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  1. #1
    Community Member zefjoe's Avatar
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    Default New storm brewing

    This is to announce the reboot of the low magic, gear restricted, D&D style gameplay group of STORM, which itself was an initiative brought forth by THACO guild members and other players wishing to try out the gamestyle.

    For those unfamiliar with the ideaology behind this gamestyle it is simply this:

    To take the magic rich, Monty Haul bonanaza of items and min/maxed, ship buffed, geared upped "toons" that permeate DDO and reduce-limit-restrict-bend them to more resemble old school PnP D&D. The exact nature of "old school" differs depending on who you ask, but I think it is safe to assume that we all wish for the same kind of "feel" to the game. It's not any particular edition of D&D that you might have used, since others may have used another. It's hard to articulate, but we all know it when we experience brief moments of it. That feeling of adventure and challenge with your team mates. Winning against tough odds facing a plethora of creatures. The joy of finding loot, gear and weapons that are wondrous in nature but oh so rare to come by. Gaining experience to become the type of adventurer character [not TOON] that you've envisioned. Be it a traditional pure class or some imaginative hybrid, you wish to imbue a character with abilities and history and tales to tell.

    For those who have followed the THACO and STORM threads, you know what it is we seek, and the trials and tribulations that have come about because of it. Much knowledge and experience has been gained in various ways to attain the elusive "feel" of old school PnP.

    This intro is intended to bring forth the various ideas and methods developed so far and have those members of the Forums, both interested in starting a new group(s) and those that just wish to give advice, to make suggestions so that final decisions can be established for a "ruleset" / guideline that will - hopefully - be able to stand the test of time and remain unchanged. The reason being that a changing ruleset has proven in the past to be too distracting and disruptive for some, and rightly so.

    Once a "ruleset" is established a new thread can be created with those wishing to play announcing their intentions, introducing their characters and telling their tales.

    This new group(s) will be a separate entity from any other guild. Whether the players will wish to start as a new guild or just remain as a static group, it will be up to them. But the players will be answerable only to themselves, and any future decisions concerning changes to the ruleset will be on them.

    I will introduce a new topic for suggestion and consideration once every day, to allow people to chime in with their thoughts. Once a topic has been narrowed down to 1 or 2 possibilities it will be tabled for later for the group to vote on once that group is filled and ready to roll up. Hopefully by this time next week well be ready to see who wants to play and roll up.

    I know this may seem like a long time to debate, but from past experience it is really necessary to nail this stuff down before we begin, to keep changes to as little as possible.

  2. #2
    Community Member zefjoe's Avatar
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    Default First topic

    To begin with, the hardest topic to find consensus should lead off.

    Death consequence. To BE or NOT to BE. If one desires to play permadeath, there are plenty of guilds out there for that. This play style advocates LESS MAGIC, LESS GEAR - MORE CHARACTER.

    There have been countless debates and ideas suggested in the THACO posts about death consequence. What some liked others didn't and there was never a consensus. We finally settled on the dead character - unable to be raised - exiting the quest and the loss of XP. AND the point becomes moot once a Cleric or Paladin can raise dead. So apropos I suggest:

    choice 1) a dead character unable to be raised - exits the quest and loses XP
    choice 2) a dead character unable to be raised - rides in the pack of another and at end of quest destroys everything equipped

    or

    choice 2a) gives one piece of equipment to each character present in a round robin until both equipped and packed items are "looted"

    This method gives choices [choices are good things]
    1) keep your stuff but lose XP
    2) lose your stuff but keep XP
    2a) lose your stuff, but to your mates, and keep XP

    Once a character can be raised in quest, then a "sacrifice" of 1 equipped item could be the cost of the divine granting power to be raised.

    If a soul stone [i.e body] cannot be retrieved, say from lava or behind some obstruction, but the character could be raised, then the player could lose all gear - both equipped and in the back pack [more on pack encumbrance later*] - as a price the divine requires for retrieving the body.

    I advocate both 1) and 2) - 2a). Having a choice will suit more people, and both methods are costly depending on who you ask. And the concept is simple - your stuff vs. your xp.

    Lets have some comments and suggestions. And please explain your reasons. Are the basic premise's that I advocate wrong for the feel or too forgiving or not harsh enough?

  3. #3
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    Default

    I'll start by saying that I'm not overly familiar with your process, only what I've read here which has me interested so far.

    I'll say that option 2b seems bad for a couple reasons. Nobody likes losing all their gear. I'm assuming that any gear acquired with your rule set if very hard earned. However, I don't think it serves to help a cooperative atmosphere to have your group mates pick through your belongings after you die to keep them for themselves. If I were such a groupmate I'd actually feel bad about doing that. The player died and in a cooperative group, at least part of that falls on me if I'm still alive, even if to just a small extent. To think that I should be rewarded in some way for the death of a friend and ally just seems wrong to me.

    Like I said, I only know of your rules what I've read here so maybe I'm out of line, but I'd never want to loot the body of an ally for my own personal gain. If you are roleplaying alignments and such, them maybe it adds a certain dynamic to the game, but I didn't get the impression that was the case.

