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  1. #81
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saravis View Post
    Not really. In the maze someone is piking on a lever, there's no choice in that matter. There's no reason for more than one person to do the obstacle course and same with the water part, unless you're planning on killing the mobs, which I've never seen done. There's also no reason for more than one person to do the doors. So while a player can tag along for any of those and pretend that he's participating, he's really not.
    There is plenty reason for people to do the course and swim. To learn it. Plain and simple. If people are not doing this, its on them, and not on those who pushed themselves to learn it, to alter their course of action in the matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saravis View Post
    I like the Crucible, when I'm actually doing something in it. When its someone else, its just boring. If it wants to be a group quest it needs to be redesigned to include all the players. The maze needs to be redesigned so that a player isn't just sitting at a lever after he's used it, increase the mobs to account for increased participation. The obstacle course could either be redesigned to make use of more players or have something for those who aren't running it. For the water part you could either have an alternate path for those who have trouble with the fan, though challenging in a different way, or there could be a lever after the fan that can turn it off, so someone still has to pass through it. Then increase the amount of mobs in the water part to make it harder for just one person to get the item.
    The only reason it doesnt include all the players is because the players dont include themselves. You could make this case for every quest in the game. 5 people can stand at the entrance while one person does all the heavy lifting. The fact that they can run it that way doesnt mean they should.

    Having fun in DDO means being ones own advocate. If we dont like piking while someone else does the heavy lifting, we dont need to. The myth that it must be done this way is perpetuated by those who want the path of least resistance to the most XP or reward (which is why 5 people sit there and do nothing while one person does the swim in the first place). When I cant beat something on elite, I didnt think twice about dropping to hard. Its far better than asking for it to be altered for everyone else, simply to suit my playstyle. If that means I get hard saga reward rather than elite saga reward, so be it.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  2. #82
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Each nerf request you post, god kills a kitten. 2 kittens in one week. Please think of the kittens.

  3. #83
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    When Crucible first came out, we use to do the swim in pairs. And actually went after the Chest that was part way through.

    In reality the swim is now easier to do, no more multiple saves on the spikes and even loot that now gives you evasion while swimming.

    I agree it never should have been removed from the Flagging and it should not be removed from a SAGA completion that is an optional objective that includes all of the other Gianthold Quests.

  4. #84
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    Grow up. I didn't ask for anything to be nerfed here.
    You are attempting to beat the crucible on the forums rather than in game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    Since you appear to either have difficulty looking at what people actually say rather than what you imagine they said, or you like misrepresenting them on purpose, let me help you out:
    You can help yourself out by refraining to alter everyone elses game experience by demanding things you dont like to be removed from requirement lists. Theres no misrepresentation whatsoever here. The fact that you continue to repeat that there is doesnt make it so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    I said, not once but twice, that I supported keeping the Crucible in the GH saga. Despite that, you claim that I want something nerfed with respect to Crucible.
    Then why did you attempt to label my post which agrees it needs to be kept in the saga list a load of manure? Because this is not what you are advocating at all. If you were, you would not have challenged my assessment of the situation in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    I ask you to quote where I want something nerfed, you bring up a different thread to try to change the subject, and then repeat again an implication that I want the saga changed, when I said I didn't. The quotes are just above.
    There is no change in subject. you have been asking for nerfs of stuff on your agenda list, and Im pulling your card on it, again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    That's not "perfectly accurate accounting of the situation". It's being blatantly dishonest.
    Its not dishonest, its absolutely correct line of thinking. Want elite saga rewards, play saga on elite.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    You know, a couple of weeks ago on a channel your name came up. Someone made a negative remark and I was the only one to stand up for you. I'm starting to understand the reactions I got to my comment.
    Join their lot if you wish, but I will warn you it is not a friendly lot. I know who they are, and I assure you, when theres no other outsider they can blame for failure, they eat eachother. I watched it happen last weekend. I wish I had thought to roll FRAPS. I would have had the top 2013 MMO blow out video.
    Last edited by Chai; 10-04-2013 at 04:43 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  5. #85
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Join their lot if you wish, but I will warn you it is not a friendly lot. I know who they are, and I assure you, when theres no other outsider they can blame for failure, they eat eachother. I watched it happen last weekend. I wish I had thought to roll FRAPS. I would have had the top 2013 MMO blow out video.
    I'm sad you didn't just hearing that, those videos are comic gold.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Then why did you attempt to label my post which agrees it needs to be kept in the saga list a load of manure? Because this is not what you are advocating at all. If you were, you would not have challenged my assessment of the situation in the first place.
    Are you for real? I quoted directly from your post what I was calling a load of manure: "Then youre doing it wrong, every single time you run the quest because you dont need to pike in that quest, ever." And: "The idea that one person does portions of the quest while everyone else pikes is borne of people feeling that specific archtypes (usually evasion with high reflex) are needed in order to do it, and wanting to complete as quickly as possible therefore sending only the most favorable archtype in. "

    There was nothing in what I quoted, either time, about the saga list.

