Page 2 of 8 FirstFirst 123456 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 147
  1. #21
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    236

    Default

    I ran a sorc in THAC0 with no shrines and I felt he had way too many spell points. A wizard with no shrines feels right. If you're considering allowing the sorc class and you're allowing a rest shrine, then I can't imagine any other character will be relevant from a "dps" perspective. If you're building a tank/healer/dps/cc type of specialist group, then that's fine. Otherwise, not so much.

  2. #22
    Community Member zefjoe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    far, far away...
    Posts
    220

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Magiker View Post
    I ran a sorc in THAC0 with no shrines and I felt he had way too many spell points. A wizard with no shrines feels right. If you're considering allowing the sorc class and you're allowing a rest shrine, then I can't imagine any other character will be relevant from a "dps" perspective. If you're building a tank/healer/dps/cc type of specialist group, then that's fine. Otherwise, not so much.
    Exactly.

    It was this and my experience running Calibhan [level 10 Cleric] that prompted the Echoes of Power suggestion with very limited shrine use [upper mid level-low high level quests will need more umph to spell selection, and these will require more than EoP and SLA's {SLA's will take alot of AP investment for higher levels} can supply.] Just this past Wed. Calibhan ran through a Threnal quest - over half of it - with nothing but EoP. He was still able to throw Contagion and Curse to debuff, Nimbus of Light and Searing Light SLA's, Sunbolt SLA for damage and have CLW, CMW and all the first tier buffs available. With the Korthos clicky set he could even emergency Raise Dead twice! All that with 12 SPELL POINTS. Granted the quest was on normal, but as PART OF A TEAM, even on ELITE you are CONTRIBUTING, not CARRYING.

    If a player wishes to be ultra conservative with his sp's, fine - he will choose low tier spells and play more tactically. If a player wishes to burn through his sp's spamming, fine - he will have to rely on EoP at some point and low tier spells - and play more tactically. Either way, a caster will have to realize that with this playstyle, he will not be the demi-god he usually is in regular DDO. His spells will be slow in coming and he will have to choose when and where and what best to use. That makes for more immersive and engaging play.

    Think back to PnP casters. Did they whip spells around like a monkey hurling feces? ;p Or did they have to take a moment to think of what they were going to cast and where to cast it so that it had the most effect? DDO vs. PnP.

  3. #23
    Community Member zefjoe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    far, far away...
    Posts
    220

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Varhann
    Death -
    I like the idea of losing an item to the gods on death. This seems to be a good compromise and reminds me of the old PnP rule of losing 1 point of Con every time your were raised/resurrected/reincarnated. I would also like to add that a death limit based on Con score should be considered. If you reach that limit during game play, you are gone for good. I still think that unless your shard is unrecoverable, you should not lose all your items and would be opposed to losing it all to your friends.
    While I don't relish the idea of sitting in the tavern recovering while everyone finishes, I can't really think of a better way to accommodate the death. I think that no xp should be garnered from the adventure unless you have made it to the end and die fighting in the last room. This is the one rule where I think some flexibility needs to be used. Maybe make it a majority rules vote on whether you get the xp or not based on your total contribution up to the point of death. I just don't have a simple answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Postumous
    I find these types of 'majority vote' rules almost always go in favor of the player who died since none of the survivors really wants to be the bad guy who says 'I don't think your character deserves the xp."

    Also, depending on how your DM ran the campaign, your character would usually get xps for monsters killed, traps disarmed/found, and magic items found. In PnP if your fighter kills half the quest monsters, dies, then gets resurrected at the end, he'd still have earned the xps for killing those monsters. In DDO it is either all or nothing since you can't give percentages of xp.

    Most of the 'death penalties' are just not fun for players, which is why we always voted them down in Storm 1. As Fedora explained, no one wants to spend half of their play time 'dead' and not being able to contribute.

    Maybe whatever 'death penalty' you choose should be limited to applying only when your character cannot be raised in quest by another character? Dying would have much harsher consequences at low levels (like PnP), but not be as severe once your party can actually raise dead.


    Unfortunately DDO doesn't have a way to give partial xp. OR does it? The daily dice roll often gives an XP "gift" of a few hundred points. I think they are bound to Account. It could be allowed. But then we are opening up a can of worms as far as the Daily Dice goes.

    Missed xp's are the consequence of death, just like in PnP. Again - if you trivialize death - then death will have no repercussions. A player that rushes into a room flailing about with his weapons - foregoing a tactical, TEAM oriented gameplan, risking not only his "life" but his mates as well, because he knows that his ding will not mean a thing, is not playing PnP D&D. He's metagaming DDO. He's ZERGING. There's a difference between that and a heroic stand when ambushed - engaging as many of the enemies as possible to allow your TEAM the opportunity to rally and make a response. DDO vs. PnP.

    So we have:

    - a dead character unable to be raised - rides in the pack of another until the end of the quest. [Maybe that other must either not engage in combat or dump the stone first.] The dead character misses out on chest loot and the action but gets to share the adventure as a spirit. At the end of the quest the dead character must recall before the finish, losing the xp.

    and/or

    - If the quest is part of a chain, the option to destroy the highest ML item (1) in possession as sacrifice to the divines to allow the character to finish the quest and advance the chain along with his mates.

    OR

    - a dead character unable to be raised and cannot be carried to the end because his stone is unretrievable, then destroys all equipped gear. No loss of XP if the party succeeds in bringing your stone to the end, and no loss of gear unless your body/stone doesn't make it out.

    Some combination of these, will I think, satisfy most everyone. They give meaning to death, not trivializing it, but are not so extreme - IN EVERY CASE OF DEATH - to be too harsh. What do you think?
    Last edited by zefjoe; 10-04-2013 at 09:49 AM.