    If you're just out for having fun in a cooperative atmosphere, go with option A. A player dies, they recall/exit. No xp. If anything, everyone else left alive should lose a piece of gear as a sort of offering to the dead and as compensation for losing a groupmate.
    Kaarloe - Degenerate Matter - Argonnessen

  4. #4
    Community Member DrowsworD's Avatar
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    Default

    I feel that death and the lose of XP - and chests you may miss out on - are punishment enough for dying in quest. I would also add that if ANY item is permanently damaged, then it is damaged beyond repair, cannot be used and must be destroyed before the next quest. There is a chance of this on death. Other gear has to be repaired - cannot be used in next quest if damaged - so if you don't have enough coin to repair the damage, you will have to sell something in order to repair what you need.

    In the scenario where your friends loot your bady and then you are resurrected naked and defenseless, what would stop your group from giving you all your stuff back? (Sorry man. I was just holding it for ya.) As redspecter said, with reduced chests and low magic, every item is hard won. Sure the chance of losing it is incentive not to die, but at what cost to the group? What good am I to the group if in the next quest I am poorly geared?

    I would concede to giving up one item of worn equipment - not pack trash - to appease the powers that revive me. So I propose we decide on either:

    1) keep stuff, lose XP

    2) keep all but one item, ride in pack

    I propose the rule to destroy any item permanently damaged in addition to these rules.

  5. #5
    Community Member Varhann's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by zefjoe View Post

    choice 1) a dead character unable to be raised - exits the quest and loses XP
    choice 2) a dead character unable to be raised - rides in the pack of another and at end of quest destroys everything equipped

    or

    choice 2a) gives one piece of equipment to each character present in a round robin until both equipped and packed items are "looted"

    This method gives choices [choices are good things]
    1) keep your stuff but lose XP
    2) lose your stuff but keep XP
    2a) lose your stuff, but to your mates, and keep XP

    Once a character can be raised in quest, then a "sacrifice" of 1 equipped item could be the cost of the divine granting power to be raised.

    If a soul stone [i.e body] cannot be retrieved, say from lava or behind some obstruction, but the character could be raised, then the player could lose all gear - both equipped and in the back pack [more on pack encumbrance later*] - as a price the divine requires for retrieving the body.

    I advocate both 1) and 2) - 2a). Having a choice will suit more people, and both methods are costly depending on who you ask. And the concept is simple - your stuff vs. your xp.

    Lets have some comments and suggestions. And please explain your reasons. Are the basic premise's that I advocate wrong for the feel or too forgiving or not harsh enough?
    I don't think I could agree with using anything but choice 1. My reasons for this are if you are going to lose all your gear in a severely gear restricted ruleset, you might as well be playing Permadeath..

    Choice 2 leads to unbalance between those who have to put themselves in danger most often and those who can stay back and play it safe. I can foresee every rogue we have always having no gear.

    Choice 2a would lead to rewarding the group for someone loss . Not a good way to build teamwork.

  6. #6
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varhann View Post
    I don't think I could agree with using anything but choice 1.
    Yeah, it's not really much of a choice. It's kinda like choosing between:

    1) Take a kick to the junk
    2) Have your junk removed
    3) Have your junk removed then given as a trophy to your friends so we can all remember that time you had your junk removed.

    Some groups might find this style of play quite humorous for a while, but I can't see it being fun over a length of time.
    Kaarloe - Degenerate Matter - Argonnessen

  7. #7
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DrowsworD View Post
    I feel that death and the lose of XP - and chests you may miss out on - are punishment enough for dying in quest. I would also add that if ANY item is permanently damaged, then it is damaged beyond repair, cannot be used and must be destroyed before the next quest. There is a chance of this on death.
    Although many items are damaged due to death, death NEVER causes permanent damage to an item. It is always repairable to it's normal durability.

    I agree with everyone else on the "loot the body of your comrade" option - bad.

    Also, would like to point out as a former member of STORM that option #1 (exit quest, lose xp) is not as easy at it seems. Consider this - the group moves slower than a normal PUG. Sometimes much slower. You meet only once or twice a week for a couple hours. Here are two real scenarios that have happened more than a couple times:

    1. You die early in the quest. Exit the quest. You can HEAR the other players, but you see nothing. You are sitting in a tavern as your character, but as a real person you get to sit alone at your computer and listen to the others having a good time while you get more bored as time wears on. It might be your only time to play DDO during the week, or perhaps half your time allotted. Whatever. Now it is spent sitting at the Wayward Lobster watching trade and advice chat. How fun. So you wonder if they will finish the quest in 20 minutes or in an hour. Will there be time for a second quest? Maybe, so do you log off or wait? You decide to wait because everyone thinks it will be only a few minutes. Nope, they run into problems and it takes 45 minutes. Well at least NOW you get to rejoin the group on a quest. Oh, except that 2 players have to quit early tonight due to r/l issues, so the remaining 4 decide it's best to wait until everyone is present to run the next quest because it's a part of a chain series.

    2. You just fought your way through over an hour of battles, sometimes carrying the team with your skill and power. You enter the last battle with the end-boss and begin beating the snot out of him. Then you take a few hits from the mobs you have aggro'd and the boss suddenly smacks you with a critical hit, instantly killing you. You may have been the hero, but now you just spent the entire evening playing and are rewarded with exactly zero xp, and even if your group loots the end chest you miss out on that too.

    That my friends is real experience talking. So before thinking option #1 is not so bad, consider if you like the idea of an evening being spent that way.

  8. #8
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    I do recall we played with another death consequence option which was simply the "no loot" from end chest, and not getting to play but you ride along in a backpack at least able to watch the action in black and white. You gain xp at the end.

    We also had an option where if a character died early in the quest, the quest was abandoned and another quest was attempted. The abandoned quest would wait until the following week.

