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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    You should try reading some of the other posts, like mine that say any class is capable of doing any part in the quest and the longest anyone "twiddles" their thumbs is the swim.
    You can say whatever you want -- about yourself. I would not come close to completing that swim without evasion.

    And the swim can take a long time. If I want to be bored, I'll clean out the garage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    Only you make yourself a piker.
    Pat answers are so easy, aren't they? If I can't do the swim I have two choices: pike alive or pike dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    Crucible is every bit like D&D.
    That's funny because I was going to say that the main reason I don't like it is that it is so completely removed from D&D. Maybe you ran campaigns where success or failure depended on hand-eye coordination and reflexes, but I sure never did...
    Last edited by Qaliya; 10-04-2013 at 02:04 PM.

  2. #62
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    I think people miss the true beauty of Crucible, in that the time it takes to kill the three bosses is a fraction of the time it takes for the announcer to actually introduce the three bosses.


    That never fails to get a chuckle out of me...
    I remember when everyone had to surround Daggertooth. Now we just pick one and see who can kill one of the end bosses first. /sigh I miss the old days.

  3. #63
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    You can say whatever you want -- about yourself. I would not come close to competing that swim without evasion.

    And the swim can take a long time. If I want to be bored, I'll clean out the garage.



    Pat answers are so easy, aren't they? If I can't do the swim I have two choices: pike alive or pike dead.



    That's funny because I was going to say that the main reason I don't like it is that it is so completely removed from D&D. Maybe you ran campaigns where success or failure depended on hand-eye coordination and reflexes, but I sure never did...
    One person at the wheel that changes the water flow while you swim. Communicate with each other when you need the wheel turned again. Its all gravy than and you just coast through. You do have to actually move up or down though so, does that count as difficult hand eye coordination?

    I'm sorry you won't make the effort to be a better player, but its not my fault you are not willing to try.

  4. #64
    Community Member schelsullivan's Avatar
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    I remember running it for the 1st or 2nd time and being I alone had evasion, I was "elected" to the be the swimmer. Was very tough swim and fight to get the horn, but when I succeeded, I felt like a real DDO hero. The group was really happy and I was quite proud of myself. Nothing beast that feeling and being needed and successful in a team effort. On the other hand I remember the apprehension I felt as well. No one wants to let a group down on a such a long quest. I think hosting pugs with "no pressure, first timers welcome" attitude helps a lot.

    Also I wasnt aware this quest was soloable, with the scarcity of pugs lately, revisiting it solo sounds like a great challenge! Watch out Crucible, here I come!

    Edit:
    Oh Im on board with leaving part of the saga
    Last edited by schelsullivan; 10-04-2013 at 02:21 PM.

  5. #65
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    I think it comes down to one fundamental question: should Sagas be soloable?

    -If yes, then Crucible should not be part of it - its not effectively soloable, it requires too many "non solo" type mechanics: funky hireling controls where you can get stuck if you lose focus, extraordinary traps that make completion effectively a game of chance more than skill. Its not just a question of "learning the quest" - that's true for quests like Rainbow or Coal Chamber, where a lot of the challenge IS just knowing where to go, what to get, how to solve the puzzle, how to avoid the really tough fight, etc. "Learning the quest" is not the same as "learning how to properly meta-game the quest".

    Crucible is clearly "designed" to be a multiplayer quest, even if it is technically soloable, just like other "technically soloable but intended for group" quests like Xorian Cipher. Crucible doesn't even give you the "extreme challenge" warning. That's especially true with so much focus on BB now...at-level, even if you wanted to run the quest on Normal just to get it cleared (and True Elitist be damned), you still couldn't since that would break your BB streak.

    -If no, then that's fine. I don't expect everything in the game, especially optional things, to be available to soloists, ie raid loot. However, since the GH raid ISNT a part of the Saga (though it well could be), I got the impression that it WAS the intention that the Sagas were supposed to be soloable. If thats that case, I do think the Saga NPC should at least warn you somewhere that the Saga will be extremely difficult to complete without help, so it "officially acknowledged" that the Saga is intended to be group-required content.

  6. #66
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catteras View Post
    "Everyone is playing a different game." (Quote stolen from static group member.)

    Correct. Not everyone wants a challenge. There is nothing wrong with that. Everyone has different preferences. The superior tone of scoffing "Some people dont want a challenge" does get old...