  4. #24
    2015 DDO Players Council Hazelnut's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Canada, EST
    Posts
    884

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Varhann View Post
    Death -
    I like the idea of losing an item to the gods on death. This seems to be a good compromise and reminds me of the old PnP rule of losing 1 point of Con every time your were raised/resurrected/reincarnated. I would also like to add that a death limit based on Con score should be considered. If you reach that limit during game play, you are gone for good. I still think that unless your shard is unrecoverable, you should not lose all your items and would be opposed to losing it all to your friends. While I don't relish the idea of sitting in the tavern recovering while everyone finishes, I can't really think of a better way to accommodate the death. I think that no xp should be garnered from the adventure unless you have made it to the end and die fighting in the last room. This is the one rule where I think some flexibility needs to be used. Maybe make it a majority rules vote on whether you get the xp or not based on your total contribution up to the point of death. I just don't have a simple answer.
    I see your point. Perhaps resurrection should have a cost. If we are following the PnP style, it would be the living members of the party that pay for the cost of resurrecting a dead person. After all, they are the ones that need to negotiate with the healers. Possibly payment needs to be made in platinum? Whatever the final solution it will be tricky.

    Quote Originally Posted by Varhann View Post
    Magic Items -
    I like the idea of ML vs level system and would feel good using that. It offers enough choices and still limits. But I'd like to add that the ML per lvl be strict. You cannot go over the limit at all and if an item puts you over, you will have to discard an item to make space for the new item. Is this too harsh? What I'd like to avoid is players hoarding items in storage and possibly picking and choosing a item from his stockpile based on what quest we are running that play session.

    I like the idea of one item per slot max and the weapon/armor set max as suggested by Zefjoe. It covers the base idea that you cannot carry an arsenal with you. I also like the idea of the first tab backpack being all you can access with one addition. Casters will need to have more slots simply to carry casting ingredients. I would say that casting ingredients could be carried in the last tab to represent pouched ingredients and would not take up the first tab space.
    The characters aren't going to have the option of collecting a set of weapons until they are higher level given the way treasure is collected in this style of play. Since the group is based in Stormreach, it isn't unreasonable that they would save some items (backup armor/weapons) in their home or banked. Things do get destroyed (even in DDO). I don't know what it looked like in the old STORM as far as swapping out weapons BUT my THAC0 character (Veyeolette) has no spare armor (yet) and only 1 a pair of spare weapons in the bank (and those are both ML1). I doubt the issue of having an arsenal of fight specific equipment is going to crop up until somewhere above level 10 (and by that point it might be needed).

    I'm not sure how to handle the backpack question, so I'm going to put in a somewhat arbitrary suggestion. When starting a quest night all items you want accessible must be in the same backpack tab (i.e, a max of 20 items) or worn. If that's too tight, we could consider that only items in the 1st backpack slot (or worn) can be hot-barred. I haven't played spellcasters (other than ranger) on DDO, so this might be an issue for them.

    It does, however, simplify the question of how many weapons and spare types of potions can be carried by any one character. It will also (probably) prompt dividing up found potions based on type and needing to pass them out when needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Varhann View Post
    Shrines -
    I would like to see only 1 shrine per quest max from 1-20. This is more than generous. If Echoes of Power is being used, that is a major boon in itself and can carry most casters a long way. Since SLA's are even easier to get than before there should be no issue with caster blowing through all their SP to quickly. SP Conservation should still be in the casters mindset. I agree that shrine use should be tied with being fully healed. We could possibly make a rule that if you are missing more than 10% of your HPs, then the shrine is out.
    I'm largely indifferent about shrines. I'll go with whatever the group consensus is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Varhann View Post
    Healing -
    I like being able to keep and use found pots and would easily agree to that. Pots obtained from collectibles likewise. I would lower the limit to 10 max and make them sharable to other party members. If others agree that 10 is too little, I'm alright with 20 max. I highly disagree with buying pots of any type unless they are tied to favor. The ability to BYOH is anathema to PnP style play. It really trivializes a lot of the DDO experience and is an EASY Button crutch I prefer not to lean on in this type of group..
    I don't know about max stack size limits or buying pots. If we can turn in collectible for pots, it's pretty much the same as buying only with a different type of currency. In the end, I'll work with whatever rules the group decides.

    Quote Originally Posted by Varhann View Post
    Quest Difficulty -
    I want to see flexibility in this. Sometimes Hard will be to difficult and Elite impossible. Other times they will be fine.
    I agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Varhann View Post
    Character Stats -
    I'm ok with any method.
    I agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Varhann View Post
    Races/Class -
    I'm ok with any race or class except Artificer. From the style of play we intend, the Artificer would have issues anyway.
    I don't know enough to have an opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Varhann View Post
    Multiclassing -
    I'll let you guys duke this one out. Metagaming builds are not what I would like to see in this group, but I know many folks love being a multi.
    I don't know enough to have an opinion. I tend to prefer a pure class anyway, unless there is a really good story behind multi-classing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Varhann View Post
    Cannith Crafting -
    None, nada, nunca, ect....
    I'm indifferent but that is definitely NOT like anything I've seen in PnP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Varhann View Post
    Augments -
    If you can earn them, then you can use them. Add +1 to the ML of the item maybe?
    I never ran across anything like augments in PnP, but I don't object to them being used if that is the group consensus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Varhann View Post
    Looting -

    This was not on the list, but I think it needs to be addressed. I like the THACO rule on looting, but I think we can make adjustments to that.

    First, the only chests that will exist to us are Named creatures and End Bosses, unless the chest needs to be opened to get a quest furthering item. Upon finding the chest, everyone rolls 1d10. Anyone that rolls a 1 gets to open that chest. Loot should then be divided up based on party agreement. This represents the treasure pile that the whole group finds. In PnP, it was a rare treasure pile that contained something for everyone and I'd like to attempt to simulate that. It also make sure that everyone eventually get something based on party discussion.