  9. #9
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    I'd like to caution those folk who feel that losing gear is too much to ask. You're being asked to step away from the DDO mindset. Run ungeared through Korthos and, when you're comfortable with that, you'll understand. If you can't shake the DDO "gear" mindset, you won't ever have fun in this type of playstyle.

    There is another option: if you or your soulstone cannot reach the exit, then you destroy all equipped/backpack gear. This generally only occurs on a TPK or the situation where your soulstone is stuck in lava or in a nasty trap. No loss of XP if the party succeeds, and no loss of gear unless you don't make it out.

  10. #10
    Founder & Hero cdbd3rd's Avatar
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    Body looting...

    At first I thought it would be a proper PnP thing, as that was pretty standard for losing party members. The others scavenge what is valuable/useful and carry on.

    But replies have made a good point, and I see that that would be better left to Permadeath groups.


    Now remembering how things went in my old gaming days - on both sides of the DM screens...
    Trying to get a low-level character raised was sometimes possible, but ALWAYS expensive. Not just for the character, but for the party. Often a large portion of the treasure & magic that had been gained would be donated for the local church's services.

    That makes a difficult translation to DDO with the glut of magical vendor junk.

    So forfeiture of the rest of treasure in current quest certainly seems appropriate. PnP chests don't change contents when each party member looks in, so the 'dead' character could still be raised into non-active status, and his/her chest contents doled out to the other party members.


    However... (and I know I'm beginning to waffle some here.)

    Old Raise spells came with a certain amount of wear/tear on the body and mind of the raised character. So that would support a dead character recalling from the quest and losing the XPs for that run. Of course, doing that over-rides my thoughts on body looting.


    ------

    Maintaining "low magic" on characters.
    This will be tough if you really want to stick to PnP flavor. DDO characters are given magic weapons almost immediately upon creation. PnP groups would be lucky to have a single +1 weapon among them for the start of their adventuring, and maybe all in group would have +1s by late 2nd level or 3rd.

    Perhaps limit weapons/items to those usable by HALF their current character level, rounded down?

    ------

    Not much decision-making help in all that, but hopefully helps add some points to ponder during the rulemaking process.

    I like the overall concept, hope it turns out good.
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  11. #11
    The Hatchery sirgog's Avatar
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    One issue I think you will run into is that in DDO there are just so many chests acquired per experience level.

    In 3.5 P&P, you'd get an average 40 encounters from say level 5 to 8. Translates to 40 DDO chests.

    In DDO, going from 5 to 8 you will likely encounter between 200 and 500 chests because the XP gained per encounter is so much lower than in paper.

    Maybe one rule to consider is that players may only use items from final chests in quests (other than obvious quality of life items like using the Korthos expeditious retreat boots). If you want to use an end reward you can, but you need to surrender your end chest item to do so.
    I don't have a zerging problem.

    I'm zerging. That's YOUR problem.

  12. #12
    2015 DDO Players Council Hazelnut's Avatar
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    Default My thoughts on ...

    Consequences of Death

    If the group is going to restrict what is taken from chest (or which chests are opened), then destroying a "worn item" is a bad idea for a consequence of death. People won't have spare equipment. That will result in an increased likelihood of dying again. This will do more to discourage teamwork. Giving up everything only exaggerates the problem.

    Using a more role-play argument, when sailors died at sea (in the age of sailing ships), their belonging were sold off and the proceeds given to the sailor's next-of-kin. The other sailors on the ship paid for the funeral (most often it was burial at sea and didn't cost anything). Those would be the closest to real world adventurers. And, at least in the PnP I used to play, we looked at history as a way to bring flavor to the quests.

    So, basically, I'm in agreement with most other. Intentional loss of equipment as a consequence of death is a bad idea. It will upset the loyalty and sense of teamwork.

    I'm going add an "option 3" to the list of choices....

    Options 3: If someone dies, the group can use a rest shrine and resurrection shrine to bring that player back. Since this is not a perma-death group, the PnP argument is simple. The person isn't dead, just badly injured. The group needs to rest for a full day to give him/her a chance to heal-up. I would suggest the group consider abandoning the quest if there is more than one "death". One badly injured person is unfortunate. Two indicates the group is not ready. Granted, this isn't exactly THAC0, but if the group is going to keep going on a quest after one of the team dies, it's not exactly my understanding of PnP to keep going on a quest when someone dies, except in extreme circumstances.

    Destruction of Damaged items

    Someone suggested that any item that receives permanent damaged be considered beyond repair and destroyed. As with the first argument, this is probably going to mean nobody has anything for very long and people are going to consider their own limited equipment over the rest of the team. Perm damage is pretty easy to come by. Plus DDO already has a built in mechanic for that sort of thing. The whole permanent damage system gradually reduces the toughness of the item until it is useless. I would strongly vote against throwing an item away just because it's been damaged a bit.

    Of course, changing how equipment can be obtained would make the consequences of loss less of a concern. But then it stops being low magic if every chest is opened. It really is a tough choice.

    In General

    I think whatever rules are put in place should promote teamwork as well as making the game more fun. The low magic makes the quests more challenging, which promotes teamwork because everyone has to work together. The increased challenge also makes it more fun. Ultimately fun is what it's about.

    I don't really know what is best or what would work in the long run. I like that the final rules will be voted on by the team.
    Zyinniah Hazelnut and Curissa Hazelnut on most servers.

