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  1. #61
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magiker View Post
    Not true. Zefjoe has on many occasions spoken in favor of it. Perhaps he has recently changed his mind?
    You could be correct, but I don't know if his desire is nearly as great as yours in this regard.


    Quote Originally Posted by Magiker View Post
    Also, you yourself on more than occasion admitted being guilty of a strong tendency to zerg.
    Mostly tounge-in-cheek and self depracating. I did have to learn to restrain myself at first but by level 3ish I was getting pretty good at holding back until the right time.


    Quote Originally Posted by Magiker View Post
    Also, while rogues do have a higher death chance due to traps...isn't that why an admin item is allowed?
    I haven't seen any word on admin items in STORM v2.


    Quote Originally Posted by Magiker View Post
    And I disagree that front-line types are more vulnerable than arcanes, unless you're talking about a non-tank frontliner that makes heavy use of intimidate.
    I'm talking about a melee without +5 icy burst of awesomeness weapons able to kill elite mobs in a single blow while sporting uber armor, max stat boosters, high AC and PRR. Melee types in low-magic do not kill mobs quickly and have a high chance of taking hits with low PRR and less health than their uber DDO cousins.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magiker View Post
    1) +4 to ability points (including the primary casting stat for arcane types), which translates into more SP and better DCs (an advantage that is more relevant in a gear-restricted setting)

    2) innate spell resistance (i.e. that cannot be replicated by the free feat that humans get).
    So a 32 point build should not be allowed? Also you assume all Drow will want to be arcanes. Spell Resist is nice, but so are the human free feat and extra skill points.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magiker View Post
    My experience has shown me, in this type of playstyle, that a caster's best defense is aggro mgt. Any AoE will get you dead quick, especially if you cannot get the spell DC high enough to actually kill those affected.

    Regardless, a sorc has twice the spellpoints of a wizard and that becomes very telling in an SP restricted playstyle.
    My inexperience and ineptness with arcanes leaves me to rely on you and others opinions on this matter.

  2. #62
    Community Member LeadHero5's Avatar
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    Default PnP rules vs perfect, fair, scaleable rules...

    Trying to come up with simple unchanging rules that will work for different races and classes from 1 to 20 levels seems like a bit of a reach. Pick rules that capture the spirit and let where that power takes you be part of the journey.

    Class and Race:
    I don't think that Drow or 32+ builds will be over powered if you roll the stats and then any left over build points must be allocated one each not in Con and not in the class primary stat. Do any of the prospective players have 32+? You are allowing Warforged not Helf or Horc. Not purchased classes are Arti, Druid, Monk, FVS.

    Restricting ML and gear count seems redundant. Grondley still has empty spots now (his hat is looks only and the bracers are for pranking(grease)) and level 5 x 2 is 10 ML, doesn't allow level 1 items in all spots.

    Wands, pots, scrolls:
    If you allow breaking crates, you're expecting the contents to be used; with limited chest access, wands and scrolls will accumulate very slowly. Keep and trade items but stay within the 1 tab allotment. Eternal wands (sigh) are right out. Scrolls are inscribed but will quickly fill up a pack. I'd add that if you can't use the wand or scroll 50% or better, you can't keep it to act as extra space for the casters. I like that the effect of limited storage will encourage the use of these items.

    I'll pass joining the group in favor of new players first.


    Originally posted by Aeryyn "I don't play this game for xp/min, I play for fun/hour. "

  3. #63
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post

    Mostly tounge-in-cheek and self depracating. I did have to learn to restrain myself at first but by level 3ish I was getting pretty good at holding back until the right time.

    To be fair you learned to restrain yourself pretty well by the time we got out of Korthos (after a couple of mishaps). I think that was more due to you being used to playing solo more than anything else.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1
    Mostly tounge-in-cheek and self depracating. I did have to learn to restrain myself at first but by level 3ish I was getting pretty good at holding back until the right time.
    Happens to me too. Most people, really, in a long quest and after sneaking for awhile. But a death consequence is more than just an anti-zerg tool. It impacts play style. Will you hold off your ranged attack to allow the melee enough time to pull initial aggro? Will you pace your shots to manage aggro, or just fire as fast as possible? Will you utilize available cover or just stand still so you get more bonus numbers? Can you be patient enough to not use fire attacks when your buddy is throwing around webs to debuff foes? Will you wait patiently while the bard sneaks ahead and uses his Fascinate (and when he does, will you only target foes that do not have breakable debuffs)? Can an arcane hold his fire against the minions so that he has enough sp to metamagic the red name? Will you take the time to figure out how to use the environment to your advantage? Will you deliberately pass on an optional to preserve the best chance to complete your quest with no deaths? Will you avoid smashables so that monsters won't know you're coming? The list goes on.