    Quests rewards are never taken. Only guild xp.

    Chain End rewards can be discussed. I think that these are truly the reward for completing a campaign and should be allowed. They count towards your ML per level limit. No duplicates in the party allowed unless the item specifically states there are multiples of that item in existence.
    I see your point about the PnP games didn't always have something for everyone. I never liked that. When I ran a game, everyone got something or nobody got anything. Granted sometimes people didn't really want what they got (I had per-class & race random tables). Sometimes I did divide up where things were found. So a small cache of treasure found in the middle of a quest had something for only one player, but there would be enough caches that everyone got something.

    The other thing (and DDO lacks this BIG TIME) is that when you kill a monster, you can take it's weapons, armor, and misc treasure it had on it's body. After all, if a group of orc barbarians attacked your party and you killed them, there would be a collection of swords, knives, clubs, and possibly orc sized armor. Something to consider.
    Zyinniah Hazelnut and Curissa Hazelnut on most servers.

  5. #25
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    236

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by zefjoe View Post
    So we have:

    - a dead character unable to be raised - rides in the pack of another until the end of the quest. [Maybe that other must either not engage in combat or dump the stone first.] The dead character misses out on chest loot and the action but gets to share the adventure as a spirit. At the end of the quest the dead character must recall before the finish, losing the xp.

    and/or

    - If the quest is part of a chain, the option to destroy the highest ML item (1) in possession as sacrifice to the divines to allow the character to finish the quest and advance the chain along with his mates.

    OR

    - a dead character unable to be raised and cannot be carried to the end because his stone is unretrievable, then destroys all equipped gear. No loss of XP if the party succeeds in bringing your stone to the end, and no loss of gear unless your body/stone doesn't make it out.

    Some combination of these, will I think, satisfy most everyone. They give meaning to death, not trivializing it, but are not so extreme - IN EVERY CASE OF DEATH - to be too harsh. What do you think?

    The first part (lose XP or lose highest ML item) will help stop the zerging. How about a simple choice and forget the "chain vs. non-chain" addendum?
    The second part (irretrievable stone) will help stop the "somebody(s) already died so I have nothing to lose" effect.

  6. #26
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Upstate New York (EST)
    Posts
    1,211

    Default

    I know you're hammering out details of a new system, but just let me comment on what I observe.

    Death:
    Death is not Dying, it is a condition that is not treatable in a Dungeon Environment, like a Coma.
    Even "bathing" in Lava (recently done) scars and tramatises the player to the point he must be returned to a Church for proper treatment.
    Therefore rolling a new character is not neccessary.

    Therefore....

    If Player dies before end battle completes:
    If a means to "Raise" is available.......
    Player is raised.....carry on.
    The ability to Raise Dead is covetted by the wise and as it's a Party "Asset", does not cost anything.

    If a means to "Raise" is not possible......
    He retains anything found up to that point from breakables. We all know this includes Gems and the occasional Magic Item.
    He drops from party and does not gain XP for Quest. This also resolves "forgeting" to drop before the end fight. (It has happened)
    He then solos in the Wilderness of his choice, but can not open chests found. He gains XP from Explorer, Slayer and possibly Rares.
    This way the player does get SOME XP for the time spent that night, just no material items.

    If Player dies DURING the end battle and quest is successful:
    Player gets quest XP

    If Party wipes at end battle:
    Nothing needs to be done.
    Because the Quest failed, the Party gets another chance to attempt it at a later date.

    This is how THAC0 does Death.
    It's simple and motivates players to "not" die.
    Again, this is offered as a reference.

  7. #27
    Community Member zefjoe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    far, far away...
    Posts
    220

    Default As far as death goes...

    From reviewing the posts so far I think these are possibly the best solutions of DEATH CONSEQUENCES. They seem to touch on every aspect that all posters have pointed out.

    So, to make them more real to envision:

    a scenario -
    The party of six adventurers are creeping through Butchers Path [and I DO MEAN CREEPING - movement mode is SNEAK, always, even if your sneak is -10!]. All managed to survive the kobolds ambush, but each encounter further drains resources and fatigues the party. Then it happens. In one of the dank tunnels connecting one room with another, the scout gets a faceful of lightning from a shaman. Down he goes and the party avenges him by quickly slaughtering the kobolds. Since the Cleric does not yet know Raise Dead, the party sadly gathers up his body and gear and one of them volunteers to carry/drag him along since its probably just as far to the exit as it is to go back to the entrance. Due to the dark magic that has begun to permeate Stormreach, the unhappy shade of the fallen team member actually follows along, offering mournful advice and gallows humor. Every encounter they have the carrier quickly drop his fallen comrade and fights, often standing over the body. Finally they all reach the end of the Path.

    CHOICE 1
    Before the party engages with the final foe the fallen hero feels his spirit being pulled away. Sadly, he says his goodbyes and vanishes from the company. He has not had the opportunity to share in the loot they have won. And now he will not share their experience. But when the party arrives back in Stormreach victorious, they find a high level Cleric in a seedy bar and have him Raise their fallen comrade. He lives again, with all that he entered the quest with.

    Result - The dead are carried by another. The shade of the fallen following along until just before the end. Recall.
    No XP. No loot. No loss of gear.

    CHOICE 2
    Before the party engages with the final foe the fallen hero feels his spirit being pulled away. Quickly the party begin to pray to the divines to allow their comrade to stay. The fallen hero offers up his most prized and valuable possession as a sacrifice. The divines grudgingly accept and allow the scout to remain in spirit with the party until the very end. He has not had the opportunity to share in the loot they have won. But fortunately he has been there to share their experience. When the party arrives back in Stormreach victorious, they find a high level Cleric in a seedy bar and have him Raise their fallen comrade. He lives again, but without his most treasured possession.