  13. #13
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Default On Magic

    One thought I had a long time ago, but was rejected, was this in regards to magic:

    You are allowed to keep as much magic as you want within these guidlines:

    Weapons, Shields, Armor:
    1. Any item that is a simple + to enhancement (+1, +2, +3, etc) is allowed. Keep as many as you can carry based on rules of encumbrance.
    2. Any item that has a prefix/suffix is NOT allowed. No flaming, no frost, no holy, no lascerating, etc.
    3. Any NAMED items are allowed, but these are unique. Only one person in the party may own any particular named item unless the description makes it obvious that more than one of this named items was made. So if you find a Bloody Cleaver you can keep it, but as per the description it is obviously a one of a kind item, so no one else in the party should have it. Or if you happen to snag a Coronation Shield, you can keep it AND if someone else gets one, they can too because based on the description, 12 of these babies exist.
    4. Need something to overcome DR? Aside from named items that may have the desired effect, you can use silver, cold iron, byeshk, adamantite, etc. Except they would need to be of the non-prefix/non-suffix variety. A +3 silver longsword is fine if you can find one.
    5. Consumable magic items of any type are allowed. You can use bane arrows, flaming bolts, holy throwing axes, etc. You can turn in collectables for magic arrows and such as well.
    6. Augment slots are fine if found on otherwise allowable magic items.

    Clothing and Jewelry:
    1. You may only have 1 item for each slot, with the exception of search/spot items. You can have one of each search and spot even if they are both goggles, or if you have a ring of spot and two other rings with magic. In other words, the search and spot items are in addition to the one per slot rule.
    2. Add 2 to the ML requirement on these items. Instead of using those +3 STR gloves at L5, you must be L7.
    3. Named items are allowed with the same restrictions as above in the weapons section.
    4. Augment slots are fine if found on otherwise allowable magic items. Keep in mind that this raises the ML of the item though!

    I think something like this will be sustainable throughout due to named items helping at higher levels, lets characters have some choices and some nice equipment without filling 3 backpacks full of stuff, and keeps the monty haul down by restricting prefix/suffix items and making the ML of other items higher and having to choose only 1 item per slot for gloves, boots, etc. Do you want feather fall boots or striding boots or dex boots? You can't have them all, so choose wisely!

  14. #14
    Community Member DrowsworD's Avatar
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    Wow this is hard. If all our rules take this much debate we may never see the inside of a dungeon.

    I understand Fedora's point a bit more about XP loss vs equipment loss. Dying, and the long wait in a tavern with nothing to do but convalesce, would be boring and a waste of playing time. So is riding in someone's backpack. Either way, you also lose out on the limited amount of gear we already get.

    We have several questions to answer:

    What are the consequences of a team member dying? lose of XP, gear, both, none

    If you recall and sit out in the tavern, you keep your gear. You also lose XP and don't gain any new gear from the quest. This results in a boring wait for everyone to get back to the tavern, unless you log out and play elsewhere. Not exactly a team-building exercise either way.

    If you stay in quest and the team carries your reduced body and gear - in the form of a SS - to the end you keep what XP you earned but lose out on gear. Not as bad but you still have that boring ride in 'limbo' for the duration of the quest and the lose of quest gear.

    With either of these choices, tavern or stone, you lose the chance at new gear. Either way, you have a boring time where you are not actively adventuring. Can we find an alternative that keeps with our idea of
    low-magic AND prevent the non-boring aspects of dying?

    Are we really dead?

    I also see where Hazelnut is going with the idea of "not really dead". If the "dead" member will be alive when we get back to the tavern, maybe they are not truly dead. Maybe they are incapacitated and - "look a holy shrine in the midst of this smelly sewer. The gods must shine down on us truly. For the cost 'X' we can heal our fallen comrade and continue." If this was an option there should be a penalty of 'no chest rewards' or something to offset the shrine use. Or, this could be looked on as a "safe haven" in the dungeon where an 'injured' member could rest until they are ready to continue. Only usable once per quest as the monsters will find you the second time.

    Using a shrine to resurrect a fallen companion could be abused, however. If a mage or cleric is running low on HP/SP they could just "oops I died" and get back to full health and vigor to continue. This is not in the spirit of what we are trying to do here and may have group repercussions, but it could happen.

    Will we find that quests will be too hard if we are short one man?

    If quest level, difficulty level and group level are adequately balanced we may find it is impossible to defeat a quest if someone dies. If the tank or mage (wiz/sorc) is gone, there goes most of our firepower. If the cleric dies, there goes the only healing we have to keep the others alive. The thief's demise will spell trouble if we can't open that ONE door or get through a particular trapped section. Everyone is needed, else you wouldn't necessarily be here.

    Fedora mentioned one scenario where, if someone dies early in a quest, everyone exits and another quest is attempted. What if you are half-way through, near the end. We all know that the main fight is at the end so if you are a man short and low on supplies (including SP), can you defeat the end boss?

    More stuff to ponder and still no true answer to the question.

  15. #15
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    It might be best for the two remaining STORM members to propose an explicit ruleset (upon which people can comment). Because, based on the direction of the conversation so far, it seems that Storm 2.0 is going to look ALOT like Storm 1.0

  16. #16
    Community Member zefjoe's Avatar
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    Default Second Topic

    LOL, I didn't think too many would like either choice. Many of you are worried about gear. This is actually the next topic, and once you see the options there it might adjust your thinking about losing gear. Keep in mind that this playstyle is intended to change up the usual DDO style play. Dying sucks. It's natural to want to minimize the "consequence" of it.

