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  1. #301
    2016 DDO Players Council LXP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    This whole attempt to equate exploitation with bugs, or claim that exploitation is justified because of bugs, or similar -- it's a load of nonsense. Anyone who thinks exploits like this "help the player" is either one of those incredibly weak people who can only have fun with a game in "god mode" or simply has no idea how much damage things like this do to the game as a whole.

    Tell me -- are you "helped" by the sort of disruption we've seen to the game over the last few days? On Sarlona at least, the already nearly-dead LFM panel has been one step closer to permanent mortality.

    Are you "helped" by having some of the few things that anyone had to work for, or look forward to, destroyed? Like the two rarest augments, reasons to hope for a lucky drop running EE content, now so common as to be barely worth anything? That "helps" you how exactly?

    How about the many people who have stopped playing, some never to return? Like those who spent real money on AS to buy items that are now pretty much worthless?

    I'm personally having a hard time even wanting to log on of late. This was a direct consequence of this exploit, the number of people who apparently think exploits are fine, and Turbines lackadaisical response to it. And it's funny, but something about looking at other games has taken the veneer off this one and made me realize just how out of date, poorly maintained and lacking in content and activities this one is. Even though the other game I tried has much simpler character progression and combat, there's a lot more to do. As opposed to this one, where I have to *find* ways to keep myself occupied.

    Every time things like this happen, it motivates more people to look elsewhere. And some of them will stay where they go. Is that "helping" you as a player?

    I'm almost certainly cancelling my VIP membership at the end of the year and spending that $100 on a different game, and this exploit was the straw that broke the camel's back. I know it was for others as well. Is Turbine getting less money "helping" you as a player?
    I couldn't agree more, and I'd be happy if you stay, don't cancel your VIP status, and continue to support the player base.
    Roobee, the Fallen Child of Darkness
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  2. #302
    Community Member kned225's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryiah View Post
    No. What he is saying is if you are going to hold your players responsible, then the developer should be equally responsible for allowing such a stupid mistake to hit live. If I recall correctly there was a thread somewhere in the Lamannia forums about this exploit (aka it was known before it hit live).
    "Should" doesnt matter, morals dont matter. Code of Conduct is God here, and you agreed to it. Its turbines sandbox, they decide the rules

  3. #303
    Community Member Ryiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LXP View Post
    Muchas gracias for letting everyone know your tribe.
    Yes, I admit it. I am part of the "Turbine is ultimately to blame" tribe.

    Quote Originally Posted by LXP View Post
    Reported for falsifying my post by modfying the quote.
    Nice to see you're part of the "Report everyone who disagrees with me" tribe.

    Quote Originally Posted by LXP View Post
    Welcome to my blacklist, too.
    Which means that you must have one big blacklist.
    Ryiah | Raeyah | Reikara
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  4. #304
    Community Member Ryiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kned225 View Post
    "Should" doesnt matter, morals dont matter. Code of Conduct is God here, and you agreed to it. Its turbines sandbox, they decide the rules
    Which makes it all the funnier when I see people who go on about having moral standards that won't let them exploit the game. Failing to realize that Turbine's rules permit themselves to exploit the players however they wish so long as it is within the rules of the legal system.
    Ryiah | Raeyah | Reikara
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  5. #305
    2016 DDO Players Council LXP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryiah View Post
    Yes, I admit it. I am part of the "Turbine is ultimately to blame" tribe.


    Nice to see you're part of the "Report everyone who disagrees with me" tribe.


    Which means that you must have one big blacklist.
    False about my tribe. I report violations, not people who disagree.

    True about my blacklist.
    Roobee, the Fallen Child of Darkness
    Guild leader of Friends of Dorothy
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  6. #306
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uska View Post
    I hope they ban each and every one of them
    I cannot say that I agree with the exploiters and their justification for using them, but I must say that I am eager to see if/when we see the mass bannings.

    After/if we see this, I will be the first person that comes back to these threads when the new trend of threads are "why can't I find a group?" Won't bother me much as I short man or solo, but your demand for blood will only hurt yourself, many other people that can't solo, and the bottom line that WB demands every quarter.
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  7. #307
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    The sheer level of conjecture and lawyering that its OK before Turbine defines whatever action is being debated at the time as not WAI and acts on it is only eclipsed by the sheer level of backpedaling after they do, by those who wish to justify signing an agreement, then breaking said agreement. Since the probability is higher that a user of an account who has taken advantage of the current situation has also taken advantage of previous situations, accounts found to be breaking the agreement this time around should further investigated. How far does this rabbithole go I wonder?
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  8. #308
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    I cannot say that I agree with the exploiters and their justification for using them, but I must say that I am eager to see if/when we see the mass bannings.