    I've already provided TWO direct quotes saying I am fine with Crucible being in the GH saga.

    I don't know what your problem is, but I DO know that I am done trying to have a discussion with someone who either can't read or has some pathological need to misrepresent someone else's viewpoint despite clear, simple English making very clear what those views are.

    Just to be clear once again: AT NO POINT DID I ASK THAT ANYTHING RELATED TO CRUCIBLE BE NERFED. And with that, welcome to the bozo bin.

  7. #87
    Community Member Saravis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    There is plenty reason for people to do the course and swim. To learn it. Plain and simple. If people are not doing this, its on them, and not on those who pushed themselves to learn it, to alter their course of action in the matter.
    It only takes one time to learn it, what about the rest of the time? Furthermore, that's up to the group if its willing to risk difficulties that comes up with a newbie learning and up to the runner if he's willing to teach the newbie. Interesting that you say its not on those who've chosen to learn it because it is on them to teach the newbies that want to learn.



    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The only reason it doesnt include all the players is because the players dont include themselves. You could make this case for every quest in the game. 5 people can stand at the entrance while one person does all the heavy lifting. The fact that they can run it that way doesnt mean they should.
    It only takes one person to pull a lever. It only takes one person to grab an item. The other players can tag along, but for what purpose? Again as I said, you can pretend that you're participating, but you aren't. If you grab the item and the other player doesn't, there was no reason for him to be there. If he grabs the item and you don't, there's no reason for you to be there. It has nothing to do with choosing to be included, it has everything to do with having a reason to be included. The quest needs to be redesigned to include all players. Not inclusion that amounts to a companion pet tagging along with its master, but real, "I have a reason to be here," inclusion.

  8. #88
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saravis View Post
    Interesting that you say its not on those who've chosen to learn it because it is on them to teach the newbies that want to learn.
    Guess no one has ever beaten fot or any shadowfail quests yet because they were new and no one could teach people them. No point in making new content everyone, it can never ever be beat.

  9. #89
    2016 DDO Players Council Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saravis View Post
    Not really. In the maze someone is piking on a lever, there's no choice in that matter. There's no reason for more than one person to do the obstacle course and same with the water part, unless you're planning on killing the mobs, which I've never seen done. There's also no reason for more than one person to do the doors. So while a player can tag along for any of those and pretend that he's participating, he's really not.

    I like the Crucible, when I'm actually doing something in it. When its someone else, its just boring. If it wants to be a group quest it needs to be redesigned to include all the players. The maze needs to be redesigned so that a player isn't just sitting at a lever after he's used it, increase the mobs to account for increased participation. The obstacle course could either be redesigned to make use of more players or have something for those who aren't running it. For the water part you could either have an alternate path for those who have trouble with the fan, though challenging in a different way, or there could be a lever after the fan that can turn it off, so someone still has to pass through it. Then increase the amount of mobs in the water part to make it harder for just one person to get the item.
    if you consider piking to mean you have to stand in one spot for a minute while someone grabs the crest and than running over to the next wheel to do the same thing and than again for what should be max 3 minutes, than sure you are piking. the timed run for the horn takes less than 30 seconds, so i guess that's piking too? if this is your definition of piking than we do this in almost every quest that makes you stop to pull a lever or open a door or pass gears through the bars.

  10. #90
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    Are you for real? I quoted directly from your post what I was calling a load of manure: "Then youre doing it wrong, every single time you run the quest because you dont need to pike in that quest, ever." And: "The idea that one person does portions of the quest while everyone else pikes is borne of people feeling that specific archtypes (usually evasion with high reflex) are needed in order to do it, and wanting to complete as quickly as possible therefore sending only the most favorable archtype in. "
    I was the one who posted first. You quoted my post and called it a load of manure. Its right there for any objective viewer to read.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    There was nothing in what I quoted, either time, about the saga list.

