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  1. #121
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saravis View Post

    4 parts
    AFK while waiting at a lever in the maze.
    AFK while waiting for someone to run the obstacle.
    AFK while waiting for someone to make the swim.
    AFK while someone does the doors.

    The obstacle and doors are short, unless someone is messing up.
    However, all that makes up the majority of the quest, with a little fighting in between.



    For a little bit of the maze there is group advancement, but that quickly diminishes when players get assigned to levers and then have to wait for the runner. As I said, I'd like for the maze to be adjusted so someone isn't waiting at a lever. Someone shouldn't be having to sit at a lever, that's just bad design. If they absolutely have to sit at a lever, have something for them to do. As for the wheels, I like that, have more of that. All the players have something to do.
    .
    these are some of my favorite parts in Crucible (parts where I don't have to constantly hold down the W key)

    I much prefer parts where the W key is not held continuously throughout the quest with small pauses to defeat a mob like in Devils Assault and the end bit of Weapons Shipment where the mobs come to me and I can give my poor W key a break.

  2. #122
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saravis View Post
    You keep going back to the learning thing, I'm past that. When you want to learn it, join a learning group or solo it, I'm talking about running in a standard group.
    Learning isnt excluded from being in a standard group. Neither is teaching. Its as I stated before, if im playing with like minded folks, im not stepping on anyone elses toes.


    Quote Originally Posted by Saravis View Post
    Well that's an entirely different issue. Personally I believe that dungeon scaling shouldn't exist. It should be a challenge to solo a quest, the quest shouldn't be catered to soloing. As it stands though when running in a group the dungeon scales itself to be challenging for upwards of 3 players, so it does provide inclusion for the group.
    I agree with you here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saravis View Post
    AFK while waiting at a lever in the maze.
    Shouldnt be afk. That lever needs to be used multiple times to get the rest of the party through.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saravis View Post
    AFK while waiting for someone to run the obstacle.
    All of a couple minutes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saravis View Post
    AFK while waiting for someone to make the swim.
    Now that the door is open, go break stuff we didnt break before and kill any stray mobs we didnt get. Or, go turn the lever making it easier on the swimmer. Or do the swim with them to get better at it/ get the underwater chest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saravis View Post
    AFK while someone does the doors.
    Person with lowest wis reads book and opens door, done. No afk, it takes 15 seconds.


    Quote Originally Posted by Saravis View Post
    The obstacle and doors are short, unless someone is messing up.
    However, all that makes up the majority of the quest, with a little fighting in between.
    Those are the severe minority of the quest. Running the maze is faster with more people. Killing the mobs is faster with more people. Turning the wheels is far easier with more people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saravis View Post
    For a little bit of the maze there is group advancement, but that quickly diminishes when players get assigned to levers and then have to wait for the runner. As I said, I'd like for the maze to be adjusted so someone isn't waiting at a lever. Someone shouldn't be having to sit at a lever, that's just bad design. If they absolutely have to sit at a lever, have something for them to do. As for the wheels, I like that, have more of that. All the players have something to do.
    The maze is forced cooperation and communication, not afk.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saravis View Post
    You're just repeating what you said before, so I'll just refer you to my reply. That's an issue of dungeon scaling, not dungeon design. Crucible's issue of inclusion is because of its design.
    Dungeon scaling didnt exist when crucible was designed. I dont like scaling either, as it promotes not grouping as the path of least resistance, in an MMO, which is completely contradictory to what MMOs are.


    Quote Originally Posted by Saravis View Post
    I'm not complaining about having to participate. Quite the opposite, I'm arguing that Crucible should be designed to have more participation. Nor am I for removing it from the Saga, its the Gianthold Saga, all of Gianthold should be completed. All that I'm saying is it needs to be redesigned so that all players have something to do. Are you really against having more to do because that's what you keep arguing with me about.
    Im not against having more to do, Im refuting theres less to do. If people choose to participate more the quest goes more smoothly not only on this run, but in future runs as well, because the precident isnt set that 5 of us can pike while one person does the heavy lifting. The fact that people do pike is a community issue and a player issue, not a quest design issue.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  3. #123
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saravis View Post
    You keep going back to the learning thing, I'm past that. When you want to learn it, join a learning group or solo it, I'm talking about running in a standard group.