    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1
    I haven't seen any word on admin items in STORM v2.
    Maybe it was my assumption that a rogue in an elite dungeon would have an admin item? I thought I saw something in this thread about that - probably just a comment and not a decision.


    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1
    I'm talking about a melee without +5 icy burst of awesomeness weapons able to kill elite mobs in a single blow while sporting uber armor, max stat boosters, high AC and PRR. Melee types in low-magic do not kill mobs quickly and have a high chance of taking hits with low PRR and less health than their uber DDO cousins.
    I wonder how you'd think if your Storm group had had any arcanes? I wonder how I'd think if THAC0 had any true front-liners?


    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1
    So a 32 point build should not be allowed? Also you assume all Drow will want to be arcanes. Spell Resist is nice, but so are the human free feat and extra skill points.
    I think 32 vs. 28 point build is entirely separate? The +4 stat is the racial bonus impact. Other races have balanced bonuses (e.g. +2 dex, -2 con)
    Last edited by Magiker; 10-08-2013 at 03:03 PM.

  5. #65
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magiker View Post
    I think 32 vs. 28 point build is entirely separate? The +4 stat is the racial bonus impact. Other races have balanced bonuses (e.g. +2 dex, -2 con)
    Drow are a 28pt build with +2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, +2 Charisma, -2 Constitution. Essentially a 32pt build that does not get a choice on where the 4 points go.

    Any other race with a 32 point build is just as good.

  6. #66
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magiker View Post

    Also, while rogues do have a higher death chance due to traps...isn't that why an admin item is allowed? And I disagree that front-line types are more vulnerable than arcanes, unless you're talking about a non-tank frontliner that makes heavy use of intimidate.

    I think the front line types generally get the worst of AoE and spell effects than casters and ranged players.


    Quote Originally Posted by Magiker View Post

    Regardless, a sorc has twice the spellpoints of a wizard and that becomes very telling in an SP restricted playstyle.

    More like 70% more. And at low levels, before level 10, even that is negligible given wizards can cast 1pt hypnotism, 3 pt webs, 3pt Otto's etc.

    The big advantage is the reduced casting time.



    Quote Originally Posted by Magiker View Post
    I feel that echoes is more than enough to compensate on very long quests. And I feel that allowing spell selection during the quest is something of a cheat. Its almost akin to preparing spells beforehand based on meta-knowledge. If there was actually a chance that shrine usage would be interrupted (and thus lost) due to wandering monsters, then I'd be ok with it. But sadly its more of a "do over" button.

    I think echoes of power is anti-thetical to PnP while rest shrines are actually representative of PnP (although some quests have too many) because they simulate resting overnight. I'd rather not use echoes and only use rest shrines in longer quests. But I don't care either way.
    Last edited by Postumus; 10-08-2013 at 03:32 PM.

  7. #67
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    Drow are a 28pt build with +2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, +2 Charisma, -2 Constitution. Essentially a 32pt build that does not get a choice on where the 4 points go.

    Any other race with a 32 point build is just as good.

    And most people argue that any other 32 point race is better. Drow have been considered a 'gimp' race since I started mainly due to the reduced con and restriction where the points go. The spell resistance is an afterthought since it isn't as good as most feats and is essentially useless after level 8ish. (That isn't to say I don't like drow! )

  8. #68
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    And most people argue that any other 32 point race is better. Drow have been considered a 'gimp' race since I started mainly due to the reduced con and restriction where the points go. The spell resistance is an afterthought since it isn't as good as most feats and is essentially useless after level 8ish. (That isn't to say I don't like drow! )
    Yeah, that's what I usually hear as well. To me, Drow are a nice way for a F2P person to get a "sort of" 32 point build long before he can unlock Champion status.

