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  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xanthrawl View Post
    I'm not saying they aren't responsible. I'm just saying the blame doesn't land squarely on their shoulders. Turbine's code made it possible. Are the stone of change recipes exploits because they are not clearly defined as intended. There is no barter UI to clearly show a recipe or what to expect from it.

    Would you call for a perma ban for other exploits? Safe spots, the other bag bug, etc? Imo this is not perma ban material. Perma ban is reserved for those who actively ruin the game for others. If this were the real world you might go to jail for stealing, but it probably wouldn't be a life sentence...
    I'm actually not a fan of perma bans unless in extreme cases or for repeat offenders and i honestly doubt there will be all too many of those happening.
    I just happen to find the "It's Turbines fault too so they should go easy on me!" excuse extremely lame.

  2. #162
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    Default The difference between an Idol ans savior and a cheat

    Quote Originally Posted by Xanthrawl View Post
    To all the people saying to perma-ban, let me give you a real life scenario. Jesus fed several thousand men using only a few loaves of bread and a couple fish. He is deemed a religious idol and savior. Someone turns 5 LDS into 10,000 and you scream ban them forever! :-P
    I am sure that if Jesus had gone on to sell those loves of bread and hoards of fish to those assembled for hard cash, people would have also seen him as exploiting things and he would never have become a religious idol.

    The issue most people have with this, and why the serious offenders should not get off with just a couple of days out of playtime, is not so much that many have used a bug to get themselves a bit easier access to better gear, but that they went on and started to do it big scale and for real life money (Astral shards).

  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Braegan View Post
    I never said there shouldn't be some level of accountability ones self must have.

    I did mention that fair and ethical business does not ignore a situation and then come heavy handed down on it. Which can be viewed as entrapment.

    I did also mention that some posters are just getting carried away with this and what they want to have happen.
    Ohhh i get it! It was a honey pot!

  4. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xanthrawl View Post
    I'm not saying they aren't responsible. I'm just saying the blame doesn't land squarely on their shoulders. Turbine's code made it possible. Are the stone of change recipes exploits because they are not clearly defined as intended. There is no barter UI to clearly show a recipe or what to expect from it.

    Would you call for a perma ban for other exploits? Safe spots, the other bag bug, etc? Imo this is not perma ban material. Perma ban is reserved for those who actively ruin the game for others. If this were the real world you might go to jail for stealing, but it probably wouldn't be a life sentence...
    I define an exploit as something that is (a) CLEARLY and BEYOND DOUBT not intended to work the way it does + it requires (b) CONSCOUS EFFORT + (c) CAN EASILY BE AVOIDED without reducing the playability of the game.

    With this definition duping items is an exploit:
    (a) When you click around and suddenly have 2 items instead of 1 (or 2 stacks instead of 1), that is clearly and beyond doubt not intended. Why would your character's items suddenly double? It makes no sense.
    (b) If it happens my misclicking, that's not conscious effort. You didn't want it to happen. If you do the necessary steps to re-create the effect time and again, that is a conscious effort.
    (c) You can run every quest and use every feature in the game wihtout being required to produce that effect. So producing the effect can be easily avoided.

    Counter-example:

    - the former Kobolds bug in Extraplanar challenges (fixed now afaik):
    (a) The challenge description will easily tell you that this is not how the challenge is suppose to work. So yes, that condition for an exploit is fulfilled.
    (b) By simply running the quest over and over you take advantage of the effect. So that's definitetely a conscious effort. Check.
    (c) The only way to avoid it, is not running that challenge. But if I am entitled to run this challenge, I have to "deal" with this unintended effect, whether I want to or not. I am not required to restrict myself in my choice of quests. So if I want the full access I am paying for, I cannot easily avoid this effect without reducing playability.
    Therefore: not an exploit.

    -

  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoBlackChaos View Post
    I used DDO's "duplication bug" to gather thousands of rare materials and ingredients... Come on! Investigate me!
    I am crystal clear in front of you. About four years now I spent more that 500 euro on this game plus I reported every bug in order to help around the gameplay. Always tolerated bugs and lag but NOW Turbine is "investigating" some accounts about a bug!

    I PLAYED THE GAME AS YOU SERVED IT!

    So stop "investigating" and start debugging this game.
    But did you go on and started selling them wholesale for real money (AS)?

  6. #166
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    And just for the record: I supposes it cannot be said often enough, so here goes...
    Having to write in black letters on a dark grey background is a very bad design choice.
    The forum hanging up when trying to use the edit button is very bad programmg.

  7. #167
    Community Member merridyan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Memnir View Post
    Don't feel like there is any kind of a rush to turn it back on.
    I am sure there is a rush internally to do this. Why do you think it took them so long to shut it down in the first place?

    Because they were selling shards at record numbers.

