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  1. #101
    Community Member tammyaline's Avatar
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    I definitely think they will lose more money from people who are perma-banned than from people leaving in a tissy fit over a game. Yes without a doubt.

    Personally I have spent thousands on this game over the last 4 years, as has my husband who has been playing for 7. If we got banned, we would move on to Neverwinter or use it as an excuse to get a life. We stick around because of the new quests and raids and as we have high level characters we want to be at the top.

    If Turbine told us that you were taking away his completionist and 15 other characters all with at least 4 lives on them and then all of mine that are similarly leveled (minus the completionist) to have to start from scratch Id say they were crazy and why would they push us into another game.

    DDO has to compete with many other games right now and they need everyone they can get. These exploiters are the same people that pay big money to see things continue. They are in part why Turbine continues to make quests and expansions.

    I'm sure Turbine will sit down and say "ok XXXX people took part in this exploit. If we perma ban them ... How much would we lose? ... how about for one month? ... or 2 weeks? ... or one week?" They are a business and as upset as everyone is, try and look at it as a business. You better believe Turbine will. They will have their analysts working on it to weigh out the risks and then pick the least risk to them.

    In no way is the least risk a perma ban. You don't want to be turning away paying customers... what kind of business would they be? Not a very smart one , that's for sure.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaelaros View Post
    Players being banned for exploits is wrong.
    So, people who are doing something that is obviously getting around the way the system was supposed to work is fine? That's like saying that someone who is able to shoplift because they have worked out that the security cameras don't cover the section of the store they are stealing from aren't doing anything wrong.

    Yes, some exploits are not something you would automatically realise is due to a bug, but this is definitely not one of them. This is a blatant and obvious decision by people to cheat in a manner that devalues items that other people have put significant amounts of work into getting.

    Your commentary on "wasting resources" shows a distinct lack of understanding of how a team for a software product works. The investigation is likely being done by the administration team, including GMs and server & database management, whilst the bug fixing requires programmers and likely has a full-time set of devs on it. This concept that gets regularly thrown out of "oh, why can't the people doing X do Y instead" utterly ignores the fact that the making of a software product involves a large number of specialists for different areas, most of whom cannot readily cover other areas, and even when they can will often require a significant introduction period.

    As for the idea that "it working this way means they intended it to", that is pure idiocy. If I gave you hundreds of thousands of lines of instructions and told you that there was an error somewhere in it and you needed to fix it, I'm sure you couldn't do so overnight. Similarly, there is no commercial software product in existance that doesn't have bugs in it, as at the scale of commercial software it is impossibly hard to be sure that every possible loophole is accounted for. There's a reason that big corporations such as MS, Google & FB offer incentives for reporting bugs in their products.


    To put things very simply. The full description for an exploit is "doing something to exploit a bug in the game". There are some bugs which might not be obvious - an alternate way to do a quest isn't necessarily a bug for example - but others, like this, are very obviously bugs and not working as intended.

    Everyone on here is, presumably, capable of making rational decisions and deductions. Choosing to utilise this bug to amass a fortune in-game is therefore a conscious decision to exploit, as something that allows you to duplicate items in your possession with no effort is very obviously a bug in the game.

    Exploiting has always been, and continues to be, something that is frowned on heavily and is actionable. If people choose to use an exploit, then they should be accepting the fact that there is a risk that they might have action taken against them for doing so. Comparing it to a police state is sheer idiocy - it is comparable to suggesting the same about any real world nation on the basis that law enforcement officials are empowered to impose sanctions on those who break the law.

  3. #103
    Community Member Hawkwier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tammyaline View Post
    The biggest offenders will be the biggest real money spenders in the game. Bite the hand that feeds you ... I don't think so.

    Two week ban, maybe three to make them miss out on the +5 Mabar tomes, sure, but more than that? Wouldn't that be counter productive for Turbine? I think about even just the people I know on Thelanis that went ahead with this exploit and they would be losing too much money to Perma ban them all.

    Since Turbine knew about this exploit and are just getting around to doing something about it now makes me think there was an agenda or something to the timing of the whole thing. Time will tell.
    So what are we accepting here - punishment is determined upon the wallet size of the miscreant? Sounds a bit like bribing the judge to me! LOL!

    Seriously though - if thats an issue, let 'em keep their accounts, but delete all their precious toons and items - that way they can plough more millions in to earn 'em back

    A few days or weeks ban is just unacceptable for this behaviour.