    I've already provided TWO direct quotes saying I am fine with Crucible being in the GH saga."
    If youre agreeing with me that it should be on the saga list, then you shouldnt be carrying on criticizing my posts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    I don't know what your problem is, but I DO know that I am done trying to have a discussion with someone who either can't read or has some pathological need to misrepresent someone else's viewpoint despite clear, simple English making very clear what those views are.
    Right on tiime folks, this train is never late. Cant refute with facts, so it gets turned into a personal rant complete with accusations of not being able to read and a medical diagnosis of patholoical behavior. Cute.

    How about reading what I actually typed, and replying to it in the context it was actually typed. This is how civilized adults have a discussion, even when they disagree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    IJust to be clear once again: AT NO POINT DID I ASK THAT ANYTHING RELATED TO CRUCIBLE BE NERFED. And with that, welcome to the bozo bin.
    Good, perhaps we can save that kitten before its too late.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  11. #91
    Community Member Saravis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Guess no one has ever beaten fot or any shadowfail quests yet because they were new and no one could teach people them. No point in making new content everyone, it can never ever be beat.
    Wow you're way out in left field, I'm not talking learning runs, I'm talking learning while in a group that knows what its doing. So are you saying its perfectly fine for a newbie to make his learning run in a group without it being up to the group?

    "Hey guys, can someone come back and grab my soul stone? No? Ok, I'm just going to release and reenter, sorry about the xp loss."

  12. #92
    2016 DDO Players Council Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saravis View Post
    It only takes one time to learn it, what about the rest of the time? Furthermore, that's up to the group if its willing to risk difficulties that comes up with a newbie learning and up to the runner if he's willing to teach the newbie. Interesting that you say its not on those who've chosen to learn it because it is on them to teach the newbies that want to learn.





    It only takes one person to pull a lever. It only takes one person to grab an item. The other players can tag along, but for what purpose? Again as I said, you can pretend that you're participating, but you aren't. If you grab the item and the other player doesn't, there was no reason for him to be there. If he grabs the item and you don't, there's no reason for you to be there. It has nothing to do with choosing to be included, it has everything to do with having a reason to be included. The quest needs to be redesigned to include all players. Not inclusion that amounts to a companion pet tagging along with its master, but real, "I have a reason to be here," inclusion.
    you can take turns. alternate responsibility than you can feel like you are important in the quest. last i checked, there are mobs all over the place in the quest that you fight, even ones guarding the crest. you can also take it upon yourself to handle the bigger job of doing the swim or manning the wheel that changes the water flow or calling out the wheel turns. if others don't like that, than you can put up your own lfm saying that everyone can be included in completing the quest and not feel like a tagalong.

  13. #93
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saravis View Post
    Wow you're way out in left field, I'm not talking learning runs, I'm talking learning while in a group that knows what its doing. So are you saying its perfectly fine for a newbie to make his learning run in a group without it being up to the group?

    "Hey guys, can someone come back and grab my soul stone? No? Ok, I'm just going to release and reenter, sorry about the xp loss."
    What prevented them from running normal and not being a drain on the group?

  14. #94
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    Sagas are optional and provide two ways to skip a quest within them. Because of this, then yes, I think Crucible should be included. It IS part of the pack after all. I agree with the removing it from flagging. When releasing something that becomes the new endgame, such as eGH, the last thing you want to do is have a dead pack, which is exactly what would happen. People just wouldn't bother with it if Crucible was involved. I know the feeling, it's why I don't ever do Necro III.

  15. #95

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    the entire point of a saga is completing all the quests -.- this game is becoming more and more boring with all the easy buttons. I've been taking a lot more breaks recently because it's getting really boring to level up.

    if you want 'learning' runs on argo send me a tell I can complete the quest in 15minutes on elite.

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    Only by the upper echelon of players. The rest of us like to play too, terribly sorry about that. Which in the past meant piking while someone with great skill, experience and/or a compatible build did the swim.

    I'm glad I don't have to do it again unless I want to. It's a poorly designed quest that shouldn't gate a bunch of other content, and Turbine made the right call removing it from the flagging list... especially when they made GH epic.
    Poorly designed quest? What planet are you being voted off of? It's easily one of the best designed quests in the game - it requires a bit of thought and you can get noticeably better if you put the effort in to learn in.

    A quest where repetitive waves of mobs test how many pots you've got isn't good design.

    If you join my Crucible run then while I do the swim, you're off getting ransack in the test of agility. The maze takes 5 minutes max with people performing their allocated roles and we're in and out in before you know it. If you run it like that then people shouldn't feel like they're not contributing.