    After/if we see this, I will be the first person that comes back to these threads when the new trend of threads are "why can't I find a group?" Won't bother me much as I short man or solo, but your demand for blood will only hurt yourself, many other people that can't solo, and the bottom line that WB demands every quarter.
    What you describe happens two weeks after every update launch. Its nothing new.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  9. #309
    Community Member Ryiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LXP View Post
    I report violations, not people who disagree.
    I've had experience in administrating forums in the past. Someone who will report the littlest things claiming they are violations (I want proof by the way) is generally not worth wasting my time with as they tend to clutter up the report system. This tends to hide those reports which deal with something truly worth reporting.
    Last edited by Ryiah; 10-09-2013 at 07:59 AM.
    Ryiah | Raeyah | Reikara
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  10. #310
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    Ban and server merge.
    Stay happy

  11. #311
    2016 DDO Players Council LXP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryiah View Post
    I've had experience in administrating forums in the past. Someone who will report the littlest things claiming they are violations (I want proof by the way) is generally not worth wasting my time with as they tend to clutter up the report system. This tends to hide those reports which deal with something truly worth reporting.
    Well, I didn't ask you to waste your time by reading my posts, commenting them or falsifying them. Neither am wasting mine by giving you proof that you can easily gather yourself.
    Roobee, the Fallen Child of Darkness
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  12. #312
    Community Member Ryiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    How far does this rabbithole go I wonder?
    How much is Turbine willing to invest towards a proper testing environment? This exploit, along with the other existing problems, exists because Turbine doesn't use Lamannia as an environment for trying to strain out the few remaining problems. Rather it exists almost entirely to allow players to prepare for any incoming changes to their characters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    What you describe happens two weeks after every update launch. Its nothing new.
    Except that we just recently had an expansion which completely destroyed end game. Enough problems piled on will eventually cause some people to lose faith in Turbine and leave for greener pastures.
    Last edited by Ryiah; 10-09-2013 at 08:11 AM.
    Ryiah | Raeyah | Reikara
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  13. #313
    Community Member Singular's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaelaros View Post
    I think that this post, in part, referred to a nasty post directed at me. Ironically it has still convinced me to cancel my subscription (which I did before posting this). This new hardline attitude is unacceptable. If there is a flaw in your program. You should quietly fix it. You should not try to suppress all information about it while pointedly not fixing it (as Turbine has been doing until recently). You also shouldn't give in to your tyrannical impulses, whipping out the banhammer, and trying to sow fear among your customers with dire warnings about 'investigations', and inconsistently enforced rules that randomly get harsher at whim (as Turbine is doing now). I refuse to pay to pretend to live in a culture of fear, never knowing when I'm going to be investigated. Shall I live in fear of banning because I used Spectral Gloves against an incorporeal enemy with a ranged weapon? The description clearly states that it is for melee weapons. Shall we all live in fear of being investigated? An investigation of any given player would almost certainly turn up something that SOMEONE would consider cheating.

    Notably I did not in any way participate in the duplication exploit. I don't even know what NPC people are referring to and I have never bought anything off of the SE, and nothing suspicious off of the AH.

    Some food for thought as I'm leaving. The following is a list of things that I have heard people refer to as cheating/exploiting and things that some people obviously would consider cheating/exploiting (note many people consider anything smacking of 'pay to win' cheating):
    Running an artificer
    Running any other caster
    Using UMD to cast spells with scrolls/wands
    Using the AH to buy good items
    Buying anything from the DDO store (tomes are a particularly common complaint)
    Using 'safe' spots (killing a monster from a place they cannot attack)
    Using buyback to gain multiple copies of exclusive items
    Using Spectral Gloves or similar items against incorporeal targets with ranged weapons
    Jumping in place while firing ranged weapons to build up Archer's Focus (to avoid many attacks)
    Using epic destiny twists at heroic levels
    Using Adrenaline Overload with Manyshot (particularly with Slaying Arrows)
    Multi-classing
    Using Elven/Half-Elf Arcane Archers that aren't rangers
    Creating warforged characters
    Duplicating items (not sure how they did it this time, but regardless, I have seen other ways of doing it in the past)

    Notably, this list is incomplete (it was just the things I could think of off the top of my head). Also notable is that there will be wildly conflicting opinions on whether or not any given item on that list is ACTUALLY cheating (with various rationalizations on both sides). And they are all just that: opinions. Banning people over this sort of thing just creates a climate of fear, that ruins the game a lot more than: 'that guy just used Healing Spring at 15th level!' (whiney 6-year-old voice)