    I agree it's no fun sitting out a quest. And just logging off for the night ruins a fun time with your mates. This to me seems the worst consequence.

    I agree that looting your comrades body would be uncomfortable. Not only would it raise resentment but lead to possible regifting. Not a good option either.

    I think that losing all your gear would not be as devastating as you might think, especially when you see the next topic.

    Riding in the pack as a stone, missing out on the action and chest rewards is "inconvenient" only [you may not be actively playing but you are still a part of the adventure, just ask any of the THACO guys]. Getting the xp with the rest of the team and being "inconvenienced", seems a little too much DDO and not enough D&D. What did everyone do back in the day in PnP? You died, your mates then had to decide if they would leave your body and retrieve it later, or lug it around and finish the quest with it. You didn't get xp and you didn't get chest loot.

    So we have:

    from least to most extreme

    - a dead character unable to be raised - rides in the pack of another until the end of the quest. [Maybe that other must either not engage in combat or dump the stone first.] The dead character misses out on chest loot and the action but gets to share the adventure as a spirit. At the end of the quest the dead character must recall before the finish, losing the xp.

    or

    - If the quest is part of a chain, the option to destroy the highest ML item (1) in possession as sacrifice to the divines to allow the character to finish the quest and advance the chain along with his mates.

    or

    - a dead character unable to be raised and cannot be carried to the end because his stone is unretrievable, then destroys all equipped gear. No loss of XP if the party succeeds in bringing your stone to the end, and no loss of gear unless your body/stone doesn't make it out.


    I think some kind of death consequence is good for that PnP feel of the game. OR is it just me? With nothing left but riding out in a pack and finishing with the rest of the group, it trivializes death. Using a Resurrection shrine to say "oh, mulligan" is to really game the system. This may be a game, but a GOOD game tries to immerse you into it's world. Part of that immersion is attention to detail and that actions have meaning and repercussions.


    The second topic for suggestion is limiting magic gear/items. Of the several different methods of restricting magic items that I have encountered, I thought the most satisfying was Minimum Level [ML] = level# x 2. So if you are a level 5 character, you can equip 10 ML's worth of items.

    Currently THACO uses two die rolls of 1d10. On levels 1-9, a 1 on either roll allows the chest to be looted. Any magic item in the chest can now be equipped regardless of it's ML.[At level 10 that increases to a die roll of 2]. This severely limits gear, both because of the low % chance of getting a chest and the low % chance of there being anything you can use or want. It definitely brings some old school feel to the game, but it confines you to the same very limited gear set for most of your adventuring life and if you are a specialist - like a trapper or a bow user or a caster, most of the time you are going to go without anything useful.

    It's one possibility.

    Another is allowing only 1 magic item of unlimited ML per level to be equipped and/or carried. The problem I foresee with this is that by level 10-12 you have a full compliment of items to fill most of your gear slots and weapon choices. All of unlimited ML power. How is that any different than current DDO?

    The idea is to limit the gear you have, without limiting the choices you want, all the way to cap. If that cap comes at game level 14 then so be it. Nearly all PD guilds encounter this same thing. It is what makes this play style different than regular DDO.

    It became apparent that a scale was needed to keep up with the innate difficulty scaling in the quests as they moved from lowbie to mid to high levels. This difficulty scaling is separate from the Normal-Hard-Elite choices you get, but it is very apparent as one progresses to higher level quests.

    So I suggest:

    Level 1-5; ML = level x 2
    Level 6-10; ML = level x3
    Level 11-15; ML = level x4
    Level 16-20; ML = level x5

    These are the total of ML of combined items that you have, both equipped and carried. At level 5 you can carry 10 ML worth of stuff. Each item has a ML. Add them all up. If you are over 10, you must switch out something to put you at 10 or less.

    Although these may SEEM to be overly generous - especially at higher levels [for the purist], once you begin to really look at ML levels on items - especially class "effective" items - you begin to see that there are still choices that you must make. Do you pick "effective" weapons at the expense of "effective" wearables that boost stats or magic, do you pick defense vs offense, do you specialize at the cost of overall "effectiveness"?

    This method does two important things:
    - it limits magic items, which is a good thing - because it makes choices and choices are always interesting for game play
    - it does not limit choices, which is a good thing - because limited choices cause frustration or boredom.


    This method is fairly simple and not too hard to remember. I think it brings enough "gear" to the table through-out the levels without being too overpowered.

    DDO has a lot of chests through-out quests. But not all chests have anything a player would want, or anything that the others want either. That right there will reduce the amount of items that a player acquires. Having to choose what to equip limits them even more, but still allows for you to equip the way you want.

    Should Wands and scrolls fall into these categories? Wands could be purchasable and their ML levels count towards total ML. I know an issue was brought up that a caster using low ML wands might as well not bother and higher ML wands suck up alot of ML points.

    Agreed, but that is no different than a trapper with his gear or a ranger with twf weapons and bow. Alot of stuff eats into the ML's. That's the point. To have to limit yourself to just a couple of high powered items or spread the ML's around.
    Should Scrolls be limited to just what is found in quest and transcribed into a spell book?