    Personally, I like Drow for the "cool factor". I would say humans and half elves are more powerful, and other races it depends on 28 vs 32 point builds.

  9. #69
    Community Member zefjoe's Avatar
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    Default Sorry for not posting sooner...

    There's alot of posts I want to respond to. So bear with me.

    1 main class and 1 secondary class the secondary class is limited to level 4 and while leveling must never be within 4 levels of the primary class after level 5 the secondary may be first taken as level 3. Levels in secondary classes may be taken consecutively (levels 9-12 may all be the second class and then no more secondary class levels may be taken. The first level in this secondary class may be taken any time.

    OR

    1 main class and 2 secondary classes limited to level 3 in each. MUST level secondary classes consecutively and evenly (never more than 1 level difference). Always must have more than half character levels in primary class (if at different levels in secondary classes count the next level which must be taken in the other secondary class before taking the first). May take first secondary at level 3 but may not take third class until level 5. A third class may be taken as levels 5 through 10 provided the first secondary class is not higher than level 1. At least 1 primary class level must be taken before taking levels in secondary classes again after each pair of levels in secondary classes.
    Hunh?
    I originally had humans/half-humans with a different multi, but the consensus was it brought un-needed complexity. A multiclass [for all races] with the limitation of 2 levels difference between levels, brings enough old school to it by limiting splashing which is pure DDO.


    Potions may be 1 or 2 different types on hotbar in stacks of no more than 5 if 2 different types are used or 10 if only 1 type on on a hotbar. Potions that are found in quests may all be kept indefinitely but NON-curatives are limited to 20 of each in your inventory when entering a quest. Hotbarred potions may be moved to another tab but only if there are some remaining in the first tab. Hotbarred potions may be replenished between fights.
    Is this limiting just what potions are hotbarred of the types carried? I went with a stack of 16 because it is 1 pint. Imagine carrying 5 - 1 pint - canteens in a quest. Doesn't seem alot on paper, but realistically its alot to haul on a belt or bandoleer or on a pack. 5 types gives you SOME choice of what you want to have available to you. 16 drinks will go quick. If you pick up potions you will either add them to the "canteen" you got until 16 and then remove the overage or you will have a few oz. of more than 5 types which are ditched at the end of a quest.

    Rolling stats is impractical to impossible in DDO and whatever the player has available as a first life is allowed. There aren't really any other ways to do it in DDO except for requiring separate accounts for the party.
    How so impractical? I don't understand what you are saying. A new character is going to be rolled up in the company of the group. I.E. you bring what ever character into the game on the night scheduled to roll up. We all meet and party up. We roll for the characters that we will create. 3d6 rolled 8 times, anything under 6 discarded and rolled again. Highest and lowest ditched. The remaining 7 will be allocated how you wish. The numbers should be around 11-15, with maybe 1 really good one and one really low one. A good spread. NOT even close to min/max. Log off and roll character. Schedule for a play night.

    The TWF feat should allow 4 1-handed weapons instead of 2 main and 2 light.
    I dislike the sneak mode being required and don't really understand why its in there. The new enhancements allow some classes faster sneaking so why does the party rogue end up being the fastest person in the group.
    Why 4 - 1 handed? TWF feat only allows you to wield two weapons without the penalty. If you try to wield 2 1 handers you still incur a penalty. 1 1h and 1light is the way to go [unless Oversized Feat taken]. 4 main weapons for just the twfighter is unbalanced and unnecessary IMO.

    The SNEAK mode for movement reduces the impulse to zerg. Believe me, I have seen it time and time again. Not SNEAKing means players will be trotting from encounter to encounter. This leads to hastiness and the impulse to run in without strategy and tactics. Pretty soon everyone is dashing through the quest, and we will be no different than a PUG. With no Resurrection shrines and no Raise Dead available, SOME players will find themselves dying - ALOT. Those of us playing this style already, still see it. Some players die just about every game night. Because they don't see the value of taking it slow and thoughtful. A Rogue or Stalker is supposed to be quicker while sneaking, it's part of THEIR playstyle. As long as they don't get so far ahead of the healers that they die before aid gets there, there is no problem. If they zerg ahead - ding!

