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  1. #21
    The Hatchery sirgog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by axel15810 View Post
    Really tempted to try this build instead of my normal 17 cleric/ 2 fighter / 1 wiz. This build has much better survivability but what hurts is you don't get Kensei +3 to tactics and you lose 2 feats as oppossed to the fighter/wiz splash. So stunning blow is tough to pull off which really hurts your DPS alot of the time...still though having that survivability looks awesome....I may have to roll up an alt sometime
    My attitude here is to let the 'real melees' do the stunning. I'm not going to be the best at everything and landing stuns requires a lot of build focus that would hurt the core goals of this build.

    Quote Originally Posted by bucyrus View Post
    Strike hits me for 230-250 but i have healing amp. As said before looks instantaneous on strike and has a haste aura radius
    If it is instantaneous on hitting the button and heals for that much I will definitely take it. I was expecting a much slower response (~300ms for the game to recognise that you've hit the 'Smite' button, ~700ms to carry out the Smite, then ~200ms to actually proc the heal). A free quickened MCLW is nothing to sneeze at, however.
    I don't have a zerging problem.

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  2. #22
    The Hatchery sirgog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post
    Its permanent.
    This is indeed a pain with the Blur effect.

    On a build that relied upon SP as the only healing resource, I would not take this enhancement for the aforementioned Torc/ConcOpp dissynergy. However, on a build that has Aura I'm much less likely to Torc up anyway (not that Torc is all that crash hot with the much larger incoming damage numbers nowadays; I still use it but it is no longer the best item in the game like it was for a long time).
    I don't have a zerging problem.

    I'm zerging. That's YOUR problem.

  3. #23
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    I'm trying to do this build as a 34 pt build. Can you go into more detail on why you don't advise it with less than a 36 pt build? You don't advise critical past lives, and I can't imagine the difference between 14/15 base and 16 base charisma being overly significant.

  4. #24
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    Why not CLR17/WIZ1 for Melee Cleric?

    Gives you all the melee you need for heroic content...

    then add FTR2 for more feats. If you are a melee build why wait for those feats till lvl 27. You get the heavy armor. You lose the saves true, but you don't need the Charisma then and can dump it. There is so much gear readily availble at all levels now for saves. The devs are just trying to get newbies through heroic quickly to buy new epic content. I know saves are important for EE, but is Pal2 and upping CHR worth it?

    With FTR2 you can fit in Empower and maybe Heighten or Enlarge too.

    I agree that the light power is a little on the lame side from EDs for Divine Punishment, but do I understand right that you are using it on mobs? I just use it for red and orange names. SLAs are truely helpful now even for a melee build and especially for my Generalist build.
    Last edited by firemedium_jt; 10-08-2013 at 10:31 PM.
    Your lack of healing amp not my problem. Please buy and use your own remove curse pots in combat, so I don't waste mana. Not my job.

  5. #25
    Community Member bucyrus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by firemedium_jt View Post
    Why not CLR17/WIZ1 for Melee Cleric?

    Gives you all the melee you need for heroic content...

    then add FTR2 for more feats. If you are a melee build why wait for those feats till lvl 27. You get the heavy armor. You lose the saves true, but you don't need the Charisma then and can dump it. There is so much gear readily availble at all levels now for saves. The devs are just trying to get newbies through heroic quickly to buy new epic content. I know saves are important for EE, but is Pal2 and upping CHR worth it?
    Paladin is well worth it because the synergy between CHA, Saves, Divine Might and significant increase in the number of turns available. The additional turns for burst plus Amel Strike is the difference between getting to a shrine with SP to spare versus drinking a pot. Of course having a good group helps too
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by firemedium_jt View Post
    Why not CLR17/WIZ1 for Melee Cleric?

    Gives you all the melee you need for heroic content...

    You lose the saves true, but you don't need the Charisma then and can dump it.

