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  1. #1
    The Hatchery sirgog's Avatar
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    Default A lesson for Turbine - how to handle exploits in MMOs

    Thought it was worth telling Turbine how EVE Online handles exploits, as they do it exceptionally well and Turbine could learn from this.


    First, they have a standing bounty. "Tell us a new exploit, we will give you one month free game time" (which in DDO would translate to 1000 TP or one month's VIP).

    Secondly, when an exploit is deemed worthy of attention, they make a public announcement (similar to a launcher announcement) to the following effect:

    "Notice of Exploit - There is an exploit involving bags and item duplication. This is a final warning that players using this exploit will receive a permanent account ban". Note there is not exact details on how to replicate the exploit, although there may be enough hints to help someone figure it out.

    Thirdly, they enforce that warning. Exploit after the announcement, and you are banhammered. Those that exploited before the announcement are taken on a case-by-case basis - receiving anything from a warning up to a permaban depending upon a GM's best judgement.

    Finally, they then investigate trades related to the exploit made by accounts that used the exploit (both before and after the announcement) and revert them.



    It is amazing how much more effective this is than the apparent Turbine policy of "Ignore it and hope it goes away." That policy didn't work for the 2007 mana pot duplication, it didn't work for red/blue flagging, it didn't work for trading bound ingredients, and it certainly did not work for the great 2013 duping spree.
    I don't have a zerging problem.

    I'm zerging. That's YOUR problem.

  2. #2
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    Would be a perfect way to handle it...
    but...

    too much work involved by Turbine, better to ignore it. Less people to pay.

  3. #3
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    Doesn't EVE have a huge advantage over Turbine when it comes to banning masses of people over something like this? Didn't China back Eve's in-game currency as the way of the future and heavily invest into the game? Because of this, EVE is sort of an anomaly instead of posterchild when it comes to things that can disrupt the economy of a game. They can play hardball since one of the largest world economies is backing them as an alternative digital economy.

  4. #4
    The Hatchery sirgog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oradafu View Post
    Doesn't EVE have a huge advantage over Turbine when it comes to banning masses of people over something like this? Didn't China back Eve's in-game currency as the way of the future and heavily invest into the game? Because of this, EVE is sort of an anomaly instead of posterchild when it comes to things that can disrupt the economy of a game. They can play hardball since one of the largest world economies is backing them as an alternative digital economy.
    I do not know where you heard THAT from. One of the most bizarre theories I have heard in a while.
    I don't have a zerging problem.

    I'm zerging. That's YOUR problem.

  5. #5
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    Default yup

    This is getting a bit pathetic.

    I consider the twist exploit as even more detrimental to the game than the more recent/less abused dupe one, so in my opinion theyve shown an enormous lack of respect for their own game and honest players by not taking appropriate actions, and its been going on a long time.

    Im gonna have to try eve online, just the proactive attitude to keep their game legitimate says to me they have the intention of making a great product rather than just short term gains(like the money made from astal shard sales to buy cheaper duped items or tp bought and spent by all the twist exploiters that shouldve been banned).

    Anyone testing ESO? That seems promising.

  6. #6
    Community Member Phaeton_Seraph's Avatar
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    Yeah, I think we should just keep publicising these exploits so that anyone who can type "google" can know what to search for. Thanks for the community service!

  7. #7
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    To be fair, though, EVE's active playerbase is perhaps half that of DDO. The database is much simpler, its just one server and, data-wise, the structure is minimalistic (ie the amount of information each item/character/etc. requires is vanishingly small compared to DDO). Itemization is much simpler than in DDO - you don't have the level of interaction with items you do in DDO, which opens up possibilities for exploits. They also keep much more records on their trading economy, which makes auditing it simpler. DDO couldn't do all those things, with the engine that its built on - nor could any similar MMO, for that matter.

    Its a bit like going to Chicago or Detroit, and saying they should just run their police department like they do in Mayberry, because Mayberry doesn't have any problems with crime and corruption.

  8. #8
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    Default hmm

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaeton_Seraph View Post
    Yeah, I think we should just keep publicising these exploits so that anyone who can type "google" can know what to search for. Thanks for the community service!