    Classes should be free classes + FvS. Arti is a house C favor reward but I believe it is too powerful.
    Races should be Free + drow.
    That's pretty much what I posted. Free Races and classes and the old unlockables. If you have Drow and Fvs unlocked you're good. The argument for Drow is below. FvS - if it's unlockable I think it's only fair to allow it. But perhaps any class that is REALLY op should be mandatory multiclass. It will limit them without disallowing them. [Which will also make them more versatile - a good thing for the team.]

    The main issue is the Half-humans. Helf and Horc are both D&D. Do we want to make them exceptions? I think there are both ok and would allow them.

    My thoughts on end chests are that they should be included. Just treat them like any other chest.
    Agreed.

    You've completely abandoned death consequence?
    Just forgot to post it. They'll be in there.

    You can't use this formula, it won't match up to a 28-32 point build.
    Hunh? Roll a 3d6. 8 times. Number is

    12 keep it.
    14 keep it.
    17 keep it.
    04 discard roll again
    11 keep it.
    18 keep it.
    03 discard roll again
    16 keep it.
    09 keep it.
    10 keep it.

    Throw out the 18 and 09

    12
    14
    17
    11
    16
    10

    put them into the abilities you want. The abilities that reduce by 2 will lower that number by two, take that into account!.

    How does one "twink" gear?
    No passing of gear from characters outside the group.

    Too much detail. Just let ML restrictions guide this, and no swapping gear during a fight.
    Come on, it's not that hard to remember. You're not really saying your character is carrying around spare armor, a couple cloaks, 5 or 6 weapons, 2 sets of boots and 2 shields are you?

    The gear sets allow you to carry -

    if you are twf - 2 1handed main weapons, 2 light weapons, a bow and quiver.

    if you are thf - 2 2handed weapons, one on back - one in hand, 2light weapons at hip. You can "set" the carried 2h on the ground and use bow/xbow. That's "believable". A shield too? How?

    if you are s&b - 1 1handed carried in hand, 1 shield carried. You going to have a shield slung on the back too? 1 other 1handed at the hip, and 2 light weapons in thigh sheaths. If you got 2 shields, where are you carrying the bow and quiver?

    I wish that a character had hotpoint slots where you could assign a weapon to be "carried". And then you actively "drew" a weapon "set" by hotbar/key. But since we don't have this, I'm suggesting this. It's meant to limit. It's meant for you to decide what you are going to have to NOT carry. You CAN'T carry a weapon for all occasions. I think it was one of the vets who said bringing in a golf bag full of weapons is too DDO.

    Switching weapons during combat is believable; switching gear not so believable.

    If you see mobs down the end of a long hallway, but they don't see you, if the plan is to bum rush you can begin your run at the most tactical moment, not waiting until you sneak close enough for them to see/hear you.
    Bum rushing often led to one of the STORM guys dying. In seemed like at least 1 person died in at least 1 quest weekly, from haste and drawing more aggro than we could handle as a group. The devs build a dungeon with careful placement of the enemy. Attacking them on their ground is always a bad idea. They should be drawn and separated as often as possible. That takes time and coordination. I always felt like we were hurrying through the dungeon, either sneaking along far behind the rest or sneaking out front and having everyone trotting on my heels.

    "no finish and Recall unless physically unable to reach entrance or quest has an exit provided."
    A waste of time if there are no mobs/traps behind you. If the way is 100% clear behind you, recall.
    The purpose of retracing your route is -
    1) it is metagaming at it's worst NOT to. You turn an adventure into a game level.
    2) you lose immersion, and sometimes the dungeon itself presents a challenge to make it out unscathed.
    3) the recall is a big red "easy" button - literally.

    You're allowing Drow?
    You're allowing Sorc?
    A drow sorc with a rest shrine? [smacks head]

    You are assuming that the Drow Sorc ever gets anything worth a damn in magic items, which for the first 5 levels, he pretty much won't. The new loot tables are all melee favored with caster gear as a very uncommon or rare. A Sorc without Wizardry gear and enhancment scepters is the same as a wiz with less spell selection. At least from lvl 1-5.