    "Best" is a matter of personal opinion. Everyone has quests that he likes and hates. I will bet that any two people who compares their lists will find differences. Some people love the shavarath quests. I detest them. The raid itself is great, though. I am sure others disagree...

    There is no need to force people to play quests they dont like just because a handful of players deem them the "best" quests in the game. There is always another handful that thinks those same quests are the worst quests.

    Everyone is playing a different game.

    My issue with Crucible was not the difficulty per se. It was the reliance on a specific toon to do many parts of the quest: high reflex with evasion. Yes, it can be done without that, but it takes a good player to do it. What this resulted in was sitting with the lfm up forever trying to get a swimmer. I agree, not the best quest to pug, but many people have no other option. If i was on a toon that could do the swim, then i didnt mind the quest because i knew we would complete. However, when i have to sit for an hour to fill the lfm, and then after an hour in a pug we wipe and half the group bails, this causes one to really loathe the quest. Not because of the quest in and of itself. Because of the pain in the arse it is just to complete.
    If you don't want to have a difficult play session there is this difficulty setting called normal. I remember doing the swim for the first time on an elven palemaster with gimp hp and having no problems because of my aura being enough on normal.

    It's harder on elite and should be, it's only peoples foolish insistance on bravery bonus when they aren't ready for a challenge that makes crucible hard.

  7. #67
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    No one NEEDS to pike. More than one person can do the swim, and in fact its fun to teach it / learn it that way. One person can turn the lever while everyone else jumps in and swims.

    The idea that one person does portions of the quest while everyone else pikes is borne of people feeling that specific archtypes (usually evasion with high reflex) are needed in order to do it, and wanting to complete as quickly as possible therefore sending only the most favorable archtype in.

    Any idea that this is the only way to do it, is a myth. No one has to pike at all whatsoever.

    The complaints about crubible step from the idea that minimal effort should acheive maximum reward, similar to other complaints - ala those who tout that RWTD should be complete-able by first timers on elite at BB level, and think failure should be 0% on the hardest difficulty.

    The tradition still holds true that the toughest content is not beaten in game, but on the forums by having it nerfed or taken off requirement lists. When I see these people berating others in other threads about how they should enjoy playing the entire game, I grin knowingly in understanding that they dont either - it just looks good to say so on paper. If they did, crucible would still be a flagging quest and there would be no talk of removing it from saga requirements.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    No one NEEDS to pike. More than one person can do the swim, and in fact its fun to teach it / learn it that way. One person can turn the lever while everyone else jumps in and swims.

    The idea that one person does portions of the quest while everyone else pikes is borne of people feeling that specific archtypes (usually evasion with high reflex) are needed in order to do it, and wanting to complete as quickly as possible therefore sending only the most favorable archtype in.
    No, it's mostly borne of players not seeing the point of having to do it again to recover soul stones unnecessarily. The quest basically gives two options, one boring and the other foolish.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The idea that one person does portions of the quest while everyone else pikes is borne of people feeling that specific archtypes (usually evasion with high reflex) are needed in order to do it, and wanting to complete as quickly as possible therefore sending only the most favorable archtype in.
    This is a load of manure. It has nothing to do with "feelings about archetypes". It has to do with watching what happens every single time I run the quest.

    You guys like it? More power to you. I play a game to have fun and that is not fun and I'm quite happy not to be excluded from a bunch of other content because I don't want to run it. If it makes you feel better about yourselves to look down on my "abilities as a player", I really couldn't care less. I'm not here to impress anybody. I'm starting to think that what some of you liked most about Crucible was not the quest but rather the fact that some people hated it or weren't very good at doing it but were forced to anyway. In which case, I'm even more glad they removed it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    ...one boring and the other foolish.
    Which, coincidentally, somewhat describe the arguments attempting to convince people to enjoy something they don't enjoy.
    Last edited by Qaliya; 10-04-2013 at 03:04 PM.

  10. #70
    Community Member Gywiden's Avatar
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    Well, looks like you are all for keeping it, and I'm convinced. Just need to find the right people to run it with (looks like I'll run it with Pho3nix at some point) .