    As opposed to the ignoring them until they become so rampant and obvious that any new player will notice them by mid lvl unless they are completely unaware?

    Yeah, its worked great so far...

    Punish exploiters and people will stop exploiting. If robbing a bank for a million dollars was punished only by closing the bank why would anyone stop robbing banks?

  9. #9
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    Default hmm again

    I suppose i should add that not telling anyone the addresses of any banks isnt an intelligent response.

  10. #10
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    So instead of spending money on programmers to fix the problem, you guys think they should continue spending money 'investigating' and preventing 'exploits' by creating a climate of fear. Interesting that a communist police state has already been mentioned on this thread. If the rules are broken, Turbine (and the fascists over at EVE for that matter) should fix them, rather than punishing people for their own incompetent programming. It should not be possible to cheat in a computer game. If something is not WAI or is working poorly, the programmers should fix it, and if they can't they should admit their boobishness and find someone who can. Blaming and banning the players instead of fixing things is pretty weak. The bounty idea is great, but then it needs to be followed up with fixing the problem, not a tacit admission of uselessness and dire warnings against taking advantage of said uselessness.

  11. #11
    Community Member Systern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirgog View Post
    Thought it was worth telling Turbine how EVE Online handles exploits, as they do it exceptionally well and Turbine could learn from this.


    First, they have a standing bounty. "Tell us a new exploit, we will give you one month free game time" (which in DDO would translate to 1000 TP or one month's VIP).

    Secondly, when an exploit is deemed worthy of attention, they make a public announcement (similar to a launcher announcement) to the following effect:

    "Notice of Exploit - There is an exploit involving bags and item duplication. This is a final warning that players using this exploit will receive a permanent account ban". Note there is not exact details on how to replicate the exploit, although there may be enough hints to help someone figure it out.

    Thirdly, they enforce that warning. Exploit after the announcement, and you are banhammered. Those that exploited before the announcement are taken on a case-by-case basis - receiving anything from a warning up to a permaban depending upon a GM's best judgement.

    Finally, they then investigate trades related to the exploit made by accounts that used the exploit (both before and after the announcement) and revert them.



    It is amazing how much more effective this is than the apparent Turbine policy of "Ignore it and hope it goes away." That policy didn't work for the 2007 mana pot duplication, it didn't work for red/blue flagging, it didn't work for trading bound ingredients, and it certainly did not work for the great 2013 duping spree.
    So extending your hard-line, no-nonsense approach of permabanning everyone that takes advantage of good bugs.

    Turbine should also fire all developers who don't fix the bad bugs.

    An eye-for-an-eye just leaves the world blind.

    No one left to play the game, and no one left to make it.

  12. #12
    Community Member Ryiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    To be fair, though, EVE's active playerbase is perhaps half that of DDO. The database is much simpler, its just one server and, data-wise, the structure is minimalistic (ie the amount of information each item/character/etc. requires is vanishingly small compared to DDO).
    I've researched into EVE's accomplishments in the past and while it may look like one single server, that's only the tip of the iceberg. In reality their server structure is made up of numerous server nodes which are each high-end servers in their own rights. It would be like taking every server making up DDO and combining them all under a single name.
    Last edited by Ryiah; 10-08-2013 at 01:51 AM.
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  13. #13
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    Default scenario

    Joebob after an intense arguement with his xwife grabs a kitchen knife and stabs her 37 times.

    The kitchen knife wasnt designed for stabbing but alas it was sharp and effective.

    Who should be punished? Joebob the psycho or the chinese chef who designed the knives(and made them sharp thereby allowing them to be used in an unintended way).

    Morality is just so complex.

    Gimme a break.
    Last edited by 01000010; 10-08-2013 at 01:48 AM.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirgog View Post
    First, they have a standing bounty. "Tell us a new exploit, we will give you one month free game time" (which in DDO would translate to 1000 TP or one month's VIP).
    They sort of have this already..just not publicly announced.

    You remember the lightning mote exploit(artificer spell) which could render any raid boss in the game helpless?

    Back then i informed a dev here on the forums about it after i have seen it used in a raid.