    Dropping end rewards from the system is a game changer for casters. I play in the Monday night THACO group. I have looted a total of 4 chests along with the whole party. We have not generated one piece of caster gear out of 24 possible loots except 2 scrolls. Random loot makes casters come down a few pegs in the lower and mid levels.
    I agree. There are ways to limit without exclusion. Drow do indeed get +2 to three stats, but he only gets a 28 point build to work with. If you could get a 32 point build with +2 stats to DEX,INT,CHR - I agree it would be way op. In comparison, an Elf 32 point build, with -2 CON is going to be no weaker as a sorcerer with maxed CHR than a Drow, or Human with maxed CHR. The spell resistance is a good benefit yes, but Halflings get alot of + to their saves, Dwarf's get alot of boost to their PRR, Humans get huge amp to healing, etc.

    Regardless - Drow, Helfs, Horcs have been debated endlessly on the Forums - OP or not OP. Personally I think that - WITH THESE RESTRICTIONS of a PnP nature - it will bring balance to them. And in the end if someone is a little more powerful because of it - well I can pike and not feel guilty.


    To wrap up, I think I should ask all who are interested in STORM v2. What is it that you wish to see with this group.

    A casual static group that has fun leveling to cap with a few simple rules?
    A PnP analog with low magic availability, limited gear, dungeon crawling and careful thought out team work with a page long ruleset?

    Careful it's a trick question.
    Last edited by zefjoe; 10-08-2013 at 06:27 PM.

  10. #70
    Community Member Varhann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zefjoe View Post

    A casual static group that has fun leveling to cap with a few simple rules?
    A PnP analog with low magic availability, limited gear, dungeon crawling and careful thought out team work with a page long ruleset?

    Careful it's a trick question.
    Both

    Consider me in if you'll have me.

  11. #71
    Community Member zefjoe's Avatar
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    Default Rule set v3

    Classes and Races:
    - Allowed races include everything f2p and Drow, Helf, Horc [not Warforged].
    - Allowed classes include everything f2p [not Arti, Druid, Monk, FvSoul].
    - Multiclassing is allowed but with no more than 2 levels difference between classes.

    Character creation:
    - Characters are rolled up in the company of the party, using 8 3d6 rolls. Any roll under 6 is discarded and rolled again. The highest and lowest rolls are dropped and the remaining 7 allocated as the player wishes. The method of - being the rolled number is the TARGET number the player plugs into the STAT.

    For example - rolled 14 is the number a player wishes for his DEX to be. He spends points into DEX to bring it up to 14. If his race has a -2 DEX he should select a rolled 16 to plug into that stat, otherwise it will be 12, even if he hasn't rolled a 12. [I may misunderstand how dice rolls work but his method is simple. I have a target number - do I have a rolled number that matches? I put points into the stat until it reaches the target. If the target has a -2 or a +2 I should take that into account. It is randomly rolled numbers assigned to where I want them, not numbers used to "fill up a stat".]


    Death:
    CHOICE 1
    a dead character unable to be raised - rides in the pack of another until the end of the quest. The shade of the fallen following along until just before the end. [Maybe the carrier must either not engage in combat or dump the stone first.] The dead character misses out on chest loot and the action but gets to share the adventure as a spirit. Near the end of the quest the dead character must release before the finish.

    Result - The dead are carried by another. Release before completion.
    No XP. No loot. No loss of gear.

    CHOICE 2
    a dead character unable to be raised - rides in the pack of another until the end of the quest. The shade of the fallen following along until just before the end. [Maybe the carrier must either not engage in combat or dump the stone first.] The dead character misses out on chest loot and the action but gets to share the adventure as a spirit. After quest completion the dead release. The dead character will choose his highest ML item [or 1 of his highest if multiple items have same ML], post it in party chat so that the group may see what it is, and then destroy it.

    Result - The dead are carried by another. The shade of the fallen following along, and finishes with the party. The fallen destroy the highest ML item in possession after Release. He must declare what item and show it in party chat so that all may see, and destroy it.
    Full XP. No loot. Loss of highest ML gear [destroyed].

    AUTOMATIC
    a dead character, whose soul stone is unable to be retrieved shall be left behind. He must Release from the quest.

    Result - The dead are left behind if their stone is unretrievable. They must Release immediately from the quest. After Release they must destroy ALL items EQUIPPED only.
    No XP. No loot. Loss of all equipped gear. [destroyed]


    Shrines:
    Level 1-7 = no shrine use - Echoes of Power will keep you running.
    Level 8-14 = 1 shrine use per quest for mana restoration only - caster needs to be nearly fully healed [no more than 10hp down] before use.
    Level 15-20 = no shrine use - by this time a dedicated caster should have SLA's and/or the ability to restore some magic.
    *Please not I split the difference here between no shrines and "some shrines".


