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  1. #1
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    Default Risk, reward, and business common sense

    1. If reward is supposed to be proportional to risk, why are there really challenging level 17 quests that give less XP than fairly ordinary level 7 quests?

    2. Why would a company spend likely thousands of person-hours designing, developing, testing and marketing new content, and then give it so little XP that people uniformly recommend to others that they not buy the pack, as I just heard again this morning?

    3. Given #1 and #2, and the fact that this could be corrected literally in one day by just changing some XP numbers to more appropriate values, and that not doing this is likely costing Turbine a ton of money in people not buying their new packs, why don't they correct it?

  2. #2
    2016 DDO Players Council Qhualor's Avatar
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    a lot of the xp in the lower levels was during a different era of the game than what it is now. xp today is what it is because it was supposed to slow our progress down and my tinfoil hat says its a good way also to increase store sales if you want to level faster. when the xp curve is changed, hopefully the adjustment is better, but I do agree the xp is all over the place. I honestly don't think its something that can be fixed in a day. it may or may not be simply changing a number or two in the base xp. you have to take into account how much xp is needed to get to your next level and how the increase of xp is needed per level will be affected down the line. some quests need a boost in xp and others need to lose some xp. you also have to figure in the value of the xp and optionals per quest. some people think in terms of xp/min which is the norm in the game now. some don't think that way. you have to keep in mind of the under geared new player and the overly geared veteran. theres a lot of variables to think about and im sure theres more than this.

  3. #3
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    1. If reward is supposed to be proportional to risk, why are there really challenging level 17 quests that give less XP than fairly ordinary level 7 quests?

    2. Why would a company spend likely thousands of person-hours designing, developing, testing and marketing new content, and then give it so little XP that people uniformly recommend to others that they not buy the pack, as I just heard again this morning?

    3. Given #1 and #2, and the fact that this could be corrected literally in one day by just changing some XP numbers to more appropriate values, and that not doing this is likely costing Turbine a ton of money in people not buying their new packs, why don't they correct it?
    It's these sort of common sense issues that really has me losing faith in Turbine. Illogical decisions combined with lack of communication on those issues leads me to believe they are actually being force fed these decisions to purposely make the game fail. I've been trying to find some other logical reason for these issues, but it all comes back to one of two possibilities. They are actually that bad at game design (I refuse to believe they have an entire staff that is just that illogical and incapable), or someone up top is telling them to do these things because they are either that bad at game design or they have some other motivation such as forcing the game to fail or be put into maintenance mode to save on money. Nobody with any common sense or slightest inkling of game design would do this on purpose for any other reasons. My spending has come to a complete halt until I get some clue that this game is not headed straight to maintenance mode or complete server shutdown.
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  4. #4
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Designed inconvenience means more people purchasing convenience mechanisms. They don't mind us farming through levels 1-14 quickly. Allowing us to get through it as quickly in 15-20 quests means less XP pot / ottos stone sales. In order for purchased convenience to fly off the shelves, there needs to be designed inconvenience.

    Now where are my "people should enjoy playing the entire game" folks?
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    It's these sort of common sense issues that really has me losing faith in Turbine. Illogical decisions combined with lack of communication on those issues leads me to believe they are actually being force fed these decisions to purposely make the game fail. I've been trying to find some other logical reason for these issues, but it all comes back to one of two possibilities. They are actually that bad at game design (I refuse to believe they have an entire staff that is just that illogical and incapable), or someone up top is telling them to do these things because they are either that bad at game design or they have some other motivation such as forcing the game to fail or be put into maintenance mode to save on money. Nobody with any common sense or slightest inkling of game design would do this on purpose for any other reasons. My spending has come to a complete halt until I get some clue that this game is not headed straight to maintenance mode or complete server shutdown.
    Yep, that's pretty much it for me as well. This, combined with their utter lack of care or attention to cheating, is really pulling all the blooms off the rose for me, shall we say.

    My VIP is due for renewal in January. Anyone know: if I cancel now do I remain VIP until then or does it go away immediately?

    I may continue to play using what I can buy with my existing TP but this company gets not one more red cent from me until they start showing that they care at least as much about their product as I do. There may be no other game out there like DDO but I'm not going to reward this sort of behavior any longer.

  6. #6
    2016 DDO Players Council Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    Yep, that's pretty much it for me as well. This, combined with their utter lack of care or attention to cheating, is really pulling all the blooms off the rose for me, shall we say.

    My VIP is due for renewal in January. Anyone know: if I cancel now do I remain VIP until then or does it go away immediately?

    I may continue to play using what I can buy with my existing TP but this company gets not one more red cent from me until they start showing that they care at least as much about their product as I do. There may be no other game out there like DDO but I'm not going to reward this sort of behavior any longer.
    I don't remember exactly, but you are VIP until your anniversary day or the end of the month after you cancel.