    Now that Divine Might is 2 minutes long, has a super fast cast time and uses your CHA modifier, you don't want to ever dump CHA anymore on a melee cleric build since every rank of CHA is pretty much the same as every rank of STR. You're better off giving yourself a few ranks of CHA than spending 6 build points on that last rank of STR. And that's not even mentioning that every rank of CHA gives you an additional turn and improves your turning ability for insta killing undead.

    But I am torn between the 2 fighter/ 1 wiz and the 2 pally / 1 fighter myself. I guess it all comes down to do you want more feats or better saves?

  7. #27
    The Hatchery sirgog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varashad View Post
    I'm trying to do this build as a 34 pt build. Can you go into more detail on why you don't advise it with less than a 36 pt build? You don't advise critical past lives, and I can't imagine the difference between 14/15 base and 16 base charisma being overly significant.
    Should be fine as 34 (although the loss of Paladin lives will hurt).


    Quote Originally Posted by axel15810 View Post

    But I am torn between the 2 fighter/ 1 wiz and the 2 pally / 1 fighter myself. I guess it all comes down to do you want more feats or better saves?
    I made the mistake of trying this as Clr17/Ftr1/Mnk2 earlier; the saves were abysmal and I kept spending quality time getting to really know the ground every time a mob Cometfalled.

    Saves and PRR are so critical in high level play now that I respecced into the heavy armor, no evasion Pal2/Ftr1 splash.
    I don't have a zerging problem.

    I'm zerging. That's YOUR problem.

  8. #28
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by axel15810 View Post
    Now that Divine Might is 2 minutes long, has a super fast cast time and uses your CHA modifier, you don't want to ever dump CHA anymore on a melee cleric build since every rank of CHA is pretty much the same as every rank of STR. You're better off giving yourself a few ranks of CHA than spending 6 build points on that last rank of STR. And that's not even mentioning that every rank of CHA gives you an additional turn and improves your turning ability for insta killing undead.

    But I am torn between the 2 fighter/ 1 wiz and the 2 pally / 1 fighter myself. I guess it all comes down to do you want more feats or better saves?
    I like having cha as 2nd stat (after str) but its not true that cha gives the same as str.
    Each point of charisma past 10 gives 0,5 str bonus, so its still better to focus mostly on str.
    Also, whatever you do, forget about turning at higher difficulties/levels.
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post
    I like having cha as 2nd stat (after str) but its not true that cha gives the same as str.
    Each point of charisma past 10 gives 0,5 str bonus, so its still better to focus mostly on str.
    Also, whatever you do, forget about turning at higher difficulties/levels.
    It does not stack with insightful STR. If you have a Insightful STR +2 item that is typical, so only the CHR after 12 stacks. Also DM costs 15sp. Yeah saves are important for EE.

    Every melee feat is nice percentage increase in damage.

    But if you are dead from lack of saves then what is the point. You could just hang back and DOT and SLA and heal if things get too hot. After all that is what SP is for. And use the extra melee feats on mobs to save sp, but I have not run much lvl25+ content yet, and just hang back in EE when necessary, however, if there are tons of healers for the group I will melee even in EE if we are short melee and cast more if we are short there.

    IMHO 6 build points on STR for 2 points on a CLR17 is a waste.

    I would also ask with cheap SLAs now should you be dumping Wisdom even on a melee build?
    I guess it depends on your spell book and SLAs and enhancement selection.
    Last edited by firemedium_jt; 10-09-2013 at 09:11 PM.
    Your lack of healing amp not my problem. Please buy and use your own remove curse pots in combat, so I don't waste mana. Not my job.

  10. #30
    The Hatchery sirgog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by firemedium_jt View Post
    It does not stack with insightful STR. If you have a Insightful STR +2 item that is typical, so only the CHR after 12 stacks. Also DM costs 15sp. Yeah saves are important for EE.

    Every melee feat is nice percentage increase in damage.

    But if you are dead from lack of saves then what is the point. You could just hang back and DOT and SLA and heal if things get too hot. After all that is what SP is for. And use the extra melee feats on mobs to save sp, but I have not run much lvl25+ content yet, and just hang back in EE when necessary, however, if there are tons of healers for the group I will melee even in EE if we are short melee and cast more if we are short there.