    Chests and Looting:
    - ALL chests get 1, 1d6 roll. A 1 [16.6% chance] only allows the chest to be looted by all. Roll by round robin, starting with party leader at the first chest.
    - End Rewards can only be taken for Chained quests, otherwise select Valor.
    - Any loot drops from crates or barrels can be kept by the breaker.


    Gear and packs:
    - No gear or magic items may be bought at vendors, pawn shops or AH.
    - No gear or magic items may come in from the DDO store or other characters from outside the group.
    - No "admin" or "heirloom" items.

    - total number of gear/items equipped and carried = ML total.

    Level 1-5; ML = level x 2
    Level 6-10; ML = level x3
    Level 11-15; ML = level x4
    Level 16-20; ML = level x5

    - Fortification items get reduced ML. Multiply ML by the fort %, and round up.

    Weapon sets equipped and carried in pack at most:
    - 2 main weapons
    - 2 secondary weapons [light at most]

    then
    - 1 shield

    or

    - 1 bow [xbow]
    - 1 quiver [wide or narrow]

    [not both a shield and bow and quiver, come on - have you tried to carry all that?]

    Each player only gets ONE article of gear for each armor/wearable equip slot that is large and or covers the body. So ONE piece of armor, outfit or robe, ONE headgear, ONE set of bracers, ONE cloak, ONE set of boots.

    Each player can carry two pair of smaller items, so TWO pair of Gloves, Rings, Necklaces, Trinkets, etc.

    the FIRST pack tab is the ONLY tab accessible while in a quest or wilderness. The others act as quick banks or pack mule or porter or whatever you wish to role play [NOTE this means acquired items in quest can be PUT INTO other tabs to carry, just not ACCESSIBLE.] Only Magic Ingredients are the exception and may be carried in any tab.

    If a character is lucky enough to acquire a Portable Hole, that converted pack space could be used as such. Any bags such as Gems, Collectibles or Essences that are gotten in game are allowed [from quest givers or vendors], but cannot be purchased through the DDO store.


    Potions:
    - No potions of any type may be bought from vendors, AH or alts.
    - Found potions of any type can be kept, but are limited to 5 STACKS of 16 of any type brought into a quest AT START. = 5 pint sized canteens/flagons. They can be carried from quest to quest.

    Healing/cure items can be obtained from collectors provided you got the collectibles from questing. No collectibles (or rewards from collectibles) allowed from outside sources such as AH or alts.

    Wands and Scrolls:
    - Wands and Scrolls found in quests can be used within the quest and can be kept from quest to quest. The ML level COUNTS towards ML total.

    Odds and Ends:
    - normal movement mode is by SNEAK, unless tactically retreating.
    - no finish and Recall unless physically unable to reach entrance or quest has an exit provided.
    - no grouping outside of the party/guild.

  12. #72
    Community Member Varhann's Avatar
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    I am undecided on the death penalty, so I will go with the majority on this one. I could play with any of the choices and I have no preferences.

    Everything else looks good to me. Well done Zefjoe.

  13. #73
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zefjoe View Post
    The SNEAK mode for movement reduces the impulse to zerg. Believe me, I have seen it time and time again. Not SNEAKing means players will be trotting from encounter to encounter. This leads to hastiness and the impulse to run in without strategy and tactics.
    I don't like sneaking on non-stealth characters for four reasons:

    1- If I have no ranks in move silent/hide and heavy armor, it does nothing. There is no advantage. And I can stay well behind the scout without having to sneak everywhere.


    2- It's much harder to react from the sneak position. I noticed that I had real trouble dodging caster spells than if I was already standing because my first instinct is to dodge a spell, not turn off sneak then dodge. It also makes it harder for me to rush when I need to rush, and retreat when I need to retreat.


    3- It's much harder to cast from a sneak position. I found my casting time was noticeably reduced when trying to cast from a sneak position, and a lot of spells require the caster to close to a certain range, which is nearly impossible to do quickly while in sneak. I can dart forward, cast a spell, then dart back or even behind a corner much faster when not in sneak.