    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    However, since the GH raid ISNT a part of the Saga (though it well could be), I got the impression that it WAS the intention that the Sagas were supposed to be soloable. If thats that case, I do think the Saga NPC should at least warn you somewhere that the Saga will be extremely difficult to complete without help, so it "officially acknowledged" that the Saga is intended to be group-required content.
    Maybe, although the quests within the saga already say their difficulties when you look them up. I'll admit this is a bit arbitrary--for example, I can't see how Feast or Famine is any easier than A Cry for Help.
    Last edited by Gywiden; 10-04-2013 at 03:09 PM.

  11. #71
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    This is a load of manure. It has nothing to do with "feelings about archetypes". It has to do with watching what happens every single time I run the quest.
    Then youre doing it wrong, every single time you run the quest because you dont need to pike in that quest, ever. If its boring for you because youre piking, then youre not excersising your option to play through the quest like you could be. You should not be attempting to get it nerfed due to enforcing the way you play it on everyone else, or assuming everyone else plays it like you do and pikes while one person does the heavy lifting in the swim/trap room.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    You guys like it? More power to you. I play a game to have fun and that is not fun and I'm quite happy not to be excluded from a bunch of other content because I don't want to run it. If it makes you feel better about yourselves to look down on my "abilities as a player", I really couldn't care less. I'm not here to impress anybody.
    If you dont want to run it, dont. Just stop asking for nerfs to enforce your playstyle preference on everyone else. Difficult content should be beaten in game rather than on the forums complaining everything you dont like should be nerfed.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  12. #72
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    No, it's mostly borne of players not seeing the point of having to do it again to recover soul stones unnecessarily. The quest basically gives two options, one boring and the other foolish.
    Then dont run it. People need to stop feeling entitled to the rewards running it brings if they dont want to run it.

    People want elite saga rewards, but they dont want to run quests int he saga to get them.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Then youre doing it wrong, every single time you run the quest because you dont need to pike in that quest, ever.
    It was a load of manure when you said it the first time, and it's not getting any less manury through repetition.

    I could barely do it with evasion and improved evasion, and trying to do it on, say, a barbarian, would just be inconsiderate to my team members.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Just stop asking for nerfs to enforce your playstyle preference on everyone else.
    Provide a quote from me where I "asked for nerfs", or kindly refrain from misrepresenting me. It's getting old.

  14. #74
    Community Member Avenging_Angel's Avatar
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    I can't solo every single quest in the game with zero effort?! OH NOES!!

    It prevents me from getting an extra optional reward if I don't find a party for it?! FIX NAO!!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bonulino View Post
    No matter what you post, there is always someone who responds with something like "Unless you are gimped, you should be able to do this with your eyes closed and one hand tied behind your back." It gets a little tiresome.

  15. #75
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    It was a load of manure when you said it the first time, and it's not getting any less manury through repetition.

    I could barely do it with evasion and improved evasion, and trying to do it on, say, a barbarian, would just be inconsiderate to my team members.



    Provide a quote from me where I "asked for nerfs", or kindly refrain from misrepresenting me. It's getting old.
    You have been told several times how it can be accomplished. You refuse to listen to advice on how to do it. Maybe we should crucible Waterworks too because you have to time the acid traps to turn the levers to get it turned off. Are you the kind of player that won't run a quest because there are traps unless there is a trapper in the group? You know, you also can drop down to hard or normal difficulty to complete quests to make it easier on you and you wouldn't maybe feel like you need X class to help you complete it. If i had the same line of thinking as you i wouldnt have accomplished as much as i have in this game because i made the effort to be better and not rely on any class. Only you are holding yourself back.

  16. #76
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    It was a load of manure when you said it the first time, and it's not getting any less manury through repetition.
    Each nerf request you post, god kills a kitten. 2 kittens in one week. Please think of the kittens.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    I could barely do it with evasion and improved evasion, and trying to do it on, say, a barbarian, would just be inconsiderate to my team members.
    So you told me it had nothing to do with evasion archtypes in your previous post, then waffle here and talk about the very archtype I referred to and imply that if you couldnt do it on that very archtype, a non evasion trying to would be inconsiderate. LOL. I have an idea, run it on hard or normal. Its what we are supposed to do when we arent ready for elite. We all did it when we were learning.