    Well that's an entirely different issue. Personally I believe that dungeon scaling shouldn't exist. It should be a challenge to solo a quest, the quest shouldn't be catered to soloing. As it stands though when running in a group the dungeon scales itself to be challenging for upwards of 3 players, so it does provide inclusion for the group.



    4 parts
    AFK while waiting at a lever in the maze.
    AFK while waiting for someone to run the obstacle.
    AFK while waiting for someone to make the swim.
    AFK while someone does the doors.

    The obstacle and doors are short, unless someone is messing up.
    However, all that makes up the majority of the quest, with a little fighting in between.



    For a little bit of the maze there is group advancement, but that quickly diminishes when players get assigned to levers and then have to wait for the runner. As I said, I'd like for the maze to be adjusted so someone isn't waiting at a lever. Someone shouldn't be having to sit at a lever, that's just bad design. If they absolutely have to sit at a lever, have something for them to do. As for the wheels, I like that, have more of that. All the players have something to do.



    You're just repeating what you said before, so I'll just refer you to my reply. That's an issue of dungeon scaling, not dungeon design. Crucible's issue of inclusion is because of its design.



    I'm not complaining about having to participate. Quite the opposite, I'm arguing that Crucible should be designed to have more participation. Nor am I for removing it from the Saga, its the Gianthold Saga, all of Gianthold should be completed. All that I'm saying is it needs to be redesigned so that all players have something to do. Are you really against having more to do because that's what you keep arguing with me about.
    you keep talking like you are standing at a wheel for a long period of time. in a standard group, that doesn't happen. it only happens when nobody knows the maze and nobody looks up wiki.

    same thing for the timed run. it takes 10 seconds to grab the horn. usually it doesn't take more than 3 tries if you are not good with the timing and jumping.

    the swim takes max 5 minutes. i will give you that much, but everyone can participate if they want. there is a wheel to change the water flow so its a matter of moving up and down to avoid the spikes. there should be no issue here.

    the wis check part is just opening the same door over and over now because no one today is going to have a low wis score. haven't seen this trick take more than a couple minutes. side note, theres a noted change to this part on the wiki and its the first i have heard about this.

    Test of Instinct: Horn of Instinct is inside 1 of the 6 doors. The Tome at the center will give you hints, according to your wisdom score. One method is to get a member with lowest wisdom (usually classes like fighter) and have him/her read the tome. Do the OPPOSITE of what the book hints at. The lowest wis score gets a false hint, the other party members get a truthful one
    on elite 12 wis (not lowest of party) got false hint, roll of 30 failed trap

    the wheel turning takes 5 seconds so that is anon issue, unless you want to count fighting the mobs on top of the maze.

    so unless you are in a group that doesn't know anything about the quest and doesn't want spoilers, it takes max 10 minutes of "piking" or "afk" as you call it and half of that is the swim and these "afks" are broken up in 5 parts. so this is why Crucible was removed from the flagging? because people couldn't handle a total of 10 minute afks and thought that only 1 specific build had to be the only one to do all the work? pretty sad.

  4. #124
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gywiden View Post
    Okay, I wanted to get the Heroic GH saga done. However, I've never been able to successfully run the Crucible. I've tried doing the solo-have hire pull valves thing ddowiki says is possible--I get stuck. I asked my best friend on the game, he was insulted that I even asked him to run it (I even suggested casual, he declined). I asked a guy who was running GH walkups, he was okay doing it. Everyone wanted Elite (prob because of BB). As the game progressed everybody got depressed and gave up: one by one.

    How is somebody actually supposed to get this done? I mean, not that people don't succeed. I'm just saying, it seems like their is a high rate of failure and depression/tension associated with the quest. It was dropped from flagging; if it usually just makes people point fingers and get angry, insulted, depressed, etc., is it really a good idea to make it mandatory for a new feature?