    4- Jump skill is decreased while in sneak. (Although at least now you can jump).


    Quote Originally Posted by zefjoe View Post

    The purpose of retracing your route is -
    1) it is metagaming at it's worst NOT to. You turn an adventure into a game level.
    When you play(ed) PnP did you spend just as much time exiting the dungeon as you did when you first explored it? Because we always cut to the chase at the end of the module and said (or the DM said) "OK, we return to town... "


    Quote Originally Posted by zefjoe View Post
    2) you lose immersion, and sometimes the dungeon itself presents a challenge to make it out unscathed.
    Maybe 1% of the quests have significant respawns where exiting is any kind of challenge. 99% of the quests everything stays dead, so this argument doesn't sway me.


    Quote Originally Posted by zefjoe View Post
    3) the recall is a big red "easy" button - literally.
    So are you allowing Dimension Door? Or is that a big blue 'easy' button?




    Quote Originally Posted by zefjoe View Post
    Careful it's a trick question.
    I'd like to use my lifeline for this one... Fedora?

  14. #74
    Community Member DrowsworD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zefjoe View Post


    Hunh? Roll a 3d6. 8 times. Number is

    12 keep it.
    14 keep it.
    17 keep it.
    04 discard roll again
    11 keep it.
    18 keep it.
    03 discard roll again
    16 keep it.
    09 keep it.
    10 keep it.

    Throw out the 18 and 09

    12
    14
    17
    11
    16
    10

    put them into the abilities you want. The abilities that reduce by 2 will lower that number by two, take that into account!.
    This is one things I haven't understood. If I added correctly, your example is 38 points - how do you get those stats with a 28 - or a 32 - point build.

    I ran a few (nearly 100) scenarios and got a few 18, a few 17 - all which were rejected - and a LOT of 9, 10, 11's. This is in step with the median of 3d6 being 10.5.

    I tried to build a character using stats I rolled this way and they do not fit. I either ended with >32 points or < 28 in most cases. In many trials I could only spend 10 - 15 points due to the very low rolls. I did this using Excel, not the DDO /roll, but it is still random number generation.

    Granted this is an old school PnP style generation method, but one that gives very generic and "non-hero material" characters. I am not arguing against the method, just wondering how you could fit the roll above into the character generation of DDO.

    If we go with this method, as it is the only one suggested, I would suggest that we toss any roll below 8 and reroll.

  15. #75
    Community Member zefjoe's Avatar
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    I don't like sneaking on non-stealth characters for four reasons:
    1- If I have no ranks in move silent/hide and heavy armor, it does nothing. There is no advantage. And I can stay well behind the scout without having to sneak everywhere.
    Ah, there's the rub as the Bard would say, it does do something - it slows you down. By the time Storm 1 was in the Tombs, we were literally trotting through the halls. If Vinnie went into sneak mode she fell far behind. When Vinnie or Narcene got out front, Jed and Cadrod were no more than a few steps behind, constantly being spotted. We never took advantage of a good ambush by drawing a few enemies out piecemeal, we just surged into them. I felt constantly hurried. I just lived with it.

    2- It's much harder to react from the sneak position. I noticed that I had real trouble dodging caster spells than if I was already standing because my first instinct is to dodge a spell, not turn off sneak then dodge. It also makes it harder for me to rush when I need to rush, and retreat when I need to retreat.
    A valid point. Again, my main issue here is the rate at which we move through the dungeon. It got quicker and quicker as the night went on and as the weeks went by. I'm suggesting that the point man be far enough ahead that those with no sneak can't be spotted. That gives the group time to come up with an attack plan. And not just - well I'll bum rush the caster before he gets a shot off and you guys mop up.

    3- It's much harder to cast from a sneak position. I found my casting time was noticeably reduced when trying to cast from a sneak position, and a lot of spells require the caster to close to a certain range, which is nearly impossible to do quickly while in sneak. I can dart forward, cast a spell, then dart back or even behind a corner much faster when not in sneak.
    Another valid point. But instead of darting forward to get a cast off, why not draw the enemy away from his support group? Or at least make sure that when you do dart forward and our main melee springs into action, there aren't a group of enemies standing around the corner that will hear and come running?