    I still pay VIP, but I don't pay much more than that because I don't want to reward them for decisions they make that I disagree with. my disagreements I wouldn't call small either, like I refuse to buy Shadowfell because they had the new enhancements and other game changes on Lamma the same time as the expansion. I didn't think it was right that I had to pre-pay for it when I just wanted to check out the changes and when I could have logged on as a VIP, I had problems with character copy and couldn't get over there. I don't care for the whole P2W direction either, so that's another big reason. if/when they make improvements in these areas than I will pay more like I used to, but if another DDO like game comes out it wouldn't take much to convince me to switch.

  7. #7
    Community Member Ryiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    This, combined with their utter lack of care or attention to cheating, is really pulling all the blooms off the rose for me, shall we say.
    Fixing bugs hastily can easily cause more problems than were already present. I would prefer they take their time to sort out the problem properly.
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  8. #8
    Community Member djl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    Yep, that's pretty much it for me as well. This, combined with their utter lack of care or attention to cheating, is really pulling all the blooms off the rose for me, shall we say.

    My VIP is due for renewal in January. Anyone know: if I cancel now do I remain VIP until then or does it go away immediately?

    I may continue to play using what I can buy with my existing TP but this company gets not one more red cent from me until they start showing that they care at least as much about their product as I do. There may be no other game out there like DDO but I'm not going to reward this sort of behavior any longer.
    VIP is paid up-front for the entirety of the subscription; you retain the benefits until it is due again.

    I am like you. I used to be a BIG spender on this game. Altogether, I've probably sunk close to 500 dollars between expansion packs and TP sales. But no more. Because of all the bugs and the lack of interesting content to run, I'm not spending anymore on the game. Not until I see a substantial change in direction. I am letting my VIP expire (it runs out in December) and I am not buying any more TP either.

    Right now, it does look suspiciously like Turbine is deliberately sabotaging the game. I mean, all the bugs and idiotic decisions (like the raid list debacle) aside, what were they thinking by proposing to give away +6 tomes in Mabar? That completely undermines their own bottom line by ensuring they sell many less +4 and +5 tomes in their store. The only alternative is, as said, that they are truly THAT incompetent, which is just as bad. Either way, they do not deserve my dollar votes until they can prove otherwise.
    Last edited by djl; 10-06-2013 at 01:22 PM.

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    Thanks. If I can't cancel it early then that means I will miss all the pack sales in December. I'm not paying full price for the packs so that might drive me from the game to a great extent.

  10. #10
    Community Member djl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    Thanks. If I can't cancel it early then that means I will miss all the pack sales in December. I'm not paying full price for the packs so that might drive me from the game to a great extent.
    Well, it helps that due to Turbine's boneheaded decision to completely abandon support for all of the Eberron content, more than half of those packs are not worth having anymore.

  11. #11
    Hero JOTMON's Avatar
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    DDO teaches one lesson well..

    "Common sense is not so common."
    Jotmon - Let's not forget why we play these games - to have fun - ~
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    Update 24: Champions... "whew, it's ok, it's only a red name" .. sad day when trash spawn Champions and their one-shot ignore fort attacks instill more party fear than the Red named bosses.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by djl View Post
    Well, it helps that due to Turbine's boneheaded decision to completely abandon support for all of the Eberron content, more than half of those packs are not worth having anymore.
    I TR regularly and I'm used to being able to run pretty much whatever. I guess I'll see what happens but I can see myself mothballing until a good sale comes along.

  13. #13
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    1. If reward is supposed to be proportional to risk, why are there really challenging level 17 quests that give less XP than fairly ordinary level 7 quests?

    2. Why would a company spend likely thousands of person-hours designing, developing, testing and marketing new content, and then give it so little XP that people uniformly recommend to others that they not buy the pack, as I just heard again this morning?

    3. Given #1 and #2, and the fact that this could be corrected literally in one day by just changing some XP numbers to more appropriate values, and that not doing this is likely costing Turbine a ton of money in people not buying their new packs, why don't they correct it?
    I agree the XP of the quests sucks.

    I will continue to do my TR work in Eberron content (largely stuff pre Update 10)

  14. #14
    Hero nibel's Avatar
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    While I agree that a LOT of high level quests need to get their XP raised up, we should stop comparing them to Wiz-King, Von 3 and Shadow Crypt. Those three quests are on the opposite side, of giving "too much" (mostly because of optionals. The base is debatable because of quest length/difficulty). I would add Litany to the list, but that ridiculous flagging system makes it somewhat worthy of a high XP value.