    Its more of a test of patience and preparation than anything else. But instead of learning it, youll just ask for it to be nerfed out of your way so you can get elite saga rewards without having to run the elite saga.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    Provide a quote from me where I "asked for nerfs", or kindly refrain from misrepresenting me. It's getting old.
    Youve been asking for cocoon to be nerfed. You want me to quote an entire thread? Theres no misrepresenting you whatsoever. Perfectly accurate accounting of the situation is not misrepresentation. You want elite saga rewards, play through the elite saga.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  17. #77
    Community Member Sarzor's Avatar
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    Too bad you aren't on Orien. I've been leading runs the past few days while I've been working on my sagas.

    I feel that by having it in the saga, more people will learn how to do it, and it'll be run regularly again.

    The swim part is easy too on the right toon. Carry a stack of pots, and have mid-30s reflex and evasion. Improved evasion helps too. If you get hit, there are plenty of safe-spots where you won't be swept along in the current, and can chug pots.

    That being said, I've run it on a non-evasion cleric. I throw on aura before going, and every time I get hit, I stop and chug some potions.

    Alternately, bring a hire. I know they used to not be hit by the spikes, so that may still be the case.

    That being said, I support Crucible in the saga. Sagas are optional, and the Crucible is a very well done quest. It has an epic feel to it, which many other dungeons do not. It's large, it's complicated. You complete it, and you feel like you completed something. If someone doesn't want to run it, that's fine. I put it there with In The Flesh, where it takes a decent group to complete. It's more than a "kill 5 bears and get gold" quest.

  18. #78
    Community Member rest's Avatar
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    I like The Crucible. I was a little sad when they decided to make it a walkup instead of required for flagging. However making it a walkup doesn't mean I can't run it anymore. I can, and still do, every single life on elite. I'm Bobby Brown. It's my prerogative.

    If you don't enjoy the quest, or think it's stupid or it's too hard or you have to have X class with Y save or truly don't like it, don't run it. Simple. It's not required for flagging, it's not required for the saga.

    Easy peasey.

  19. #79
    Community Member Saravis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    Crucible is only a piking quest if you choose not to participate and let only 1 player do all the work. Only you make yourself the piker.
    Not really. In the maze someone is piking on a lever, there's no choice in that matter. There's no reason for more than one person to do the obstacle course and same with the water part, unless you're planning on killing the mobs, which I've never seen done. There's also no reason for more than one person to do the doors. So while a player can tag along for any of those and pretend that he's participating, he's really not.

    I like the Crucible, when I'm actually doing something in it. When its someone else, its just boring. If it wants to be a group quest it needs to be redesigned to include all the players. The maze needs to be redesigned so that a player isn't just sitting at a lever after he's used it, increase the mobs to account for increased participation. The obstacle course could either be redesigned to make use of more players or have something for those who aren't running it. For the water part you could either have an alternate path for those who have trouble with the fan, though challenging in a different way, or there could be a lever after the fan that can turn it off, so someone still has to pass through it. Then increase the amount of mobs in the water part to make it harder for just one person to get the item.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Each nerf request you post, god kills a kitten. 2 kittens in one week. Please think of the kittens.
    Grow up. I didn't ask for anything to be nerfed here.

    Since you appear to either have difficulty looking at what people actually say rather than what you imagine they said, or you like misrepresenting them on purpose, let me help you out:

    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    I think the current solution is a good compromise: those who hate it aren't locked out of other content, while those who do it get a decent reward, and those who do the rest of the saga have a way to skip it. Win-win all around.
    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    I don't have a problem with it being part of the saga, which I already said.
    There are no kittens here except perhaps for some that may be blocking your screen so you can't read it properly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Theres no misrepresenting you whatsoever. Perfectly accurate accounting of the situation is not misrepresentation. You want elite saga rewards, play through the elite saga.
    I said, not once but twice, that I supported keeping the Crucible in the GH saga. Despite that, you claim that I want something nerfed with respect to Crucible.

    I ask you to quote where I want something nerfed, you bring up a different thread to try to change the subject, and then repeat again an implication that I want the saga changed, when I said I didn't. The quotes are just above.

    That's not "perfectly accurate accounting of the situation". It's being blatantly dishonest.

    You know, a couple of weeks ago on a channel your name came up. Someone made a negative remark and I was the only one to stand up for you. I'm starting to understand the reactions I got to my comment.

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