    Along with gear restriction comes "encumbrance". Encumbrance was introduced and explored in THACO and it was found that, to simulate old school encumbrance was too involved and cumbersome. What was finally settled on was a flat 20% of the total weight carryable by your character. This works to a degree, but if you are like me, you store gear overflow in any spot you can. Which means calculating encumbrance is troublesome.

    I suggest:

    Weapon sets equipped and carried in pack be at most:
    - 2 main weapons
    - 2 secondary weapons [light at most]

    then
    - 1 shield

    or
    - 1 bow [xbow]
    - 1 quiver [wide or narrow]

    Each player only gets ONE article of gear for each armor/wearable equip slot that is large and or covers the body. So ONE piece of armor, outfit or robe, ONE headgear, ONE set of bracers, ONE cloak, ONE set of boots. The reason being that we carry a back pack, not a wardrobe.

    Each player can carry two pair of smaller items, so TWO pair of Gloves, Rings, Necklaces, Trinkets, etc. These things will fit into a pack as extra stuff.

    As for the back pack itself, the FIRST pack tab is the ONLY tab accessible while in a quest or wilderness. The others act as quick banks or pack mule or porter or whatever you wish to role play. If a character is lucky enough to acquire a Portable Hole, that converted pack space could be used as such. Any bags such as the Gem, Collectible or Essence that are gotten in game are allowed, but can not be purchased through the DDO store.


    This method will limit you only as much as you allow greed to play into it. I realize that some classes require a bit more gear than others and can eat into their pack space, but this gives a certain restraint to what an adventurer can pull out of his pack. I think it will allow a bit of loot to be carried out of a quest but it might require hard decisions and choices about what to keep and what to leave behind [and choices are a good thing]. This also depends heavily on the honor system, but we are all adults and MY enjoyment won't be ruined by someone packing more than he should.

    I think this brings a good old school feel to questing. You often had to choose to leave stuff behind. That is what made keeping those hard won items fun.

    One other thing encountered with STORM was Fortification.
    Should fortification items (which almost becomes mandatory by level 7+) get reduced ML? The ML for such vitally necessary items eat into your ML limit, more so than any other item you could equip. we could say Light Fort item = 1, Moderate = 2, and Heavy = 3 ML.

    Again, lets have some comments and suggestions. And please explain your reasons. Keep in mind that some other methods have been tried, they can be found in the THACO and STORM threads. Are the basic premise's that I advocate wrong for the feel or is allowing too much gear or not enough. Is it too restrictive for trappers and casters?
    Last edited by zefjoe; 10-03-2013 at 08:21 PM.

  17. #17
    Community Member zefjoe's Avatar
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    Default And more...

    I'm going to jump the gun a little and post the rest of the topics, so that everyone can see the whole of what we are considering. I realize that this may seem a little - obsessive - wanting to discuss and re-discuss these issues. But these issues, these ideas, are the heart and soul of remaking a hack and slash MMO game like DDO into an old school, dungeon crawling D&D experience.

    The third main topic is, in conjunction with limited magic - shrine use - or it's non use and healing.
    Is healing at shrines is even necessary? There will be or should be at least 1 character in the party that will have some kind of healing, and most well thought out parties will have more. This group will not be zerg power playing. There will not be a real need for that much healing, with SMART - i.e careful - game play.

    While casters may say that shrine use is a good thing to replenish the blue bar, it too is something that can totally suck the challenge - the game play - out of a quest, especially at low levels. I personally have found it more interesting to run through a quest with nothing but Echoes of Power and spells that require less than 12 spell points. However not everyone would. Plus any spell over 5th tier costs more than Echoes will fuel. And higher level quests will necessarily require casters to keep up their blue bar, or become useless as casters.

    Some may say that the caster should then pull out a weapon and melee/range. Really? They are not dedicated melee-ers/range-ers. They are cast-ers. They cast magic. A dedicated wizard or sorcerer should pull out a weapon for last ditch self defense only. However if you "build" a character to be melee capable then good for you, don't complain about running out of magic.

    I suggest:

    Level 1-5 = no shrine use - Echoes of Power will keep you running
    Level 6-10 = 1 shrine use per quest for mana restoration only - caster needs to be nearly fully healed before use
    Level 11-15 = 2 shrine use per quest for mana restoration only - caster needs to be nearly fully healed before use
    Level 16-20 = no shrine use - by this time a dedicated caster should have SLA's and/or the ability to restore some magic

    This method does the same two important things as gear restriction
    - it limits magic
    - it doesn't limit choices


    In conjunction with shrines is HEALING.

    Should we only allow "found" healing potions (or any kind of potions), and they do not count towards the magic item limitations. We can trade found potions of healing amongst members, but we cannot purchase from vendors or AH.

    or

    Healing/cure items can be obtained from collectors provided you got the collectibles from questing. No collectibles (or rewards from collectibles) allowed from outside sources such as AH or alts.

    or

    Cure LIGHT wounds potions can be purchased as a "first aid" kit from potion vendors, and this is limited to 5 per character level, up to a maximum of 20 at level 4. Beginning at level 5 you can purchase cure MODERATE potions in addition, maximum 1 per character level up to level 10. After maxing out at 20 cure lights and 10 cure moderates (by L10).

    Should you happen to accumulate 400 favor for the Silver Flame, you may buy the potions they offer (200-400 pp each). This should help offset a party that is melee heavy without divines, by the time you get the favor you will be running higher level quests. The 30 second duration of the penalties involved with using these potions (-10 all ability scores and effective -9 to all saves, also 50% slow with the more potent version) is balance against over-use, especially during a fight.