  4. #104
    Community Member Mephisto-Helix's Avatar
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    I've been keenly following all the arguments and counter-arguments and something tweaked a cord when reading a few of the vociferous, drama-queen-ban-them-all types ......... I really hope you have not one shred of pirated software in your possession. All those mp3's, games, etc etc etc, best be legal or you're a bit of a hypocrite naai.


    Just inserting something for the lol's ..... carry on with the thread

  5. #105
    Community Member tammyaline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkwier View Post
    So what are we accepting here - punishment is determined upon the wallet size of the miscreant? Sounds a bit like bribing the judge to me! LOL!

    Seriously though - if thats an issue, let 'em keep their accounts, but delete all their precious toons and items - that way they can plough more millions in to earn 'em back

    A few days or weeks ban is just unacceptable for this behaviour.

    UMMM sadly that's life ... haven't you figured out that people with the money tend to win in business and life?

    As I said in my previous post. They wouldn't get many of those people back to start over unless they had a 2nd account to go to. My husband's completionist was made pre bravery bonuses, pre xp tomes ... though I can not say I put as much time into one character, I have many characters with a lot of lives and I just couldn't be bothered to start again. To run the same quests that we have thousands of times? If I have to start characters over it would be much more fun to go to a new game with new quests or better yet spend it in the real world.

    Yet again your post is emotional and not looking at it from a business perspective. Who knows how this will work out but it will be in the best interest of one party. It's not the exploiters or the people who didn't exploit ... it's all about Turbine and unless you are a Risk Analyst for them during your day job, I don't think you opinions are very realistic in business.

  6. #106
    Community Member tammyaline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mephisto-Helix View Post
    I've been keenly following all the arguments and counter-arguments and something tweaked a cord when reading a few of the vociferous, drama-queen-ban-them-all types ......... I really hope you have not one shred of pirated software in your possession. All those mp3's, games, etc etc etc, best be legal or you're a bit of a hypocrite naai.


    Just inserting something for the lol's ..... carry on with the thread
    Yes I LOL'd ... thank you for that

  7. #107
    Community Member Henky's Avatar
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    Shard exchange is off, no problem. But why the hell is the NPC that allows the exploit still available? Disable it! But maybe its too late for that.
    Thelanis - Officer of Reinos Olvidados: Henkyh, Neghi, Konokka, Kufei, Bartolomew, Rovinh, Artinata

  8. #108
    Community Member tammyaline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Henky View Post
    Shard exchange is off, no problem. But why the hell is the NPC that allows the exploit still available? Disable it! But maybe its too late for that.
    Because the shards are directly linked to Turbines bottom line. My guess. The other ... well its tough to take away access to people's own gear. Just my opinion on that one.

  9. #109
    Community Member Hawkwier's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Eh, nope!

    Quote Originally Posted by tammyaline View Post
    UMMM sadly that's life ... haven't you figured out that people with the money tend to win in business and life?

    As I said in my previous post. They wouldn't get many of those people back to start over unless they had a 2nd account to go to. My husband's completionist was made pre bravery bonuses, pre xp tomes ... though I can not say I put as much time into one character, I have many characters with a lot of lives and I just couldn't be bothered to start again. To run the same quests that we have thousands of times? If I have to start characters over it would be much more fun to go to a new game with new quests or better yet spend it in the real world.

    Yet again your post is emotional and not looking at it from a business perspective. Who knows how this will work out but it will be in the best interest of one party. It's not the exploiters or the people who didn't exploit ... it's all about Turbine and unless you are a Risk Analyst for them during your day job, I don't think you opinions are very realistic in business.
    Well that's your opinion and you are entitled to it.

    Mine happens to be that your'e entirely wrong about making such a trite assertion about anyone's knoweldge of buisiness, and more generally an acceptance that "that's life".

    I could bang on about the fundamental issues of corpoprate governance, and other business risk/control issues - but TBH, I have no inclination without getting paid for it.

    All I would say is that it is perfectly possible to hold an emoptional view of a matter, and a consistent logical one at the same time. To suggest otherwise seenms ot me akin to the "mice amorality" expressed ealrier. You really don't have to be risk analyst for Turbine, or anyone else for that matter to figure that out, and come to a conlcusion as to what punishmnet fits the crime here.

    Even it it were so, it does not mean one meekly accepts it. Doing so indirectly makes one part of the problem IMO, and tacitly approves the actions of the cheats. So, even if I'm wrong, I prefer not to do that. And (surprise, surprise! LOL!) I don't thik I'm wrong.