    Just a thought.
    Turbine removing Crucible from flagging requirements is a big part of the reason the quest is not as complete able as it once was.

    with little incentive to run the quest it rarely gets run anymore so the learning curve for those who can't do it already gets ramped up by not having the opportunity to learn it when flagging.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by MartinusWyllt View Post
    No, really, how do you keep the lever in focus for the hire while getting the crests?

    Disable the autofocus (default is 'G'), and use the mouse cursor to pick up the crest.
    http://myaccount.turbine.com

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  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Removing it from flagging nerfed the game, saying you're glad it's not a flagger is saying you were happy game difficulty was nerfed.
    Warning: Incoming loot grind rant!

    The problem is that if it hadn't been removed, Epic Gianthold would be a dead pack. People wouldn't "suffer" through Crucible, they'd entirely ignore the whole eGH loot grind. Why? You guessed it, because the loot wasn't needed to do anything. It was simply a trophy. People could skip eGH and be no worse off than those that didn't.

    There's many things that people dislike about Crucible, but none of it is really that it's hard. The biggest problem is that for a vast majority of people, it requires a group, and people in DDO just don't like to group.

    I enjoy Crucible, I really do, but all this "Crucibled" nonsense isn't being fair to Turbine. Were they just supposed to release a dead pack with a raid that would never successfully draw enough people to be ran? All that hard work down the drain? Of course, people may actually "suffer" through Crucible if it had a point. If the loot had a point. If there was actual hard content that required the best loot in the game to be used. But of course, there isn't, so it makes the whole thing optional.

  7. #127
    Community Member MartinusWyllt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    Disable the autofocus (default is 'G'), and use the mouse cursor to pick up the crest.
    Thanks!

  8. #128
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    There's many things that people dislike about Crucible, but none of it is really that it's hard. The biggest problem is that for a vast majority of people, it requires a group, and people in DDO just don't like to group.
    Console games are a better fit for them.

  9. #129
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    Warning: Incoming loot grind rant!

    The problem is that if it hadn't been removed, Epic Gianthold would be a dead pack. People wouldn't "suffer" through Crucible, they'd entirely ignore the whole eGH loot grind. Why? You guessed it, because the loot wasn't needed to do anything. It was simply a trophy. People could skip eGH and be no worse off than those that didn't.
    I don't believe this at all. Theres an entire contingent of folks who play for loot and they wouldn't let the fact that the crucible was a flagging quest stop them from running for loot in epics just like they never did before when they wanted their madstone boots for the previous 6 years of the games existence.

    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    There's many things that people dislike about Crucible, but none of it is really that it's hard. The biggest problem is that for a vast majority of people, it requires a group, and people in DDO just don't like to group.
    I don't believe people don't like to group. They don't like to PUG. Theres a huge difference. People that don't like to group play skyrim.

    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    I enjoy Crucible, I really do, but all this "Crucibled" nonsense isn't being fair to Turbine. Were they just supposed to release a dead pack with a raid that would never successfully draw enough people to be ran? All that hard work down the drain? Of course, people may actually "suffer" through Crucible if it had a point. If the loot had a point. If there was actual hard content that required the best loot in the game to be used. But of course, there isn't, so it makes the whole thing optional.
    Saying the raid would be dead is nonsense. We have 6 years of evidence showing the reaver raid wasn't dead. Crucible + tor with all 3 dragons + a 60 relic turn in was required, and that content was popular.

    Being ones own advocate wins, and the cant be bothered mentality loses, in each one of these threads where people want changes made to the game to suit their own agenda.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    I don't believe this at all. Theres an entire contingent of folks who play for loot and they wouldn't let the fact that the crucible was a flagging quest stop them from running for loot in epics just like they never did before when they wanted their madstone boots for the previous 6 years of the games existence.



    I don't believe people don't like to group. They don't like to PUG. Theres a huge difference.