    Should other potions be limited to
    - found and not bought?
    - amount carried?

    Finally, should Quest Difficulty choice be Normal, Hard or Elite:

    Normal difficulty - lessons learned - at level, makes trap damage minor, but also makes many enemies too easy to deal with. Low gear characters can manage with smart gameplay, barring undead or elementals which present real challenge. Consensus of many is that Normal is unchallenging in lowbie levels. However at higher levels with gear restriction Normal can become challenging.

    Hard difficulty - lessons learned - at 1 level below character traps hit harder, but require more emphasis from the trapper to achieve solutions, often to the detriment of the trapper being able to do anything else. Consensus of many is that Hard is not very challenging in lowbie levels but becomes challenging for mid levels, and in high levels would be challenging with gear restrictions.

    Elite difficulty - lessons learned - even on lowbie quests the dev's have stacked the deck as far as trap damage - one shot kills for those without serious BUFFS and or gear mitigation. Consensus of many is that Elite is challenging at level for most of lowbie levels, very challenging for mid levels and 1 or 2 levels below in high levels.

    The choice of Normal, Hard, Elite can be decided as the players advance in xp. The real factor in deciding will be the gear possessed and the abilities of the group as a whole. Trying to stick with a flat Normal only or Elite only will only cause more problems than they solve in the long run.

    Should -
    Character stats be "rolled" before character creation by another member of the group. 3d6 rolled 9 times - any number below 8 discarded and rerolled, the highest and lowest of the nine thrown out, the remaining 7 are picked from to allocate to stats.

    Should -
    Allowed races include everything f2p [not those puchasable - with the exception of unlockables Drow and FvS].

    or

    All allowed but purchasable races must be multiclassed to limit power.

    Should -
    Allowed classes include everything f2p [not those purchasable].

    Should -
    Multiclassing be allowed but with restrictions -

    Old school
    Non-humans can have up to 3 classes and must level up alternately between classes, with no more than 2 levels difference between classes. Not ideal power-wise, but stays within the spirit of PnP D&D. Humans [and thus human hybrids] can only dual class and must reach a minimum of 6 levels before changing classes, and that in reverse means if you are going to change classes you would have to do it by level 15 (for a 14/6 split). Once you change, you cannot change back. Maximum of 2 classes.

    or

    Generic to all races
    at least 6 levels deep for a 20 level build and classes must be within 2 levels of each other until that point.

    Any opinions on these? Please try to address each consideration and give some reason for it.

    These above topics are the main issues that came up again and again with both THACO and STORM. Trying to lock down a consistent set of rules that worked for more than 5 levels became a task of let's try this - no this - how about this. And of course every one has their own idea of what would be most "appropriate" i.e. comfortable.

    I cannot stress the following enough: playing this game, DDO, for the specific "feel" of old school PnP D&D requires playing it COMPLETELY DIFFERENTLY than normal play. Everyone who wishes to roll up a character and try their hand at it must embrace this concept. GEAR - MAGIC - DEATH - SHRINES, these are the things that HAVE to be changed in order to achieve that, otherwise you are just playing DDO with a static group. STORM will be, has to be, different than "just a static group".
    Last edited by zefjoe; 10-03-2013 at 08:24 PM.

  18. #18
    Community Member Varhann's Avatar
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    Default A lot to digest....

    Based on the responses so far and Zefjoe's excellent breakdown, I realize that my expectations of what Storm v2 can be are too limited. I blame this on my long standing DDO mindset clashing with my ADnD 2ed memories.

    So, I am attempting to come at this with a open mind and willing to try anything. Here are some thoughts on the breakdown.

    Death -
    I like the idea of losing an item to the gods on death. This seems to be a good compromise and reminds me of the old PnP rule of losing 1 point of Con every time your were raised/resurrected/reincarnated. I would also like to add that a death limit based on Con score should be considered. If you reach that limit during game play, you are gone for good. I still think that unless your shard is unrecoverable, you should not lose all your items and would be opposed to losing it all to your friends. While I don't relish the idea of sitting in the tavern recovering while everyone finishes, I can't really think of a better way to accommodate the death. I think that no xp should be garnered from the adventure unless you have made it to the end and die fighting in the last room. This is the one rule where I think some flexibility needs to be used. Maybe make it a majority rules vote on whether you get the xp or not based on your total contribution up to the point of death. I just don't have a simple answer.

    Magic Items -
    I like the idea of ML vs level system and would feel good using that. It offers enough choices and still limits. But I'd like to add that the ML per lvl be strict. You cannot go over the limit at all and if an item puts you over, you will have to discard an item to make space for the new item. Is this too harsh? What I'd like to avoid is players hoarding items in storage and possibly picking and choosing a item from his stockpile based on what quest we are running that play session.

    I like the idea of one item per slot max and the weapon/armor set max as suggested by Zefjoe. It covers the base idea that you cannot carry an arsenal with you. I also like the idea of the first tab backpack being all you can access with one addition. Casters will need to have more slots simply to carry casting ingredients. I would say that casting ingredients could be carried in the last tab to represent pouched ingredients and would not take up the first tab space.

    Shrines -
    I would like to see only 1 shrine per quest max from 1-20. This is more than generous. If Echoes of Power is being used, that is a major boon in itself and can carry most casters a long way. Since SLA's are even easier to get than before there should be no issue with caster blowing through all their SP to quickly. SP Conservation should still be in the casters mindset. I agree that shrine use should be tied with being fully healed. We could possibly make a rule that if you are missing more than 10% of your HPs, then the shrine is out.