    Keeping cheaters walking in game with no drawbacks is another major problem here. There are at least 3 major exploits in game right now that ios so widespread that some people don't even consider it cheating because "if it was cheating, Turbine would have fixed it already". I agree with Turbine policy to not point fingers to people that received bans, but would help a lot on PR if they did punishes some people and said in generic terms. Something like "We banned X people for Y time for exploiting. Please, if you find a bug, fill a bug report and do not exploit it."
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    I want DDO to be a better game. Those are my personal suggestions on: Ammunition, Archmage, Combat Stances, Deities, Dispel Magic, Epic Destiny Map, Fast Healing, Favor, Favored Enemy, Half-elf Enhancements, Monk Kensai, Monk Stances, Past Life, Potency, Potions, Ranger Spells, Summons, Tiered Loot.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by djl View Post
    what were they thinking by proposing to give away +6 tomes in Mabar? That completely undermines their own bottom line by ensuring they sell many less +4 and +5 tomes
    Really? 1 BTC tome per character would severly impact their bottom line on tome sales? Could they have been hoping it would encourage convenience purchases like the Draughts of Midnight?

    As for the rest of their head scratchingly inane decisions... Who knows...
    I certainly have my tinfoil moments theorizing internal directives aimed at gaining a tax wright-off; though I more seriously believe there's some nasally voiced desk monkey that honestly believes there's a bunch of families out there with 2.3 kids saying "according to the data..." calling the poorly aimed shots.

    As far as quest/pack design goes, I honestly like the MotU chain (from Lords of Dust all the way through the raid flagging) and find it enjoyable overall, too bad the raid itself sucks. I have heard nothing exciting enough about the quest design of anything since then to encourage me to purchase something, so I haven't.

    To perfectly honest, Turbine lost a valuable commodity when they lost the team that designed the Lods March series. That was the last great example of quest design. Fun quests, utilizing both options of brute force or stealth in multiple cases, and adding in fun jokes & references like "Inky & The Pain" and the giant Boulder of Doom ala Raiders of the Lost Arc... And Framework! The IMO the best hack & slash quest in the game, with optionals like "kill even more minotaurs" "kill something besides a minotaur" and "now finish what you started..." Sure, you can choose to stealth it instead, but then upon completion the npc "grumbles about too much noise & not enough violence." Priceless...

    You want more of my money from quest sales Turbine? Either bring ^them^ back on the payroll, or instruct your current design peeps to learn from and design more of that.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow - btw, do you have change for 10 million population?

  16. #16
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    We can produce numbers showing that all quests over a certain level should be worth a basic 1k per minute before BB, streak bonus, VOM, VIP, pots etc etc.

    But at the end of the day, we know the quests that give totally meh xp.

    I'm pretty sure that Turbine can produce a log file across the servers for quests showing the "average" completion times. So given that they have the means to extract the data, it only leaves the fact that they're not willing to make these changes.

    If they are willing to make the changes but lack the data, then we can provide it very easily.

    I'm not saying that the XP should be completely uniform, but it always achieve a minimum to make it worthwhile for an "average" party. If an uber party can do it quicker for higher xp/min, then so what, that's just the way it is.

  17. #17
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Asking for them to change xp will just result in them nerfing what is currently good xp down to challenge levels. They put it as low xp to try to get people to buy xp potions. Turbine doesn't want to design a good game, they want to design a good short term money pit.

  18. #18
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryiah View Post
    Fixing bugs hastily can easily cause more problems than were already present. I would prefer they take their time to sort out the problem properly.
    Or tested it first, and sorted it out properly before it even got released.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    I'm not saying that the XP should be completely uniform, but it always achieve a minimum to make it worthwhile for an "average" party. If an uber party can do it quicker for higher xp/min, then so what, that's just the way it is.
    Agreed, the xp for any quest should be in the category of "worth it." Of course, even if they did readjust the higher level quests xp (which really should happen) there would still always be winners and losers in various people's opinions of "worth while" as there would just be a new minimum established (under ideal circumstances of course) to which most quests would fail to live up.

    This reminds me, can't wait 'til they "recurve" the xp for TRs (and first life's? I don't remember); leading a bunch of "low level quests had their xp proxy nerfed" by comparative value to whats needed at that level while ignoring that higher level quest xp will be proxy buffed by the same change in comparative value to what's need at that level.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow - btw, do you have change for 10 million population?

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    To perfectly honest, Turbine lost a valuable commodity when they lost the team that designed the Lods March series. That was the last great example of quest design. Fun quests, utilizing both options of brute force or stealth in multiple cases, and adding in fun jokes & references like "Inky & The Pain" and the giant Boulder of Doom ala Raiders of the Lost Arc... And Framework! The IMO the best hack & slash quest in the game, with optionals like "kill even more minotaurs" "kill something besides a minotaur" and "now finish what you started..." Sure, you can choose to stealth it instead, but then upon completion the npc "grumbles about too much noise & not enough violence." Priceless...
    Still among my favorites in the game and one of many reasons I'll never buy any "boxes". The frying-pan guy in the level 13 finale is the best mob in the game.

    Some of the Xoriat quests are also fun. Did Lord of Eyes this morning and there's this great side-scene where a medua and a beholder are trying to have a staring contest... LOL

    I think many MOTU quests are also pretty good, others not so great. The stuff since then has been mediocre in every way -- quest quality, drops and XP. What a waste.

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