    I'm not suggesting for a second that your hubby has had any part in this - what I would say though is anyone who has, did so consciously, and it's too bad that they have to face the consequences of their choices. I do think that more akin to RL than trite assertions about how the rich guy always wins without consequence. To me, that's jsut a cop-out.

  10. #110
    Community Member tammyaline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkwier View Post
    Well that's your opinion and you are entitled to it.

    Mine happens to be that your'e entirely wrong about making such a trite assertion about anyone's knoweldge of buisiness, and more generally an acceptance that "that's life".

    I could bang on about the fundamental issues of corpoprate governance, and other business risk/control issues - but TBH, I have no inclination without getting paid for it.

    All I would say is that it is perfectly possible to hold an emoptional view of a matter, and a consistent logical one at the same time. To suggest otherwise seenms ot me akin to the "mice amorality" expressed ealrier. You really don't have to be risk analyst for Turbine, or anyone else for that matter to figure that out, and come to a conlcusion as to what punishmnet fits the crime here.

    Even it it were so, it does not mean one meekly accepts it. Doing so indirectly makes one part of the problem IMO, and tacitly approves the actions of the cheats. So, even if I'm wrong, I prefer not to do that. And (surprise, surprise! LOL!) I don't thik I'm wrong.

    I'm not suggesting for a second that your hubby has had any part in this - what I would say though is anyone who has, did so consciously, and it's too bad that they have to face the consequences of their choices. I do think that more akin to RL than trite assertions about how the rich guy always wins without consequence. To me, that's jsut a cop-out.

    Hey, I see your side, hence why I said that they need to punish and the best way is to "punish" the exploiters is with what they want most ... loot. I still think the best route is to ban until till after Mabar. And please don't talk all high and mighty about not getting paid for analysis! You aren't the only one in this game with a real job that is beyond DDO game player.

    Challenge the system ... give it to "the man." That's all well and good, but it's still a Turbine decision and no matter how much complaining is posted here for either side ... none of it is going to change the numbers. I don't believe any of my comments are a trite assertion, rather a well thought out flip side to the coin ... but to each their own.

    last note : calling someone out for trying to break a bit of the tension and add a bit of comic relief was uncalled for. Now you may have been joking as there was a smiley face but I didn't read it that way at all.....

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystera View Post
    So what happens to all the items I have posted on the asah? Are they getting returned to me, or did they disappear into oblivion? What happens to all the items I have bids on? I have over 700 astral shards bid on items right now, and I'd really like to get the item or the astral shards back.
    Yeah i would like to know that too since i had an otto's box in there.

  12. #112
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    If you cheated, stop trying to justify it and take your ban like an adult and not a child. A lot of people are sounding like my 5 year old in here. Others seem to be completely over-reacting.

    Sadly this little debacle means that Turbine devs and QA staff are spending less time working on bugs and other issues and more time trying to sort through who-did-what. Dealing with this stuff costs real time and money for companies. We're all losers in this scenario.

    So yeah, give the culprits a few weeks of time out to think about what they have done and delete the characters they used and everyone can learn from this and move on.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirgog View Post
    This is why they need to ban all accounts linked to the credit card of proven dupers, not just the account used.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    We need some permanent bans for the really egregious abusers. And announce that you've handed a few of those out. 5-day ban isn't going to deter anyone.
    My thoughts exactly. There's one thing I would add, though: the "do not ban buyers" rings true for buyers of a single imperial blood globe, or the likes. Buying 100 FRDS for 100 shards? If you know what a FRDS is well enough as to dish out 100 shards for a stack, you know those stacks are not legit. Give these "innocent buyers" at least a warning if you're afraid of a Mabar deja-vu. And keeping it at a warning level is extraordinarily lenient if you ask me.

    Yesterday a couple of friends and me were chilling at Eveningstar after some questing and one of them told us there were these 100+ scales stacks at the AH. I instantly told everyone in group not to touch those with a stick, since no doubt there was someting going on we didn't know. Everybody agreed w/o second thought.

    Everyone should be held responsible for his own deeds, and the fact someone else did something wrong doesn't mean I can try to take advantage of a blatant exploit, and if eventually Turbine catches the exploit, just have them reverse the transaction so that I get away with my attempt like nothing ever happened.

  14. #114
    Community Member tammyaline's Avatar
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    Default Time for sleep

    When it all comes down to it, I am not bothered either way. I am not harmed at all no matter what is decided by Turbine.