    Result - The dead are carried by another. The shade of the fallen following along, and finishes with the party. The fallen destroy the highest ML item in possession after Recall. He must declare what item and show it in party chat so that all may see, and destroy it.
    Full XP. No loot. Loss of highest ML gear [destroyed].


    a scenario-
    The party of six adventurers are creeping through the muck and mire of the Red Fens, searching for a fabled cave of Fire Giants. Finally after dodging various denizens of the Fens they find the entrance. Slowly the make their way into the humongous caverns and encounter various giants, vermin and mephits. After traversing much of the caverns without losing a single soul, the party comes to a gorge with a flowing river of lava. With weary, trembling legs they scale the rocks jumping from ledge to ledge. Finally it happens. The main fighter, weighted down with heavy armor and the last reserves of strength gone, misses a jump and tumbles down, down into the lava. His team mates howl in frustration and grief. His body beyond reach, his sad shade staring up at them, urging them to not even try to reclaim him. Forsaking him they finally reach the end of the path, and with mad rage in their hearts battle to the exit. Their comrade had already left the caverns, offering up his spirit to the divines. With mercy they relocate his body to the nearest Cleric to be Raised again. In gratitude the fallen hero offers those possessions he has equipped as gifts to the divines. Sadly the fallen hero has not shared in the loot or experience that his fellows have. He did not even make it with his held possessions. Luckily for him, he had stored in his pack spare items that were preserved by the divines and stored away in the Stormreach bank, enough gear to get him started adventuring again with his mates.

    Result - The dead are left behind if their stone is unretrievable. They may Recall immediately from the quest or stay and communicate [but not being with the party this gets tiresome]. Upon Recall they must destroy all items equipped only.
    No XP. No loot. Loss of all equipped gear. [destroyed]

    [ORGINALLY I had thought of all items in possession, but this seemed overly harsh when writing about it. One of the reasons I did write these out, it makes the actions and consequences more real ]

    The last thing I'll mention here without writing about it is the Raising of the Dead. Once a cleric or paladin can do so do we want to have the raised character offer ANY magic item in his possession as a sacrifice/gift? Does this seem appropriate? Multiple deaths by the same character will become expensive.

    I think these options bring some of that old school style without scaring everybody off. Granted they are not exactly like PnP. The idea is to create an analog of PnP using the game given to us that is DDO. I think this "feels" PnP-ish to me.

    Thoughts?
    Last edited by zefjoe; 10-04-2013 at 04:55 PM.

  8. #28
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    SW Wheloon
    Posts
    6,867

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Magiker View Post
    The first part (lose XP or lose highest ML item) will help stop the zerging.

    We never used death penalties like this in Storm 1 and we didn't have a problem with zerging. The scouts (always in sneak mode) almost always dictated the pace of the group. Not zerging really comes down to choice. Dying and getting stuck in the 'penalty box' watching while the rest of the group gets to complete the quest is more than enough incentive to play cautiously for most people.


    You don't have the item sacrifice in the other THACO groups, do you find zerging is still an issue?


    I seriously doubt the death any of the penalties proposed would have encouraged anyone in our group to die less frequently than they did. Party position, role, class, bad luck, and lag (both Vinnie and Jed had several lag deaths) seemed to be the prime contributors to deaths much more than anything else.


    For example, in STORM 1 the scouts, Vinnie and Narcene, by far died the most frequently, followed by Jed (our only true melee), while the support roles Cadrod and Percy/Mansoor (bard and clerics) died the least frequently. Additional death penalties wouldn't have changed that IMO.

  9. #29
    Community Member zefjoe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    far, far away...
    Posts
    220

    Default The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune...

    Death penalties - consequences - results - repercussions, they are not suggested to keep a player from zerging or to play cautiously. As Postumous said, a death penalty in STORM 1 wouldn't have kept Jed and Cadrod from trotting through the dungeon on the heels of the scouts with zero ability to sneak, or bumrushing the caster. ;P

    It is being suggested because NOT having a death penalty is metagaming. Oops, I died. No biggie I'll just; resurrect or recall or spirit cake or MULLIGAN. It doesn't matter if it comes about because the player is reckless [GUILTY AS CHARGED - I often stay too long in a fight, ding] or has bad judgement [GUILTY AS CHARGED - I have often leaped through a doorway to try and flank casters, ding] or suffers from lag [GUILTY AS CHARGED - I have often froze in mid-fight, ding].

    Your character, your avatar, the REPRESENTATION OF YOU, has died. There should be a... consequence. I would be very willing to adopt any of the above suggestions as a penalty simply because it would add immersion to the experience. It would allow me to add depth to my tavern tales...

    Yeah, I once had the most wond'rous longsword. Silver alloyed it were... with a ruby gem in the hilt like the baleful eye of a demon. Balanced like a dream it were. And wreathed about the blade, like a fine caul of lightning, magic played. All enemies struck by that sword would... But I had to sacrifice it to the Host. Lucky for me it was a good'un and they sent me back. Hale and ready to fight.

    This shouldn't be a game we play once a week. It should be our escape from reality. A trip to another world, crawling through the dungeon as some adventurer. Remember PnP...P...P...p...p...
    Last edited by zefjoe; 10-04-2013 at 07:32 PM.

  10. #30
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    236

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    You don't have the item sacrifice in the other THACO groups, do you find zerging is still an issue?
    Yes.

  11. #31
    Community Member zefjoe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    far, far away...
    Posts
    220

    Default Moving on...