  17. #97
    2016 DDO Players Council Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AidanRyuko View Post
    the entire point of a saga is completing all the quests -.- this game is becoming more and more boring with all the easy buttons. I've been taking a lot more breaks recently because it's getting really boring to level up.

    if you want 'learning' runs on argo send me a tell I can complete the quest in 15minutes on elite.
    so you are saying you put effort into learning the quest and becoming a better player? how dare you!

  18. #98
    Community Member Saravis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    you can take turns. alternate responsibility than you can feel like you are important in the quest. last i checked, there are mobs all over the place in the quest that you fight, even ones guarding the crest. you can also take it upon yourself to handle the bigger job of doing the swim or manning the wheel that changes the water flow or calling out the wheel turns. if others don't like that, than you can put up your own lfm saying that everyone can be included in completing the quest and not feel like a tagalong.
    Alternating tends to be up to the group, if the leader is cool with alternating then that makes it less boring, though it still comes down to one person doing something while everybody else waits.

    I'm cool with the mobs, as generic as that is, its one of the few things in that quest that includes all players, which is partly why I suggested increasing them, along with adjusting the mechanics so that players aren't just waiting for someone else to do something. As for the mobs in the water part, most of the time players just sneak/rush in and grab the crest. There aren't enough of them, to be all that important.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    What prevented them from running normal and not being a drain on the group?
    I'm talking about wanting to run with a group. If you want to solo a learning run, go for it, all the power to you, but when you want to run with people as a newbie, your stuck with either doing nothing, at their mercy if they're willing for you to learn, or frustrating them with your goof ups. Once you've made your learning run, there's no reason for you to make the run, unless you're the runner. See, the issue comes down to running Crucible in a group; include the group.

  19. #99
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saravis View Post
    It only takes one time to learn it, what about the rest of the time? Furthermore, that's up to the group if its willing to risk difficulties that comes up with a newbie learning and up to the runner if he's willing to teach the newbie. Interesting that you say its not on those who've chosen to learn it because it is on them to teach the newbies that want to learn.
    Its on people to be their own advocate. This begins with running with like minded players. If the zergers ran with other zergers, and the immersion folks only ran with other people who want to advance slowly alot of these complaints on the boards would disappear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saravis View Post
    It only takes one person to pull a lever. It only takes one person to grab an item. The other players can tag along, but for what purpose?
    To learn and get better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saravis View Post
    Again as I said, you can pretend that you're participating, but you aren't.
    By your logic everyone should just be soloing.

    And everyone participates in crucible. Theres 2 parts where people can afk while one person does the heavy lifting. The rest of the quest, upwards of 95% of the material, is being run by everyone inside the zone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saravis View Post
    If you grab the item and the other player doesn't, there was no reason for him to be there. If he grabs the item and you don't, there's no reason for you to be there. It has nothing to do with choosing to be included, it has everything to do with having a reason to be included. The quest needs to be redesigned to include all players. Not inclusion that amounts to a companion pet tagging along with its master, but real, "I have a reason to be here," inclusion.
    The quest does include all players. One person throws a lever and everyone else advances to kill mobs, which gets done faster with more people. One person throws a lever and communicates which colors need to be turned how many times, and everyone else who is on a lever turns their color that amount. Everyone kills mobs, which would happen slower with one person.

    If you believe that only one person is ever needed, then you can make this case for 99% of the quests in this game. This means 99% of the game is as boring and as non participatory as what you have outlined here, because it only takes one person to do it. There are but a very few exceptions. Why are people singeling out crucible if this is the case? Because what you stated about participation isnt true, thats why.

    Learning and being ones own advocate to get better is indeed participating, but instead of participating, people prefer complaininng about having to participate. But they still feel entitled to the same rewards those who do participate get. So instead of simply chosing to not participate and forgoing the reward, they ask for the entire system to be altered so they can get the reward sans having to participate.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    Poorly designed quest? What planet are you being voted off of? It's easily one of the best designed quests in the game - it requires a bit of thought and you can get noticeably better if you put the effort in to learn in.
    Well, you may have missed it earlier in the thread when I described how I did in fact make an effort to learn it, and was pleased with myself for figuring out the swim. So no, the concept is not a foreign one to me. Of course, while I was doing that, the others were mostly.. standing around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    If you join my Crucible run then while I do the swim, you're off getting ransack in the test of agility. The maze takes 5 minutes max with people performing their allocated roles and we're in and out in before you know it. If you run it like that then people shouldn't feel like they're not contributing.
    If that had been typical of my experiences in running the quest over the last two years, I might have a different opinion of it.

    Unfortunately, it hasn't. But there's always the next time.

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