    Healing -
    I like being able to keep and use found pots and would easily agree to that. Pots obtained from collectibles likewise. I would lower the limit to 10 max and make them sharable to other party members. If others agree that 10 is too little, I'm alright with 20 max. I highly disagree with buying pots of any type unless they are tied to favor. The ability to BYOH is anathema to PnP style play. It really trivializes a lot of the DDO experience and is an EASY Button crutch I prefer not to lean on in this type of group..

    Quest Difficulty -
    I want to see flexibility in this. Sometimes Hard will be to difficult and Elite impossible. Other times they will be fine.

    Character Stats -
    I'm ok with any method.

    Races/Class -
    I'm ok with any race or class except Artificer. From the style of play we intend, the Artificer would have issues anyway.

    Multiclassing -
    I'll let you guys duke this one out. Metagaming builds are not what I would like to see in this group, but I know many folks love being a multi.

    Cannith Crafting -
    None, nada, nunca, ect....

    Augments -
    If you can earn them, then you can use them. Add +1 to the ML of the item maybe?

    Looting -

    This was not on the list, but I think it needs to be addressed. I like the THACO rule on looting, but I think we can make adjustments to that.

    First, the only chests that will exist to us are Named creatures and End Bosses, unless the chest needs to be opened to get a quest furthering item. Upon finding the chest, everyone rolls 1d10. Anyone that rolls a 1 gets to open that chest. Loot should then be divided up based on party agreement. This represents the treasure pile that the whole group finds. In PnP, it was a rare treasure pile that contained something for everyone and I'd like to attempt to simulate that. It also make sure that everyone eventually get something based on party discussion.

    Quests rewards are never taken. Only guild xp.

    Chain End rewards can be discussed. I think that these are truly the reward for completing a campaign and should be allowed. They count towards your ML per level limit. No duplicates in the party allowed unless the item specifically states there are multiples of that item in existence.


    That is it for now. Please let me know what you think and don't pull any punches. I can take it.

  19. #19
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by zefjoe View Post

    I cannot stress the following enough: playing this game, DDO, for the specific "feel" of old school PnP D&D requires playing it COMPLETELY DIFFERENTLY than normal play. Everyone who wishes to roll up a character and try their hand at it must embrace this concept. GEAR - MAGIC - DEATH - SHRINES, these are the things that HAVE to be changed in order to achieve that, otherwise you are just playing DDO with a static group. STORM will be, has to be, different than "just a static group".


    I think most PnPers would argue the major differences between DDO and PnP are:

    1 - DM vs programming
    2 - PnP is turn based
    3- If your character dies before levels 7-9 you usually will have to roll up a new one.


    Can't do anything about #1. #2 is why Neverwinter (not NWO) and games like Temple of Elemental Evil feel more like PnP than DDO. And #3 is a big reason PD is a popular variant (which I'm in no way suggesting you implement).


    Most of the 'death penalties' are just not fun for players, which is why we always voted them down in Storm 1. As Fedora explained, no one wants to spend half of their play time 'dead' and not being able to contribute.


    As other potential players in this thread pointed out, destroying magic items in a low-magic campaign will get really old really quickly. Just think if we had done that in Storm 1? Vinnie would have had half the gear she did by level 7. Our trapper, the other halfling (sorry LeadHero, I can't remember her name :P), would have been lucky to have any trapping gear at all. The destroying gear penalty is also unfairly weighted against melee characters, since spell users don't lose any spells or spell points. Lose a power III helm? No big deal. Lose a +2 weapon (or +5 skill item for the trapper) much bigger deal.


    While no XPs or no treasure penalties for dying aren't as harsh, they are also very unlike PnP where players still receive some XPs for what they kill/find (up to the point where they died), and if they are resurrected, they usually get a share of the loot or reward.


    I've played with rules allowing looting fallen comrades, anywhere from one item to all items, and I think you'll find that the more cautious or more experienced players will eventually accumulate significantly more items than the less experienced/cautious players. The rogue/trapper/scout role, which seems to face death more frequently than other players, will soon find his best gear going to everyone else. Either way, in a low-magic campaign, you'll have a disparity between casters and non-casters and the front line characters vs. support or rear guard characters.


    Maybe whatever 'death penalty' you choose should be limited to applying only when your character cannot be raised in quest by another character? Dying would have much harsher consequences at low levels (like PnP), but not be as severe once your party can actually raise dead.

  20. #20
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Varhann View Post
    While I don't relish the idea of sitting in the tavern recovering while everyone finishes, I can't really think of a better way to accommodate the death. I think that no xp should be garnered from the adventure unless you have made it to the end and die fighting in the last room. This is the one rule where I think some flexibility needs to be used. Maybe make it a majority rules vote on whether you get the xp or not based on your total contribution up to the point of death. I just don't have a simple answer.

    I find these types of 'majority vote' rules almost always go in favor of the player who died since none of the survivors really wants to be the bad guy who says 'I don't think your character deserves the xp."


    Also, depending on how your DM ran the campaign, your character would usually get xps for monsters killed, traps disarmed/found, and magic items found. In PnP if your fighter kills half the quest monsters, dies, then gets resurrected at the end, he'd still have earned the xps for killing those monsters. In DDO it is either all or nothing since you can't give percentages of xp.

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