    They wrote to me no one has told them about this exploit...then i got a turbine point code and they hotfixed this exploit right on the next day.

    Of course this was some time ago..things have changed probably.
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  15. #15
    Community Member Wanesa's Avatar
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    /ibtl

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  16. #16
    Community Member relenttless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaelaros View Post
    So instead of spending money on programmers to fix the problem, you guys think they should continue spending money 'investigating' and preventing 'exploits' by creating a climate of fear. Interesting that a communist police state has already been mentioned on this thread. If the rules are broken, Turbine (and the fascists over at EVE for that matter) should fix them, rather than punishing people for their own incompetent programming. It should not be possible to cheat in a computer game. If something is not WAI or is working poorly, the programmers should fix it, and if they can't they should admit their boobishness and find someone who can. Blaming and banning the players instead of fixing things is pretty weak. The bounty idea is great, but then it needs to be followed up with fixing the problem, not a tacit admission of uselessness and dire warnings against taking advantage of said uselessness.
    which world do you live in?.....as opposed to the real one?

    by the way, you don't have to live in a "communist" or "fascist" country to be subjected to police and state control, but then, I rather doubt you have any real idea of the meaning of either word.
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  17. #17
    The Hatchery sirgog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    To be fair, though, EVE's active playerbase is perhaps half that of DDO. The database is much simpler, its just one server and, data-wise, the structure is minimalistic (ie the amount of information each item/character/etc. requires is vanishingly small compared to DDO). Itemization is much simpler than in DDO - you don't have the level of interaction with items you do in DDO, which opens up possibilities for exploits. They also keep much more records on their trading economy, which makes auditing it simpler. DDO couldn't do all those things, with the engine that its built on - nor could any similar MMO, for that matter.

    Its a bit like going to Chicago or Detroit, and saying they should just run their police department like they do in Mayberry, because Mayberry doesn't have any problems with crime and corruption.
    EVE has 19700 characters online right now, a lot more than the DDO servers would have combined. During US peak it has ~35000 weeknights and ~48000 weekends (that's simultaneous logins).

    There's also a lot more items created and destroyed than in DDO.
    I don't have a zerging problem.

    I'm zerging. That's YOUR problem.

  18. #18
    Community Member NapStack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirgog View Post
    A lesson for Turbine - how to handle exploits in MMOs...
    Cool. Thanks for the lesson, papa sirgog.

  19. #19
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    Default How to handle exploits and bans

    First of all, every toon shud be saved every 2 weeks, keeping multiple toon data, they would be deleted/overwritten every 2 or 3 months to not use up much space for the servers. This would allow toon-roll-back for admins in case of exploiters, also allowing players to be redeemed and not perma-banned. Even if banned, too long bans will create empty servers, so make bans 1 day up to 30 days.
    Also introduce server bans. Aka you get banned from the server(s) you exploited and or cheated on. This way other servers can still enjoy you, while you have an ample of time to think about what is it like to play Korthos again with a first lifer adventurer build toon.

    That said, think about this ban/punishment system, way better than the biased "oh well this is less exploit than the other so punish them appropriately" that doesnt work. Also rich (rich- in- real- life) players pretty often buy pets then sell them on shard or AH for good amount of cash. This pay- to- win mechanic already created a huge leap towards degrading player morale and getting people to exploit.

    It is time for Turbine to change its policy. Where raid-wipes occured due to servers unable to handle festival event instances and many raid instances at once they never took/take responsiliblity just say "sh*t happens" so it would be a good time to think about all this: If players can mess with you and so does the corporation mess with them, probably it would be a good time to start solving issues with our brains with much clever solutions than that are implemented currently.

    I have spoken.

  20. #20
    Community Member AtomicMew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01000010 View Post
    Joebob after an intense arguement with his xwife grabs a kitchen knife and stabs her 37 times.

    The kitchen knife wasnt designed for stabbing but alas it was sharp and effective.

    Who should be punished? Joebob the psycho or the chinese chef who designed the knives(and made them sharp thereby allowing them to be used in an unintended way).

    Morality is just so complex.

    Gimme a break.
    Post #13: morality mentioned in relation to video games. Duping items compared to murdering your wife.


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