    IMHO 6 build points on STR for 2 points on a CLR17 is a waste.

    I would also ask with cheap SLAs now should you be dumping Wisdom even on a melee build?
    I guess it depends on your spell book and SLAs and enhancement selection.
    I'm now of the opinion that the ONLY character that should start with 18 in Str is a character using Str-based tactics. Otherwise it is not worth it.

    Noone is going to wear an Insightful Str item on a character with access to Divine Might, and as Insightful stats are still hard to slot, you can just use another one that helps you more. Insightful Con is best, but Cha and Dex do something for you too.


    As for DOTs - I do not use them much now. The damage per mana isn't so hot - spending 50 SP for 2000-3000 damage (at a three-stack without Radiance equipment) or maybe 4000 damage (with a Radiance item equipped) - 3000 damage was a lot a while ago, it isn't now. If it's that dangerous to be in close, I'll just let the durable melees kill the target and go healbot mode for a second.

    I do DOT in EH against bosses and also to pull aggro of specific monsters when it is useful (which is why Nimbus of Light is by far my most often cast damage spell now - 4SP, aggros any mob that hasn't seen the party yet).
    I don't have a zerging problem.

    I'm zerging. That's YOUR problem.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by axel15810 View Post
    Now that Divine Might is 2 minutes long, has a super fast cast time and uses your CHA modifier, you don't want to ever dump CHA anymore on a melee cleric build since every rank of CHA is pretty much the same as every rank of STR. You're better off giving yourself a few ranks of CHA than spending 6 build points on that last rank of STR. And that's not even mentioning that every rank of CHA gives you an additional turn and improves your turning ability for insta killing undead.
    Ignore turning. Turns are a resource used for healing and for Divine Might, nothing else.

    Turning is fun to do while levelling and that is it.
    I don't have a zerging problem.

    I'm zerging. That's YOUR problem.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post
    I like having cha as 2nd stat (after str) but its not true that cha gives the same as str.
    Each point of charisma past 10 gives 0,5 str bonus, so its still better to focus mostly on str.
    Also, whatever you do, forget about turning at higher difficulties/levels.
    Please explain? Maybe I'm missing something because from what I understand is the recent change to Divine Might causes it to add your CHA modifier directly to your STR as an insight bonus.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirgog View Post
    Ignore turning. Turns are a resource used for healing and for Divine Might, nothing else.

    Turning is fun to do while levelling and that is it.
    Divine Might now uses spell points, not turns for clerics.

    And I generally agree about turning undead and don't use it myself, although it is fun to play around with and if you run mainly EH it can still be useful at endgame.

  14. #34
    Community Member wtorchia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by axel15810 View Post
    Please explain? Maybe I'm missing something because from what I understand is the recent change to Divine Might causes it to add your CHA modifier directly to your STR as an insight bonus.

    You get your CH bonus as a insightful ST bonus. So +2 CH gives you +1 insightful st. I can see not taking ST to max and putting it into CH. 6 build points to max ST gives you more in CH, WS or some other helpful stat.

  15. #35
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by axel15810 View Post
    Please explain? Maybe I'm missing something because from what I understand is the recent change to Divine Might causes it to add your CHA modifier directly to your STR as an insight bonus.
    2 points of cha = 1 point of str.

    Instead of loading everything possible into cha, or splitting even into cha and str, its better to focus on str.

    For example, if you got choice to increase str or cha by 2 points via enchancement, item or something, its better to take direct str improvement instead of cha to have better DM.

    But of course, I don't have a paladin splash, so I'm speaking from perspective of someone who is not adding cha to saves.
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  16. #36
    Community Member wtorchia's Avatar
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    For those going TWF, is the cleave line with overwhelming crit worth it? I last played this build as a THF, and I am mid TR to TWF and have not taken the cleave line yet.