  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nascoe View Post
    I am sure that if Jesus had gone on to sell those loves of bread and hoards of fish to those assembled for hard cash, people would have also seen him as exploiting things and he would never have become a religious idol.
    I disagree. I'm an atheist, but I'll quite readily worship anyone who can duplicate bread and fish in front of my eyes IRL, whether he gives the food away or sells it. :P

  9. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by merridyan View Post
    I am sure there is a rush internally to do this. Why do you think it took them so long to shut it down in the first place?

    Because they were selling shards at record numbers.
    Heh i'm placing my bet on tommorrow or the day after.

  10. #170
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    Default Hm, Lets say it should be just like RL justice - each case judged on merit

    Quote Originally Posted by MalkavianX View Post
    I've held off responding to this "situation" since it started, thinking I'd see how it went. But then I read this post and felt I should chime in. I vehemently disagree with the post I quoted. Where I don't think people should get away unscathed, the part I have a problem with is bolded.

    Let me give you an example. Say there's a husband, wife, and their two kids playing. All four of them have vip accounts because dad is a nce guy and wanted them all to be able to play together. Now let's say little Billy found out about said exploit and participated in it. But his parents and older brother did not. Are you saying that all four accounts should be banned just because one of them participated? I don't normally use the word stupid, because of its negativity, but that is easily one of the more stupid solutions I've read in this entire thread.

    To reiterate, I think that people who knowingly participated in said exploit should be punished in some way. I also believe that a three day or a five day ban may not be enough, but a permanent ban is ludicrous. Make it a week, or even as someone else suggested, ban the offending account until Mabar is over. That would work for me.

    Also, "delete the characters that used the exploit"? Seriously seems a tad on the harsh side, doesn't it? I'm not saying they shouldn't be punished in some way, but character deletion seems equivalent to the old "steal a loaf of bread and they cut your hand off". Just sayin.....
    I get your point about the whole family. But honestly, I think the right approach is, to contact the holder of the card, inform him that his account(s) will be blocked for violation of this and that and leave a couple of days reaction time. Enough for the dad to wash his kids ears about it and sort things out as the responsible parent they hopefully are.
    I do not mean to discuss exact ways of how Turbine should punish, but as Tolero already mentioned they are investigating accounts and will take action but want to be careful to avoid overshooting by banning loads of players. That leaves enough room to consider the circumstances for cases as you mention.

  11. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by MalkavianX View Post

    Let me give you an example. Say there's a husband, wife, and their two kids playing. All four of them have vip accounts because dad is a nce guy and wanted them all to be able to play together. Now let's say little Billy found out about said exploit and participated in it. But his parents and older brother did not. Are you saying that all four accounts should be banned just because one of them participated? I don't normally use the word stupid, because of its negativity, but that is easily one of the more stupid solutions I've read in this entire thread.
    Let the parents try to sort that out with Turbine's customer service. Whatever little Billy does is their responsability as well.

    Cheaters aren't victims, full stop. Drop the permaban hammer on their IPs, Turbine Accounts, and credit card numbers. They won't be missed.
    Last edited by fredericko; 10-08-2013 at 10:28 AM.

  12. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by DunkleNymphe View Post
    I disagree. I'm an atheist, but I'll quite readily worship anyone who can duplicate bread and fish in front of my eyes IRL, whether he gives the food away or sells it. :P
    Pfff who wants bread or fish, now that water to wine trick i might worship someone for that.

  13. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by DunkleNymphe View Post
    I define an exploit as something that is (a) CLEARLY and BEYOND DOUBT not intended to work the way it does + it requires (b) CONSCOUS EFFORT + (c) CAN EASILY BE AVOIDED without reducing the playability of the game.

    With this definition duping items is an exploit:
    (a) When you click around and suddenly have 2 items instead of 1 (or 2 stacks instead of 1), that is clearly and beyond doubt not intended. Why would your character's items suddenly double? It makes no sense.
    (b) If it happens my misclicking, that's not conscious effort. You didn't want it to happen. If you do the necessary steps to re-create the effect time and again, that is a conscious effort.
    (c) You can run every quest and use every feature in the game wihtout being required to produce that effect. So producing the effect can be easily avoided.

    Counter-example:

    - the former Kobolds bug in Extraplanar challenges (fixed now afaik):
    (a) The challenge description will easily tell you that this is not how the challenge is suppose to work. So yes, that condition for an exploit is fulfilled.
    (b) By simply running the quest over and over you take advantage of the effect. So that's definitetely a conscious effort. Check.
    (c) The only way to avoid it, is not running that challenge. But if I am entitled to run this challenge, I have to "deal" with this unintended effect, whether I want to or not. I am not required to restrict myself in my choice of quests. So if I want the full access I am paying for, I cannot easily avoid this effect without reducing playability.
    Therefore: not an exploit.