    Saying the raid would be dead is nonsense. We have 6 years of evidence showing the reaver raid wasn't dead. Crucible + tor with all 3 dragons + a 60 relic turn in was required, and that content was popular.

    Being ones own advocate wins, and the cant be bothered mentality loses, in each one of these threads where people want changes made to the game to suit their own agenda.
    The thing you're forgetting is that heroic gianthold gear has a purpose, while Epic gear doesn't. People were willing to suffer through Crucible on heroic because they were able to actually use their gear to beat harder content. eGH was already the hardest content in the game. You needed to beat it to get the gear, therefore you didn't need the gear to beat it.

    Do you honestly believe that Turbine just removed Crucible for the fun of it? Do you often find that Turbine's decisions seem to be based on things that you yourself disagree with and don't see from your experiences in game? Why do you think that is? Who do you think has the full picture? Who do you think is likely to be right? You complain a lot about p2w and moves Turbine makes to make more money. So, wouldn't you think that the move to remove Crucible was related to them wanting to make more money? Why do you think they came to this conclusion?

  11. #131
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    The thing you're forgetting is that heroic gianthold gear has a purpose, while Epic gear doesn't. People were willing to suffer through Crucible on heroic because they were able to actually use their gear to beat harder content.
    Are you honestly so delusional that you think hgh gear was needed to beat any content?

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Are you honestly so delusional that you think hgh gear was needed to beat any content?
    For some people, yes. But that isn't the point. It could be used. It had a USE. It's the same reason that Shroud still gets ran constantly. The loot has a use. It can be used for content.

  13. #133
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    For some people, yes. But that isn't the point. It could be used. It had a USE. It's the same reason that Shroud still gets ran constantly. The loot has a use. It can be used for content.
    Well since fot gear can be obtained on en and then used in ee if someone chose to do so, I'm thinking you have no point. Not to mention you seem completely incapable of understanding gear is the carrot that keeps character advancement going which is the heart of mmos, which means that the exact thing you are against has been making the industry money for over a decade. You are delusional and out of touch with reality.

  14. #134
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Well I for 1 am glad that its part of the saga..........to me it kind of makes up for the fact that its not a flagging quest. It seems to me both sets of people benefit or at least have some compromise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Well since fot gear can be obtained on en and then used in ee if someone chose to do so, I'm thinking you have no point. Not to mention you seem completely incapable of understanding gear is the carrot that keeps character advancement going which is the heart of mmos, which means that the exact thing you are against has been making the industry money for over a decade. You are delusional and out of touch with reality.
    lol seems like you two go over the same subject all the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    I'm trying to figure out if he's an effective troll or if he honestly believes the nonsense he spouts.
    a lot of Cons and trolls after a while start believing their own BS so.................
    Last edited by NaturalHazard; 10-04-2013 at 07:30 PM.

  15. #135
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Are you honestly so delusional that you think hgh gear was needed to beat any content?
    ignore that guy he thinks people play DDO only for the challenge and not for the loot. he wants trophies and achievement unlocks rather than carrots.

  16. #136
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanngiostr View Post
    ignore that guy he thinks people play DDO only for the challenge and not for the loot. he wants trophies and achievement unlocks rather than carrots.
    I like carrots but I feel more like a cookie right now.......can I haz cookie?

  17. #137
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanngiostr View Post
    ignore that guy he thinks people play DDO only for the challenge and not for the loot. he wants trophies and achievement unlocks rather than carrots.
    I'm trying to figure out if he's an effective troll or if he honestly believes the nonsense he spouts.

  18. #138
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    I like carrots but I feel more like a cookie right now.......can I haz cookie?
    We lied about the cookies, don't look so surprised.

  19. #139
    Community Member Dreppo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    We lied about the cookies, don't look so surprised.
    I knew the cake was a lie, but the cookies too???

  20. #140
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreppo View Post
    I knew the cake was a lie, but the cookies too???
    Why do you think we're the dark side? We lie.

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