    4- Jump skill is decreased while in sneak. (Although at least now you can jump).
    Another valid point. Tumble is also reduced while sneaking. I'm not saying you should try to jump a gap while sneaking. I'm saying you should cautiously approach the gap to make sure that you are not being observed before un-sneaking to make yourself so VERY vulnerable by jumping it at a run.

    When you play(ed) PnP did you spend just as much time exiting the dungeon as you did when you first explored it? Because we always cut to the chase at the end of the module and said (or the DM said) "OK, we return to town... "
    Actually yes, with one DM I played with, he would make it just as adventurous going home as it was getting to the quest. But that's beside the point. The couple of minutes retracing won't kill that much time, but standing at a dead end and hitting "finish" and POP, I'm outside again will kill immersion. A D-Door is part of the immersion. A spell that allows rapid exit. Takes up a spell slot. Better than walking back through the dungeon.

    I'm sure that this rule set will be followed by some - ignored by others - and will not satisfy everyone. It's just a guideline. A "manifesto" if you will. It lays out - compromised idea by compromised idea - methods that attempt to bring a sense of gritty realism, a sense of dungeon CRAWLING exploration and tactical combat to this game. It should set the tone for everyone who groups up to try and play the game THIS WAY, to share in the atmosphere and the experience.

    It will, hopefully, be unlike any casual static group just playing for fun out there.
    Last edited by zefjoe; 10-08-2013 at 09:01 PM.

  16. #76
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    You can't use this formula, it won't match up to a 28-32 point build.
    Hunh? Roll a 3d6. 8 times. Number is

    12 keep it.
    14 keep it.
    17 keep it.
    04 discard roll again
    11 keep it.
    18 keep it.
    03 discard roll again
    16 keep it.
    09 keep it.
    10 keep it.

    Throw out the 18 and 09

    12
    14
    17
    11
    16
    10

    put them into the abilities you want.
    Keeping the numbers you have there costs you 38 build points. That's what I mean when I say the formula won't work.

    STAT 12 = 4 points
    STAT 14 = 6 points
    STAT 17 = 13 points (base 8 + 6pts = 14 + 2pts = 15 + 2pts = 16 +3 pts = 17)
    STAT 11 = 3 points
    STAT 16 = 10 points (base 8 + 6pts = 14 + 2pts = 15 +2pts = 16)
    STAT 10 = 2 points

  17. #77
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zefjoe View Post
    The couple of minutes retracing won't kill that much time, but standing at a dead end and hitting "finish" and POP, I'm outside again will kill immersion.
    It's not immersion to me when the quest and danger are over. Then it becomes a video game with no object.

    And as I recall, before we started using recall (as long as mobs and traps behind us were clear) everyone took off on their own and we got strung out by a country mile anyway. If it's immersion you want, you need to sneak back out just like you snuck in, as a group. And it kills some time regardless.

  18. #78
    Community Member zefjoe's Avatar
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    DrowsworD, I'm open to any simple method of rolling for a character that provides random numbers for stat ability allotment. I just didn't want players to make a min/max, standard, DDO END GAME character. Since I almost exclusively multiclass, I never encounter this problem myself because I'm usually trying to make 3 or 4 stats good and none bad, instead of 1 "main" stat super and 1 "dump" stat. I dislike stats below 10 and have never had a stat above 15. So all my characters had a spread between 10-15 with 3-4 above 12 and 2-3 below.

    Any suggestions or help here is welcome.

  19. #79
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Oh and regarding the pressure/rush you felt when we were questing by Jed and Cadrod not using sneak mode, but just staying behind you - you could have just told us to get our noisy butts back and let you do your job.

    I did not realize it was a problem. I was always the first to say "let the scout decide, let the scouts go first" etc. A word telling me to hang back further would have been sufficient.

  20. #80
    Community Member zefjoe's Avatar
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    Then it becomes a video game with no object.
    Like hitting a button and magically going outside? Let's agree to disagree; our sense of what immerses us into the game differ.

    I did not realize it was a problem. I was always the first to say "let the scout decide, let the scouts go first" etc. A word telling me to hang back further would have been sufficient.
    I kinda hoped calling you "zerger" would drop a hint. I didn't want to be "oh that kinda guy".
    And it wasn't a problem, I lived with it. It just made me feel rushed. If you thought we were moving slow in STORM 1, you would have died of old age in THACO. HA!

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