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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eistander View Post
    The flagging chain was Crucible'd once already, and because people don't actually want, you know, a challenge (a wizzy without insighful reflexes can do the swim with pots. On Elite. At level.). As it was mentioned previously, players have the option to skip possibly one of the best quests in the GH pack. Dang shame too.
    That's not the problem. It's the, up to, 5 other people sitting in a hallway waiting for that wizzy to do that is the problem. Simply adding increasingly powerful wave of mobs that need to be fought off during the trials would make the quest both harder by adding urgency to the task and better as it gives the rest something to do. That's the design problem with crucible.

  2. #42
    Community Member Bunker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gywiden View Post
    Okay, I wanted to get the Heroic GH saga done. However, I've never been able to successfully run the Crucible. I've tried doing the solo-have hire pull valves thing ddowiki says is possible--I get stuck. I asked my best friend on the game, he was insulted that I even asked him to run it (I even suggested casual, he declined). I asked a guy who was running GH walkups, he was okay doing it. Everyone wanted Elite (prob because of BB). As the game progressed everybody got depressed and gave up: one by one.

    How is somebody actually supposed to get this done? I mean, not that people don't succeed. I'm just saying, it seems like their is a high rate of failure and depression/tension associated with the quest. It was dropped from flagging; if it usually just makes people point fingers and get angry, insulted, depressed, etc., is it really a good idea to make it mandatory for a new feature?

    Just a thought.
    1. If best friend is insulted, you need to get a new best friend.

    2. I find the people point fingers and get angry, insulted, depressed, ect....usually all comes from the same 1 person in the group. It isn't the quest, it is the player.

    3. Crucible is optional, as well as sagas.

    4. If anyone thinks this is a good idea, spend the 5 AS and skip it. The system is already there to allow you to skip it every time you want a saga reward.

    -Bunk

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    Well the Crucible is meant to be a test and each lever and wheel turning part is part of it. I don't see Crucible and its tests to be a piking quest. The only time anyone stands around for any extended period of time is during the swim. Like I said in a post earlier, I ran elite Crucible last night with 3 evasion toons and the pure paladin did the swim almost flawlessly. And than after the quest was over most of us went back to the underwater chest.

    Crucible is only a piking quest if you choose not to participate and let only 1 player do all the work. Only you make yourself the piker.
    The last time I suggested I go along on the swim, I was soundly voted down for making a stupid, risk increasing suggestion. Same for the trap run. I've seen the maze take 45 mins and the trap run 20. So, how much standing around is all up to whomever is chosen to run the trials. 3 hour completions, where most spend the majority of that time twiddling their thumbs aren't unheard of.

  4. #44
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    I'd would not complain if it was still required to flag.

    It is a great quest. Learn it and you'll love it

  5. #45
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    The last time I suggested I go along on the swim, I was soundly voted down for making a stupid, risk increasing suggestion. Same for the trap run. I've seen the maze take 45 mins and the trap run 20. So, how much standing around is all up to whomever is chosen to run the trials. 3 hour completions, where most spend the majority of that time twiddling their thumbs aren't unheard of.
    /shrug that's up to you. I once spent 45 minutes in the maze trying to figure it out with 3 other players and had a blast doing it. I would say you werent in an open minded group and one of the few players left in the game that actually cares about missing out on -10%. Those kind of players are narrow minded and the kind that think you need a rogue in quests for traps and cleric for heals. No thanks. I'll pass on a group like that and do the timed test on my character that has no evasion so I can move in to the next fun quest.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    A piking curve would be a better way of putting it. Crucible's problem is that it is basically a solo quest with a requirement for level pullers and wheel turners. If they removed the need to drag others along to mostly pike, it would be a great quest. Piking should be a play style choice, not a requirement.

    That said, I do believe it belongs as part of the saga.
    This is my view as well. The only "challenge" with the Crucible before was finding an LFM led by someone willing to do it. Then it was an hour of trying to stay awake. I hate VON5 almost as much for similar reasons, though it's not as bad.

    Funny story. A couple of weeks ago I found such an LFM, and I'm a rogue now and there was a rogue icon up with 5 other people so I said "cool" and hit the LFM. Only when we got to the swim part did I realize that I'm the rogue and they're going to want me to do the swim. And my character is an assassin, Int-based, with fairly mediocre saves for the class.

    I told them I'd never done it before, and apologized for not realizing the significance of the rogue icon when I hit the LFM. They were all very nice about it, tried to describe the swim to me, cast a couple of buffs. There was really nobody else in the group that could do it and I'm AWFUL with twitch stuff so I figured I was about to let 5 people down. I started, went slow, got most of the way but then the directions they gave me made no sense, I couldn't get to where I was supposed to. I was able to exit, so I got through most of it without dying, which shocked me. Tried again and the same thing happened -- turned out someone was telling me to go west when I should have gone east. Went in for the THIRD time and managed to get to the horn, solo all the mobs and get out. And I even went a fourth time to get a soulstone of someone who was trying to guide me but didn't have the saves for it.