    -
    So safe spot:
    Someone finds that you can stand on a fire and cannot be hit by mobs but can still hit them. This becomes the norm over a month as it hasn't been addressed. Sure, you could avoid the spot, but lets say you're a newer player or on a crappy past life. Party leader says everyone up here or you'll never be invited to my groups again. He's from a large guild you run with frequently. You don't want to risk being blacklisted by the entire guild. On the fire you go.

    It requires conscious thought, is avoidable, and it's clearly not intended as the mobs bug out/cannot harm you.

    Bannable?

  14. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by fredericko View Post
    Try to tell a police officer you need your driving license to drive your kids to school and to go to work after they catch you stoned, dead drunk, and speeding on a 30mph school area. Maybe you should double check your logic before you go about flinching the word "stupid" so lightly -which for sure is encouraged by the forums ToS, btw - but why should anyone respect any ToS, right - that's what you're talking about after all: blatant cheating, saying "sorry officer" and then back in the saddle after a couple of days have gone by.

    Cheaters aren't victims, full stop. Drop the permaban hammer on their IPs, Turbine Accounts, and credit card numbers. They won't be missed.
    You do realize that this kind of violation will also not necessarily lead to a PERMANENT revoke of the driving license?

    Besides, who pays for the account does not necessarily have to be same person who actually plays. So using your example, it would be like not only punishing the drivier but also the car-owner.

  15. #175
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    I'm all for punishment. Just not permanent. That's an over the top reaction. Give them an AS penalty, a TP penalty, destroy the items, ban them for a month. But permanent bans are going too far.

    If you get caught stealing you could go to jail. You might also have to do community service and pay a fine. But it's probably not going to be a life sentence. Bernie Madoff stole 17 billion and was sentenced to 150 years (life.) Are you saying people made that kind of cash?

  16. #176
    Community Member rest's Avatar
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    I love all this frothing at the mouth. I'm really glad this happened, if only for the sheer entertainment value of people completely losing their ish over this.

  17. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xanthrawl View Post
    So safe spot:
    Someone finds that you can stand on a fire and cannot be hit by mobs but can still hit them. This becomes the norm over a month as it hasn't been addressed. Sure, you could avoid the spot, but lets say you're a newer player or on a crappy past life. Party leader says everyone up here or you'll never be invited to my groups again. He's from a large guild you run with frequently. You don't want to risk being blacklisted by the entire guild. On the fire you go.

    It requires conscious thought, is avoidable, and it's clearly not intended as the mobs bug out/cannot harm you.

    Bannable?
    Ahh the dilemma between integrity and being the cool guy, never gets old.

    Anyways actionable ? Yep. Perma Bannable ? Nah that'd be overkill.

  18. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by DunkleNymphe View Post
    You do realize that this kind of violation will also not necessarily lead to a PERMANENT revoke of the driving license?

    Besides, who pays for the account does not necessarily have to be same person who actually plays. So using your example, it would be like not only punishing the drivier but also the car-owner.
    I've edited my post to a more concise and to the point answer, which I'll tell you again: if I let Little Billy go play with my credit card I can be held responsible for whatever he does with it.

    All this "aaaw it's not so bad", "aaaaw it was Turbine's fault to begin with" stinks of "oh gawd do not let them get me!". If Turbine wants to start investigating my suggestion is they start taking good note of the folks in this thread that are against firm disciplinary measures and advocate a couple of days off DDO instead of saying with a clear, firm voice: I'm not interested in having abusers littering DDO.

    I've said it before, and I'll say it again: cheaters aren't victims. Get rid of them, the sooner the better.

  19. #179
    Community Member Eistander's Avatar
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    If people would be so steadfast and fervent in their real life goings on regarding cheating and the like, MMOs wouldn't exist as the world would be a much better place.. man... all this rage over something that happened in a game? I mean, I get it, I really do that this sucks for the player's bottom line with the potential glut of stuff that is sitting out there, but to the extent that people are raging about this is telling about how bad things really are lol.. real life analogies over a video game?

    But yeah, when stuff like this happens, it does take the wind out of the proverbial sails.. if nothing else, it has been acknowledged and will get corrected. I am just disgusted with this holier-than-thou attitude that some posters are touting, as if not doing something in an online game makes them so much better than anyone else. I am gonna go for a walk, and try not to kick a puppy.. then I might feel as good as these permaban seekers. Burn down their computers starting with Sector 0 while we're at it, that'll teach them!

    /rant
    Science may be theory, but stupidity is proven.

  20. #180
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DunkleNymphe View Post
    You do realize that this kind of violation will also not necessarily lead to a PERMANENT revoke of the driving license?
    Sure, people can create another account and start from scratch. All their previous time invested, in part exploiting, should be erased.

    Quote Originally Posted by DunkleNymphe View Post
    Besides, who pays for the account does not necessarily have to be same person who actually plays. So using your example, it would be like not only punishing the drivier but also the car-owner.
    Good. Its still the person who plays who cannot play any longer, regardless of who pays.

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