    Regarding items being equipped, which ties into looting of chests. As I stated, THACO currently rolls for a small percentage chance to open and loot a chest. While this simulates D&D treasure tables [specifically 2nd edition] it has shown that it DRASTICALLY cuts down the gear equipped. Depending on how austere you wish to run equipped, it might not be for everyone. While it cuts down on the Monty Haul aspect of the game it also eliminates choices as to what you will equip. If you are only getting to loot 1 or 2 chests per quest and of those,

    you pull a docent and you are not Warforged
    you pull a dwarf axe and you are not a dwarf

    well sucks to be you don't it.

    Limiting magic items is the goal. Limiting choices should not be. So by using a ML = level x exponent you can choose what to equip given a LIMITED set of possibilities. If you think that allowing all chests and End Rewards is too much, then we can implement a chest roll - say 1d100 - anything below 50% no go - anything above 50% - loot it. Or make it 33%, or 25%. Given that we all will have finite space to store gear, have finite pack space to carry gear that we can access in quest [1 TAB - possibly another tab for consumables and potions] we shouldn't be overgeared.

    Level 1-5; ML = level x 2
    Level 6-10; ML = level x3
    Level 11-15; ML = level x4
    Level 16-20; ML = level x5

    These are the total of ML of combined items that you have, both equipped and carried. At level 5 you can carry 10 ML worth of stuff. Each item has a ML. Add them all up. If you are over 10, you must switch out something to put you at 10 or less.

    Give this some thought, look at the gear you have on your other characters. Add up the ML's. See how this would effect what they could carry. Does it "feel" more like PnP than DDO?

  12. #32
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    236

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by zefjoe View Post
    Regarding items being equipped, which ties into looting of chests. As I stated, THACO currently rolls for a small percentage chance to open and loot a chest. While this simulates D&D treasure tables [specifically 2nd edition] it has shown that it DRASTICALLY cuts down the gear equipped. Depending on how austere you wish to run equipped, it might not be for everyone. While it cuts down on the Monty Haul aspect of the game it also eliminates choices as to what you will equip. If you are only getting to loot 1 or 2 chests per quest and of those,

    you pull a docent and you are not Warforged
    you pull a dwarf axe and you are not a dwarf

    well sucks to be you don't it.

    Limiting magic items is the goal. Limiting choices should not be. So by using a ML = level x exponent you can choose what to equip given a LIMITED set of possibilities. If you think that allowing all chests and End Rewards is too much, then we can implement a chest roll - say 1d100 - anything below 50% no go - anything above 50% - loot it. Or make it 33%, or 25%. Given that we all will have finite space to store gear, have finite pack space to carry gear that we can access in quest [1 TAB - possibly another tab for consumables and potions] we shouldn't be overgeared.

    Level 1-5; ML = level x 2
    Level 6-10; ML = level x3
    Level 11-15; ML = level x4
    Level 16-20; ML = level x5

    These are the total of ML of combined items that you have, both equipped and carried. At level 5 you can carry 10 ML worth of stuff. Each item has a ML. Add them all up. If you are over 10, you must switch out something to put you at 10 or less.

    Give this some thought, look at the gear you have on your other characters. Add up the ML's. See how this would effect what they could carry. Does it "feel" more like PnP than DDO?
    The problem with chests is that they contain "n" instances of treasure where n = party size. If only one person opens the chest and loots it, and distributes that loot to the party, then I think you can open all chests and dispense with the % rolls altogether.

    Also, maybe ignore all end rewards except for quest chains?

    Adding this to the scaling ML restriction should work pretty well.

    I agree that mission difficulty should be flexible, particularly in regards to how it adjusts party level vs. mission level. Does this group intend to quest at level? 1 beyond level? 2 beyond level? Etc.
    Last edited by Magiker; 10-05-2013 at 10:33 AM.

  13. #33
    Community Member zefjoe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    far, far away...
    Posts
    220

    Default 6 of 1 half a dozen of t'other...

    "The problem with chests is that they contain "n" instances of treasure where n = party size. If only one person opens the chest and loots it, and distributes that loot to the party, then I think you can open all chests and dispense with the % rolls altogether."

    So, only the "chosen" character looking into the chest will be able to pull "his" instance of treasure and then dole it out? 1 magic item up for bid? And the odds that it is anything anyone wants?

    Yes, it would reduce items drastically. It would also cause some problems.

    Is the "chosen one" determined by roll or round robin?
    Is the rest of the treasure [money, gems, etc.] passed out or just kept by the "chosen one"?

    This limits magic items - a good thing.
    This limits choices - a BAD thing.

    If my character is a wizard specializing in negative magic, and my "instance" would have had a item of Nullification and Void lore in it [chances of said item being RARE to find], and instead I get to bid on a +1 Longsword of Shocking Touch, I'd be pretty ****ed. Of course I wouldn't know that item was in there, but it COULD HAVE BEEN MINE. "Fate" already takes a hand in what item will pop up when you look into the chest. There is no need to further "fate-ify" what could have been.

    I would rather have someone have to CHOOSE what they wish to equip, given a limited parameter of possibilities. The end result - limited number of, power restricted gear, in a quest - is about the same either way; only one way allows the player to choose and the other does not.

    Not being able to choose, especially for something that you will carry in EVERY QUEST, and will effect you in EVERY QUEST, is not fun.

    A percentage roll of 25, 33, 50% depending on how many chests are in the quest [if you encounter a chest every few minutes or if there are two chests side by side], is a much more flexible way of controlling the "drop rate" of magic items.

    As for End Rewards, they are not that overpowered to begin with. Most End Rewards have been there since inception. The only change they have received, for the most part, is Augment slots. Not that big a deal. They add alot of character to the adventurer though. Having a Sword of Inquisition that I have won by serving the Church of the Silver Flame as it's champion by defeating the corrupt Abbot is much more PnP than "oh, I pulled a +1 longsword of ghost touch from a barrel.