    That was one of the most fun times I've had in DDO -- and the only time I've enjoyed Crucible. Next life I will no doubt be back to the biggest challenge being not nodding off.

    Quests that can only be completed by certain classes or builds, and where there's nothing for the others to do while they do it, are poorly designed and the more optional they are, the better.

  7. #47
    Community Member Bunker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post

    Quests that can only be completed by certain classes or builds, and where there's nothing for the others to do while they do it, are poorly designed and the more optional they are, the better.
    Any quest could fall under that description. Aside from a handful of quests in the game, raids and such, most quests can be completed by 1 person while 5 others stand at the entrance. Crucible included.

    Crucible along with all other non-raid quests can be completed by anyone of any class in game.

    When it comes to the swim, reflex saves are simply a crutch. Avoiding the spikes requires no reflex save.

    -Bunk

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunker View Post
    Crucible along with all other non-raid quests can be completed by anyone of any class in game.
    Only by the upper echelon of players. The rest of us like to play too, terribly sorry about that. Which in the past meant piking while someone with great skill, experience and/or a compatible build did the swim.

    I'm glad I don't have to do it again unless I want to. It's a poorly designed quest that shouldn't gate a bunch of other content, and Turbine made the right call removing it from the flagging list... especially when they made GH epic.
    Last edited by Qaliya; 10-04-2013 at 12:32 PM.

  9. #49
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunker View Post
    Any quest could fall under that description. Aside from a handful of quests in the game, raids and such, most quests can be completed by 1 person while 5 others stand at the entrance. Crucible included.

    Crucible along with all other non-raid quests can be completed by anyone of any class in game.

    When it comes to the swim, reflex saves are simply a crutch. Avoiding the spikes requires no reflex save.

    -Bunk
    Also the 1 thing that can help avoid those spikes that rarely ever gets used is the wheel that changes the water flow. This is so much easier for any class, especially if you have no evasion or not that great with the swim.

  10. #50
    Community Member Bunker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    Only by the upper echelon of players. The rest of us like to play too, terribly sorry about that. Which in the past meant piking while someone with great skill, experience and/or a compatible build did the swim.

    I'm glad I don't have to do it again unless I want to. It's a poorly designed quest that shouldn't gate a bunch of other content, and Turbine made the right call removing it from the flagging list... especially when they made GH epic.
    From what I read, you simply say it is a poorly designed quest because you don't like it. Not really a strong point for the population, but if it works for, stick with it.

    The great thing is The Crucible is now 100% optional for ALL players in the game. It is not required for flagging, and it is not required for sagas.

    IE. I don't like running Beyond the Rift so I "choose" to skip it when completing An Eveningstar saga. I won't say that Beyond the Rift is a "poorly designed" quest simply because I don't like it. I use the option that we have been given to skip it to receive a saga reward.

    You see the difference

    -Bunk

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    Also the 1 thing that can help avoid those spikes that rarely ever gets used is the wheel that changes the water flow. This is so much easier for any class, especially if you have no evasion or not that great with the swim.
    What is really great, is you can use a hireling/pet to stay at the wheel under the water, have them hit the wheel, you swim, and it is also increasingly easy.

    -Bunk

  12. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    Only by the upper echelon of players. The rest of us like to play too, terribly sorry about that. Which in the past meant piking while someone with great skill, experience and/or a compatible build did the swim.

    I'm glad I don't have to do it again unless I want to. It's a poorly designed quest that shouldn't gate a bunch of other content, and Turbine made the right call removing it from the flagging list... especially when they made GH epic.



    having hand/eye coordination is not a skill reserved for "upper echelon players" thats a ridiculous statement.

    I understand that finding a crucible group that is willing to let folks practice the swim is hard to do, but its not impossible.

    My first crucible run was in the neighborhood of 200 minutes as I recall. we dinged that swim multiple times. released and came back. eventually, we all made it through.

    yes. Its easier to just let one person go do it. but thats exactly why so many people say "its impossible" to too hard" nowadays. they never had to do it so they just assumed someone would always be there to do it for em...
    °º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸,ø¤°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸A R C H A N G E L S °º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸,ø¤°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸
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  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunker View Post
    From what I read, you simply say it is a poorly designed quest because you don't like it.
    Then you should try reading again. As I already said, it's a poorly designed quest because it is not completable by most players unless they have very specific builds, and because its design leads directly to long periods of people standing around twiddling their thumbs. Neither of those is true of Beyond the Rift.

