your guns, but at the risk of losing the house.

    Welcome to the real world, it's not as simple stupid as people try to pass it off to be.
    Last edited by Ungood; 10-08-2013 at 10:31 PM.

  16. #136
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fredericko View Post
    I am asking Turbine to ban players who consciously and well aware of the possible outcome chose to abuse an exploit to take an unfair advantage over other players by selling duplicated items. Note I said "selling". But to answer your post, yes, I am well aware of the long-running mantra of "exploit early, exploit often" some of the most seasoned players from Sarlona told me a while ago. I may be sad to see some of them go, but frankly, whoever got involved in selling flawless dragon scales one shard apiece was asking for a ban.
    LOL, ok yah, some of that stuff was just asking to get banned.

  17. #137
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by myliftkk_v2 View Post
    Items would almost certainly be nothing more than a instance id, type, and a quantity. Addition isn't anything more than a quantity tic at that point. Decent bet that that tic upwards isn't even logged if it's a race condition or a bad isolation read & update. If they keep a state snapshot everytime a row is changed, they'd still need to find every diff that can't be explain by other system events. Betting they keep every item record state change snapshot, it's technically possible, but I doubt it. Back of the envelope math isn't convincing. Maybe they have the best log files in the world, but I bet on the pervasiveness of their bugs they do not.
    Its not convoluted by any of the above. Its easy enough to lock down the time rapid increase of quantity occurred, then look at all other activities that could have caused that and rule them out.

    Quote Originally Posted by myliftkk_v2 View Post
    The originating event isn't the scope of the issue. It's the chaining cascade of events that follow, all of which are built on a corrupt base and which in some instances corrupt, and some not. Those events involve other items, other consumables, other transactions. We already know there's weeks of chained events that wormed their way throughout the playerbase.
    The original event and its repetition is literally what they are looking for, and since they know what that is, the forensics here is easy.

    Quote Originally Posted by myliftkk_v2 View Post
    Ultimately, whether it's policy or incompetence, the end result is the same. You're convinced it's policy and if they just flicked the policy switch, all would be ok.
    Nope, Im convinced policy is why people continue to take advantage, due to the high quantity and sheer level of conjecture and rules lawyering on the forums by players that its OK as well as the deafening silence by Turbine. Then folks try to convince the rest of us that the process of finding them out is highly convoluted when Turbine finally does act in an emergency fashion, which is not only highly suspect, but is untrue.

    Quote Originally Posted by myliftkk_v2 View Post
    Orgazination development experience and the symptoms Turbine exhibits leads me to believe whatever bad policies they have, development incompetence plays a serious role there. Great development shops, even with poor leadership, have stable and robust systems. Great leadership with poor development staff, have happy developers and unstable software. Poor leadership and poor development...
    Lack of willingness to communicate what they have and do not have, what the priorities are, what is WAI and what is not etc....do not translate directly to lack of competence. It translates to poor policy toward communicating with users. Combing their own data which they have back end access of will not be a daunting task at all. The only folks who will even have a hint as to what end this is happening are those who receive vacation notices due to taking part in something they agreed electronically not to do.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  18. #138
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    One tactic exploiters use to protect themselves is spread the bug get a lot of people using it, so its very risky for turbine to take action lol now the original exploiters have a large crowd to hide in, and even if they do get punished the punishments will be less because they dont want to perma ban a sizable % of the player base as face it, its not the largest out there.

    Seem this happen before, in ddo.

    This is why they have to act fast and decisively other wise it gets out of control and a slap on the wrist is all they dare to really do.

  19. #139
    Community Member Furbitor's Avatar
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    QUOTE=Ashlayna So wait, what you're saying is "Yes, everyone knows that being able to dupe items is a bug, but it can't be an exploit because it's in game"?

    um, no I didn't. Your confused.

    You see, I'm not a loser.

    um yeah... but everyone else is too.

    I knew about the "dupe bug" and didn't participate in it.

    Pre-cog? Will little spider-mites peer into your eyes? Or did someone tell you about the bug, so, you can do what you want?

    I knew, w/out anyone having to tell me that this is not WAI, and that participating in it would indeed be an exploit. I didn't need Turbine to tell me that, I engaged my brain.

    Whups! My bad. Sorry. You knew about the exploit by osmosis... you really should get a job at a casino. your mental capacity is astounding.

    Nobody should have to be standing over every player's shoulder telling them "No Johnny, this isn't working as intended and you shouldn't do it". . Newsflash; that's not the way it works. The people that posted duped items to the ASAH knew exactly what they were doing. They knew it was wrong, but figured "exploit early and often".

    Yes. Turbine probably won't bother looking into whodunnit. Players can police themselves, or should, at any rate. Yeah, it doesn't take a mental giant to see this latest (exploit) happening, but what about the ones you can't see... IE: the mabar event where mass bannings hit thousands of gamers because the midnight drinks gave too much motes. Howinheck does the avg joe game what the "proper drop rate for motes" supposed to be? Sorry dude we arent amazing exploit detector like yourself.. but banning was widespread, and the GM's acknowledge the mistake.

    Just because this latest (exploit) is easy to identify, Doesn't mean that you can paint every exploit with the same brush.


    Now they should suffer the consequences.

    Abuses occurred. and yup I agree.

    You disagree, I get it, you think it's perfectly acceptable to exploit the game because the bug got in.

    Um, no. I think bugs should be fixed. working with gamers instead of punishment. if no bug exisits, then the game becomes Way as Intended.

    We're never going to agree, because I know better. It's simply the truth. QUOTE

    Golly, I think you may be right. But then your soo smart and brainy you probably knew what I was going to say.

  20. #140
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fredericko View Post
    I may be sad to see some of them go, but frankly, whoever got involved in selling flawless dragon scales one shard apiece was asking for a ban.

    Even worse I saw a guy in the harbor GIVING away devil scales FOR FREE! That guy deserves a lifetime ban from all MMOs. I mean giving it away? Stuff I had to grind Shroud dozens of times to get?

    Oh the humanity!

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