    If there is a problem with the game (and I do consider several items on the list problems) it should be fixed. But, it is Turbine's responsibility to fix the problem. I was a paying player, and I refuse to pay to live in constant fear that someone will come along and have me banned for what they consider to be cheating. It would also help if Turbine actually fixed the bugs that are reported. I have a list on my desktop of 18 bugs (note that some of those are in turn links to lists of bugs) that I have reported that have gone unfixed. And, I stopped reporting bugs or adding them to the list a long time ago, because none were getting fixed. Now instead of fixing these bugs, Turbine is going to investigate and ban people who might use bugs to their advantage (or that run afoul of some auto-ban protocol)? So, Turbine has the resources to program in a protocol to auto-ban people that use an exploit, but not the resources to fix that exploit? And to respond to the poster that apparently lives in a barter economy: by resources I was partly referring to money. Turbine is wasting resources by spending money on salaries/wages/overtime for administrators to investigate and ban, rather than spending money on salaries/wages/overtime for programmers to fix the exploits. I'm supposed to tolerate this treatment? I don't think so. My subscription is already cancelled, and I will be uninstalling presently. Goodbye.
    I agree with your stance on some levels. Ultimately, exploits that exist are Turbine's responsibility - however, it's also their responsibility not only to create, but to manage a fair atmosphere. That requires having rules - and these players agreed to by installing the game. As in other games - like cards or chess - breaking the rules destroys the point of the game, removes the possibility of skill, determination and creativity at the game modifying the outcome. So the game itself loses meaning.

    Your other points - grouping with an artificer or caster - are just silly and detract from your main point.

  14. #314
    Community Member Ryiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LXP View Post
    Well, I didn't ask you to waste your time by reading my posts, commenting them or falsifying them. Neither am wasting mine by giving you proof that you can easily gather yourself.
    For someone who is apparently so eager to report people I am surprised you don't keep a bookmark to the code of conduct. A bit disappointing but then I didn't really expect you to provide any proof.
    Ryiah | Raeyah | Reikara
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  15. #315

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    Quote Originally Posted by Superhik View Post
    Users of this product simply put, only played the cards they where dealt with, wonderfully if I might add.
    Personal responsibility and integrity is such a corny concept.

  16. #316
    2016 DDO Players Council LXP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryiah View Post
    For someone who is apparently so eager to report people I am surprised you don't keep a bookmark to the code of conduct. A bit disappointing but then I didn't really expect you to provide any proof.
    Lol, funny - how would you know anything about my bookmarks?
    Roobee, the Fallen Child of Darkness
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  17. #317
    Community Member Ryiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LXP View Post
    Lol, funny - how would you know anything about my bookmarks?
    While there are multiple terms for implying that the link is kept close by, bookmark seemed the most appropriate considering the forums are accessed via web browser.
    Ryiah | Raeyah | Reikara
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  18. #318

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaeton_Seraph View Post
    It's clear from what he wrote that he in no way implied that he was made to do anything. You're putting words into his mouth and being rude, disingenuous, and kind of annoying.


    I do partly agree with the OP, things that reach the live servers should be finished product. Yet most updates require hotfixes.

    This MMO does its utmost to nickel and dime us every chance it can. They intentionally create problems that require us to buy (often inadequate) solutions.

    It's made even clearer by the fact that they only shut down the ASAH, and not the plat house. Astral Shards, which they insist are not real currency, are treated with more priority than platinum (the same AS that were removed from Dice rolls, meaning that all new AS must be injected into the game though TP purchases).


    They clearly view their customers as being there only for the purposes of paying. So why should the customer base feel any more compunction than the developer?


    If players want to remove countless hours of playability with the dupe exploit, or use twists to power level with streaks at levels they shouldn't be able to do normally the only deterrent, from my point of view, seems to be loss of fun.

    Considering the crowds I was seeing around banks all day before the hotfix, I don't think a lot of people are as self-righteous as you seem to be Stoerm.
    We have worlds like 'exploit' for a reason. The word itself have a negative connotation. The reason why it has a negative connotation is because an exploit ain't good.

    It's a dysfunction in a design that was not meant to be. Sometimes they're benign. Like a way to shave some time off a quest by being able to take a slightly different but not designed rout.

    Other times it's game breaking as it destroys the economy or even worse, leap frog progress.

    But it's always a personal choice to use an exploit. And people who can't see right from wrong always blames someone or something else.

  19. #319
    2016 DDO Players Council LXP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryiah View Post
    While there are multiple terms for implying that the link is kept close by, bookmark seemed the most appropriate considering the forums are accessed via web browser.
    You are beginning to contradict yourself - which in fact doesn't come as a surprise.
    Roobee, the Fallen Child of Darkness
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  20. #320
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryiah View Post
    No. What he is saying is if you are going to hold your players responsible, then the developer should be equally responsible for allowing such a stupid mistake to hit live. If I recall correctly there was a thread somewhere in the Lamannia forums about this exploit (aka it was known before it hit live).
    The dev isn't responsible, the manager who refuses to allocate time toward bug fixes and QA is responsible. The logic he is using is that if something can be taken advantage, it should be, as it can be justified by saying if the ability to take advantage of it didn't exist in the first place, then advantage could not be taken. This leads to negative behavior patterns in a hurry, both in a video game, and in real life. Justifying said negative behavior patterns when the negative impact of them is not high, merely opens the door for higher negative impact versions of the same behavior to exist using the same justification as a blanket statement the entire time, all due to lack of willingness to curtail said behavior in the first place.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

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