    It still has ML and must be chosen to be equipped. I could have 50 magic items in the bank, if I can only equip 5 of them, then how much of a difference is that from only having 5 magic items at all?

    Don't forget, death consequences will cause some magic items to be destroyed. If you limit your character to a handful of items, you might run out. LOL.
    Last edited by zefjoe; 10-05-2013 at 12:19 PM.

  14. #34
    Community Member zefjoe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    far, far away...
    Posts
    220

    Default Take a look...

    http://ddowiki.com/page/Named_chest_loot
    http://ddowiki.com/page/Named_quest_rewards

    Look at some of these items and think - when would you get them? Using ML = level x 2 [for levels 1-5] look at what you might pull from a chest and what you might choose for a Reward. Add up the ML's [REMINDER, if there is no listed ML, it is a 1 not a freebie].

    Let's say you are level 5. You have 10 ML's to spend. Look at your choices. You can load up on alot of ML 1 and 2 stuff, having between 5-7 items. Don't forget, those ML's are for everything equipped AND carried; armor, robes, weapons, wearables, jewelry, backup weapons, bow, +1 arrows {ML 1}, wands?.

    or you can limit the items to a few more powerful ones - 3 ML3's and 1 ML1. Two really good weapons, a piece of armor and a Korthos item.

    Either way, at level 5, this character is NOT "geared up" by DDO standards. Does he seem Pnp-ish? If so then I think we're on the right track. More PnP like than a regular DDO static group, not so restrictive that a player can't have fun choices.

  15. #35
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    236

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by zefjoe View Post
    "The problem with chests is that they contain "n" instances of treasure where n = party size. If only one person opens the chest and loots it, and distributes that loot to the party, then I think you can open all chests and dispense with the % rolls altogether."

    So, only the "chosen" character looking into the chest will be able to pull "his" instance of treasure and then dole it out? 1 magic item up for bid? And the odds that it is anything anyone wants?
    If every player has the option for loot NOT to be based on class, I don't see the problem. If every chest is being opened, multiple people will get a turn. It can be round-robin or roll for it or whatever. Fact is, only the magic item will really matter. If two or more people want it, let them roll for it like we do in THAC0.


    Let's say a quest has 3 chests. My way - there are 3 sets of treasure which is a guaranteed number assuming success. Your way, the number of sets of treasure will be 0 or 6 or 12 or 18. For any given quest, 3 magic items is probably sufficient for a pnp style. Do you really want 18 magic items in a quest? Or 0?
    Last edited by Magiker; 10-05-2013 at 05:05 PM.

  16. #36
    Community Member DrowsworD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    the other side of No Where
    Posts
    156

    Default

    Addressing some of the later items that were brought up, here are some of my thoughts.

    Chests and Looting:
    I like the idea of everyone making their own choices. Limiting the number of chests opened by the group and everyone getting what was allotted to them seems a reasonable way to limit magic. Yes, there is a chance that we get all the chests in the dungeon, there is a chance we get none.
    One thing I am not clear on is whether the % chance to open a chest is per group or per member. Does one person roll and their roll determine if the group loots the chest, or does each person roll and that determines if THAT person loots the chest? Some people may have poor rolls and not get a chest at all.
    We could modify the group roll method further by setting a min/max along with a %-chance. That is, we roll to see if a chest is opened (X% chance). If that one was not opened then the next has an X+% chance. The percent chance to open increases until it a chest is opened. Once a chest is opened the chance goes back to X%. Also, set a maximum number of chests depending on level and difficulty of quests; 1 – 5 = one chest, higher levels get a chance to open 2 or more chests per quests.
    Swapping gear and other treasure and a group money pool is encouraged. We help each other out since it benefits the group if your team mate is properly equipped.

    Magic:
    Limiting magic owned by a character based on level seems appropriate. I would add a few ideas to the mix.
    Potions: cure potions are “first aid kits” and can be used/owned to a limit as proposed. They can be purchased from vendors or found and shared among the team. Other potions that are found in quests can be used in the quest only. They are unstable and will break down after being removed from their protective container so you cannot carry them from quest to quest.

    Scrolls:
    Scrolls found in quests can be used within the quest and are stable enough to be kept . Doing otherwise will limit wizard spells. Spells would not be “learned” with a quest, as this takes special preparation and more time that the DDO counter indicates.
    Scrolls can be used by mages and clerics during combat since they have to drop their weapon to do this. There is also a chance the scroll will fail if they are attacked, depending on level and concentration score.

    Potions cannot be “hot barred”. The idea is that you are not going to be able to dig into your pack, or grab the proper item from your belt, pop the waxed and corked seal on a potion and drink it while you are fighting for your life with one hand – or two.
    If you can disengage from combat, reduce aggro and escape from the melee without something attacking you, you might be able to do this. But you leave your friends exposed and without your help. I think this is unrealistic. During combat you have to rely on your skill and your cleric or other healer.

    Wands cannot be purchased and must be found in quests. They can be used and carried from quest to quest. Since they are like weapons, they can be hot barred and swapped out during combat. They count toward the ML max for items depending on the ML value.
    Other magic items; gloves, rings, etc, cannot be hot-barred or swapped out during combat. You can change out equipment before a fight, but not during.

    Classes and Races:
    I think we should stick wih the basic races: Elf, Half-elf, Human, Dwarf, Halfling – no Drow, Half-orc, Warforged. For classes we should eliminate Artificer, Barbarian, Monk, and maybe Druid, although the latter two were added later in PnP.
    I have limited experience with multi-classes but feel that a multi-class character will not be as “skilled” as a single class. That is, a 4/4 multi-class is not equivalent in skills/power, etc as an 8-level character.