    Just trying to give a perspective that is less witch hunt and more logical on what may actually be decided. I'm somewhere between ban the world and imperial globes for all!

    Night all!

  15. #115
    Community Member Czekojin's Avatar
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    Smile

    This is what I think:
    The Stormreaver cannot challenge the Truthful One on his own. Without your support, he's defeated by the superior enemy.

  16. #116
    Community Member achitophel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fTdOmen View Post
    What about a hotfix that disables "auto gather" whilst you fix the underlying issue.
    Post 1 and the easiest solution!

    +1

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirgog View Post
    The inability of the GMs working at the time to see what was going on and to pull the plug on the server made the issue worse, yes.

    They have no fault in not noticing the initial duping.

    But once the stacks of 100 FGDS started appearing on the Sarlona AH en masse and this was being talked about, that was the time to ask questions (including looking at guild sites and other places where this information gets discussed). Once a DDO fansite had the 'how to dupe' details in their public forums, that was the time to shut the server down and reboot it with all bank NPCs removed and a launcher note apologizing for any inconvenience caused by the banks being down.
    It's even worse than that. Not only did they not notice what was going on, they ignored it when it was pointed out.

    First ticket I submitted, I said I thought something odd was going on because of all the stacks of items that were for sale. It was immediately closed with a message such as "players can sell whatever they want, this isn't a bug or exploit". Totally missing the point.

    Opened another, explained in more detail what was going on. This time I got a message from a GM saying "There are no exploits we're aware of at this time. Is there anything else I can help you with?".

    The GM suggested I put in a bug report. I did.

    I put in another when I found the instructions on a fan site.

    And all of this was 48 hours or more before they took any action.

  18. #118
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    Telero posted this in another thread:

    Discussions of specific disciplinary action against accounts isn't appropriate for the forums, and we're trying to be flexible with the current discussions who elect to not get into specifics, but at this point the threads are becoming duplicates of one another and running down the "guess what I heard" rabbit hole.

    Actions & investigations are already deploying, game patches are underway, and logs are being collected (particularly of those who shrugged off the launcher message regarding it). At this point there's not a lot left to say.

    Regarding the actions: anyone received a ban notice yet?
    I am a refugee of Devourer, abandoned by Coadmasters and washed up on the shores of the new world Thelanis under the rule of the Turbine empire. The locals are primative, the monsters are tough, and to survive in this savage land i must live by one philosophy... trust no one.

  19. #119
    Community Member kned225's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaelaros View Post
    I am very disturbed by the turn DDO has taken recently. Players being banned for exploits is wrong. If something is not working as intended, it is Turbine's responsibility to fix it.

    This isn't like stealing from an unlocked but closed grocery store. That is against the rules of society (a.k.a. the law).

    The rules of DDO are programmed into the game. My brother once said "How do you cheat at a computer game?" Short of hacking I would say that you can't. What qualifies as an 'exploit/cheat' is a matter of opinion. I have met players who consider artificers and/or other casters to be an exploit/cheat. The line between exploit/cheat and being a good player who uses the rules well is subjective.

    To see Turbine waste resources 'investigating accounts', instead of fixing problems, ticks me off. I reported the conjure bolts bug about 2 years ago, as far as I can tell, all they have done is add it to the list of known issues. A player named Kalda threatened to hunt me down and kill me (in real life) because I had a toon with a name that started with the letters k-a-l, he was not banned. At most he received a tell. So death threats are OK, but if a player uses the rules THAT TURBINE PROGRAMMED in a way Turbine failed to anticipate and doesn't like, they will get banned? The thing I love about this game is that I have tremendous flexibility to come up with novel approaches, and new ways to use the rules to maximize my effectiveness. I am not interested in continuing to play if I need to worry about getting banned for using the rules that they programmed.

    I spend several hundred a year on this game (which again, some players will consider a cheat/exploit). I will be checking back to see how this 'investigation' is handled. I am too disgusted to play tonight. If something is broken like this, or not WAI, Turbine should fix it. If Turbine continues this new policy of regularly banning players instead of fixing things, I will cancel my subscription. I am not interested in participating in a pretend society where we should live in constant fear that the secret police will ban us for some infraction that shouldn't have been possible if they consider it an infraction.
    This is the long way of saying "IM GUILTY!! PLEASE DON'T BAN ME!!!"

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirgog View Post
    This is why they need to ban all accounts linked to the credit card of proven dupers, not just the account used.

    Some will have thought ahead enough to avoid this, but you'll get most of the worst offenders.
    ^^ this.

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