    As a follow up has anyone tried 2 x Celestia, Brightest Star of Day or Nightmare, the Fallen Moon? I have them already 2 x Celectia and 1 x Nightmare, I just have not upgraded them yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post
    2 points of cha = 1 point of str.

    Instead of loading everything possible into cha, or splitting even into cha and str, its better to focus on str.

    For example, if you got choice to increase str or cha by 2 points via enchancement, item or something, its better to take direct str improvement instead of cha to have better DM.

    But of course, I don't have a paladin splash, so I'm speaking from perspective of someone who is not adding cha to saves.
    +1

    4 points of CHR = 2 pts of STR = +1 to hit and damage.

    I can see upping STR to 16 and CHR to 14, but to spend 2 build pts on CHR for this is not worth it. The PAL2 for saves is more important than this, but investing with more than one build pt seems a waste. Heck you might want to take Resilience instead if you plan to just melee and take another melee feat with FTR2. On my Generalists CLR17/WIZ1/FTR2 Human did not dump Wisdom and took Heighten to help it. It might not have been as useful before the new enhancements, but now I am seeing returns on this with cheap SLAs.

    http://ddowiki.com/page/Resilience

    Not sure if this feat even stacks with everything else or not???

    Resilience affects cooldowns for spells. But if all you do is melee and use Aura and heal yourself with spells it might work. Healing the others in the party might be tough with 3x cooldowns on your spells.

    I hope you are using Divine Favor all the time then because it give +3 for hit and damage for 10 sp.
    Last edited by firemedium_jt; 10-10-2013 at 01:34 PM.
    Your lack of healing amp not my problem. Please buy and use your own remove curse pots in combat, so I don't waste mana. Not my job.

  18. #38
    The Hatchery sirgog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wtorchia View Post
    For those going TWF, is the cleave line with overwhelming crit worth it? I last played this build as a THF, and I am mid TR to TWF and have not taken the cleave line yet.

    As a follow up has anyone tried 2 x Celestia, Brightest Star of Day or Nightmare, the Fallen Moon? I have them already 2 x Celectia and 1 x Nightmare, I just have not upgraded them yet.
    TWF would be a totally different build altogether. Not saying it can't work (or that other major variations like a base FVS build can't work), but I'd rather this thread be about things reasonably close to the original build.
    I don't have a zerging problem.

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  19. #39
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    If Human, make sure to try out Action Surge with Divine Might. Since DM 'locks in' the Charisma modifier used to determine Strength bonus, a boost has to be hit first (alas) to get the boosted Cha.

    Sinking 3 points each into Action Surge Cha and Str, this is potentially potentially +5 to Str* for 17 or 18 seconds, dwindling down to +2 for the rest of DM.

    *on top of whatever was bonuses are going on for the build. This potential +5 boils down to starting the buff with an odd Cha score (+3 Cha = +2 Str) + 3 Str = 5 Str).

    However at higher levels might not be worth the opportunity loss (roughly 2 attacks if THF/SHB, possibly 3-5 if TWF/Monk)

  20. #40
    Community Member wtorchia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirgog View Post
    TWF would be a totally different build altogether. Not saying it can't work (or that other major variations like a base FVS build can't work), but I'd rather this thread be about things reasonably close to the original build.
    Fair enough. To add some thing from my last life with this build. I found that going half orc for the PA, THF, and ST lines added a lot. Add on a high ST boost from LD and I was sitting at a static 38+ ST. I also found my self just not bothering to cast spells at all. I would buff and the just solo blitz the quest. Between aura, turns and a few con op proc I never really needed to shrine in most quests. I was doing WAY more damage with an upgraded cleaver then my spells could match.

    Really this build plays like a paladin that can raid heal. The only reason I switched out was to try out a pure caster. I am lvl 18 now and looking to LR back into it. It just has sooooooooooooooo much going for it.

    A note on gear. I ran with 20% / 30% healing amp. This was not enough at times. That is the other reason I TRd. I wanted to try the build with more HA from human.

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