    Shrines:
    Much of the purpose of this experiment is to limit magic and make players more dependent on their skills and not the crutches. Although I could see the shrine area as “safes pots” where members can rest and recoup, as we did in PnP with very long quests, but there are no “random encounters” in these areas or indications that “you cannot rest here, Enemies are near”.
    I agree that we should limit shrine use to recoup SP only and even that to a limited usage per quest. This would be dependent on level/difficulty or quest.

    Storage, packs and bars:
    Limiting storage is another method of limiting magic/equipment. One pack slot for items carried “outside” the pack; extra light weapons, scrolls. These items can be hot-barred and accessed during combat.
    Other bulkier stuff is inside the pack (one pack slot) and cannot be accessed during combat. We can limit the number of hot bars that contain items; weapons, scrolls, etc. and the number of pack slots we are allowed. Other hot bars would be linked to skills, spells, etc.

    Quivers are limited to one (1). Potions and other equipment are in the pack and cannot be accessed during combat.
    These limits are set before a quest begins. Whatever we find inside the quest can fill other slots but you must reduce your storage to the proper limit before starting a new quest.

  17. #37
    Community Member zefjoe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    far, far away...
    Posts
    220

    Default Excellent...

    Chests and Looting: How about
    Common random chests [brown ones] get a 1d6 roll by the party leader or designee. A 1 [16.6% chance] allows the chest to be looted by all.
    Ornate boss chests [red, black or odd type ones] get a 1d3 roll by the party leader or designee. A 1 [33% chance] allows the chest to be looted by all.
    End chests are always looted.
    End Rewards can always be taken.


    This is a bit simpler to remember from chest to chest in a quest. Higher level quests will drop better items. Upping the chances of looting those chests I think defeats the purpose of trying to keep gear limited but with enough gear for choices.

    I really am stuck on End Rewards. I think it adds so much - ambience - to the character by having an End Reward. Not to mention that many have properties that are so useful that without them a player can be handicapped [Ghost Touch items, bane items, Lore items etc.]. These items are still limited by their ML level, so equipping them is a tough choice.

    Potions: how about
    Found potions of any type can be kept.
    Potions of any type can be bought, but are limited to 5 STACKS of 16 of any type brought into a quest. = 5 pint sized canteens/flagons. A lot when you think about it, severely limits you in what you can have.
    This includes HEALING potions of any type.
    Healing/cure items can be obtained from collectors provided you got the collectibles from questing. No collectibles (or rewards from collectibles) allowed from outside sources such as AH or alts.


    "Other potions that are found in quests can be used in the quest only. They are unstable and will break down after being removed from their protective container so you cannot carry them from quest to quest."

    This may be hard to implement - you'd have to keep found potions separate and then remember to destroy them before exiting the quest. I can foresee this becoming neglected and an accumulation building up.

    "Potions cannot be “hot barred”. The idea is that you are not going to be able to dig into your pack...I think this is unrealistic. During combat you have to rely on your skill and your cleric or other healer."

    I like this idea, it adds some gritty realism. However drinking a potion interrupts combat actions already, doesn't it? It would also be kind of hard to enforce.

    Wands and Scrolls:
    "Wands and Scrolls found in quests can be used within the quest and are stable enough to be kept. Doing otherwise will limit wizard spells. Spells would not be “learned” with a quest, as this takes special preparation and more time that the DDO counter indicates. Wands and Scrolls can be used by mages and clerics during combat since they have to drop their weapon to do this. There is also a chance the scroll will fail if they are attacked, depending on level and concentration score.'

    Should wands and scrolls be purchasable? If so they might be limited in number and stacks. I personally think this just adds way too much metagamng. The point of being a caster is that the magic ability is within YOU. Wands are just a cheesy way of trying to "extend" the blue bar. Scrolls allow wizards to learn how to manifest the spell power within them. So they can be used to inscribe for that purpose. Which means they could be purchased FOR THAT PURPOSE.

    If we do allow wands to be used I would vote for using just what is found in quest. Wands could be relicts of the ancients and not able to be made now. [Vendors notwithstanding].
    Or
    Perhaps wands could be limited by their ML value adding to the characters ML total. Reducing the number being brought into a quest.

    Classes and Races:
    "I think we should stick wih the basic races: Elf, Half-elf, Human, Dwarf, Halfling – no Drow, Half-orc, Warforged."

    It's been debated whether Drow, and the Half-humans are overpowered. I would say no. The only race that could possibly be too op is Warforged but I would hate to ruins someones fun by excluding just that one race.

    "For classes we should eliminate Artificer, Barbarian, Monk, and maybe Druid, although the latter two were added later in PnP."

    Like you say Monk and Druid are PnP. However, Druids just tank may connection something horrible. Very bad lag when they are near by. I don't like'em because of it.

    "I have limited experience with multi-classes but feel that a multi-class character will not be as “skilled” as a single class. That is, a 4/4 multi-class is not equivalent in skills/power, etc as an 8-level character."

    LOL, that's exactly why I love to multi-class. I makes you more reliant on playing smart vs. playing powered. It's easy to quest with a Half-orc fighter, all geared up with a two handed axe and the requisite Feats and go wading into the middle of the enemy swinging away like you're cutting wheat. NO CHALLENGE. Now go into a quest with a Drow rogue-cleric-wizard. Takes a lot more thought and skill.

    how about
    Allowed races include everything.
    Allowed classes include everything f2p [not those purchasable].
    Multiclassing is allowed but with restrictions -
    - Non-humans can have up to 3 classes and must level up alternately between classes, with no more than 2 levels difference between classes.
    - Humans [and thus half-human hybrids] can only dual class and must level in blocks of 5, before changing classes.
    - no splashing


    Shrines: how about
    Level 1-5 = no shrine use - Echoes of Power will keep you running
    Level 6-10 = 1 shrine use per quest for mana restoration only - caster needs to be nearly fully healed [no more than 10hp down] before use
    Level 11-15 = 2 shrine use per quest for mana restoration only - caster needs to be nearly fully healed [no more than 10hp down] before use
    Level 16-20 = no shrine use - by this time a dedicated caster should have SLA's and/or the ability to restore some magic


    Storage, packs and bars:
    "Limiting storage is another method of limiting magic/equipment. One pack slot for items carried “outside” the pack; extra light weapons, scrolls. These items can be hot-barred and accessed during combat."