    Crucible is like the old joke about being an airline pilot: long periods of boredom punctuated by moments of terror.

    I don't have a problem with it being part of the saga, which I already said. It was a horrible flagging quest and it was a smart move on Turbine's part to remove it when they launched epic GH.
    Last edited by Qaliya; 10-04-2013 at 12:47 PM.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    Only by the upper echelon of players. The rest of us like to play too, terribly sorry about that. Which in the past meant piking while someone with great skill, experience and/or a compatible build did the swim.

    I'm glad I don't have to do it again unless I want to. It's a poorly designed quest that shouldn't gate a bunch of other content, and Turbine made the right call removing it from the flagging list... especially when they made GH epic.

    I believe that this opinion is what is shared by the majority of players. I myself think this is a great quest, as other posters have also said. But that is not the point.

    It wasn't removed from flagging because a few forum posters complained it was too hard. It was most likely removed because someone somewhere at turbine read a report that showed the quest is not run as often as some of the others in that pack. And since the pack was to be epicified (new word?) with the potential of added revenue, a decision was made to change the flagging mechanism to attract more to buying and/or playing the pack.

    I think it's great that it was made as an option now for sagas, and that the ddo majority that doesn't like the quest has options to skip it if desired. Or learn it. The options are there.

    ...J
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  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunker View Post
    From what I read, you simply say it is a poorly designed quest because you don't like it. Not really a strong point for the population, but if it works for, stick with it.
    It's flaws have been pointed out quite well, with the general response being along the lines of "learn it so the others end up being the ones who are piking".

    The great thing is The Crucible is now 100% optional for ALL players in the game. It is not required for flagging, and it is not required for sagas.
    This I agree with.

  16. #56
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    Then you should try reading again. As I already said, it's a poorly designed quest because it is not completable by most players unless they have very specific builds, and because its design leads directly to long periods of people standing around twiddling their thumbs. Neither of those is true of Beyond the Rift.

    I don't have a problem with it being part of the saga, which I already said. It was a horrible flagging quest and it was a smart move on Turbine's part to remove it when they launched epic GH.
    You should try reading some of the other posts, like mine that say any class is capable of doing any part in the quest and the longest anyone "twiddles" their thumbs is the swim. Only you make yourself a piker. First you have to understand the concept of Crucible and why it was designed the way it was. Crucible is every bit like D&D.

  17. #57
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    I think people miss the true beauty of Crucible, in that the time it takes to kill the three bosses is a fraction of the time it takes for the announcer to actually introduce the three bosses.


    That never fails to get a chuckle out of me...

  18. #58
    Community Member Bunker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    Then you should try reading again. As I already said, it's a poorly designed quest because it is not completable by most players unless they have very specific builds, and because its design leads directly to long periods of people standing around twiddling their thumbs. Neither of those is true of Beyond the Rift.

    Crucible is like the old joke about being an airline pilot: long periods of boredom punctuated by moments of terror.

    I don't have a problem with it being part of the saga, which I already said. It was a horrible flagging quest and it was a smart move on Turbine's part to remove it when they launched epic GH.
    That is simply an assumption from your point of view. You assume that it is not possible by most players unless they have specific builds. And if your group chooses to all swim together, they can. The only waiting period is the swim, and that is only for a period of 1-2 minutes. All other parts are done as a group.

    My Beyond the Rift seems to be more related to your example than you think.

    -Bunk

  19. #59
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    First, going along with the swim in a PUG-ed Crucible is a bad idea. If you die, the rescue attempts by the rest of the group may end up as a party wipe. So twiddling your thumbs while someone who actually KNOW the swim is just being smart. You want to do it, run it with some friends on normal or casual.

    Second, I think that making Crucible a flagging quest again is a sound idea. I was not all that pleased when they decided to wimp out for the sake of solo players.

  20. #60
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamnJD View Post
    I believe that this opinion is what is shared by the majority of players. I myself think this is a great quest, as other posters have also said. But that is not the point.

    It wasn't removed from flagging because a few forum posters complained it was too hard. It was most likely removed because someone somewhere at turbine read a report that showed the quest is not run as often as some of the others in that pack. And since the pack was to be epicified (new word?) with the potential of added revenue, a decision was made to change the flagging mechanism to attract more to buying and/or playing the pack.

    I think it's great that it was made as an option now for sagas, and that the ddo majority that doesn't like the quest has options to skip it if desired. Or learn it. The options are there.

    ...J
    Before Crucible was crucibled, it was a requirement for Tor. It was run quite often actually just because of that, even if players just ran it once for flag. A more likely scenario was that some players thought only evasionists could run the quest and did all the work and most couldn't/wouldn't solo it. Tor is another good reason for this line of thinking. Some couldn't solo it and getting blooded was a requirement. Players had trouble soloing the dragons on elite.

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