    Varhann had a similar suggestion of one tab being for potions and hotbar stuff. This could be abused however by storing just about anything in the tab, giving 2 pack spaces.

    "Other bulkier stuff is inside the pack (one pack slot) and cannot be accessed during combat. We can limit the number of hot bars that contain items; weapons, scrolls, etc. and the number of pack slots we are allowed. Other hot bars would be linked to skills, spells, etc."

    This will quickly devolve into current DDO standard.

    how about:
    the FIRST pack tab is the ONLY tab accessible while in a quest or wilderness. The others act as quick banks or pack mule or porter or whatever you wish to role play [NOTE this means aquired items in quest can be PUT INTO other tabs to carry, just not ACCESSABLE.] If a character is lucky enough to acquire a Portable Hole, that converted pack space could be used as such. Any bags such as Gems, Collectibles or Essences that are gotten in game are allowed [from quest givers or vendors], but cannot be purchased through the DDO store.

    Gear: how about
    Level 1-5; ML = level x 2
    Level 6-10; ML = level x3
    Level 11-15; ML = level x4
    Level 16-20; ML = level x5

    Fortification items get reduced ML. Light Fort item = 1, Moderate = 2, and Heavy = 3 ML. If the item has something else with the Fortification the ML is multiplied by .25/.50/.75 and rounded up.

    Weapon sets equipped and carried in pack be at most:
    - 2 main weapons
    - 2 secondary weapons [light at most]

    then
    - 1 shield

    or
    - 1 bow [xbow]
    - 1 quiver [wide or narrow]

    Each player only gets ONE article of gear for each armor/wearable equip slot that is large and or covers the body. So ONE piece of armor, outfit or robe, ONE headgear, ONE set of bracers, ONE cloak, ONE set of boots.
    Each player can carry two pair of smaller items, so TWO pair of Gloves, Rings, Necklaces, Trinkets, etc.


    I think we are getting closer to a final ruleset. I would like to see more people post their thoughts about this last post. Do you think it carries that "old school" flavor. Is it restricting enough without limiting choices? Could you abide by it, and play in the spirit of what it is trying to accomplish?
    Last edited by zefjoe; 10-06-2013 at 02:22 PM.

  18. #38
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    236

    Default

    This is shaping up to be a regular DDO group. Way too much magic.

  19. #39
    Community Member Varhann's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Philly
    Posts
    270

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by zefjoe View Post

    I think we are getting closer to a final ruleset. I would like to see more people post their thoughts about this last post. Do you think it carries that "old school" flavor. Is it restricting enough without limiting choices? Could you abide by it, and play in the spirit of what it is trying to accomplish?
    I have to agree that we are getting closer, but I also have to agree with Magiker that there seems to be too much magic.

    Under the current system proposed and just guessing an average, everyone will have about 10-15 magic items before we leave the Harbor. Granted they can only "equip" a certain ML worth, they will still have a **** load of magic items in the backpack/bank. What 3rd level characters have that much to chose from. Definitely not PnP style.

    Choices are great, but too many choices are going to bad for play. Sometimes luck of the draw should rule the day.

    I think quest end rewards should be out, but Chain end rewards should be included. If you want to look at from a PnP viewpoint, here is an example.

    Guard X asks the party to enter this warehouse and kill some kobolds. Party does the job and Guard X offers everyone in the group a magic item. What? Where the heck did lowly Guard X get 6 magic items to reward us with. He's just a guard.
    This seem ridiculous to anyone else but me.

    Chain rewards on the other hand are given by People of Import for completing a campaign of quests with an ongoing story. These rewards make sense to me.


    I'm still not sold on the idea of buying potions. This is easy mode DDO. No matter how much you limit them, always having self healing available is easy mode.

    Everything else looks good to me. I think we are heading in a good direction.

  20. #40
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    236

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Varhann View Post
    I have to agree that we are getting closer, but I also have to agree with Magiker that there seems to be too much magic.

    Under the current system proposed and just guessing an average, everyone will have about 10-15 magic items before we leave the Harbor. Granted they can only "equip" a certain ML worth, they will still have a **** load of magic items in the backpack/bank. What 3rd level characters have that much to chose from. Definitely not PnP style.

    Choices are great, but too many choices are going to bad for play. Sometimes luck of the draw should rule the day.

    I think quest end rewards should be out, but Chain end rewards should be included. If you want to look at from a PnP viewpoint, here is an example.

    Guard X asks the party to enter this warehouse and kill some kobolds. Party does the job and Guard X offers everyone in the group a magic item. What? Where the heck did lowly Guard X get 6 magic items to reward us with. He's just a guard.
    This seem ridiculous to anyone else but me.

    Chain rewards on the other hand are given by People of Import for completing a campaign of quests with an ongoing story. These rewards make sense to me.


    I'm still not sold on the idea of buying potions. This is easy mode DDO. No matter how much you limit them, always having self healing available is easy mode.

    Everything else looks good to me. I think we are heading in a good direction.
    Agreed.

    About shrines, they're just a bad idea. They remove tactical decision-making about spell casting. They remove tactical decision-making about spell selection. Its a damn easy button.

Page 2 of 8 FirstFirst 123456 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload